Seeing Jesus with Paul Miller

Jon and Liz interview Jill Miller, seeJesus' Adaptive Curriculum Writer, about her new Bible study, Advent, and her children's book, Tully's Christmas Mess. You can view these new books and past advent podcasts and blog posts here. "It was December 26, and I put the tree away after it fell down again. Paul said, 'Why are you putting the tree away? It's only the day after Christmas.' I said, 'Hon, she did what she could.' I love that verse!" "Jesus adapted the majesty that he came from, so we can get a grip on it, a tiny grip." "If you only know the nativity moment of the Christmas story, it is like coming in at the end of a movie - you miss all that that stuff that helps you feel the climax of the moment. But the Advent Study, as we move through Isaiah and then the story leading up to Jesus' birth, we actually have a drum roll. It starts out really soft, but as it goes through the story, it gets louder and louder when Jesus comes. Then, we have the cymbals!"

Paul, Robert, and Liz wrap up this study of Jesus by reflecting on what Jesus tells us about his glory... and what that means for how we follow him. "We would think the glory would be the resurrection, that it would start Sunday. But Jesus says the glory starts Friday… which is just so different than how we think of glory." "Most of the time you only see glory in retrospect. When you're enduring quietly with no cheering crowd, that's your glory." "What's Jesus going to do at the wedding feast of the lamb? He's going to be the center of the feast, and he's going to also be the host and the servants. He's going to be around checking people, checking their drinks, serving food. He just loves to love. He loves to wash feet."

Paul, Robert, and Liz continue their conversation about the resurrection of Jesus. "It was the apocryphal gospel of Peter that helped me to realize how much space Jesus left in this Resurrection scene. If you follow what the gospel of Peter says, Jesus comes back from the grave like King Kong - he fills up all the space. You can't even see his head, because it is literally up through the clouds!" "I want Jesus' DNA – to ask questions, to be slow to bring judgment." "In the story of Jesus and Mary Magdalene in Luke and John, Jesus is the same size as Mary. He leaves space by quietly being there until she sees him – and even then he doesn't say who he is but asks her questions. And because of that, we discover some of what Mary's like as a person. If Jesus had identified himself immediately, we'd have missed that glimpse of Mary."

Paul, Robert, and Liz begin looking at the first moments after the resurrection of Jesus, examining his interaction with Mary Magdalene. "Mary Magdalene is the first person we know of who turns away from two angels, because they aren't helping her. She's in pursuit, and the angels aren't helping her, so she starts looking around. We know from Luke that she had been demon-possessed, and Jesus had freed her, so what we're looking at in her single-minded focus is the depth of her love for Jesus." "Jesus is the first person of a new creation." "Sickness is going to end. Cancer is going to end. Meanness is going to end, murder is going to end, death's going to end. This is the biggest and best news in all of history, and Jesus is able to make her name and who she is as a person the center of how he shares the news with her."

Paul, Robert, and Liz finish their conversation about Jesus on the cross, slowly walking through his last seven statements. "Notice how short Jesus' sentences are on the cross. He has to push himself up on his feet to catch a breath and then to be able to exhale that breath without dropping… it makes it all that much harder to talk." "Everything about this person is supernatural!" "Jesus cries out, 'It is finished!' The job is done. In John 2, Jesus tells his mother at the wedding in Cana, 'My time has not yet come.' But now the battle's over. He's done the will of his father. For the disciples, at this point, it looks like everything has gone wrong, but they'll later realize that this is a cry of triumph."

Paul, Robert, and Liz continue their slow walk through the last hours of Jesus' life, looking at Jesus and the cross. "There are so many things that Jesus says that are memorable because they're pithy. 'Father, forgive them for they know not what they do' is certainly one that has implanted itself in our memories. But it's very serious. Jesus is holding back the wrath of God. They don't realize that they're crucifying an innocent man, so Jesus is showing mercy on them." "The only person that openly defends Jesus is a thief." "When Pilate said, 'Where are you from?' he was not asking for Jesus' name. He knew this was Jesus of Nazareth. He wasn't saying, 'what's your hometown,' but, 'are you actually God?' And of course, the main thing Pilate is mocking here is not Jesus, but the Jews, and they know it."

Paul, Robert, and Liz continue their conversation about Jesus before Pilate, looking at how close Jesus gets to Pilate's heart. "Jesus has taken Pilate from a mocking question into opening up his heart, then he's received more mocking from Pilate and taken him to truth. The whole thing is kind of a journey, and Pilate follows Jesus." "Jesus is very lamb-like, but there's a lion right behind the bushes and you can feel it." "Pilate was not a fearful man. He was a crafty politician. He stayed longer, up to that point, than any other of the Roman procurators, so he's got good survival instincts; but here, he's afraid. In the end, he has a choice to save his career or to save Jesus' life; and as you know, in the end, he chooses his career."

Paul, Robert, and Liz continue their conversation about how Jesus loves as the cross draws near, turning their attention to the trial scene with Pilate. "Pilate is one of the people in the Gospels who we tend to see through a fairly fixed definition. The scene where he washes his hands is iconic: 'Behold, the man!' So we actually don't have a feel for him as a person. What's this guy like? It was Edersheim's book, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, that first put me onto what's going on in this conversation." "The beauty of poetry is this ability to condense infinity, and Jesus does it all the time." "There's a degree to which that mocking can help us not take ourselves too seriously, but there's also a way that mocking can prevent us from taking ourselves seriously enough."

Paul, Robert, and Liz continue their conversation about how Jesus loves as the cross draws near, turning their attention to the scene when Judas arrives at the garden. "We can sometimes be fearful of the kind of honest command or these penetrating questions Jesus asks that unmask evil. Sin grows in the dark. And yet here they are coming in the cover of darkness, not realizing they were coming to the one who is the light of the world, who exposes every part of them." "Jesus is the light everywhere he goes." "This whole scene probably takes no more than 10 minutes. But within that time, we see Jesus moving between all these different ways of loving. He's so very present, so aware. He moves in every quadrant of love from powerfully rebuking to asking penetrating questions to protecting the disciples. It's a beautiful portrait of Jesus loving."

Paul, Robert, and Liz resume the Passion series, watching Jesus at Gethsemane. "What saved us from sin and brought joy to the world? It was Jesus' death on the cross. What makes Jesus' death possible? Well, it was his obedience to his father: doing his father's will. When did he set his will firmly? What was the ground zero of his obedience? It was facing the awful sadness at Gethsemane and not giving into it, resisting the temptation to run." "Jesus says, 'Take this cup from me, yet not as I will, but you will.' I love that Jesus is real about his feelings and what his feelings are pushing him to. And yet, at the same time, he's not ruled by his feelings." "This is the trigger for this vast explosion of the new creation. This is the spark. Because he faced his sadness, he didn't run. Because he didn't run, he stayed. Because he stayed, he suffered. Because he suffered, he died. And because he died, he took the sins of the world on himself and was resurrected as the first piece of the new creation."

Paul, Robert, and Liz continue their conversation about Jesus in his passion, considering what his sighs teach us about being human. "A sigh says so much. We know from Romans 8 that the Spirit himself 'intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words' (Romans 8:26). A sigh, or a groan, expresses things that words can't quite capture. There are two ways we encounter the impact of fall all the time: one is sin and the other one is death. Sin is the moral face of evil, and death, the physical." "Jesus' sigh is a hybrid of frustration and sadness – somewhere between a fit of anger and a burst of tears." "The cross deals with sin, and the resurrection deals with death. It's a one-two punch. Jesus' healing ministry is all focused on some impact of the curse on our physical world and our bodies. And his teaching ministry is focused on the impact of sin. And so both of them anticipate the final solution, which is the cross and resurrection. The church continues to live out those two ministries of Christ."

Paul, Robert, and Liz continue their conversation on Jesus' passion, looking at how Jesus begins to face his coming death. To celebrate the complete Person of Jesus series, we're offering $5 off of Unit 5: The Passion Leader's Manual (print or digital version) when you use promo code: POD5 "Paul's line on that from Romans 5 is actually a very stoic-like passage where he says rejoice in your suffering, because suffering produces perseverance, character – all the Greeks would have agreed with that. But then Paul goes Jesus, so to speak. He says, '…and character, hope, and it's a hope that does not disappoint because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit that he's given to us.' The Spirit brings resurrection, not in just in Jesus, but in our souls; we have resurrected souls." "A life in communion with Christ continually experiences resurrection power. This doesn't mean there's no sadness, but we're not engulfed by sadness." "Older, traditional Christianity, as we've said, has tended to be focused on duty, which has many good sides but tends to suppress feelings. The modern world tends to be aware of, magnify, and even get stuck in feelings. So here we see the beautiful balance of Jesus. He is aware that he is troubled, and he knows where this is leading, but he's not ruled by his feelings, which is just beautiful. He says, 'for this very reason I came to this hour.' "

Paul, Robert, and Liz continue their conversation on Jesus' passion, turning their attention to Judas' betrayal. In this episode, Paul mentions a talk he gave on Judas several years ago, as part of an audio study called "The Love Course." You can listen to that talk here (or download it to listen to later, if you click on the triple dots.) "How do you know someone is troubled? He was agitated, and when someone is agitated, they're tense, they're restless, they fidget. And John, sitting right next to him, could sense that. Leaning up against him, he probably felt the tenseness in Jesus' body." "Jesus has kind of given us a template to be ourselves..." "This doesn't mean that 'yourself' is always right but is a beautiful picture of normal. I have one older friend who will often get depressed and sometimes the reason for her feeling depressed is that her circumstances are depressing! I encourage her that it's okay to be depressed, because your life is depressing. While that may not sound like an encouragement, I think it's helpful to see that Jesus allows space for sadness, because often what Christians are dealing with is guilt on top of depression."

Paul, Robert, and Liz continue their conversation about learning from Jesus in his passion. "Contrary to the typical pictures on a Sunday school wall, Jesus comes down the hill on Palm Sunday weeping – the word is actually closer to 'wailing.' In our experience of humanity, people who wail and warrior kings are never the same person, but Jesus is a wailing warrior king. His heart is filled sadness over what his people will suffer, and he will fight to the death for them." "There's a pattern of action that we see throughout the Bible – seeing is the beginning of action." "We see this pattern in the prayers of the Psalms ('Lord, see what I'm doing, look down from heaven'), and in God's response in situations, ('I've seen the travail of my people and I've come down…'). Most human action begins with seeing. And so, we see here with Jesus, it is seeing the city that moves him to tears. He doesn't use his divinity to see it over the hill two miles out. Jesus reacts in the situation, just like you and me."

Paul, Robert, and Liz continue their conversation about seeing Jesus in his passion, turning their attention to what we learn from his sadness and grief over the people's rejection of him. "Jesus' words are so tender, 'Your house is left desolate.' We get a picture of broken intimacy or intimacy that never happened. It's paired with this really true and honest image of how brutal they are. 'You who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you.' He's going after the hardness of their hearts, their will. Jesus, who is life himself, is crushed at this point. He's feeling the loss of the people of Israel." "Understanding Jesus' sadness can help us understand his love." "Joy is the fruit of intimacy and obedience, and sadness is the result from the failure of intimacy and obedience. Obedience involves a surrender of our will to the ways of God. That's where the will comes out in what Jesus is saying here. They're killing the prophets. The prophets are coming and telling them what they're doing wrong, and they hate that. So they're pushing against the mind of Christ; they're pushing against the ways of God."

Paul, Jon, and Liz continue their conversation about the humility Jesus calls us to, looking at what taking the lower place might look like in an everyday moment. "Humility is when your heart is humbled, it's a virtue, a character trait. Humiliation is when your circumstances are humble. It's helpful to distinguish between the two, but having experienced some of the dying of humility in my life, I slowly learned that these two things are deeply connected." "The place of humiliation is where you learn humility." "You do not learn humility abstractly. You have to be in a humbled place. The story I'm going to tell here is made up, but it's the kind of thing that happens everyday. I've made the husband the bad guy, but I've also told it where I flip the husband and wife. But everybody gets mad at the husband in this no matter which way I do it!"

Paul, Jon, and Liz continue their discussion of Jesus' humility, looking at the foot washing scene in John 13. "This scene reads like a YouTube video. John gives us every move of Jesus, and the effect of it is riveting… especially since he does it all in silence. John's writing this probably 60, 50 years later, from what Eusebius tells us, and he remembered every single move Jesus made because he wasn't talking. It just sealed it in his mind – like the scene itself was a visualization of the mind of Christ." "Foot washing is Jesus' glory. It's where his beauty shines." "Jesus is acting out his atonement. He's showing us that the example of his dying love leads to the atonement. It's a beautiful balance between what we might call 'the example of Jesus' and 'the atonement of Jesus.' And it's just so important how we constantly need to bring them together and not pull them apart. Liberalism tends to sit on the example and our conservative churches, while they really do both, tend to weigh the atonement above the example. And it's true, you never get at the example unless you have the atonement. But that makes it easy to miss the foot washing. But the sheer physicality of the gospels shows us Jesus' beauty."

Paul, Jon, and Liz start a new series, talking through the Passion unit of our Person of Jesus Study, which looks closely at how all the aspects of Jesus as a person that we've looked at before (his compassion, honesty, dependence on God, and faith) come together in the intense last few weeks of his life on earth. "Jealousy is a sin that is often hidden from the person who is jealous, because it always speaks about what the other person is doing wrong. So it is powerful and deceptive. It is like cancer within. I have seen churches and families torn apart by this sin. The antidote for it is dying with Jesus – the antidote is to lose, to take the downward path of Philippians 2." "Everyone's expecting and wanting Jesus to move up the ladder, to make a move to grab power, and he's doing the opposite. He's teaching the opposite. He's demonstrating the opposite." "You can picture it like a graph where Jesus' line would be going down and the disciples, their hearts, and their desires are moving up. There's a point where they crisscross, and there's a rub. That rub is working against our own minds and hearts, our own ways of thinking and being. It's the mind of Christ grating against ours in a very gentle but an obviously honest and truthful way."

Paul, Jon, and Liz continue their conversation about discipleship, looking at the relationship between sin identification and beauty formation. "Sin identification and beauty formation are mirrors of one another. The beauty of Christ, which God is by his Spirit forming in us, is where we're going. And sin is the missing of the mark right where we are." "Beauty formation actually has an end goal: getting ready for heaven." "We are his workmanship. Our salvation begins this process of God working in us the beauty of Christ. He's the artist working on us, and the result is that we then become artists ourselves."

Paul, Jon, and Liz reflect on the landscape of discipleship, contrasting the boredom of plains with the beauty of high peaks. "One quality of all the high points is perfection. You see it in Jesus and the Sermon on the Mount's 'Be perfect, even as your Heavenly Father is perfect.' In other words, when you do these things, do them really, really well." "Beauty is one of the church's best apologetics." "Really, perfection is a whole style of the New Testament. Like, we're really in this for real. Toyota and Honda really struggled when they brought their plants to America, because they could not reach the perfection the Japanese machinists could reach in terms of clearances on the parts. Americans couldn't get any closer than two 1/100ths of an inch of perfection, and the Japanese got to one 1/100th. Every good trade has these perfections in it. Where are these perfections in Christianity, in our faith? That's what you see in the high peaks."