Joy Lab | strengthen your mental health with the science of joy

Intrusive thoughts, rumination, worrying... these are nearly universal experiences and the most important thing, particularly when it comes to intrusive thoughts, is that the content doesn't matter as much as what you do with them. Whether it's a shocking thought that pops up out of nowhere or that rumination that woke you up at 3 am and then kept you up last night, the problem isn't necessarily the thought itself. It really has to do with how we grip onto those thoughts. The harder you try to suppress an unwanted thought, the more it comes back. That's the pink elephant paradox that Aimee talks about in this episode... did you try it? How'd you do?! Yeah, it's pretty much impossible to not think of pink elephants when you don't want to. That's the ironic process theory in action, and it's why trying to stop thoughts from coming or trying to shove them away rarely works. What does work is something far more subtle: noticing the thought, naming it as just a thought (not a fact, not a prediction, not a reflection of your character), and letting your attention move on. Ready to take action? Learn more about Experiments here.    About: The Joy Lab Podcast is an Ambie-nominated podcast that blends science and soul to help you cope better with stress, anxiety, and depression. It's hosted by integrative psychiatrist Dr. Henry Emmons and holistic mental health researcher Dr. Aimee Prasek.   Bonus: spread some joy and keep this podcast ad-free by donating. Joy Lab is powered by the nonprofit Pathways North.   Questions this episode was made for: Q: Why do I keep having terrible, scary, disturbing, or intrusive thoughts? Does that mean something is wrong with me? A: No. Research has found that the content of intrusive thoughts doesn't predict worse outcomes or specific diagnoses; in fact, intrusive thoughts can be proof of how much you care about the opposite outcome; what matters isn't what the thought is, it's how tightly you grip it; this episode explains the mechanism and the path to loosening that grip. Of course, it is really important to reach out to a mental health professional if you feel overwhelmed by these thoughts. There are effective strategies that these care providers can help with.   Q: Why does trying not to think about something make me think about it more? A: That's the pink elephant paradox or ironic process theory in action. Daniel Wegner's research shows that suppression and monitoring are two competing mental processes that both take cognitive effort, and the monitoring process ensures the thought keeps coming back; this episode explains how we can avoid this paradox.   Full transcript here   Key moments:  [00:30] Recap of the series: four areas — letting go of intrusive thoughts, stories we tell ourselves, the myth of closure, and letting go of control [01:00] Rachman's definition of intrusive thoughts: repeatedly occurring, unwanted, difficult to control, accompanied by subjective discomfort [02:30] Study: ~94% of ~777 college students reported at least one intrusive thought in the last three months — Henry: one? Aimee: the 6% were probably lying [03:30] Most important research finding: the content of intrusive thoughts doesn't predict worse outcomes or specific diagnoses — it's not what the thought is, it's how often it shows up and how tightly we grab it [04:30] The skill: loosen the grip, and thoughts show up less — or at least take up less energy [06:30] We've been trained to do the opposite — to suppress and push away intrusive thoughts — which makes them stickier [07:00] The pink elephant paradox: don't think of a pink elephant... and everyone thinks of a pink elephant [07:30] Ironic process theory — Daniel Wegner; Dostoevsky earlier: "Try not to think of a polar bear, and you will see that cursed thing every minute" [08:00] The mechanism: two competing processes — suppression (distracting from the thought) and monitoring (checking if it came back) — both take cognitive effort [08:30] Whac-A-Mole as a metaphor: monitoring for moles (the intrusive thought) and whacking them (suppression) are both effortful and exhausting — and there's no Laffy Taffy reward at the end [11:00] Henry: start small — learn to recognize a thought as a thought; watch it arise and watch it recede if allowed [13:30] The real cost of intrusive ruminative thinking: complete absence of presence; those small moments add up over a lifetime [14:00] We can't be in two places at once: lost in thought and in the present moment — training and practice help us distinguish them [14:30] Somatic marker theory and embodied cognition: physical sensations can surge before an intrusive thought arises and make the thought feel more real [15:00] Affective realism: how we're feeling influences how we perceive the world — when feeling bad, the world looks worse; when feeling good, it looks better [15:30] Hangry as affective realism: hunger shifts perception of strangers more negatively; evolutionarily sensible, but not helpful without awareness [16:30] Interoceptive ability: the capacity to detect your own internal body sensations — heartbeat, breathing rate, pain, hunger; accurate noticing leads to accurate interpretation [17:30] Better interoceptive ability = less likely to have affect bleed into perception; the world doesn't look more irritating just because you are [18:30] We can work on interoceptive ability — Joy Lab Experiments do this every week [20:00] Catching emotional escalation early: a panic attack or emotional storm doesn't start at full intensity; if you notice the early subtle signs — tightening, constriction, vague sense something is wrong — and turn attention toward it, it often dissipates [21:00] Most escalation after the first surge is something we do to ourselves; you can't suppress the first unwanted thought — it comes from the unconscious — but once it shows up, you have choices [21:30] Do you believe it? Reinforce it by repeating or replaying it? Or notice it and let it move on? If you grab it, you give it power. If you touch it lightly, it passes [22:30] Aimee: this is rooted in self-compassion; thoughts don't arise from you alone — you're a thread in a big web; your thoughts are influenced by everything around you [23:30] The chips-and-canned-meat study: participants in a canned meat room predicted they'd like chips much more than those in a chocolate room — but actual enjoyment leveled out once they were eating [24:30] Two lessons: first, our environment seeds our thoughts (canned meat caused intrusive thoughts); second, when the thought was no longer influencing them, the prediction dissolved — present-moment experience replaced the thought [25:30] Humility: intrusive thoughts are often just a weird random mash of pink elephants, true crime, stress response, canned meat, past memories, anxiety — not a statement about moral character [26:00] Anne Lamott: "You can get the monkey off your back, but the circus never leaves town" — the circus gets quieter with practice, but it keeps coming [27:00] Henry ties it back to Letting Go: not pretending the thought never happened, not fighting or shoving it away; noticing it, naming it as just a thought, letting attention move on — gently [27:30] Judgment and self-criticism make thoughts sticky; self-compassion is what lets them pass through [28:00] The side effect: build this skill and thoughts escalate into full storms less often; when they do show up, you return to center quicker — it's preventive [28:30] This is a skill — the first 100 times feel awkward; by the 200th time it feels natural; you're literally rewiring how your brain responds [29:00] Join the Experiment for this episode; next episode: moving from single thoughts to the bigger stories we tell ourselves [29:30] Closing wisdom from Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett: "Human beings are not at the mercy of mythical emotion circuits buried deep within animalistic parts of our highly evolved brain: we are architects of our own experience.   Sources and Notes for Our Element of Letting Go: Alloy & Abramson. (1979). Judgment of contingency in depressed and nondepressed students: Sadder but wiser? 10.1037//0096-3445.108.4.441 Botvinick & Cohen. (1998). Rubber hands "feel" touch that eyes see. doi.org/10.1038/35784 Clark & Radomsky (2014). Introduction: A global perspective on unwanted intrusive thoughts. 10.1016/j.jocrd.2014.02.001 Damasio, A. R. (1994). Descartes' error: Emotion, reason, and the human brain. G. P. Putnam's Sons. de Mello, A. (1990). Awareness. Doubleday. Epictetus. (2014). Discourses, fragments, handbook (R. Hard, Trans.). Oxford University Press. Feldman, et al. (2023). Interoceptive ability moderates the effect of physiological reactivity on social judgment. 10.1037/emo0001210 Freud, S. (1957). Mourning and melancholia. In J. Strachey (Ed. & Trans.), The standard edition of the complete psychological works of Sigmund Freud (Vol. 14, pp. 243–258). Hogarth Press. (Original work published 1917) Gottlieb, L. (2019). Maybe you should talk to someone: A therapist, her therapist, and our lives revealed. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Jung, C. G. (1962). Commentary. In R. Wilhelm (Trans.), The secret of the golden flower: A Chinese book of life (C. F. Baynes, Trans.; Rev. ed.). Harcourt, Brace & World. (Original work published 1929) Klass, D., Silverman, P. R., & Nickman, S. L. (Eds.). (1996). Continuing bonds: New understandings of grief. Taylor & Francis. Kübler-Ross, E. (1969). On death and dying. Macmillan. Langer, E. J. (1975). The illusion of control. doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.32.2.311 Langer, E. J. (2009). Counterclockwise. Ballantine Books. Luo, M. (2004, February 27). For exercise in New York futility, push button. The New York Times. https://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/27/nyregion/for-exercise-in-new-york-futility-push-button.html MacCormack & Lindquis (2019). Feeling hangry? When hunger is conceptualized as emotion. 10.1037/emo0000422 Mauss, et al. (2011). Can seeking happiness make people unhappy?

We define "Letting Go" as the skill of loosening your grip on the thoughts and behaviors that keep you anchored to the past, resisting the present, or anxious about the future. And the goal isn't just to be more present, but to be less burdened and exhausted by the endless effort to edit what happened, control what's happening, and predict what's coming next. When you stop pouring energy into all of that, you get that energy back. We also describe letting go surrendering to what is or allowing things to be as they actually are. Importantly, letting go is not avoidance, withdrawal, or slamming the door and suppressing emotion. Letting go is closer to what psychologists call psychological flexibility and non-attachment, which means you engage fully with your experiences and feelings without being controlled by the outcomes. You still feel; you just choose what to do with the feeling instead of being driven by it. The big takeaway is that, again, this is a skill. It doesn't matter how terrible you think you are at letting go, it simply takes practice. In our episodes and experiments for this Element of "letting go," we'll cover four areas where the grip tends to be tightest: unhelpful thoughts and rumination, the bigger stories we tell ourselves, the myth that we need closure to move on, and maybe the hardest of all... letting go of control. Tune in for each episode to help you build your skill of letting go and recapture some energy and freedom.    About: The Joy Lab Podcast is an Ambie-nominated podcast that blends science and soul to help you cope better with stress, anxiety, and depression. It's hosted by integrative psychiatrist Dr. Henry Emmons and holistic mental health researcher Dr. Aimee Prasek.   Bonus: spread some joy and keep this podcast ad-free by donating (Joy Lab is powered by the nonprofit Pathways North and your donations are tax-deductible).   Listen & follow the Joy Lab Podcast on your favorite listening app: Spotify | Apple | YouTube   Full transcript here   Sources and Notes for Our Element of Letting Go: Alloy & Abramson. (1979). Judgment of contingency in depressed and nondepressed students: Sadder but wiser? 10.1037//0096-3445.108.4.441 Botvinick & Cohen. (1998). Rubber hands "feel" touch that eyes see. doi.org/10.1038/35784 Clark & Radomsky (2014). Introduction: A global perspective on unwanted intrusive thoughts. 10.1016/j.jocrd.2014.02.001 Damasio, A. R. (1994). Descartes' error: Emotion, reason, and the human brain. G. P. Putnam's Sons. de Mello, A. (1990). Awareness. Doubleday. Epictetus. (2014). Discourses, fragments, handbook (R. Hard, Trans.). Oxford University Press. Feldman, et al. (2023). Interoceptive ability moderates the effect of physiological reactivity on social judgment. 10.1037/emo0001210 Freud, S. (1957). Mourning and melancholia. In J. Strachey (Ed. & Trans.), The standard edition of the complete psychological works of Sigmund Freud (Vol. 14, pp. 243–258). Hogarth Press. (Original work published 1917) Gottlieb, L. (2019). Maybe you should talk to someone: A therapist, her therapist, and our lives revealed. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Jung, C. G. (1962). Commentary. In R. Wilhelm (Trans.), The secret of the golden flower: A Chinese book of life (C. F. Baynes, Trans.; Rev. ed.). Harcourt, Brace & World. (Original work published 1929) Klass, D., Silverman, P. R., & Nickman, S. L. (Eds.). (1996). Continuing bonds: New understandings of grief. Taylor & Francis. Kübler-Ross, E. (1969). On death and dying. Macmillan. Langer, E. J. (1975). The illusion of control. doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.32.2.311 Langer, E. J. (2009). Counterclockwise. Ballantine Books. Luo, M. (2004, February 27). For exercise in New York futility, push button. The New York Times. https://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/27/nyregion/for-exercise-in-new-york-futility-push-button.html MacCormack & Lindquis (2019). Feeling hangry? When hunger is conceptualized as emotion. 10.1037/emo0000422 Mauss, et al. (2011). Can seeking happiness make people unhappy? Paradoxical effects of valuing happiness. doi.org/10.1037/a0022010 Morewedge, et al. (2010). Consuming experience: Why affective forecasters overestimate comparative value. 10.1016/j.jesp.2010.07.010  Moulding, et al. (2014). Part 2. They scare because we care: The relationship between obsessive intrusive thoughts and appraisals and control strategies across 15 cities. 10.1016/j.jocrd.2014.02.006 Nhat Hanh, T. (1998). Fragrant palm leaves: Journals, 1962–1966. Parallax Press. Palmer, P. J. (2016, April 27). The gift of presence, the perils of advice. The On Being Project. https://onbeing.org/blog/the-gift-of-presence-the-perils-of-advice/ Paumgarten, N. (2008, April 21). Up and then down: The lives of elevators. The New Yorker. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2008/04/21/up-and-then-down Rachman, S. (1981). Part I. Unwanted intrusive cognitions. 10.1016/0146-6402(81)90007-2 Radomsky, et al. (2014). Part 1—You can run but you can't hide: Intrusive thoughts on six continents. Journal of Obsessive-Compulsive and Related Disorders, 3(3), 269–279. 10.1016/j.jocrd.2013.09.002 Siegel, et al. (2018). Seeing what you feel: Affect drives visual perception of structurally neutral faces. 10.1177/0956797617741718 Singer, M. A. (2007). The untethered soul: The journey beyond yourself. New Harbinger Publications. Quoidbach, J., Gilbert, D. T., & Wilson, T. D. (2013). The end of history illusion. 10.1126/science.1229294 Wegner, et al. (1987). Paradoxical effects of thought suppression. 10.1037/0022-3514.53.1.5 Wilson & Gilbert. 2005). Affective forecasting: Knowing what to want. 10.1111/j.0963-7214.2005.00355.x   Questions this episode was made for: Q: What does "letting go" actually mean? Isn't it just telling yourself not to care? A: Letting go isn't about suppressing feelings, slamming doors, or becoming detached; it's closer to psychological flexibility and allowing, where you engage fully with your experiences without being controlled by the outcomes you're gripping. Importantly, letting go is a skill and this series will help you build it.    Q: Why is letting go so hard even when I know intellectually that holding on isn't helping me? A: We hear you! It's hard because your brain is doing exactly what it was wired to do; the tiger-and-tree-branch story we told in the episode illustrates it perfectly: We grip what feels familiar and known even when it's limiting us, because uncertain ground feels more dangerous than a bad branch; the good news is that letting go is a learnable skill, and the series ahead covers the four areas where the grip tends to be tightest.   Key moments: [00:00] A working definition of "letting go:" the skill of loosening your grip on thoughts and behaviors that keep you anchored to the past, resisting the present, or anxious about the future [01:00] The impact: being less burdened and exhausted by the effort to edit what happened, control what's happening, and predict what's coming next — and reclaiming that energy [03:00] Another frame: surrendering to what is; allowing things to be as they are and actually gives more agency [05:30] What Letting Go is NOT: avoidance, withdrawal, suppressing feelings, rejection, disengagement — it doesn't mean you stop caring [06:00] Letting Go enables psychological flexibility and non-attachment — engaging fully with experiences without grasping at outcomes [08:00] The tiger and tree branch story [10:00] Letting go of what feels familiar can feel scarier than staying stuck with something that isn't working [10:30] This is learnable; Joy Lab will work on it together [11:30] Four upcoming areas: (1) letting go of unhelpful thoughts. (2) Letting go of the bigger stories we tell ourselves. (3) The myth that we need closure. (4) Letting go of control.  [14:00] Closing wisdom from Anthony de Mello: "You don't have to add anything in order to be happy; you've got to drop something."   If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts!    Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program. Please see our terms for more information. If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call the NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-6264 available Monday through Friday, 10 a.m. – 10 p.m., ET. OR text "HelpLine" to 62640 or email NAMI at [email protected]. Visit NAMI for more. You can also call or text SAMHSA at 988 or chat 988lifeline.org. Find more mental health resources here. 

If you've listened to a wellness or health podcast lately, you've probably heard loads of advertisements. We've decided that ads are not a good fit for Joy Lab because they can steal your focus from the important wellbeing-boosting work you do here. Of course, refusing to put ads in the podcast means we need support in other ways. Here are some ways you can join in our nonprofit mission, help keep Joy Lab going, and spread more resilience across our communities: Subscribe to Joy Lab Experiments. These are the hands-on resilience practices that pair with each episode. You can subscribe in Apple podcasts for $4.99/month with a free one-week trial. Spotify and other platforms are coming soon! Stay tuned for updates to Joy Lab+ (formerly the Joy Lab Program). You can receive Joy Lab+ with a monthly donation to our nonprofit. You'll get Experiments plus lots of other perks. We'll have this ready soon, but be sure to sign up for the newsletter at JoyLab.coach so you're in the loop. We'll soon launch our growth and mission partnerships. These are for organizations, companies, foundations, or individuals who want to make a bigger impact on mental health access. These will launch in the next few weeks and we only have 24 spots available! Head to JoyLab.coach or reach out through the website to learn more.  Most of all, thanks for being part of this resilience-boosting community. Your participation matters. It matters to your own mental health and it spreads out to others. Stay with us for our new Element of Letting Go, where we'll focus on releasing unhelpful thoughts, limiting stories, the "need" for closure, and control.  About: The Joy Lab Podcast is an Ambie-nominated podcast that blends science and soul to help you cope better with stress, anxiety, and depression. It's hosted by integrative psychiatrist Dr. Henry Emmons and holistic mental health researcher Dr. Aimee Prasek.   Questions this episode was made for: Q: How is Joy Lab funded if there are no ads? A: Joy Lab is powered by the nonprofit Pathways North. It's kept ad-free intentionally and runs on listener support through Experiments subscriptions, Joy Lab+, donations, grants, and additional partnerships; this episode explains ways to get involved. Q: What's the difference between Joy Lab Experiments and Joy Lab+? A: Experiments are the hands-on practices that pair with each episode, now available on Apple Podcasts for $4.99/month (coming soon to Spotify and others!); Joy Lab+ is a more full experience with additional resources and features. Existing Program members don't need to do anything when it launches.   Bonus: spread some joy and keep this podcast ad-free by donating (Joy Lab is powered by the nonprofit Pathways North and your donations are tax-deductible).   Listen & follow the Joy Lab Podcast on your favorite listening app: Spotify | Apple | YouTube   Full transcript here   Related Joy Lab Episodes: Enoughness Series: Ep. 287: Who Are You Trying to Be Enough For? The Psychology of Being Enough & Building Self-Worth Ep. 286: It's OK to Be Wrong: Releasing Perfectionism & Building the Skill of Knowing Enough   Ep. 285: Why Doing Enough Is Enough + Why Perfectionism Predicts Burnout, Depression, & Anxiety, Not Performance Ep. 284: Having Enough: Why Acquiring More Will Never Fill the Hole in Your Self-Worth Ep. 283: You Are Enough: The Science and Practices of Enoughness Grief Series starts here:  Ep. 248: Grief, Growth, & The Wholeness of Being Human   Ep. 239: Caring What Others Think Isn't Your Weakness    Key moments: [00:30] Preview of the Letting Go series: unhelpful thoughts and rumination, stories we tell ourselves, the myth of needing closure, and letting go of control [01:00] Why Joy Lab is ad-free — intentional choice; ads interrupt the work and can make you feel worse about yourself by design [01:30] Joy Lab is powered by Pathways North, a nonprofit focused on increasing access to empowering mental health tools [02:00] How to support: Joy Lab Experiments now available on Apple Podcasts — $4.99/month, cheaper annually, one-week free trial [02:30] Pairing an episode with an Experiment week after week is the consistent, sustainable approach that builds real resilience [03:00] Joy Lab+ — the updated name for the Joy Lab Program, coming in a few weeks with new features; existing members, nothing changes [03:30] New: mission and growth partnership spots opening for organizations, companies, foundations, or individuals who want to make a bigger impact — sign up for the newsletter or contact through the website [05:00] You matter — thank you for being here   Sources and Notes for Our Element of Enoughness: Bellam, S., Curran, T., Hill, A. P., & Stoeber, J. (2025). Perfectionism and work performance: A meta-analysis. https://doi.org/10.1111/joop.12570 Carver, C. S., Lawrence, J. W., & Scheier, M. F. (1999). Self-discrepancies and affect: Incorporating the role of feared selves. https://doi.org/10.1177/0146167299025007002  Crocker, J., & Park, L. E. (2004). The costly pursuit of self-esteem. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.131.3.392  Crocker, J., & Park, L. E. (2004). Reaping the benefits of pursuing self-esteem without the costs? Reply to Schmuck and Sheldon (2004), Sheldon et al. (2004), Pyszczynski et al. (2004), and Kernis (2004). https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.430 Crocker, J., Karpinski, A., Quinn, D. M., & Chase, S. K. (2003). When grades determine self-worth: Consequences of contingent self-worth for male and female engineering and psychology majors. https://doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.85.3.507 Crocker, J., & Wolfe, C. T. (2001). Contingencies of self-worth. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-295X.108.3.593 Deci, E. L., & Ryan, R. M. (2004). Avoiding death or engaging life as accounts of meaning and culture: Comment on Pyszczynski et al. (2004). https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.473 Freudenberger, H. J. (1974). Staff burn-out. Journal of Social Issues, 30(1), 159–165. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1540-4560.1974.tb00706.x Harari, D., Swider, B. W., Bujold Steed, L., & Breidenthal, A. P. (2018). Is perfect good? A meta-analysis of perfectionism in the workplace. https://doi.org/10.1037/apl0000324 Hewitt, P. L., & Flett, G. L. (1991). Perfectionism in the self and social contexts: Conceptualization, assessment, and association with psychopathology. https://doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.60.3.456 Higgins, E. T. (1987). Self-discrepancy: A theory relating self and affect. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-295X.94.3.319 Joseph, S., & Linley, P. A. (2005). Positive adjustment to threatening events: An organismic valuing theory of growth through adversity. https://doi.org/10.1037/1089-2680.9.3.262 Kernis, M. H. (2005). Measuring self-esteem in context: The importance of stability of self-esteem in psychological functioning. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1467-6494.2005.00359.x Kirkpatrick, L. A., & Ellis, B. J. (2001). An evolutionary-psychological approach to self-esteem: Multiple domains and multiple functions. In G. J. O. Fletcher & M. S. Clark (Eds.), Blackwell handbook of social psychology: Interpersonal processes (pp. 411–436). Blackwell. Leary, M. R. (2000). Sociometer theory and the pursuit of relational value: Getting to the root of self-esteem. https://doi.org/10.1080/14792772043000045  Maslach, C. (1981). The measurement of experienced burnout. https://doi.org/10.1002/job.4030020205   Park, L. E., & Crocker, J. (2005). Attachment styles and contingencies of self-worth. https://doi.org/10.1177/0146167205277030 Pyszczynski, T., Greenberg, J., Solomon, S., Arndt, J., & Schimel, J. (2004). Why do people need self-esteem? https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.435 Schaufeli, W. B., Leiter, M. P., & Maslach, C. (2009). Burnout: 35 years of research and practice. https://doi.org/10.1108/13620430910966406  Lynn Twist's Book: The Soul of Money   If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts!    Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program. Please see our terms for more information. If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call the NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-6264 available Monday through Friday, 10 a.m. – 10 p.m., ET. OR text "HelpLine" to 62640 or email NAMI at [email protected]. Visit NAMI for more. You can also call or text SAMHSA at 988 or chat 988lifeline.org. Find more mental health resources here. 

Are you struggling with not feeling like "enough?" This is actually a common feeling that can get wrapped up or conflated with stress, burnout, depression, anxiety, and so many other mental health struggles. The good news is that no matter what you're dealing with, you do have some influence here and can work on skills to build our sense of self-worth and enoughness. We'll dig into Self-discrepancy theory, which explains how the gaps between our actual, ideal, and ought selves can stir up dejection or anxiety. We'll also explore sociometer theory and the metaphor for self-esteem as a fuel gauge that rises with appreciation and drops with rejection. The truth is, these calculations and gauges will always fluctuate. The real work isn't eliminating the gauges or the dips, but building an internal reserve, a sense of enoughness, that doesn't depend on outside refueling.   About: The Joy Lab Podcast is an Ambie-nominated podcast that blends science and soul to help you cope better with stress, anxiety, and depression. It's hosted by integrative psychiatrist Dr. Henry Emmons and holistic mental health researcher Dr. Aimee Prasek.   Bonus: spread some joy and keep this podcast ad-free by donating (Joy Lab is powered by the nonprofit Pathways North and your donations are tax-deductible).   Listen & follow the Joy Lab Podcast on your favorite listening app: Spotify | Apple | YouTube   Full transcript here   Sources and Notes for Our Element of Enoughness: Related Joy Lab Episodes: Enoughness Series: Ep. 215: Are You Curious to Learn or Confirm?  Ep. 285: Why Doing Enough Is Enough + Why Perfectionism Predicts Burnout, Depression, & Anxiety, Not Performance Ep. 284: Having Enough: Why Acquiring More Will Never Fill the Hole in Your Self-Worth Ep. 283: You Are Enough: The Science and Practices of Enoughness Grief Series starts here: Ep. 248: Grief, Growth, & The Wholeness of Being Human  Ep. 239: Caring What Others Think Isn't Your Weakness Bellam, S., Curran, T., Hill, A. P., & Stoeber, J. (2025). Perfectionism and work performance: A meta-analysis. https://doi.org/10.1111/joop.12570 Carver, C. S., Lawrence, J. W., & Scheier, M. F. (1999). Self-discrepancies and affect: Incorporating the role of feared selves. https://doi.org/10.1177/0146167299025007002  Crocker, J., & Park, L. E. (2004). The costly pursuit of self-esteem. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.131.3.392  Crocker, J., & Park, L. E. (2004). Reaping the benefits of pursuing self-esteem without the costs? Reply to Schmuck and Sheldon (2004), Sheldon et al. (2004), Pyszczynski et al. (2004), and Kernis (2004). https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.430 Crocker, J., Karpinski, A., Quinn, D. M., & Chase, S. K. (2003). When grades determine self-worth: Consequences of contingent self-worth for male and female engineering and psychology majors. https://doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.85.3.507 Crocker, J., & Wolfe, C. T. (2001). Contingencies of self-worth. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-295X.108.3.593 Deci, E. L., & Ryan, R. M. (2004). Avoiding death or engaging life as accounts of meaning and culture: Comment on Pyszczynski et al. (2004). https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.473 Freudenberger, H. J. (1974). Staff burn-out. Journal of Social Issues, 30(1), 159–165. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1540-4560.1974.tb00706.x Harari, D., Swider, B. W., Bujold Steed, L., & Breidenthal, A. P. (2018). Is perfect good? A meta-analysis of perfectionism in the workplace. https://doi.org/10.1037/apl0000324 Hewitt, P. L., & Flett, G. L. (1991). Perfectionism in the self and social contexts: Conceptualization, assessment, and association with psychopathology. https://doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.60.3.456 Higgins, E. T. (1987). Self-discrepancy: A theory relating self and affect. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-295X.94.3.319 Joseph, S., & Linley, P. A. (2005). Positive adjustment to threatening events: An organismic valuing theory of growth through adversity. https://doi.org/10.1037/1089-2680.9.3.262 Kernis, M. H. (2005). Measuring self-esteem in context: The importance of stability of self-esteem in psychological functioning. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1467-6494.2005.00359.x Kirkpatrick, L. A., & Ellis, B. J. (2001). An evolutionary-psychological approach to self-esteem: Multiple domains and multiple functions. In G. J. O. Fletcher & M. S. Clark (Eds.), Blackwell handbook of social psychology: Interpersonal processes (pp. 411–436). Blackwell. Leary, M. R. (2000). Sociometer theory and the pursuit of relational value: Getting to the root of self-esteem. https://doi.org/10.1080/14792772043000045  Maslach, C. (1981). The measurement of experienced burnout. https://doi.org/10.1002/job.4030020205   Park, L. E., & Crocker, J. (2005). Attachment styles and contingencies of self-worth. https://doi.org/10.1177/0146167205277030 Pyszczynski, T., Greenberg, J., Solomon, S., Arndt, J., & Schimel, J. (2004). Why do people need self-esteem? https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.435 Schaufeli, W. B., Leiter, M. P., & Maslach, C. (2009). Burnout: 35 years of research and practice. https://doi.org/10.1108/13620430910966406  Lynn Twist's Book: The Soul of Money   Questions this episode was made for: Q: Why do I feel like I'm never enough no matter what I achieve or how hard I try? A: This episode maps some psychology of enoughness: self-discrepancy theory shows how unconscious gaps between your actual, ideal, and ought selves generate specific emotional consequences (depression from the ideal gap, anxiety from the ought gap); sociometer theory explains how self-esteem tracks with perceived relational value rather than objective achievement (and why negative feedback stings harder than positive feedback heals); the path toward enoughness is building an internal source of worth rather than depending on the gauge.   Q: Is it possible to genuinely feel like enough without abandoning the desire to grow or improve? A: Yes. Fighting to be someone different from who you are keeps you stuck; it's through accepting who you are that change and growth actually become possible. Self-worth, self-acceptance, and self-compassion are key factors for behavior change.    Key moments: [00:30] The central question: who are we trying to be enough for? A parent, a boss, a child, ourselves? [01:30] Self-discrepancy theory: three representations of self — actual, ideal, and ought — and how gaps between them generate negative emotions   [03:30] These calculations often run below conscious awareness; self-discrepancy theory maps which gaps produce which feelings [04:00] Actual vs. ideal gap: tends to produce dejection-related emotions — sadness, depression, shame, embarrassment [04:30] Actual vs. ought gap: tends to produce agitation-related emotions — anxiety, fear, guilt, feeling threatened [05:00] Feeling not enough isn't usually just one thing — it's multiple calculations happening at once, often measuring us against someone else's ruler [06:00] Henry: how accurately can any of us describe our actual selves? [07:30] Henry: we'll never become our ideal selves or have the ideal life — this might be another Gate of Grief worth naming and grieving [09:00] Toxic positivity pushback: this isn't about not dreaming big; it's about not attaching your worth to whether you get there [10:00] Sociometer theory: self-esteem isn't primarily about how good you think you are at things — it's about how valued you feel in your relationships [12:00] When we don't embrace our own worth, the gauge takes over how we see and value ourselves [13:00] Henry: intermittent reinforcement — if self-esteem depends on occasional good feedback and tanks on bad feedback, we're psychologically vulnerable [14:00] Rejection sensitivity: a potent clinical cause of anxiety and depression; the possibility of rejection alone can shrink a life significantly [15:30] Aimee: we're wired to care what others think; caring isn't the problem; the problem is being unconscious to how much it drives us [16:30] The gauges don't need to be broken — they're functioning; the goal is to not attach our worth to them [17:30] The sense of enoughness is an oasis of self-compassion and inner knowing — you matter, you're a person of value, even when rejected, even when empty [20:30] This isn't solitary work: support, community, and daily practices all help build the internal gas station [22:00] The happiness paradox: research shows that highly valuing happiness — treating it as something to actively pursue at all times — leads to feeling less happy and worse long-term wellbeing outcomes [24:30] Henry: the difference between valuing joy and grasping at happiness; grasping operates from scarcity — the very grasping creates stress [26:00] Series takeaways: feeling not enough is tragically common; the antidote is self-compassion; most of us hold an unreachable ideal — our job isn't to reach it, it's to let go [27:00] Preview of the next two Elements: Letting Go (October) and Self-Compassion (November) — more tools to embrace Enoughness [28:00] Closing wisdom from Brené Brown: "You are imperfect, you are wired for struggle, but you are worthy of love and belonging."   If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts!    Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program. Please see our terms for more information. If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call the NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-6264 available Monday through Friday, 10 a.m. – 10 p.m., ET. OR text "HelpLine" to 62640 or email NAMI at [email protected]. Visit NAMI for more. You can also call or text SAMHSA at 988 or chat 988lifeline.org. Find more mental health reso

What does it means to know enough, and why do so many of us have our sense of self-worth tangled up with the need to appear certain, informed, and never wrong? The common obstacles of perfectionism, yearning for power and to feel "special," along with anxiety are fueled by a world of constant information, public scrutiny, and the subtle pressure to prove our intelligence. It makes a tough environment to come back to the wisdom Socrates shared 2,500 years ago: real wisdom lives in knowing what you don't know.  The good news: getting comfortable with being wrong is a practice, not a personality trait. And the more you do it (starting small and safe), then the more your nervous system learns that doubt isn't dangerous.   About: The Joy Lab Podcast is an Ambie-nominated podcast that blends science and soul to help you cope better with stress, anxiety, and depression. It's hosted by integrative psychiatrist Dr. Henry Emmons and holistic mental health researcher Dr. Aimee Prasek.   Bonus: spread some joy and keep this podcast ad-free by donating (Joy Lab is powered by the nonprofit Pathways North and your donations are tax-deductible).   Listen & follow the Joy Lab Podcast on your favorite listening app: Spotify | Apple | YouTube   Full transcript here   Sources and Notes for Our Element of Enoughness: Related Joy Lab Episodes: Ep. 215: Are You Curious to Learn or Confirm?  Ep. 285: Why Doing Enough Is Enough + Why Perfectionism Predicts Burnout, Depression, & Anxiety, Not Performance Ep. 284: Having Enough: Why Acquiring More Will Never Fill the Hole in Your Self-Worth Ep. 283: You Are Enough: The Science and Practices of Enoughness Bellam, S., Curran, T., Hill, A. P., & Stoeber, J. (2025). Perfectionism and work performance: A meta-analysis. https://doi.org/10.1111/joop.12570 Carver, C. S., Lawrence, J. W., & Scheier, M. F. (1999). Self-discrepancies and affect: Incorporating the role of feared selves. https://doi.org/10.1177/0146167299025007002  Crocker, J., & Park, L. E. (2004). The costly pursuit of self-esteem. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.131.3.392  Crocker, J., & Park, L. E. (2004). Reaping the benefits of pursuing self-esteem without the costs? Reply to Schmuck and Sheldon (2004), Sheldon et al. (2004), Pyszczynski et al. (2004), and Kernis (2004). https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.430 Crocker, J., Karpinski, A., Quinn, D. M., & Chase, S. K. (2003). When grades determine self-worth: Consequences of contingent self-worth for male and female engineering and psychology majors. https://doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.85.3.507 Crocker, J., & Wolfe, C. T. (2001). Contingencies of self-worth. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-295X.108.3.593 Deci, E. L., & Ryan, R. M. (2004). Avoiding death or engaging life as accounts of meaning and culture: Comment on Pyszczynski et al. (2004). https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.473 Freudenberger, H. J. (1974). Staff burn-out. Journal of Social Issues, 30(1), 159–165. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1540-4560.1974.tb00706.x  Harari, D., Swider, B. W., Bujold Steed, L., & Breidenthal, A. P. (2018). Is perfect good? A meta-analysis of perfectionism in the workplace. https://doi.org/10.1037/apl0000324 Hewitt, P. L., & Flett, G. L. (1991). Perfectionism in the self and social contexts: Conceptualization, assessment, and association with psychopathology. https://doi.org/10.1037/0022-3514.60.3.456 Higgins, E. T. (1987). Self-discrepancy: A theory relating self and affect. https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-295X.94.3.319 Joseph, S., & Linley, P. A. (2005). Positive adjustment to threatening events: An organismic valuing theory of growth through adversity. https://doi.org/10.1037/1089-2680.9.3.262 Kernis, M. H. (2005). Measuring self-esteem in context: The importance of stability of self-esteem in psychological functioning. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1467-6494.2005.00359.x Kirkpatrick, L. A., & Ellis, B. J. (2001). An evolutionary-psychological approach to self-esteem: Multiple domains and multiple functions. In G. J. O. Fletcher & M. S. Clark (Eds.), Blackwell handbook of social psychology: Interpersonal processes (pp. 411–436). Blackwell. Leary, M. R. (2000). Sociometer theory and the pursuit of relational value: Getting to the root of self-esteem. https://doi.org/10.1080/14792772043000045  Maslach, C. (1981). The measurement of experienced burnout. https://doi.org/10.1002/job.4030020205   Park, L. E., & Crocker, J. (2005). Attachment styles and contingencies of self-worth. https://doi.org/10.1177/0146167205277030 Pyszczynski, T., Greenberg, J., Solomon, S., Arndt, J., & Schimel, J. (2004). Why do people need self-esteem? https://doi.org/10.1037/0033-2909.130.3.435 Schaufeli, W. B., Leiter, M. P., & Maslach, C. (2009). Burnout: 35 years of research and practice. https://doi.org/10.1108/13620430910966406  Lynn Twist's Book: The Soul of Money   Questions this episode was made for: Q: Why do I feel like I have to know everything and never be wrong... and how do I stop? A: This episode traces the drive to perform knowledge back to things like anxiety about judgment and the desire for specialness, along with the amygdala hijack that makes being wrong feel like a survival threat, and offers a practical strategy: exposure. Practice being wrong in small, safe ways until your nervous system recalibrates and realizes it isn't catastrophic.   Q: Can you actually be too certain? Isn't confidence a good thing? A: Being too certain can be detrimental. This episode unpacks the differences between genuine knowledge, intellectual humility, and the performance of certainty for reasons outside of genuine knowledge.     Key moments: [00:30] Setting the scene: Athens, 2,500 years ago — a friend asks the Oracle of Delphi who is the wisest person in the city [02:30] Socrates' conclusion: maybe he was wiser because he knew what he didn't know, and didn't shy away from that unknowing; kept asking questions [03:30] Intellectual humility: holding your beliefs loosely, staying curious, genuinely believing you might be wrong [04:00] The Enoughness layer: the belief that you have to prove your knowledge to be worthy; knowing more makes you enough [05:00] It's exhausting to feel like you need to know all the answers, to be right all the time — and none of us can actually succeed at it [05:30] Two drivers: anxiety (fear of being judged for being wrong) and the desire for power or certainty as protection from vulnerability [07:00] The desire for specialness: inflating self-esteem through the performance of knowing it all [07:30] Research on narcissism and conspiratorial thinking: conspiracy theories offer the feeling of uniqueness — "I know something you don't" [10:00] Henry: a small pitch for narcissism — a little bit isn't bad; we all want to feel special sometimes; full-blown narcissists wouldn't be listening to this anyway [11:00] The belonging need: we don't have to stand out to belong, but we do need to be seen as worthy of inclusion — so we avoid sticking our neck out and being wrong in front of others [11:30] Social media amplifies this: anything put out publicly can be validated or challenged — rarely challenged without feeling diminished [14:00] The internet requires a new kind of resilience and emotional regulation we haven't trained before in human history — much of which is what Joy Lab works on [15:30] Being wrong is so often worse in our heads than in real life — especially when we're willing to admit it; humility actually strengthens connection [17:30] Henry: when the fear of being wrong tips into clinical anxiety or mood problems — perfectionism creates a downward spiral [18:00] The amygdala hijack: the midbrain can't distinguish between a perceived threat (being wrong in front of others) and a real physical threat — fight or flight activates as though lives are at stake [18:30] How to get out: exposure — practice being wrong in small, safe ways; when your nervous system learns it isn't catastrophic, it recalibrates  [20:30] Good news: we have many opportunities every day to practice being wrong — the more you check in, the more you notice them [21:00] The Experiment for this episode works on getting more comfortable with being wrong   If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts!    Please remember that this content is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to provide medical advice and is not a replacement for advice and treatment from a medical professional. Please consult your doctor or other qualified health professional before beginning any diet change, supplement, or lifestyle program. Please see our terms for more information. If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. Call the NAMI HelpLine: 1-800-950-6264 available Monday through Friday, 10 a.m. – 10 p.m., ET. OR text "HelpLine" to 62640 or email NAMI at [email protected]. Visit NAMI for more. You can also call or text SAMHSA at 988 or chat 988lifeline.org. Find more mental health resources here.