The Pivot

In this episode of The Pivot Podcast, Andrew sits down with James Martin—Jesuit priest, bestselling author, and editor-at-large at America Media—to talk about calling, career pivots, and learning to pray in the middle of uncertainty. Before joining the Jesuits, Father Jim worked in corporate finance after graduating from the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, but a growing restlessness, and the writings of Thomas Merton, led him to a radically different path. Together they explore discernment, suffering, spiritual dryness, and how ancient prayer practices can steady us during seasons of change.    Thought-Provoking Quotes:  “God not only wants you to make good decisions, good and healthy and life-giving and faithful decisions, but God will help you make those good decisions.” - Father James Martin “We say in the Jesuits: trust your heart, but use your head too, or trust your head and use your heart too.” - Father James Martin “I think many people believe that everyone else has an easier time praying than they do.” - Father James Martin “Imagine saying you’re friends with someone, but you never spend any time with them. Sometimes that’s how we treat our relationship with God.” - Father James Martin “Fame certainly doesn’t solve everything, right? It doesn’t solve your problems. And in fact, it can sometimes make them worse.” - Father James Martin “I really don’t think God sends us suffering to test us or to punish us. But I do think suffering is just part of the human condition.” - Father James Martin   Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Work in Progress by Father James MartinLearning to Pray by Father James MartinIn All Seasons, For All Reasons (Volume 1) by Father James Martin In All Seasons, For All Reasons (Volume 2) by Father James MartinGive Us This Day daily prayer and reflection resource *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!   *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.    Guest’s Links:  Father James Martin’s Facebook Father James Martin’s Instagram Father James Martin’s X   Connect with Andrew:  Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga   *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

In this episode of The Pivot, Andrew talks with Kelsey McGinnis—a musicologist, educator, and writer/editor for Christianity Today—about embracing life’s detours and letting go of the pressure to be perfect. Kelsey shares how she found her unexpected career by following her heart when her original plans fell apart, and how becoming a parent taught her to hold her goals loosely. She and Andrew dive into the messy reality of having multiple creative interests, exploring whether it’s better to focus on one thing or dabble in many, regardless of how others try to put you in a box. Finally, they discuss how to honestly critique parts of evangelical culture while keeping your faith and creativity intact, and the freedom that comes with choosing moderation over extremes. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “There were a number of years of just kind of, Well, whatever happens happens. And then after undergrad, things kind of went off the rails. I developed a pretty severe eating disorder. And in the process of my life blowing up, I decided, I am gonna go to grad school. I had no grand plan with all of this, I just knew this was something I loved to do.” - Kelsey McGinnis“I needed to be doing something that I loved that was helping take up more space in my brain than an eating disorder. Doing a PhD did it.” - Kelsey McGinnis “I started getting more of a vision for what a career could look like, got married, had kids, and that messes things up in all kinds of ways and makes you hold all your plans really loosely.” - Kelsey McGinnis“I was a little blindsided by how much I liked being a mom. I had not spent a lot of time thinking about what it would be like to be a parent. That experience as a graduate student sort of forced me to say, ‘I love what I’m doing, I would do this for the rest of my life, but I also love being a mom. So if there’s no way for me to do these things at the same time, that’s okay.’” - Kelsey McGinnis“When I read Christian parenting books, the framework that is used for everything is that any form of child resistance to what a parent wants to do is sin and rebellion. And I just remember thinking, I don’t think my one year old is manipulating me.” - Kelsey McGinnis “I keep learning that when I try to do something that’s not in the lane that other people think I’m in, that nobody knows what to do with that. There are a bunch of things I would have done differently in my career—I could have made the same art, made the projects differently—had I had a better understanding of how people view me.” - Andrew Osenga“I kept hopping between things, and there came to be a point where having a bit of skill in all those things became its own skill. And I’m just now starting to step into cases where the fact that I can do six things puts me in a different category than the guy who can do one thing really well.” - Andrew Osenga“Writing, for me, is a constant self-examination and self-questioning. I send things off to my editors with so many apologies.” - Kelsey McGinnis“If you have no other life, no other set of knowledge, you actually are kind of crippled. We are not meant to be siloed creatures, even in areas where you need to be an expert. Like, I don’t want a surgeon who’s not done their 10,000 hours, but you also want a surgeon who’s had a life outside that. I think that’s really helpful.” - Andrew Osenga “Christian women get all kinds of mixed messages about what our bodies are for, what our value is, what we’re supposed to be doing in our relationships and in our families. And so I’ve been looking at the different ways that faith language gets used to convince people that they need to do this or that with their body.” - Kelsey McGinnis“We’re really bad at moderation, humans in general. Everyone wants to do a cold plunge or eat a thousand grams of protein. Nothing is moderate, nothing is measured. I will stand by that diet culture as a phenomenon is destructive. But I can’t turn around and tell people their bodies don’t matter.” - Kelsey McGinnis“I want to spend a lot of time around quietly faithful people, actually be one of those quietly faithful people and take that version of lived faith more seriously than what I see online.” - Kelsey McGinnis“One trend of the past fifteen years that I find troubling is the discomfort with imperfection or roughness in any way. We want everything to be so smooth, so seamless. That’s my number one advice right now for people who are looking to engage with art, a sacred thing is being present for the creativity of another person and entering in if you can.” - Kelsey McGinnis Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Christianity TodayBelmont University“Good News” feat. Andrew Osenga and Josh WilsonBrandon LakeThe Myth of Good Christian Parenting by Marissa Franks Burt and Kelsey McGinnisRolling StoneShane ClaiborneHM MagazineUniversity of IowaCampus Crusade for Christ (Cru)AmeriCorpsRick WarrenDr. Oz*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Kelsey McGinnis’ websiteKelsey McGinnis’ FacebookKelsey McGinnis’ InstagramKelsey McGinnis’ XKelsey McGinnis’ YouTubeKelsey McGinnis’ Substack Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Miracles! Cancer! Kelly Clarkson! Floods! Family! Oh yeah, and a book, too! On this episode of The Pivot, we’re joined by married couple Jason (Kelly Clarkson’s music director and former member of Sonicflood) and Rhonda Halbert, who have been through way more than their fair share of trauma—including shifting careers, three separate cancer diagnoses, a destroyed home, and loss after loss—and how they have used their creative outlets to process their experiences. They share what happens when you learn to let go and why it’s okay to ask big questions as you wade through complicated feelings.  Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Jason and Rhonda have been through trauma after trauma after trauma and yet when you talk to them, they are just so full of life and joy.” - Andrew Osenga“The touring industry is not made for families, so we found ourselves maybe four years into our marriage having completely grown apart. And Rhonda was going to leave, she was done.” - Jason Halbert“It’s a consistent theme for us: go passionately into something and then it fails spectacularly. You can believe with all your heart either God has led you or you’re following something you feel is right, and then it falls apart and you’re like, Where did I mess up?” - Jason Halbert“[I did not want to] make money off the church, and I can trace those steps all the way to Kelly Clarkson and now a 22-year career with her, which is unheard of. None of this would’ve happened if we had fought to hold onto Sonicflood, all that came from letting go of it.” - Jason Halbert“You would think that having experienced your precious thing and letting go of it, you’d think; Wow, look what came out of that… you would think as humans, we would get good at doing that. But every single time that happens, it’s like the first time it’s ever happened.” - Jason Halbert“Sometimes, hanging on to something too long chokes the life out of you, and that’s why you have to learn to let go.” - Rhonda Halbert“Miracles happen in multiple ways, we just have to be willing to see them and we have to be willing to walk through the hard journey to get to the other side, whatever that looks like.” - Rhonda Halbert“You have to hang on to whatever God is saying, doing, promising, giving. You’ve got to pursue Him in the hardest, longest, depleting of your life journey to get to the end, because it’s on the other side where you start to say, ‘God is moving and God is doing something miraculous.’” - Rhonda Halbert“Human nature is just to come back around to doubt, it’s just how we’re wired. I hit rock bottom, there were a few days when I woke up and I was so angry at God that I was like, ‘Why’d you have to wake me up today?’” - Rhonda Halbert“We’re still in the thick of our trauma. We’re not completely out. We didn’t come out of the story going, ‘See, you can do it too!’ We’re in the middle of it and we’re still struggling, but we’re working it out as we’re continuing to walk forward.” - Rhonda Halbert“Our faith is stronger than ever, but the questions we’re asking about it are bigger than ever. Everything’s layered and threaded.” - Jason Halbert Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Kelly ClarksonDC TalkSonicfloodBrownsville RevivalCaretaker by Jason & Rhonda HalbertLost Amy GrantBelmont UniversitySparrow RecordsSteven Curtis ChapmanTwila ParisTrue Artist Management Michael W. SmithBackstreet BoysBlessed Be Your Name by Matt RedmanHere I Am to Worship by Tim HughesVanderbilt Children’s HospitalJustin GuariniAmerican IdolStage Wives organization Dave RamseyThe Kelly Clarkson Show Tiger KingColbie CalliatThe Chosen NashvilleOuter Banks *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Jason & Rhonda’s websiteJason & Rhonda’s FacebookJason’s InstagramJason’s X Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Fred Bahnson is a writer, essayist, and ordained minister whose work explores the intersection of faith, nature, and community. In this profound and far-ranging conversation, Fred and Andrew discuss the adventurous spirit of Thomas Merton, wrestling with the notion of original sin, and finding an “embodied experience” of faith rooted in the natural world. Fred shares how his work—from his book Soil and Sacrament to his recent films and essays for Emergence Magazine—is an effort to present a vision of Christian faith that challenges common stereotypes, focusing instead on the larger story of what God is doing and how we live as people of faith. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “[Thomas Merton] had this real adventuresome spirit that I really resonate with. And that’s very much how I conceive of my own faith journey, is it’s this unfolding adventure.” - Fred Bahnson“So much of what you’re wrestling with are things that I’m wrestling with. Even deep, theological ideas of, What is your faith?” - Andrew Osenga“The theology that I grew up with, at least as I received it, was all about original sin and sort of, ‘You are stained to the core. You are rotten to the core of your being.’ And it never really resonated, it just didn’t ring true to me. I knew I was sinful, but I kept thinking, If we’re created in the image of God, how can that be true that we’re also rotten to the core?” - Fred Bahnson“I think [boarding school] was where I had an early imitation of God’s presence, that sense of, Okay, I’m on my own. I had to learn how to become self-sufficient and a lot of that was learning to pray, just kind of crying out in pain to God and feeling the love come back at me.” - Fred Bahnson“I didn’t have this ‘calling’ to be a pastor, it was more just wanting to understand this faith that had shaped me and that I sort of couldn’t get away from.” - Fred Bahnson“I learned about other faith communities who were starting farms and growing their own food and reconnecting with the land, but in a very faith-focused way. And I was really fascinated by that whole growing movement.” - Fred Bahnson“This is where language doesn’t really get at our experience. I’ve sought all my life to get beyond the isms and get to the pure drop, the direct experience. That’s a lot of what I do as a writer, just place the reader there with me in the moment. To me, that is so much more powerful than ideas or argument or diatribe.” - Fred Bahnson “We’re nature looking back at itself. The environment is constantly moving in and out of us. We are nature and there’s no dividing line.” - Fred Bahnson“The faith I’m drawn to is very much an embodied experience. You’re doing things, you’re smelling things, you’re watching and hearing and all of your senses are engaged. I think that’s the faith we need if we’re going to have any chance of surviving.” - Fred Bahnson“It’s a writerly urge to use your own story as a window through which the reader can look onto some larger vista behind. Ultimately, you want to be the clear pane of glass that the reader looks through. You’re not. You’re not the final destination of the reader’s gaze. If at the end of the day, the story is just about what happened to Fred Bahnson, then I failed. It’s about the larger story you’re trying to tell.” - Fred Bahnson “I want to present a vision of the faith that maybe challenges some stereotypes of what a Christian is. For me, that larger story is almost always about what God is doing in our lives and how we live as people of faith.” - Fred Bahnson  Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Thomas Merton“On the Road with Thomas Merton” by Fred Bahnson, film by Jeremy SiefertWilbur AwardsThe Live You Save May Be Your Own by Paul ElieThe Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas MertonBoris PasternakJames Baldwin Monastery of Christ in the Desert Redwoods Monastery Annie DillardCity Lights Bookstore (San Francisco)Laurence FerlinghettiEmergence Magazine Jeremy SiefertMontana State University Duke Divinity School Wendell Berry Sex, Economy, Freedom, and Community by Wendell BerrySoil and Sacrament by Fred BahnsonAnathoth Community Garden (North Carolina) Orion Magazine Michael PollanW.K. Kellogg Foundation Wake Forest University School of DivinityHannah Coulter by Wendell BerryJayber Crow by Wendell BerryBarry LopezThe Wisdom of the Desert by Thomas Merton The Art of Prayer: An Orthodox Anthology compiled by Igumen Chariton of Valamo “Guardians of Memory” by Fred Bahnson (Harper’s Magazine) The Forest Beyond film by Jeremy Siefert and Fred BahnsonThe Church Forests of Ethiopia film by Jeremy Siefert Thoughts In Solitude by Thomas Merton Seeds of Contemplation by Thomas Merton  *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Fred Bahnson’s website Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

In this week’s episode, we sit down with Matt Markins, president and COO of Awana, a global organization dedicated to guiding children toward a meaningful life through mentorship and community partnership. Matt shares the poignant childhood experiences—including the day his father left—that set him on a path defined by the powerful influence of caring mentors. He discusses how those early connections shaped his deep-seated passion for helping kids discover lasting values and a strong inner compass. Matt offers practical ways for adults to foster deep, meaningful connections with the next generation, underscoring the critical role of intentional presence and open dialogue in a world where anxiety and isolation feel increasingly universal. He shares his vision for a global community built on shared positive principles, where compassionate guidance helps young people navigate the “counterfeit narratives” of modern life to find authentic peace and connection. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “My earliest memory is the day that my dad walked out on our family. In the days, weeks, months after that, my mom finds her way to a local church. I’m probably four years old and I remember this moment with great crystal clarity something in my heart saying, ‘I want this. This is better.’ That was the moment I took my first step of faith and trusted Jesus as Savior.” - Matt Markins“It is funny how God can direct your steps, sometimes in very crooked paths, but somehow He straightens it out.” - Matt Markins “We have pivots, right, chapters that come to an end. I literally picked up a phone and called somebody I knew, David, and said ‘Hey, do you think Awana could ever use me?’ And David got up from that call and went to the president’s desk and booked a meeting, and the rest is history.” - Matt Markins“Discipleship is relational. No matter how much we try to AI discipleship, human-on-human interaction and mentoring and coaching and consulting… if we don’t control the calendar, the calendar will control you.” - Matt Markins“Start putting blocks of time way out in advance on [your] calendar. You have to buy the real estate of your time well in advance. Then when you begin to approach it, you can say, ‘Oh year, I want to use my time differently. What is it that I need to build into that space?’” - Matt Markins“The cultural gap between us as global citizens is really narrowing. When it comes to anxiety or depression or isolation, we’re all kind of at a similar spot.” - Matt Markins“Kids need adults around them that have God on their heart, that are open to being redeemed and shaped by God.” - Matt Markins“If I can talk to my kids about ballet, about the latest pop artists, about what’s happening in their school, and that’s natural for me, then I have built the infrastructure. The conduit is in place for me to do discipleship. The number one thing we need in our homes is dialog.” - Matt Markins“There’s all kinds of things in life that are holding us captive. We’re allowing our hearts to be open for something else to come in and that something else is counterfeit. There are counterfeit narratives coming at our children, at you and me, and we let them sink into our story, into our minds, into our hearts.” - Matt Markins“Christianity is good, but the danger is to say that secular culture is bad and to say, ‘But there’s no problems in our culture.’ Christian culture has all kinds of problems because there’s sin inside of us.” - Matt Markins“All the heroes of the faith were pretty jacked up people. It’s because of grace that we’re saved, because of grace that God can change us sometimes in a moment, sometimes in a lifetime.” - Matt Markins“Peace is available to me because of Jesus. So I am really working on how to be cognizant of that, how to spiritually be sitting in God’s presence and be connected to that, but also how to make sure that my life is wired to where I can set aside time to cultivate that even more.” - Matt Markins Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:AwanaMikhail Gorbachev Oprah Winfrey Young LifeAnchor HymnsSamford University Inside OutWelch CollegeJohn Mark ComerPastor Mark SayersThe Hunger GamesEmotionally Healthy Discipleship by Peter ScazzaroImmanuel NashvilleThe Story We Tell Our Children by Matt Markins *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Matt Markins’ websiteMatt Markins’ FacebookMatt Markins’ InstagramMatt Markins’ XMatt Markins’ YouTube Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

In this week’s episode, Andrew Osenga sits down with friend and musician Josh Wilson to discuss his journey of personal and professional change. Josh shares why his answer to “What have you changed your mind about and why?” is profoundly different now than it would have been four years ago. He opens up about his past struggles with alcohol addiction and anxiety, and how his decision to speak publicly about these experiences became a significant pivot in his life and career. Discover how embracing vulnerability and seeking help transformed his songwriting and approach to his artistry, leading to his latest album, “Mental Help.” Thought-Provoking Quotes: “When I started drinking, I drank in moderation. It wasn’t a problem for a number of years. But when it became a problem, I was drinking to turn down those questions, to turn down the volume on the anxiety and sort of the existential hum that was always there. I didn’t realize this until I quit, because when I quit they came back.” - Josh Wilson“I realized it’s just more fun to be honest and tell the truth in my songwriting and in my own personal life with friends and family. It’s not that I air all my dirty laundry. I’m the Venn diagram of who people think I am and who I actually am. I’m trying to close that as much as possible in an appropriate way.” - Josh Wilson“I hope when someone hears me talk about these things honestly—anxiety, depression, and addiction—I hope it’s disarming in the sense that if someone hears it, whether in conversation or in a song, they think, Okay, yeah, it's normal to deal with these kinds of things.” - Josh Wilson“I’ve released so many songs that I’ve already said so many things about subject A, B, and C. It’s like, Well, I could write another song, or I could try and dig even deeper and find something that makes me a little bit uncomfortable to talk about and hopefully makes people lean in, like, God’s not mad at you. I want to hear that.” - Josh Wilson“I had a mental breakdown in 2022, and thankfully I’m so much better. Now I’m to the point where I have the mental capacity. I’m sort of rebuilding it all and picking up where I left off back in 2019, and taking multiple instruments out. I want to connect on a human level with people.” - Josh Wilson Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Radnor Lake State ParkThe Painted Desert album by Andrew OsengaMental Help album by Josh Wilson“Jesus and Therapy” song by Josh Wilson“God’s Not Mad at You” song by Josh WilsonJubilee YouTube channelThe Russell Moore ShowPhil KeaggyEd SheeranJason Gray*Watch this interview on the YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Josh Wilson’s websiteJosh Wilson’ InstagramJosh Wilson’s FacebookJosh Wilson’s YouTubeJosh Wilson’s TikTokJosh Wilson’s X Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

This week on The Pivot, we had a heartfelt conversation with Robert and Lori Crosby as they shared the vital work of their Reach Hurting Kids Institute. They opened up about what it truly means to apply a trauma-informed lens to ministry, explaining how shifting our perspective is key. Instead of seeing trauma-related behaviors as something to be taken personally, they teach us to see them as opportunities—chances to uncover deeper feelings and support a child’s path toward healing. Robert, with his researcher’s insight, and Lori, with her therapist’s heart, emphasize the power of a relational approach over a rigid, behavior-focused one. They talked about the beauty of flexible planning—the need to “pivot” to meet a specific child’s needs—and, most importantly, the profound importance of ensuring every single child genuinely knows and feels their inherent worth. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “It’s always amazing when you meet people who work in areas that are so heavy, and yet carry themselves so lightly. The area of children’s trauma, that’s as heavy as it gets, and yet [Robert and Lori] carry this joy with them.” - Andrew Osenga“I had the chance to start doing research in the realm of children’s ministry, to research trauma as it intersects with ministry. And pretty quickly I realized this is something I’m really passionate about, and this is a place where the church can have a huge, huge impact.” - Robert Crosby“Some of the clients I was working with were getting kicked out of churches because of trauma-related behaviors. And children kind of interpret that as they’re not good enough to be in the presence of God, which broke my heart.” - Lori Crosby“A trauma-informed ministry leader recognizes the signs and symptoms of trauma. So if a child is hiding under a desk or they’re dysregulated and screaming, the leader doesn’t personalize the child’s emotional dysregulation, but walks alongside them, shows up, sits with them until the child is regulated, and then can help them heal from whatever they’re going through—help them feel safe, feel connected, feel valued.” - Lori Crosby“What is the underlying feeling? How can I minister to that? How can I help them be okay so they can participate and engage and feel part of a community and feel loved, so that the church can be part of that child’s healing process?” - Robert Crosby“You can share God’s love more powerfully by sitting down next to a hurting child and just having a conversation, just checking in with them while you’re building with Legos, maybe sharing a meal. Just showing them Jesus through genuine connection, really being interested in their lives and being curious and open and being present. That speaks so deeply to all of us, I think.” - Lori Crosby“There’s often a disconnect between what we have planned and what a child actually needs. We have to have the freedom to say, ‘Okay, I’m prepared, but we’ve got to pivot and adapt so we can minister to them.’” - Robert Crosby“There’s a correlation between the way a child understands and experiences the church and the way they understand and experience God. We’re a proxy for God in that way.” - Robert Crosby“Relationships are the foundation of this entire approach. It’s getting to know the kids and building rapport and letting them know they’re loved and accepted and unconditionally cared for. This is what’s transformative.” - Robert Crosby“I think sometimes we over spiritualize things. If you have someone struggling with anxiety or depression, and we [share] scripture verses, there’s so much baggage that a child’s bringing in. So if a child has experiences or is still currently under threat, and we’re trying to pray it away or theologically correct their behaviors which are protecting them from harm, that’s not helpful at all.” - Robert Crosby“‘God’s not gonna give you more than you can handle’ is one of the most common misquoted scriptures that just does unfathomable harm to somebody who’s in the midst of trauma.” - Lori Crosby“Maybe the pivot, the shift, is that miracles can happen instantly, but sometimes the miracle is the very long, painful journey we walk.” - Lori Crosby“Just being present in the pain is what is the most helpful, because you don’t get to do or say anything that takes away somebody’s pain. We desperately want to, but the best thing to do is just sit in silence and be a loving presence who listens.” - Lori Crosby Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Trauma-Informed Children’s Ministry by Robert and Lori CrosbyReach Hurting Kids InstituteLos Angeles County Office of EducationPromise KeepersTortured for Christ by Richard WurmbrandB.F. SkinnerChurch of the NazareneTrail Life USA Dollywood *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Reach Hurting Kids websiteRobert and Lori’s FacebookRobert and Lori’s Instagram Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Creator of the beloved series VeggieTales Phil Vischer, whose influence impacted generations of children, joins The Pivot to talk about what happens when you build something incredible, only to watch it fall apart. Phil opens up about what to do when you discover that you’re not as important as you think you are, how to let God save you from your own ambition, and how to cope with devastating failure in order to turn around and build the life you were meant for—free from what others might think.  Thought-Provoking Quotes: “All I wanted to do was make films and I wanted to be one of the good guys. And then I thought, Well, maybe I’m more than just a good guy who makes films. Maybe I’m like the next Walt Disney.” - Phil Vischer“I don’t like leading people. Which is a bad thing to discover after you’ve hired a whole bunch of people. So my management style tended to be, find the most competent person who liked to be in charge and make them in charge of all the people.” - Phil Vischer“You make a huge mistake when you decide that God needs you. Bad things happen.” - Phil Vischer“[I felt like] I wasn’t doing big things for God if I was curtailing my ambition, not expanding it. I had such a view of evangelical workaholism.” - Phil Vischer“The model I grew up with was if you’re enjoying life, you’re not trying hard enough. If you’re happy, you’re not doing it right. And finally, God got tired of watching me be that way.” - Phil Vischer“I wrote 80% of every line that came out of a vegetable’s mouth for ten years. So you become somewhat personally attached to the characters you’ve created and are bringing to life with your writing. And then, someone says ‘We don’t need you to write them anymore.’” - Phil Vischer“I realized that God was saving me from my ambition, that I was pushing a rock up a hill that He never asked me to push.” - Phil Vischer“What’s your life’s work going to look like? Who’s the model for your life’s work? We pick almost every model in the world except Jesus.” - Phil Vischer“We always talk about our successes in the church. We never talk about our failures.” - Phil Vischer“We’re trying to help a generation stay connected to their faith. To throw out the bathwater, but hang on to baby Jesus.” - Phil Vischer“I think a lot of people that have gone through what Phil has gone through could be bitter and angry, and I’m sure he had his moments. But I don’t get that from him now. I get a lot of wisdom and compassion and definitely curiosity and a sense of ‘What’s next?’” - Andrew Osenga Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:VeggieTalesThe Holy PostWalt DisneyExperiencing God by Henry BlackabyBiola UniversityBilly GrahamDisneylandWillow Creek Community ChurchChristianity TodayMoody PublishersSkye JethaniK-LoveJars of ClaySixpence None the Richer U2Wheaton College RadioSwitchfootThe Ed Sullivan ShowLarry NormanRandy StonehillKeith GreenAngel StudiosJohn IrwinMike NawrockiThe Dead Sea SquirrelsThe Toy That Saved ChristmasBlenderThe Apple Dumpling GangTime BanditsCoen BrothersWes AndersonO Brother, Where Art Thou?The Hudsucker ProxySlumdog Millionaire *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Phil Vischer’s websitePhil Vischer’s FacebookPhil Vischer’s InstagramPhil Vischer’s XPhil Vischer’s YouTube Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

This episode with Ashley Cleveland came out in January 2018—the first time Andrew ever met Ashley. This interview had such a profound impact on Andrew that he’s referenced it again and again throughout the years, and we wanted to re-share it with you as we look to a New Year.  Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I quickly became an alcoholic and a drug addict, but I also became a musician. I started getting a positive response, whereas everything prior had been pretty negative. So I look upon it as this marker that God gave me to keep me on the planet.” - Ashley Cleveland“I knew less than anything about the industry. But a divide had been crossed, and suddenly I’m a songwriter. I dropped out of school after a couple of years and I went back to California and that’s really where I learned to be an artist. I cut my teeth in clubs.” - Ashley Cleveland“I wound up pregnant, very ill with my addiction, so I turned to the church. And I have to say the church responded deeply and wonderfully.” - Ashley Cleveland “I couldn’t even cope with myself, let alone a child. And yet once I heard that heartbeat, I knew it was gonna be beyond me to give her up. Suddenly, there was someone else, and that was really the beginning of faith for me.” - Ashley Cleveland“I left that hospital knowing that there was a God and He loved me, though I had no earthly idea why.” - Ashley Cleveland“You take the art wherever you go. I’m so glad I had a career with a small C because what that meant for me in practical terms was I was home.” - Ashley Cleveland“For me, the best way to live is with my hands wide open and say, ‘Lord, you are the most surprising thing in my life.’” - Ashley Cleveland“I’m so thankful to be alive. Everything else is gravy.” - Ashley Cleveland Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Anchor HymnsSally Lloyd-JonesNeil YoungUniversity of TennesseePam TillisJohn HiattNACA (National Association of Campus Activities)Michael W. SmithSteven Curtis ChapmanRich MullinsTwenty Feet From StardomC.S. Lewis *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Ashley Cleveland’s InstagramAshley Cleveland’s Facebook Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Join Andrew for a really special end-of-the-year episode as he opens up about the creative work he put out in 2025. He shares some honest reflections about what he learned this year, what didn’t quite work out, and what he’s hoping to carry with him as we step into the new year. We’re talking about how to truly learn from those inevitable failures, seeing them as a chance to redesign the life we want, and the difficult but necessary process of letting things go. And, perhaps most importantly, he’s sharing why carving out space for both rest and community is so critical, especially when they’re the first things that tend to get sacrificed when life gets hectic. Here’s to another year of growing, changing, and simply being humans who make things. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “The truth is I made a lot of things for a long time that had no way to come out, and then they just sort of stacked up, and I was finally like, I’ve got to get this stuff out. I’ve got to just get these piles off the desk so I can do something else. And now I get the chance to start afresh.” - Andrew Osenga“We learn from our failures.” - Andrew Osenga“I love making music, but I also love having conversations and talking about ideas and just getting to talk to some of the most fascinating, incredible people.” - Andrew Osenga“When I tell you the people we have lined up to talk to next year, I literally cannot believe it. Some of my absolute heroes, authors and artists, people that I could not believe said yes. I am so excited and nervous. It’s going to be so fun.” - Andrew Osenga“Alison, my wife, is dealing with cancer, and that’s a long, long, long journey. It’s still really hard. She’s doing a little bit better than a year ago, and we’re really grateful for that. I thank you so much for your prayers.” - Andrew Osenga“I need to find some things I can let go of. I hear other people’s stories, and what you find over and over and over is that community is so important and rest is so important. And when we get busy and spin too many plates, the things that immediately disappear are community and rest.” - Andrew Osenga“We isolate and we ignore the Sabbath and we work, work, work by ourselves. That’s what I do. And all of the sudden, I start to think that I’m the reason everything is working or not working, I can do it all by myself, everything hinges on me, and it doesn’t. I start trusting in myself and not God. I’m leaning on myself and not those around me.” - Andrew Osenga“This is a good time of year where you just have to pause a little bit and you get a chance to rethink, look at your schedule, look at your priorities, look at the things you’re planning on doing, and say, ‘What can I stop? How can I reschedule my time?’” - Andrew Osenga Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Amen. 30 Days of Prayers from the Headwaters by Andrew OsengaAnchor HymnsSandra McCrackenCharlie PeacockSamford University  *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Lead singer of The New Respects and author Jasmine Mullen joins The Pivot for a walk down memory lane, revisiting a beautiful childhood, the band members who turned into family, and a unique form of childhood rebellion: playwriting (and yes, they talk about her adorable play about how the star of Bethlehem was chosen). Jasmine and Andrew reminisce about their younger selves, when Andrew was first working at a record company and met Jasmine, when neither of them knew what they were doing. Jasmine opens up about the strong bonds that have shaped her life and career, and made her into who she is today.  Thought-Provoking Quotes: “All my childhood years were in this house. It’s my favorite place in the world. It’s so beautiful, it’s in the middle of nowhere. Last night when I was driving here there was a cow in the middle of the road. It’s kind of chaotic, but it’s really sweet.” - Jasmine Mullen “Whenever I think of my mom, like in the fullness of herself, I think about her riding. There’s a huge hill in the backyard. She would ride down that hill on her horse bareback, and she was so cool.” - Jasmine Mullen“Growing up, there’s a house on the hill to the right, and my mom’s mom and her dad lived in that house. Then my dad’s parents lived right across the street. And it was just so awesome, they were the best ever. God set me up so well with grandparents who are like storybook grandparents. I look back and I’m just like, ‘Lord, what a gift, what a blessing to have that kind of support that close.’” - Jasmine Mullen“Darius Fitzgerald, Zandy Mowry, and I are family friends. We were raised together, kind of like family.” - Jasmine Mullen“The word ‘friend’ was heavier to me than the word ‘family’ because it was something that you choose, and family just happens to you. Friendship is something that you can build on.” - Jasmine Mullen“I was always super rebellious about not wanting to be in music because both of my parents are in music. So my form of rebellion was, ‘I’m going to write plays.’” - Jasmine Mullen Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:The New Respects bandBen Washington Is the Newbie on the Block by Jasmine MullenBen Washington Is the Odd Man Out by Jasmine MullenAnchor HymnsBrooke FraserCarly Bannister“God of This City” by Chris TomlinTyler Perry *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Jasmine Mullen’s websiteJasmine Mullen’s FacebookJasmine Mullen’s InstagramJasmine Mullen’s X  Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Writer and speaker Liuan Huska joins this episode of The Pivot to share her studies on anthropology and her venture into journalism, as well as her book on reconciling chronic pain and illness with faith. Liuan shares about her family’s year-long travels through South America, her work with Christian conservation organization A Rocha, and reflects on how to find wholeness in the middle of life’s challenges. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I just got more and more concerned about environmental issues, just being a human in this world today and noticing things and being sad about pollution and the way that humans have impacted creation in a negative way.” - Liuan Huska“I had this image of God where He has to act in this certain way for me to maintain a relationship with Him. I had to let go of my images of who God is and what God does in the world.” - Liuan Huska“If we pray and it matters to God, but it doesn’t actually make the tangible difference we thought it was going to make, then what difference does it make to engage with God and continue this personal relationship where we expect God to respond?” - Liuan Huska “We have the ability to make a life for ourselves in different places and we can figure things out. You can go anywhere and really plug in and find community.” - Liuan Huska “It has sometimes just hurt my heart to see that caring for the earth sometimes seems to be treated like an enemy of the church politically sometimes. We are called so clearly in the Scripture to care for the world, to care for the earth. And you look around you and think, This is a gift from God, why would we not want to steward it well?” - Andrew Osenga  Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Hurting Yet Whole by Liuan HuskaA Rocha InternationalLiuan Huska’s Substack, Becoming Whole University of ChicagoChristianity TodayU.S. Environmental Protection AgencyDisappointment with God by Philip YanceyParker PalmerMy South American Classroom by Liuan Huska Catherine McNielEugene Peterson Behold the Lamb of God 2025   *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Liuan Huska’s websiteLiuan Huska’s FacebookLiuan Huska’s Instagram  Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

On this episode of The Pivot, we’re joined by Beth Felker Jones, writer and professor of theology at Northern Seminary, and the mastermind behind the Church Blogmatics Substack, where she explores theological themes through storytelling. Beth shares about her journey to becoming a professor, her approach to teaching topics like sexuality to her students and what she’s learned by listening to their stories, and her perspective on the personal nature of our relationship with God.  Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I remember quite early in my life wishing I had a cool, dramatic conversion story. I knew that was a thing Christians had and that they were beautiful to tell, and I didn’t have one. I think it took me a while to grow up in the truth, and that’s okay.” - Beth Felker Jones“While dramatic conversion stories are really beautiful, so is the way God draws us near in quiet and domestic settings. It doesn’t have to be fireworks for God to be at work. It’s the same God.” - Beth Felker Jones “Family is maybe the number one form of evangelism.” - Andrew Osenga“I love how stories draw us in, and I think that Scripture is primarily a story, a true story. God is at work in love for the world, and Scripture invites us to live in that story and to imagine our lives through that story.” - Beth Felker Jones“We learn from [stories]. We learn to consider the lives of others, and we learn about love and grace and the way sin works in the world.” - Beth Felker Jones“I think a lot of people walk out the door of the church because they’ve heard songs that tell them that God is one thing that He’s not, or that doesn’t give space for their suffering or doubt.” - Andrew Osenga “I learn from my students here. They tell me beautiful stories about falling to the bottom, about their lives falling apart, about a deep hurt that they never thought would come, and about how God has been with them and uses them to bear witness through those troubles.” - Beth Felker Jones“I suspect that every culture has its inherent beauties and its characteristic tendencies to sin. We can claim the beauties and fight the sin. But culture by itself isn’t just this big, bad thing. Often, it’s beautiful. God loves people and the world and art and thought and all the things that make up culture. God doesn’t throw those out, God redeems them.” - Beth Felker Jones “I don’t think it’s an accident that the Bible uses marriage, human marriage, as a metaphor for our relationship with God. It’s not the only metaphor, but there are some real ways in which we can learn about one from the other.” - Beth Felker Jones“I am not of the school which thinks the point of theology is to logically prove all things and line everything up in neat rows. I think theology is more like a poem in that we’re using a really beautiful thing, language, to point to something beyond God, who cannot be fully captured in our language, but who nonetheless has chosen words to communicate with us.” - Beth Felker Jones Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Why I Am Protestant by Beth Felker JonesChurch Blogmatics Substack (Check out Andrew’s guest appearance on Beth’s Substack in December!) Northern SeminaryKirk CameronC.S. LewisPsalmsG.K. ChestertonPope Gregory I (Gregory the Great) *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Beth Felker Jones’ websiteBeth Felker Jones’ FacebookBeth Felker Jones’ XBeth Felker Jones’ Instagram  Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Pastor and author Claude Atcho joins The Pivot to discuss the challenging transition from a large, established church to a smaller, new gathering. He explains how this move required him to shed the role of a seasoned veteran and embrace starting over as a newbie. Claude shares insights into the difficulties of driving significant change for one’s family, especially when the decision seems counterintuitive on paper, and offers advice on prioritizing learning and growth over the comfort of established competence. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I remember as a kid really enjoying going to the library, just enjoying the fact that people are creative and they’ve taken the time to capture stories, write them down, or tell somebody else’s story.” - Claude Atcho “Books mark different transitions in my life.” - Claude Atcho “Growing up, I loved sports, and came to the realization that most young boys have; Oh, being a pro athlete is probably not in the cards for me. And what does that mean? How do I experience that transition of my future, this taste of realism? How do I find my place in things?” - Claude Atcho “I wanted to write [my book] for Christians who wanted to think about both literature and how literature can form us and how story matters and can form us, particularly when we put stories in conversation with a story of the kingdom.” - Claude Atcho “There’s something unique about story and language and it can do something in us that sometimes other things can’t do.” - Claude Atcho“I think I can use competence as a shield to protect myself from feeling out of control or vulnerable. Starting as a learner, I had to be present to everything in a new way, and I think that was good for me. I’m still learning to do that.” - Claude Atcho “Major transitions happen in people’s lives all the time, I think I was just not aware of that. I feel like, Oh, I’ll do this forever. No I won’t. I hope to have a good long run wherever I go, but this is happening all the time.” - Claude Atcho“Rhythms of relationship with Jesus are a way to remind ourselves that this is not a place to be ultimately comfortable, but that we find comfort with Him.” - Andrew Osenga Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Reading Black Books by Claude Atcho Rhythms of Faith by Claude Atcho The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde Chicago BullsSeattle MarinersDr. Henry CloudD. Michael Lindsay*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Claude Atcho’s websiteClaude Atcho’s XClaude Atcho’s Instagram Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

On this episode of The Pivot, we’re joined by Andrew Torrance, Professor of Theology and Co-Director of the Logos Institute for Analytic and Exegetical Theology. Andrew shares about his work with the Scientists in Congregations program that opens up avenues for conversations between faith and scientific communities to learn how they can work together for a better understanding of the world and of our place in it.  Thought-Provoking Quotes: “[Science] is not a threat to faith, but it’s something that can really be an important part of the life of the church.” - Andrew Torrance“There’s ways in which science actually exposes the many mysteries that confront the human understanding rather than resolving all of them.” - Andrew Torrance “What does it mean to be a human that’s been created in the image of God? What are the ways in which human beings are unique in the world?” - Andrew Torrance“I just love the outdoors. I think that’s what really attracted me towards science, just really trying to understand the natural world in which we find ourselves.” - Andrew Torrance “How do we think about the relationship between the brain and understanding? Are these two things distinct from one another? There are a lot of psychologists today that want to say we’re purely physical beings, and there’s some that want to recognize that our brain is accompanied by a mind. Human consciousness and our understanding isn’t reducible to the physical brain processes. There’s unique qualities that distinguish the two.” - Andrew Torrance Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:St. Andrews University Joe RoganScientists in Congregations Søren KierkegaardKarl Barth*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links:Andrew’s St. Andrews University page Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

In this powerful episode of The Pivot, Andrew sits down with fellow Christian musician and songwriter Ross King. In this interview (recorded before he lost his wife Staci to cancer), Ross shares how significant traumas—including his father’s drowning and his wife’s cancer diagnosis—have profoundly changed his loyalties to his own mindset. He discusses the nuanced process of grief, not just for what is lost, but for “the life we wanted,” and the challenging honesty of songwriting through profound suffering. This candid discussion explores how unexpected challenges can lead to difficult but ultimately redemptive personal adjustments, fostering deeper relationships and a re-evaluation of faith. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “We are both married to cancer patients. Both of our wives have aggressive, advanced cancer. I don’t share a lot about that, we’ve needed to kind of keep it in our house, but it’s been encouraging for me to watch you wrestle with it publicly. Cancer changes everything.” - Andrew Osenga“Yeah, I think cancer is afraid of God. But right now, it doesn’t seem like that’s causing any difference in what we’re going through. For me, it was returning to; I really want to be close to God. That’s something I would have said as a kid, but then I probably got too cool to say that. And now I want to say it again, because I really kind of miss that guy.” - Ross King“I really want closeness to God, but I’m telling you, I’m way too weak and fragile and broken and scared to beg for that, whatever it takes.” - Ross King“I have this theory that heavily traumatizing things do one of two things to a person’s soul, spirit, psyche. And those two things are on a spectrum, they’re not black and white, but on the two ends of the spectrum are, I will never let that happen to me ever again. I’ll do whatever it takes to make sure that doesn’t happen to me ever. And this is on the other side, for those who are listening and not seeing on the other end is, Oh, this is why people are so crazy and wounded. I have empathy.” - Ross King“We, in addition to grieving the actual thing that’s happening, we have to grieve the death of the life we wanted. Because it’s a real thing. And no one knows how to help us with that, right?” - Ross King“If your marriage falls apart, there’s a divorce proceeding. If someone dies, there’s a funeral. If there’s a loss of a job, there is a severance package or unemployment. This particular loss, there is no system for it. And so you have to weep and learn to [deal with the notion];  I wanted my life to be different.” - Ross King Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Leonard, the Lonely Astronaut album by Andrew OsengaAl GoreMitt Romney*Watch this interview on the YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Ross King’s websiteRoss King’s YouTubeRoss King’s InstagramRoss King’s Facebook Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

In this episode of The Pivot, Andrew sits down with Marty Solomon, president of Impact Campus Ministries and the co-creator, executive producer, and cohost of The BEMA Podcast. Marty discusses his passion for working with college students and how diverse academic perspectives helped him construct a more accurate and comprehensive understanding of the Bible that is true to its origins. He also explores what an unfiltered version of Christianity entails and emphasizes the importance of building personal theology around the principle of loving others. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “If you are a college kid or you’ve been in your early twenties, you know what it’s like to be in this place of, What am I going to do with my life? What am I going to do next? Who am I? And the truth is, I’m still asking those questions at forty-six. I’m asking them in a different way. I have a lot more responsibility.” - Andrew Osenga“One day I was just like, God, I just want to pursue this discipleship stuff. I need people who are old enough that they’re not at home, so their parents can’t tell them no. I want to do this without permission slips, but I also need somebody who doesn’t have a mortgage and a marriage and three children and a career. And I just realized, Oh man, there’s a window there, and it’s college students. That’s when I jumped into campus ministry.” - Marty Solomon“I’m a teacher by trade, I’m a teacher by giftedness. I’m going to approach ministry as a teacher/preacher.” - Marty Solomon“We’re looking at the Bible through a historically informed lens. I want to ask the question, ‘What did the author mean when they wrote this? What did the audience hear when they heard it?’ I believe that’s the inspired conversation. That’s where the good stuff is.” - Marty Solomon“We’re probably used to a Christianity that’s been pulled through about twenty different filters. Not that it’s changed it or bastardized it beyond recognition, but it has definitely colored it and shaped it and probably twisted it in ways you’ve found confusing, hurtful, convoluted, distasteful, uncompelling.” - Marty Solomon“We are wounded and we are wary and we want something more than these crazy, in depth, complex, classical systems we’ve been handed.” - Marty Solomon“We’re going to learn in 400 years how we were wrong about half of it. We’re doing the best job we can, stewarding what we’ve dug out of the dirt.” - Marty Solomon “God asks us to be known for our love and we are not. We think we are, but we know we’re not. The reason we’re not loving people is because our theology does not facilitate loving other people. We’ve got to go back to the source and go, Are we reading our Bible correctly? Because if we’re not, maybe we should have built a different theology.” - Marty Solomon  Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:The BEMA PodcastThe Pivot episode with Pete Enns Impact Campus Ministries Caedmon’s CallAndrew Peterson University of IdahoWashington State University Ray Vander LaanThe Gospel of Being Human by Marty Solomon *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Marty Solomon’s websiteMarty Solomon’s FacebookMarty Solomon’s XMarty Solomon’s InstagramMarty Solomon’s YouTube Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

On this week’s episode of The Pivot, Andrew sits down with designer, author, and cohost of Fixer to Fabulous, Jenny Marrs. Jenny reflects on the unexpected path to her current career, emphasizing how learning through trial and error shaped her understanding that there’s no single right way to do things. She shares the importance of slowing down, acknowledging past experiences, and approaching life with an open-handed mindset. It’s about recognizing that every good thing, every opportunity, every phase, can shift, and we need to be okay with that, trusting that what comes next, even after challenges, can be truly remarkable. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Anybody who’s ever renovated or built a new home, you think you’ve got everything figured out and you move in and a month or two later, you’re like, Oh, I wish I would have done this. Everybody does that; we did that every two years. I got to learn what worked, how homes functioned best and still looked beautiful.” - Jenny Marrs“I think a front porch is so important to a home, the idea that fifty years ago, people would sit and wave to their neighbors and stop by and chat. That no longer really happens. We love our front porch, it’s the place where we start our day most often. You get outside for a minute and breathe and sit in the rocking chair. It’s that idea of connecting with being outside, connecting with people.” - Jenny Marrs “Look out the window right now. I have my windows open and the birds are chirping and you can’t help but slow down for a second when you’re walking past. Even those thirty seconds are so important for resetting our frazzled pace of life.” - Jenny Marrs“Technology has kind of taken us away from the act of lingering and abiding in the presence of God. I mean, you can open your phone and search anything and you get an instantaneous answer. We have to step away from the busy and the frazzled and the hurried lifestyle that we all lead and it’s really hard to do. Otherwise, you’re losing this connection to your soul and to God and to each other.” - Jenny Marrs“I have learned to be open-handed with everything, because there’s seasons when you have to close the door on things that are really important to you or you feel passionate about, and you can’t imagine closing the door. But if for some reason God said it’s over, I will mourn it and grieve it but I will know that on the other side is the beauty and the abundance of being obedient to God's calling.” - Jenny Marrs  Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Newell BrandsWalmart The Berry FarmMarrs Mercantile  *Watch this interview on the YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Jenny Marrs’ websiteJenny Marrs’ FacebookJenny Marrs’ InstagramFixer to Fabulous YouTube Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

In this episode of The Pivot, host Andrew Osenga welcomes singer/songwriter and author Sarah Kroger. Sarah opens up about overcoming people-pleasing and perfectionism, a belief that extended to her relationship with God. Through therapy and self-reflection, Sarah reveals how she discovered the gift of boundaries, understanding it as an act of self-love and protection. This powerful pivot transformed her personal life, allowing her to embrace her identity as a writer and artist with authenticity. Join Andrew and Sarah for a conversation that delves into faith, creativity, friendships, and mentorship. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “If you don’t change your mind, like from when you were in your twenties to when you’re in your teens to now, then you haven’t been paying attention.’ - Sarah Kroger“I believed that it was my responsibility to make people happy. I am a recovering people pleaser and perfectionist.” - Sarah Kroger “I come back to that word ‘agency’ because for so much of my life, it was just deferential. Any opinions, any decisions, it was always what other people wanted—to maintain peace, or ‘peace faking,’ as my therapist likes to call it.” - Sarah Kroger“The longest relationship of your life is with yourself. If you don’t learn how to like yourself, like being around yourself, and healing your relationship to yourself, it’s going to be a problem.” - Sarah Kroger“There’s a lot that unites us and divides us and a lot of beauty that we can find on both expressions of the faith.” - Sarah Kroger “For so, so long, I thought that the goal was to be perfect. And the more that I’ve let that go in life, the more I’ve been able to connect, because no one’s perfect." - Sarah Kroger“Doubt is a part of the fabric of trying to be a faithful Christian. I think it’s a huge part of this life and journey and it’s totally okay, acceptable, real, honest, and good.” - Sarah Kroger Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Books:My Beloved Child: Words of Love From the Father by Sarah KrogerBelovedness: Overcoming Your Inner Critic (A Lyrical Devotional) by Sarah KrogerHow to Remember: Forgotten Pathways to Authentic Faith by Andrew OsengaMusic:A New Reality (specifically the song “No Filter”)Anchor Hymns Project (specifically the songs “How Precious Your Presence” and “The Garden”)“Belovedness” by Sarah KrogerOrganizations/Programs:The Fold (creative writing retreat/experience)Faithful Project *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Sarah’s websiteSarah’s InstagramSarah’s XSarah’s FacebookSarah’s YouTubeSarah’s TikTok Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

This week on The Pivot, we’re joined by our long-time friend, the incredibly talented musician and songwriter, Andy Gullahorn. While Andy is still a full-time musician—a career he’s passionately pursued for years—he’s approaching it in wonderfully different ways. We dive into the stories behind his fantastic new record, Winning Streak, and how his unique approach to songwriting often includes those signature left hooks that can make you laugh and cry in the same breath. Andy shares insights into the unexpected circuit of his career, from playing music at intensive therapy retreats where he now co-leads small groups, to the hilarious and heartfelt origins of “grinching” (yes, it involves Christmas trees and a U-Haul), and the enduring tradition of the hi-five with his friend Gabe. We also learn about the joy of Silent Bob Euchre, a card game played in public places without speaking—a testament to Andy’s belief in the power of silly, shared experiences. Join us for a truly fun conversation that explores how Andy finds depth, connection, and even a bit of performance art in both his music and his wonderfully unconventional life. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I played the same stage after it was abandoned for thirty years, but that’s the kind of stuff people leave off of their bio—the second half of the sentence. But I have shared the stage with the Spice Girls.”  - Andy Gullahorn“I’ve always loved playing songs for people in the context of their life. I don’t really like getting in and leaving without knowing where I am.” - Andy Gullahorn“We called it grinching because it felt like you were shoving a Christmas tree up a chimney when you were trying to shove it into a Sienna. And then we would literally play ‘You’re A Mean One, Mr. Grinch’ on repeat in the car.”  - Andy Gullahhorn“If there’s something ridiculous you can do that is not harming anybody and some people are going to look at it and be like, ‘I don't understand it. That's weird.’ To me, it’s like a little art piece in the world. I try to collect that as much as I can.” - Andy Gullahorn Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Andy Gullahorn’s new record, Winning Streak       Winning Streak (Vinyl + CD) - SIGNED OVERPAY - Andy Gullahorn“I Saw a Stranger With Your Hair” by John Gorka David Wilcox (musician)Pierce Pettis (musician)“The Chair” by George StraitSurfing for God by Mike Cusick  Guest’s LinksAndy Gullahorn’s websiteAndy Gullahorn’s FacebookAndy Gullahorn’s InstagramAndy Gullahorn’s XAndy Gullahorn’s YouTube *Watch this interview on the YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.