The Pivot

This episode with Ashley Cleveland came out in January 2018—the first time Andrew ever met Ashley. This interview had such a profound impact on Andrew that he’s referenced it again and again throughout the years, and we wanted to re-share it with you as we look to a New Year.  Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I quickly became an alcoholic and a drug addict, but I also became a musician. I started getting a positive response, whereas everything prior had been pretty negative. So I look upon it as this marker that God gave me to keep me on the planet.” - Ashley Cleveland“I knew less than anything about the industry. But a divide had been crossed, and suddenly I’m a songwriter. I dropped out of school after a couple of years and I went back to California and that’s really where I learned to be an artist. I cut my teeth in clubs.” - Ashley Cleveland“I wound up pregnant, very ill with my addiction, so I turned to the church. And I have to say the church responded deeply and wonderfully.” - Ashley Cleveland “I couldn’t even cope with myself, let alone a child. And yet once I heard that heartbeat, I knew it was gonna be beyond me to give her up. Suddenly, there was someone else, and that was really the beginning of faith for me.” - Ashley Cleveland“I left that hospital knowing that there was a God and He loved me, though I had no earthly idea why.” - Ashley Cleveland“You take the art wherever you go. I’m so glad I had a career with a small C because what that meant for me in practical terms was I was home.” - Ashley Cleveland“For me, the best way to live is with my hands wide open and say, ‘Lord, you are the most surprising thing in my life.’” - Ashley Cleveland“I’m so thankful to be alive. Everything else is gravy.” - Ashley Cleveland Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Anchor HymnsSally Lloyd-JonesNeil YoungUniversity of TennesseePam TillisJohn HiattNACA (National Association of Campus Activities)Michael W. SmithSteven Curtis ChapmanRich MullinsTwenty Feet From StardomC.S. Lewis *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Ashley Cleveland’s InstagramAshley Cleveland’s Facebook Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Join Andrew for a really special end-of-the-year episode as he opens up about the creative work he put out in 2025. He shares some honest reflections about what he learned this year, what didn’t quite work out, and what he’s hoping to carry with him as we step into the new year. We’re talking about how to truly learn from those inevitable failures, seeing them as a chance to redesign the life we want, and the difficult but necessary process of letting things go. And, perhaps most importantly, he’s sharing why carving out space for both rest and community is so critical, especially when they’re the first things that tend to get sacrificed when life gets hectic. Here’s to another year of growing, changing, and simply being humans who make things. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “The truth is I made a lot of things for a long time that had no way to come out, and then they just sort of stacked up, and I was finally like, I’ve got to get this stuff out. I’ve got to just get these piles off the desk so I can do something else. And now I get the chance to start afresh.” - Andrew Osenga“We learn from our failures.” - Andrew Osenga“I love making music, but I also love having conversations and talking about ideas and just getting to talk to some of the most fascinating, incredible people.” - Andrew Osenga“When I tell you the people we have lined up to talk to next year, I literally cannot believe it. Some of my absolute heroes, authors and artists, people that I could not believe said yes. I am so excited and nervous. It’s going to be so fun.” - Andrew Osenga“Alison, my wife, is dealing with cancer, and that’s a long, long, long journey. It’s still really hard. She’s doing a little bit better than a year ago, and we’re really grateful for that. I thank you so much for your prayers.” - Andrew Osenga“I need to find some things I can let go of. I hear other people’s stories, and what you find over and over and over is that community is so important and rest is so important. And when we get busy and spin too many plates, the things that immediately disappear are community and rest.” - Andrew Osenga“We isolate and we ignore the Sabbath and we work, work, work by ourselves. That’s what I do. And all of the sudden, I start to think that I’m the reason everything is working or not working, I can do it all by myself, everything hinges on me, and it doesn’t. I start trusting in myself and not God. I’m leaning on myself and not those around me.” - Andrew Osenga“This is a good time of year where you just have to pause a little bit and you get a chance to rethink, look at your schedule, look at your priorities, look at the things you’re planning on doing, and say, ‘What can I stop? How can I reschedule my time?’” - Andrew Osenga Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Amen. 30 Days of Prayers from the Headwaters by Andrew OsengaAnchor HymnsSandra McCrackenCharlie PeacockSamford University  *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Lead singer of The New Respects and author Jasmine Mullen joins The Pivot for a walk down memory lane, revisiting a beautiful childhood, the band members who turned into family, and a unique form of childhood rebellion: playwriting (and yes, they talk about her adorable play about how the star of Bethlehem was chosen). Jasmine and Andrew reminisce about their younger selves, when Andrew was first working at a record company and met Jasmine, when neither of them knew what they were doing. Jasmine opens up about the strong bonds that have shaped her life and career, and made her into who she is today.  Thought-Provoking Quotes: “All my childhood years were in this house. It’s my favorite place in the world. It’s so beautiful, it’s in the middle of nowhere. Last night when I was driving here there was a cow in the middle of the road. It’s kind of chaotic, but it’s really sweet.” - Jasmine Mullen “Whenever I think of my mom, like in the fullness of herself, I think about her riding. There’s a huge hill in the backyard. She would ride down that hill on her horse bareback, and she was so cool.” - Jasmine Mullen“Growing up, there’s a house on the hill to the right, and my mom’s mom and her dad lived in that house. Then my dad’s parents lived right across the street. And it was just so awesome, they were the best ever. God set me up so well with grandparents who are like storybook grandparents. I look back and I’m just like, ‘Lord, what a gift, what a blessing to have that kind of support that close.’” - Jasmine Mullen“Darius Fitzgerald, Zandy Mowry, and I are family friends. We were raised together, kind of like family.” - Jasmine Mullen“The word ‘friend’ was heavier to me than the word ‘family’ because it was something that you choose, and family just happens to you. Friendship is something that you can build on.” - Jasmine Mullen“I was always super rebellious about not wanting to be in music because both of my parents are in music. So my form of rebellion was, ‘I’m going to write plays.’” - Jasmine Mullen Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:The New Respects bandBen Washington Is the Newbie on the Block by Jasmine MullenBen Washington Is the Odd Man Out by Jasmine MullenAnchor HymnsBrooke FraserCarly Bannister“God of This City” by Chris TomlinTyler Perry *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Jasmine Mullen’s websiteJasmine Mullen’s FacebookJasmine Mullen’s InstagramJasmine Mullen’s X  Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Writer and speaker Liuan Huska joins this episode of The Pivot to share her studies on anthropology and her venture into journalism, as well as her book on reconciling chronic pain and illness with faith. Liuan shares about her family’s year-long travels through South America, her work with Christian conservation organization A Rocha, and reflects on how to find wholeness in the middle of life’s challenges. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I just got more and more concerned about environmental issues, just being a human in this world today and noticing things and being sad about pollution and the way that humans have impacted creation in a negative way.” - Liuan Huska“I had this image of God where He has to act in this certain way for me to maintain a relationship with Him. I had to let go of my images of who God is and what God does in the world.” - Liuan Huska“If we pray and it matters to God, but it doesn’t actually make the tangible difference we thought it was going to make, then what difference does it make to engage with God and continue this personal relationship where we expect God to respond?” - Liuan Huska “We have the ability to make a life for ourselves in different places and we can figure things out. You can go anywhere and really plug in and find community.” - Liuan Huska “It has sometimes just hurt my heart to see that caring for the earth sometimes seems to be treated like an enemy of the church politically sometimes. We are called so clearly in the Scripture to care for the world, to care for the earth. And you look around you and think, This is a gift from God, why would we not want to steward it well?” - Andrew Osenga  Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Hurting Yet Whole by Liuan HuskaA Rocha InternationalLiuan Huska’s Substack, Becoming Whole University of ChicagoChristianity TodayU.S. Environmental Protection AgencyDisappointment with God by Philip YanceyParker PalmerMy South American Classroom by Liuan Huska Catherine McNielEugene Peterson Behold the Lamb of God 2025   *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Liuan Huska’s websiteLiuan Huska’s FacebookLiuan Huska’s Instagram  Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

On this episode of The Pivot, we’re joined by Beth Felker Jones, writer and professor of theology at Northern Seminary, and the mastermind behind the Church Blogmatics Substack, where she explores theological themes through storytelling. Beth shares about her journey to becoming a professor, her approach to teaching topics like sexuality to her students and what she’s learned by listening to their stories, and her perspective on the personal nature of our relationship with God.  Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I remember quite early in my life wishing I had a cool, dramatic conversion story. I knew that was a thing Christians had and that they were beautiful to tell, and I didn’t have one. I think it took me a while to grow up in the truth, and that’s okay.” - Beth Felker Jones“While dramatic conversion stories are really beautiful, so is the way God draws us near in quiet and domestic settings. It doesn’t have to be fireworks for God to be at work. It’s the same God.” - Beth Felker Jones “Family is maybe the number one form of evangelism.” - Andrew Osenga“I love how stories draw us in, and I think that Scripture is primarily a story, a true story. God is at work in love for the world, and Scripture invites us to live in that story and to imagine our lives through that story.” - Beth Felker Jones“We learn from [stories]. We learn to consider the lives of others, and we learn about love and grace and the way sin works in the world.” - Beth Felker Jones“I think a lot of people walk out the door of the church because they’ve heard songs that tell them that God is one thing that He’s not, or that doesn’t give space for their suffering or doubt.” - Andrew Osenga “I learn from my students here. They tell me beautiful stories about falling to the bottom, about their lives falling apart, about a deep hurt that they never thought would come, and about how God has been with them and uses them to bear witness through those troubles.” - Beth Felker Jones“I suspect that every culture has its inherent beauties and its characteristic tendencies to sin. We can claim the beauties and fight the sin. But culture by itself isn’t just this big, bad thing. Often, it’s beautiful. God loves people and the world and art and thought and all the things that make up culture. God doesn’t throw those out, God redeems them.” - Beth Felker Jones “I don’t think it’s an accident that the Bible uses marriage, human marriage, as a metaphor for our relationship with God. It’s not the only metaphor, but there are some real ways in which we can learn about one from the other.” - Beth Felker Jones“I am not of the school which thinks the point of theology is to logically prove all things and line everything up in neat rows. I think theology is more like a poem in that we’re using a really beautiful thing, language, to point to something beyond God, who cannot be fully captured in our language, but who nonetheless has chosen words to communicate with us.” - Beth Felker Jones Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Why I Am Protestant by Beth Felker JonesChurch Blogmatics Substack (Check out Andrew’s guest appearance on Beth’s Substack in December!) Northern SeminaryKirk CameronC.S. LewisPsalmsG.K. ChestertonPope Gregory I (Gregory the Great) *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Beth Felker Jones’ websiteBeth Felker Jones’ FacebookBeth Felker Jones’ XBeth Felker Jones’ Instagram  Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Pastor and author Claude Atcho joins The Pivot to discuss the challenging transition from a large, established church to a smaller, new gathering. He explains how this move required him to shed the role of a seasoned veteran and embrace starting over as a newbie. Claude shares insights into the difficulties of driving significant change for one’s family, especially when the decision seems counterintuitive on paper, and offers advice on prioritizing learning and growth over the comfort of established competence. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I remember as a kid really enjoying going to the library, just enjoying the fact that people are creative and they’ve taken the time to capture stories, write them down, or tell somebody else’s story.” - Claude Atcho “Books mark different transitions in my life.” - Claude Atcho “Growing up, I loved sports, and came to the realization that most young boys have; Oh, being a pro athlete is probably not in the cards for me. And what does that mean? How do I experience that transition of my future, this taste of realism? How do I find my place in things?” - Claude Atcho “I wanted to write [my book] for Christians who wanted to think about both literature and how literature can form us and how story matters and can form us, particularly when we put stories in conversation with a story of the kingdom.” - Claude Atcho “There’s something unique about story and language and it can do something in us that sometimes other things can’t do.” - Claude Atcho“I think I can use competence as a shield to protect myself from feeling out of control or vulnerable. Starting as a learner, I had to be present to everything in a new way, and I think that was good for me. I’m still learning to do that.” - Claude Atcho “Major transitions happen in people’s lives all the time, I think I was just not aware of that. I feel like, Oh, I’ll do this forever. No I won’t. I hope to have a good long run wherever I go, but this is happening all the time.” - Claude Atcho“Rhythms of relationship with Jesus are a way to remind ourselves that this is not a place to be ultimately comfortable, but that we find comfort with Him.” - Andrew Osenga Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Reading Black Books by Claude Atcho Rhythms of Faith by Claude Atcho The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde Chicago BullsSeattle MarinersDr. Henry CloudD. Michael Lindsay*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Claude Atcho’s websiteClaude Atcho’s XClaude Atcho’s Instagram Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

On this episode of The Pivot, we’re joined by Andrew Torrance, Professor of Theology and Co-Director of the Logos Institute for Analytic and Exegetical Theology. Andrew shares about his work with the Scientists in Congregations program that opens up avenues for conversations between faith and scientific communities to learn how they can work together for a better understanding of the world and of our place in it.  Thought-Provoking Quotes: “[Science] is not a threat to faith, but it’s something that can really be an important part of the life of the church.” - Andrew Torrance“There’s ways in which science actually exposes the many mysteries that confront the human understanding rather than resolving all of them.” - Andrew Torrance “What does it mean to be a human that’s been created in the image of God? What are the ways in which human beings are unique in the world?” - Andrew Torrance“I just love the outdoors. I think that’s what really attracted me towards science, just really trying to understand the natural world in which we find ourselves.” - Andrew Torrance “How do we think about the relationship between the brain and understanding? Are these two things distinct from one another? There are a lot of psychologists today that want to say we’re purely physical beings, and there’s some that want to recognize that our brain is accompanied by a mind. Human consciousness and our understanding isn’t reducible to the physical brain processes. There’s unique qualities that distinguish the two.” - Andrew Torrance Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:St. Andrews University Joe RoganScientists in Congregations Søren KierkegaardKarl Barth*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links:Andrew’s St. Andrews University page Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

In this powerful episode of The Pivot, Andrew sits down with fellow Christian musician and songwriter Ross King. In this interview (recorded before he lost his wife Staci to cancer), Ross shares how significant traumas—including his father’s drowning and his wife’s cancer diagnosis—have profoundly changed his loyalties to his own mindset. He discusses the nuanced process of grief, not just for what is lost, but for “the life we wanted,” and the challenging honesty of songwriting through profound suffering. This candid discussion explores how unexpected challenges can lead to difficult but ultimately redemptive personal adjustments, fostering deeper relationships and a re-evaluation of faith. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “We are both married to cancer patients. Both of our wives have aggressive, advanced cancer. I don’t share a lot about that, we’ve needed to kind of keep it in our house, but it’s been encouraging for me to watch you wrestle with it publicly. Cancer changes everything.” - Andrew Osenga“Yeah, I think cancer is afraid of God. But right now, it doesn’t seem like that’s causing any difference in what we’re going through. For me, it was returning to; I really want to be close to God. That’s something I would have said as a kid, but then I probably got too cool to say that. And now I want to say it again, because I really kind of miss that guy.” - Ross King“I really want closeness to God, but I’m telling you, I’m way too weak and fragile and broken and scared to beg for that, whatever it takes.” - Ross King“I have this theory that heavily traumatizing things do one of two things to a person’s soul, spirit, psyche. And those two things are on a spectrum, they’re not black and white, but on the two ends of the spectrum are, I will never let that happen to me ever again. I’ll do whatever it takes to make sure that doesn’t happen to me ever. And this is on the other side, for those who are listening and not seeing on the other end is, Oh, this is why people are so crazy and wounded. I have empathy.” - Ross King“We, in addition to grieving the actual thing that’s happening, we have to grieve the death of the life we wanted. Because it’s a real thing. And no one knows how to help us with that, right?” - Ross King“If your marriage falls apart, there’s a divorce proceeding. If someone dies, there’s a funeral. If there’s a loss of a job, there is a severance package or unemployment. This particular loss, there is no system for it. And so you have to weep and learn to [deal with the notion];  I wanted my life to be different.” - Ross King Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Leonard, the Lonely Astronaut album by Andrew OsengaAl GoreMitt Romney*Watch this interview on the YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Ross King’s websiteRoss King’s YouTubeRoss King’s InstagramRoss King’s Facebook Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

In this episode of The Pivot, Andrew sits down with Marty Solomon, president of Impact Campus Ministries and the co-creator, executive producer, and cohost of The BEMA Podcast. Marty discusses his passion for working with college students and how diverse academic perspectives helped him construct a more accurate and comprehensive understanding of the Bible that is true to its origins. He also explores what an unfiltered version of Christianity entails and emphasizes the importance of building personal theology around the principle of loving others. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “If you are a college kid or you’ve been in your early twenties, you know what it’s like to be in this place of, What am I going to do with my life? What am I going to do next? Who am I? And the truth is, I’m still asking those questions at forty-six. I’m asking them in a different way. I have a lot more responsibility.” - Andrew Osenga“One day I was just like, God, I just want to pursue this discipleship stuff. I need people who are old enough that they’re not at home, so their parents can’t tell them no. I want to do this without permission slips, but I also need somebody who doesn’t have a mortgage and a marriage and three children and a career. And I just realized, Oh man, there’s a window there, and it’s college students. That’s when I jumped into campus ministry.” - Marty Solomon“I’m a teacher by trade, I’m a teacher by giftedness. I’m going to approach ministry as a teacher/preacher.” - Marty Solomon“We’re looking at the Bible through a historically informed lens. I want to ask the question, ‘What did the author mean when they wrote this? What did the audience hear when they heard it?’ I believe that’s the inspired conversation. That’s where the good stuff is.” - Marty Solomon“We’re probably used to a Christianity that’s been pulled through about twenty different filters. Not that it’s changed it or bastardized it beyond recognition, but it has definitely colored it and shaped it and probably twisted it in ways you’ve found confusing, hurtful, convoluted, distasteful, uncompelling.” - Marty Solomon“We are wounded and we are wary and we want something more than these crazy, in depth, complex, classical systems we’ve been handed.” - Marty Solomon“We’re going to learn in 400 years how we were wrong about half of it. We’re doing the best job we can, stewarding what we’ve dug out of the dirt.” - Marty Solomon “God asks us to be known for our love and we are not. We think we are, but we know we’re not. The reason we’re not loving people is because our theology does not facilitate loving other people. We’ve got to go back to the source and go, Are we reading our Bible correctly? Because if we’re not, maybe we should have built a different theology.” - Marty Solomon  Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:The BEMA PodcastThe Pivot episode with Pete Enns Impact Campus Ministries Caedmon’s CallAndrew Peterson University of IdahoWashington State University Ray Vander LaanThe Gospel of Being Human by Marty Solomon *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Marty Solomon’s websiteMarty Solomon’s FacebookMarty Solomon’s XMarty Solomon’s InstagramMarty Solomon’s YouTube Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

On this week’s episode of The Pivot, Andrew sits down with designer, author, and cohost of Fixer to Fabulous, Jenny Marrs. Jenny reflects on the unexpected path to her current career, emphasizing how learning through trial and error shaped her understanding that there’s no single right way to do things. She shares the importance of slowing down, acknowledging past experiences, and approaching life with an open-handed mindset. It’s about recognizing that every good thing, every opportunity, every phase, can shift, and we need to be okay with that, trusting that what comes next, even after challenges, can be truly remarkable. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Anybody who’s ever renovated or built a new home, you think you’ve got everything figured out and you move in and a month or two later, you’re like, Oh, I wish I would have done this. Everybody does that; we did that every two years. I got to learn what worked, how homes functioned best and still looked beautiful.” - Jenny Marrs“I think a front porch is so important to a home, the idea that fifty years ago, people would sit and wave to their neighbors and stop by and chat. That no longer really happens. We love our front porch, it’s the place where we start our day most often. You get outside for a minute and breathe and sit in the rocking chair. It’s that idea of connecting with being outside, connecting with people.” - Jenny Marrs “Look out the window right now. I have my windows open and the birds are chirping and you can’t help but slow down for a second when you’re walking past. Even those thirty seconds are so important for resetting our frazzled pace of life.” - Jenny Marrs“Technology has kind of taken us away from the act of lingering and abiding in the presence of God. I mean, you can open your phone and search anything and you get an instantaneous answer. We have to step away from the busy and the frazzled and the hurried lifestyle that we all lead and it’s really hard to do. Otherwise, you’re losing this connection to your soul and to God and to each other.” - Jenny Marrs“I have learned to be open-handed with everything, because there’s seasons when you have to close the door on things that are really important to you or you feel passionate about, and you can’t imagine closing the door. But if for some reason God said it’s over, I will mourn it and grieve it but I will know that on the other side is the beauty and the abundance of being obedient to God's calling.” - Jenny Marrs  Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Newell BrandsWalmart The Berry FarmMarrs Mercantile  *Watch this interview on the YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Jenny Marrs’ websiteJenny Marrs’ FacebookJenny Marrs’ InstagramFixer to Fabulous YouTube Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

In this episode of The Pivot, host Andrew Osenga welcomes singer/songwriter and author Sarah Kroger. Sarah opens up about overcoming people-pleasing and perfectionism, a belief that extended to her relationship with God. Through therapy and self-reflection, Sarah reveals how she discovered the gift of boundaries, understanding it as an act of self-love and protection. This powerful pivot transformed her personal life, allowing her to embrace her identity as a writer and artist with authenticity. Join Andrew and Sarah for a conversation that delves into faith, creativity, friendships, and mentorship. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “If you don’t change your mind, like from when you were in your twenties to when you’re in your teens to now, then you haven’t been paying attention.’ - Sarah Kroger“I believed that it was my responsibility to make people happy. I am a recovering people pleaser and perfectionist.” - Sarah Kroger “I come back to that word ‘agency’ because for so much of my life, it was just deferential. Any opinions, any decisions, it was always what other people wanted—to maintain peace, or ‘peace faking,’ as my therapist likes to call it.” - Sarah Kroger“The longest relationship of your life is with yourself. If you don’t learn how to like yourself, like being around yourself, and healing your relationship to yourself, it’s going to be a problem.” - Sarah Kroger“There’s a lot that unites us and divides us and a lot of beauty that we can find on both expressions of the faith.” - Sarah Kroger “For so, so long, I thought that the goal was to be perfect. And the more that I’ve let that go in life, the more I’ve been able to connect, because no one’s perfect." - Sarah Kroger“Doubt is a part of the fabric of trying to be a faithful Christian. I think it’s a huge part of this life and journey and it’s totally okay, acceptable, real, honest, and good.” - Sarah Kroger Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Books:My Beloved Child: Words of Love From the Father by Sarah KrogerBelovedness: Overcoming Your Inner Critic (A Lyrical Devotional) by Sarah KrogerHow to Remember: Forgotten Pathways to Authentic Faith by Andrew OsengaMusic:A New Reality (specifically the song “No Filter”)Anchor Hymns Project (specifically the songs “How Precious Your Presence” and “The Garden”)“Belovedness” by Sarah KrogerOrganizations/Programs:The Fold (creative writing retreat/experience)Faithful Project *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Sarah’s websiteSarah’s InstagramSarah’s XSarah’s FacebookSarah’s YouTubeSarah’s TikTok Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

This week on The Pivot, we’re joined by our long-time friend, the incredibly talented musician and songwriter, Andy Gullahorn. While Andy is still a full-time musician—a career he’s passionately pursued for years—he’s approaching it in wonderfully different ways. We dive into the stories behind his fantastic new record, Winning Streak, and how his unique approach to songwriting often includes those signature left hooks that can make you laugh and cry in the same breath. Andy shares insights into the unexpected circuit of his career, from playing music at intensive therapy retreats where he now co-leads small groups, to the hilarious and heartfelt origins of “grinching” (yes, it involves Christmas trees and a U-Haul), and the enduring tradition of the hi-five with his friend Gabe. We also learn about the joy of Silent Bob Euchre, a card game played in public places without speaking—a testament to Andy’s belief in the power of silly, shared experiences. Join us for a truly fun conversation that explores how Andy finds depth, connection, and even a bit of performance art in both his music and his wonderfully unconventional life. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I played the same stage after it was abandoned for thirty years, but that’s the kind of stuff people leave off of their bio—the second half of the sentence. But I have shared the stage with the Spice Girls.”  - Andy Gullahorn“I’ve always loved playing songs for people in the context of their life. I don’t really like getting in and leaving without knowing where I am.” - Andy Gullahorn“We called it grinching because it felt like you were shoving a Christmas tree up a chimney when you were trying to shove it into a Sienna. And then we would literally play ‘You’re A Mean One, Mr. Grinch’ on repeat in the car.”  - Andy Gullahhorn“If there’s something ridiculous you can do that is not harming anybody and some people are going to look at it and be like, ‘I don't understand it. That's weird.’ To me, it’s like a little art piece in the world. I try to collect that as much as I can.” - Andy Gullahorn Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Andy Gullahorn’s new record, Winning Streak       Winning Streak (Vinyl + CD) - SIGNED OVERPAY - Andy Gullahorn“I Saw a Stranger With Your Hair” by John Gorka David Wilcox (musician)Pierce Pettis (musician)“The Chair” by George StraitSurfing for God by Mike Cusick  Guest’s LinksAndy Gullahorn’s websiteAndy Gullahorn’s FacebookAndy Gullahorn’s InstagramAndy Gullahorn’s XAndy Gullahorn’s YouTube *Watch this interview on the YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Welcome to The Pivot—relaunched! Joining us this week is Pete Enns, author, Abram S. Clemens professor of Biblical Studies at Eastern University, and cohost of The Bible For Normal People podcast. Pete emphasizes that his response to the question "What have you changed your mind about and why?" is constantly evolving, mirroring his own personal growth. He explores how embracing change respects both our human experience and individual journeys. The discussion also reveals how God, and faith broadly, accommodates questions rather than offering definitive answers. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I’ve changed my mind on a lot of things, and sometimes it’s still like, I used to know, but I don’t think I know that anymore. I used to think this, but now I think something differently. And that’s why I’m open to change about pretty much anything, even some of the most fundamental questions.” - Pete Enns“We live in a universe that is filled with mystery. The more we see things, the more we see what we don’t, and things that were certain become less certain, not because science is stupid, but because science is skeptical and it moves forward and it sees things and has to make measurements and tests.” - Pete Enns“I think primarily my goal is to let [people] know that the Christian world allows discussions and even encourages them, which is not what they hear on TV, like it’s one thing or nothing. God can handle it. Maybe God even likes the questions.” - Pete Enns“Evolving faith is redundant. Faith always evolves or changes. It never stays the same, because human beings, we’re growing, we’re developing.” - Pete Enns “I do not think about God the same way now that I did when I was 24, 25. How could you? You live, you breathe, you experience things.” - Pete Enns “God is always affected by our experiences and our intuitions. You’ve probably heard, ‘Don’t trust your intuitions, don’t trust your feelings. Those things are irrelevant.’ But that’s what makes us human. Our emotions, our experiences, our intuitions, are always involved in how we think about God. To accept that, I think, is just simply to honor our humanity.” - Pete Enns“The Bible is more of an invitation to communion than it is the divine answer book that answers all the questions we might have.” - Pete Enns Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Marvel Cinematic UniverseTony StarkEastern UniversityChatGPTThe book of Job Ilya DelioVillanova UniversityAristotle Westminster Theological SeminaryReformationJohn CalvinThe Sin Of Certainty by Pete EnnsRachel Held EvansEvolving FaithIain McGilchristGreen Eggs and Ham by Dr. SeussWhat to Expect When You’re Expecting by Heidi MurkoffThe Grapes of Wrath by John Steinbeck  *Watch this interview on the YouTube channel!  *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links: Pete Enns’ FacebookPete Enns’ InstagramPete Enns’ SubstackThe Bible for Normal People WebsiteThe Bible for Normal People TikTokThe Bible for Normal People FacebookThe Bible for Normal People InstagramThe Bible for Normal People YouTube Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

It’s a brand new season for The Pivot—hosted by artist, producer, songwriter, and author Andrew Osenga. This podcast delves into the idea of changing our minds in an age of polarization and unyielding beliefs. The Pivot offers a space for honest, vulnerable, and intelligent conversations about the evolution of thought, belief, and life path. From personal growth to shifts in worldview, from navigating complex social issues to rediscovering spiritual truths, Andrew and his guests will explore the courageous journey of re-evaluation. This isn’t about promoting indecision, but celebrating the wisdom found in intellectual humility and authentic transformation; embracing the idea that It’s never too late to change your perspective.The Pivot is relaunching soon—to coincide with the release of Andrew’s first book: How to Remember: Forgotten Pathways to an Authentic Faith. Podcast episodes will be released weekly and video versions will also appear on YouTube. Subscribe now so you don’t miss an episode! Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

If you follow a Christian woman between the ages of 20 and 40 on Instagram, then you’ve 1000% seen Morgan’s work. She does these beautiful, inspiring, super shareable quotes and thoughts over wonderful artwork and once they get to the internet they just go EVERYWHERE. I remember seeing Morgan play music once or twice when one of her previous careers overlapped with my orbit. But who would have thought that she’d one day call herself a POET and be doing what she’s doing now, running her own business with the books, journals, stickers, and who knows what else that flows from her current creativity. She’s got a new book that comes out next week called “How Far You Have Come” and I loved hearing the story of how this book came about. In fact, I loved our whole interview. I started this whole podcast because I was hearing a lot of stories of people’s big successes, but I was in the midst of my own personal failure, and I desperately needed to hear that my story wasn’t over. Her story is so inspiring because, while what she’s doing now is doing quite well, it’s a really human tale with a lot of wandering, failure, fear, questions and the tenacity of just NEEDING to keep trying until something works. I’m so glad it did. You can get Morgan’s new book, as well as the stickers and a bunch of other amazing things, plus her 4-minute daily podcast, at MorganHarperNichols.com Follow her on Instagram! Also, don’t forget to join the CHICKEN OF THE MONTH CLUB! FH.org/pivot And get your tickets to the WhiteOwlMusicFest - Jars, Sandra, me and a bunch of others at a socially distant music festival outside Nashville on May 29. Also, here’s a little Andy O music, too! Thank you all! Now go do something awesome.

MY GOODNESS. I loved this conversation. Douglas McKelvey is a most fascinating human. He’s the author of two incredible books of liturgies, the second actually releases this week and is called Every Moment Holy, Vol. 2: Death, Grief and Hope. He’s also a fantastic songwriter who doesn’t sing or play music, but has penned the lyrics to over 350 songs recorded by a variety of artists including Switchfoot, Kenny Rogers, Sanctus Real, and Jason Gray. He’s been a scriptwriter and video director and a lot of things in between. Like me, he’s a father of three daughters. Also, like me, he’s spent a lot of time doing whatever he could to just keep the lights on that, in retrospect, look like a full, inspiring and rich life. And that work history is only part of the story. Beyond that there’s a deeper narrative of bravely and intentionally moving away from isolation and towards friendship and community. Doug’s a decade or so ahead of me and he got his start in Nashville with a close little group of friends, led by Charlie Peacock, who have pretty much all become heroes and mentors of mine. All of that leads so clearly, now, to his work writing these liturgies in Every Moment Holy, and it is wonderful to see how astonishingly successful they are. These books mean a lot to a lot of people, and when you hear all the work and love that Doug puts into creating these, you’ll understand why. I’ll say it again at the end, but go to everymomentholy.com to order your copy of Every Moment Holy and the new Volume 2: Death, Grief and Hope. And please, friends, join us at the CHICKEN OF THE MONTH CLUB!!! Go to fh.org/pivot to sign up today! Get your tickets to the White Owl Music Fest!! Just outside of Nashville on May 29. Also, here’s a little Andy O music, too! Thank you all! Now go do something awesome.

Lynn Holloway was an Imagineer for Disney and has designed all kinds of amazing things, from theme parks to Danish parades to Super Bowl halftime shows. He’s a visual storyteller working in three dimensions and his work is fascinating. But this is really more of a love story; How a fear of intimacy left him in years of loneliness, and how finally facing those fears in the shadow of his father’s passing, set him on a new path towards love, family and healing. Unlike a lot of my guests, Lynn’s career has been a bit of a straight arrow. The pivot for him has been the life surrounding his job. This is a beautiful story and I deeply enjoyed this conversation. And please, friends, join us at the CHICKEN OF THE MONTH CLUB!!! Go to fh.org/pivot to sign up today! Get your tickets to the White Owl Music Fest!! Just outside of Nashville on May 29. Also, here’s a little Andy O music, too! Thank you all! Now go do something awesome.

After 20 years as a singer/songwriter, Jill Phillips went back to school to get her Masters in counseling and is now a full-time Marriage and Family therapist (who still plays music!) To anyone who knows Jill at all, this career transition is not surprising. She is an incredibly wise and empathetic friend to many, and even her songs are often based on the themes of carrying each other’s burdens, and holding grief and hope together in the same hand. We were originally going to do this interview in her new counseling office, so I could sit on her couch and, you know, get the full experience, but then it was a beautiful Spring day and we decided to just sit on their back porch and catch up. You might hear a few airplanes flying over, but you also might hear a lot of birds chirping, too. It was worth it. These days, when I see Jill, it’s usually while we’re working on music or in line at Ladybird Taco, so I’ve not gotten the full story until this chat. I’ve watched her sitting and doing homework in soundcheck the past four years, though, and it’s been inspiring to see how focused and driven she is on learning better and better how to love and care for people. Glad you guys hit play on this one, I think you’re really going to enjoy it. If you want to learn more about Jill or hear her wonderful music you can go to JillPhillips.com Get your tickets to the White Owl Music Fest!! Just outside of Nashville on May 29. And please, friends, join us at the CHICKEN OF THE MONTH CLUB!!! Go to fh.org/pivot to sign up today! Also, here’s a little Andy O music, if you’re interested… Thank you all! Now go do something awesome.

Rob Touchstone is co-founder of The Well Coffeeshop, a chain of non-profit coffeeshops who donate their profits to providing clean water wells to communities in poverty all over the world. (It’s also just a really good coffeeshop.) Besides that, Rob is an entrepreneur, a business professor, and a pastor here in Nashville, TN. This is a great story, how Rob moved from being a theologically trained youth pastor to the creator and Director of Lipscomb University’s Center for Business As Mission, where he teaches and mentors students to think missionally about business and entrepreneurship. A mutual friend connected Rob and I a few months ago and I’d like to think we became fast friends. I love the work that he’s doing and I’m so thankful for what he’s created here in Nashville. You can connect with Rob and find a lot of his teaching at RobTouchstone.com Or learn more about The Well Coffeehouse And aren’t you inspired to put some good into the world after listening to this? Go to FH.org/pivot and join the CHICKEN OF THE MONTH CLUB now. Join Food For The Hungry in giving a family some chickens and teaching them how to use them to bring flourishing and prospering to their communities. Also, here’s a little Andy O music, if you’re interested… Thank you all! Now go do something awesome.

David Zach is an abolitionist in a rock and roll band. He has traveled all over the world, going undercover to help rescue girls from slavery and sex trafficking. It’s a wild story. But 9-to-5, David is the frontman for the band, Remedy Drive. The band started as four brothers and we got to talk about how they had to quit being in a band together to be good brothers. It is also a pretty wild story. Maybe not quite as wild as going undercover in a Thailand nightclub. It was really fascinating to learn about the work David and the organization he’s a part of, Exodus Road, are doing in some of the most dangerous places on Earth. Get involved with David and The Exodus Road at remedydrive.com/action Watch this great short documentary on their work HERE. And definitely go listen to Remedy Drive’s new album, IMAGO AMOR. And please, friends, join us at the CHICKEN OF THE MONTH CLUB!!! Go to fh.org/pivot to sign up today! Also, here’s a little Andy O music, if you’re interested… Thank you all! Now go do something awesome.