Making Sense of Martech

"We've seen companies locked into vendors for a decade with no way out." – Juan   Jacqueline and Juan kick off 2026 with a quick reality check: stepping away from screens feels great, but the Martech stack doesn't magically get simpler while you're gone. They get brutally practical, drawing on conversations with 300+ brand-side marketers to map the six biggest pain points emerging across enterprise teams right now.   They dig into why "Customer 360" is still mostly a fantasy, how integration complexity turns stacks into brittle Jenga towers, and why AI pressure is creating more chaos than value. From auto-renewal horror stories to redundant CDPs and initiatives chasing optics instead of ROI, the message is consistent: confidence comes from evidence, not experience bias — and the cost of getting it wrong has never been higher.   Sponsor   Brought to you by Hightouch — Went all-in on a big marketing suite but still struggling to get value? You're not alone. Our sponsor, Hightouch, spoke with 50+ enterprise teams and found 79% are frustrated by high costs, slow innovation, and rising complexity, often needing specialized teams just to keep things running. They'll share the full findings in a live webinar on February 12, plus what they're seeing from organizations updating their Martech stacks. Get the report and register! Timestamps   02:10 — An exclusive announcement for listeners 03:50 — Why experience-based advice keeps failing enterprise teams 07:45 — Six themes from 300+ marketer conversations: what's breaking in enterprise 10:50 — Data fragmentation and the myth of Customer 360 15:00 — Why evidence-based decisions are the only way forward 18:20 — Integration complexity, legacy sprawl, and cross-team coordination failures 26:15 — AI pressure without value: herd mentality of GenAI, risk, and bad customer experiences 31:00 — Adoption and operating model problems: utilization dropping, skills gaps growing 36:00 — Measurement, attribution, and ROI proof gaps: why nobody trusts the numbers 41:30 — Scaling personalization and execution speed: the bottlenecks no tool can fix Connect & Subscribe   Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Engage with the community on Reddit and follow Making Sense of Martech on LinkedIn, and don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube.   Leave a review, share with your team, and send us your questions and confessions. We may feature you in an upcoming episode! Always feel free to email us at podcast@themartechweekly.com.  Questions  Confessions  Reddit  

Email feels free, but the economics are brutal: zero-cost sending makes abuse infinitely scalable.    In this episode, Jacqueline sits down with Mariska and Jakub to unpack the "bot layer" that's quietly wrecking modern email: security scanners, crawlers, and malicious automation that inflate clicks, poison dashboards, and trigger the wrong automations. They get specific about why bad actors iterate faster than platforms, why "heuristic guesswork" leads to painful false positives, and how beehiiv opted for radical transparency by showing verified clicks alongside raw data. The conversation also jumps channels: Jakub argues RCS could undercut SMS on price and become the next high-volume abuse playground.   This episode was recorded in October 2025. Any references to global events were included as illustrative context, not as commentary on current news.   Sponsor Brought to you by Hightouch - the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at www.hightouch.com/msom.   Timestamps   01:20 – Worst unsubscribe nightmares, Roman aqueducts, and unexpected heroes 05:40 – Why "free" email creates systemic abuse (and why volume hides the bad actors) 08:06 – How threat actors bypass trust indicators 11:02 – The reality check: protection isn't getting easier, it's getting more complicated 19:02 – Defining non-human interactions (NHI) and bot detection 24:12 – Bot detection: definitive data vs heuristics, and why false positives hurt more 26:20 – Elevating verified human engagement at Beehiiv 33:13 – RCS vs SMS: the pricing lever that could supercharge abuse 46:14 - Global privacy legislation and the future of trust   Connect & Subscribe   Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Engage with the community on Reddit and follow Making Sense of Martech on LinkedIn, and don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube.    Leave a review, share with your team, and send us your questions and confessions. We may feature you in an upcoming episode!   Questions: https://themartechweekly.com/podcast/question/ Confessions: https://themartechweekly.com/podcast/confession-corner/  Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/MSoMPodcast/comments/1morng8/office_hours_questions/  

Farewell, 2025 — what a year.    It marked the revival of Making Sense of Martech, and we owe it all to you and the incredible guests who took a chance on us.   Here are a few standout moments. Wishing you happy holidays and a brilliant new year!   Connect & Subscribe Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Engage with the community on Reddit and follow Making Sense of Martech on LinkedIn, and don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube. Leave a review, share with your team, and send us your questions and confessions. We may feature you in an upcoming episode! https://theMartechweekly.com/podcast/question/ https://theMartechweekly.com/podcast/confession-corner/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MSoMPodcast/comments/1morng8/office_hours_questions/

Merry everything and more. Here's your very own present from us to you!   Connect & Subscribe Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Engage with the community on Reddit and follow Making Sense of Martech on LinkedIn, and don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube. Leave a review, share with your team, and send us your questions and confessions. We may feature you in an upcoming episode! https://theMartechweekly.com/podcast/question/ https://theMartechweekly.com/podcast/confession-corner/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MSoMPodcast/comments/1morng8/office_hours_questions/

As 2025 closes out, Juan and Jacqueline team up with Keanu Taylor, The Martech Weekly's Head of Research, to read the tea leaves on what 2026 has in store for marketing technology.  Their forecast is a "make or break" year in which the winners won't be the loudest early adopters, but the teams whose data and operating habits are clean enough for AI actually to stick. Keanu predicts a sharper split between the AI "haves" and "have-nots," with organizational readiness acting like gravity on every agent, model, and workflow.  The bet: 2026 will expose which stacks are built for decisions, not demos — and which ones were never ready for either. Timestamps 01:08 ExactTarget's 25th Birthday/Anniversary 03:54 Prediction 1: AI Agent Adoption and Readiness 10:35 Prediction 2: The Rise of AI Decisioning Silos 21:48 Prediction 3: CDP and CEP/ESP Stack Consolidation   Brought to you by Hightouch - the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at www.hightouch.com/msom. Connect & Subscribe   Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Engage with the community on Reddit and follow Making Sense of Martech on LinkedIn, and don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube.    Leave a review, share with your team, and send us your questions and confessions. We may feature you in an upcoming episode!   https://theMartechweekly.com/podcast/question/ https://theMartechweekly.com/podcast/confession-corner/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MSoMPodcast/comments/1morng8/office_hours_questions/

"Marketing to marketers is the dream job, but it makes everything that much more high stakes." – Jacqueline In this Hot Seat episode, Jacqueline sits down with Jason, CMO at Customer.io, to ask a simple question: what would it actually take to make martech cool again? Drawing on stints at Dropbox, BetterCloud, and Microsoft, he unpacks how brand storytelling, design, and experience can turn forgettable software into something people genuinely want to be around — and why so many teams lost that plot after the early cloud-era glory days.  From Bob Ross livestreams to "Raiders of the Lost Lifecycle," this is a playbook for injecting swagger back into marketing without sacrificing pipeline, rigor, or credibility.   Sponsor Brought to you by Hightouch - the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at www.hightouch.com/msom.   Timestamps 00:25 – First Martech tools, Mixpanel obsession, and Jason's weekly grilled cheese ritual 06:30 – Shaping brand storytelling: experience at Dropbox, BetterCloud, Microsoft 11:43 – What made early Salesforce so magnetic and why Martech lost its spark 16:40 – Making Martech cool again: inside Customer.io's Bob Ross, Hot Ones, and Raiders of the Lost Lifecycle concepts and playful brand identity 20:00 – What modern marketers actually want from live experiences 25:55 – Can mascots, memes, and influencers bring consumer fandom dynamics to Martech?   Connect & Subscribe Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Engage with the community on Reddit and follow Making Sense of Martech on LinkedIn, and don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube.  Leave a review, share with your team, and send us your questions and confessions. We may feature you in an upcoming episode!   Questions: https://themartechweekly.com/podcast/question/ Confessions: https://themartechweekly.com/podcast/confession-corner/  Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/MSoMPodcast/comments/1morng8/office_hours_questions/   Production Credit: Edited and produced by @the32collective_ / https://www.the32collective.co/  

"Adobe didn't just buy an SEO tool – it bought a negotiating position with the AI overlords of discovery." – Juan   Jacqueline and Juan unpack what "more human" marketing actually looks like when AI is mediating everything from search to Black Friday deals. They break down Adobe's acquisition of Semrush, quarterly Martech earnings, the Black Friday/Cyber Monday shift toward mobile-plus-AI shopping, BNPL's surge, and ChatGPT's three-year impact on how people search, think, and buy.    Brought to you by Hightouch — the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at www.hightouch.com/msom.   Timestamps 00:04 – MWF NYC debrief and why this year felt like a turning point for Martech 05:10 – Stranger Things and what "good" co-marketing actually looks like 10:30 – Woo-Woo vs data: how much of marketing is still intuition dressed up in dashboards 16:20 – Adobe buys Semrush: GEO data, media consolidation, and why Adobe blinked on AI search 24:40 – Quarterly Martech earnings: mid-market outpaces the enterprise and AI narratives without ROI 33:30 – BFCM early numbers: mobile-plus-AI shopping, BNPL growth, and fewer margin-killing discounts 36:56 – ChatGPT's third anniversary: national rollbacks and the societal risks of AI 42:15 – Subscriber question: How to drive change inside organizations when tooling and incentives clash?   Connect & Subscribe Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Engage with the community on Reddit and follow Making Sense of Martech on LinkedIn, and don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube. Leave a review, share with your team, and send us your questions and confessions. We may feature you in an upcoming episode! https://theMartechweekly.com/podcast/question/ https://theMartechweekly.com/podcast/confession-corner/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MSoMPodcast/comments/1morng8/office_hours_questions/

"If you're not treating deliverability as revenue insurance, you're already losing money." — Matt   This Hot Seat episode puts Matt McFee, an email veteran and founder of Inbox Monster, under the microscope. Jacqueline digs into how he went from Wall Street and Yahoo to co-founding BriteVerify, acquired by Validity, and why he thinks most brands are still wildly underestimating deliverability. He unpacks why inbox placement is really a revenue insurance program, not just a technical hygiene task, and why the real customer "moment of value" usually happens months after the contract is signed.   Brought to you by Hightouch - the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at www.hightouch.com/msom. Timestamps 01:03 – What would make Martech better?  05:22 – What 25 years in email have taught him about the inbox 07:32 – Lightbulb moment that led to found BriteVerify and Inbox Monster  11:58 – AI previews, creative rendering, and why annotations actually matter 15:48 – What marketers should be paying more attention to in deliverability  19:55 – Quantifying deliverability as a revenue insurance program for stakeholders 25:02 – Opinions on industry innovation and consolidation  28:23 – What vendors can do to better help marketers    Connect & Subscribe Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Engage with the community on Reddit and follow us on LinkedIn, and don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube. Leave a review, share with your team, and send us your questions and confessions. We may feature you in an upcoming episode!   Questions: https://themartechweekly.com/podcast/question/ Confessions: https://www.themartechweekly.com/podcast/confession-corner/ Reddit:  https://www.reddit.com/r/MSoMPodcast/comments/1morng8/office_hours_questions/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/making-sense-of-martech   

"Zero party data reflects what customers say they want; first party data reveals what they actually do." – David In this Hot Seat episode, Jacqueline sits down with David Joosten, co-founder of GrowthLoop and coauthor of First-Party Data Activation, to unpack why so many brands are "doing" first-party data yet still serving generic experiences. They dig into the tension between what customers say versus how they behave, and why marketers need to reconcile that gap with experimentation, empathy, and better use of their own data. Discover why embracing AI decisioning and continuous experimentation are crucial, and learn how to navigate the ethical red lines of using first-party data and AI responsibly in marketing. A must-listen for marketers looking to future-proof their data strategy.   David goes deep on why composable should be the default (not a buzzword), how to think about clean rooms without creeping out your customers, and what AI decisioning actually changes about the marketer's job. From compound growth engines and agentic workflows to team structures and org politics, this is a roadmap for leaders who want first-party data to drive real, measurable growth — not just prettier dashboards.   This episode wouldn't have been possible without the help of our sponsor Hightouch. Looking for a smarter way to activate your customer data? Hightouch is the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at www.hightouch.com/msom.   Timestamps   01:03 - Rapid Fire: AI generated content (Yay or Nay) and the marketing buzzword that needs to go.   02:30 - Is there ever a time to use third-party data ethically?.   03:54 - The most underrated skill for marketers today.   07:06 - Reconciling the gap between zero-party data (aspiration) and first-party data (behavior).   09:16 - The evolving role of first-party data in the next 3-5 years.   11:50 - Can clean rooms truly scale without compromising trust, and what's the next evolution of ethical data collaboration?   17:18 - What a "future-ready" Martech stack looks like in practice.   21:30 - Ethical red lines for AI: ensuring innovation respects privacy.   33:53 - The three-part advice for CMOs looking to future-proof their data strategy.   Connect & Subscribe   Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Engage with the community on Reddit and follow Making Sense of Martech on LinkedIn, and don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube.   Leave a review, share with your team, and send us your questions and confessions.   We may feature you in an upcoming episode! https://theMartechweekly.com/podcast/question/ https://theMartechweekly.com/podcast/confession-corner/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MSoMPodcast/comments/1morng8/office_hours_questions/  

"92% of enterprises say AI is a priority, and 78% also say they can't integrate it." — Juan   In this Office Hours episode, Jacqueline Freedman and Juan Mendoza unpack the biggest Martech realities of the season: record-breaking BFCM performance and the widening "AI hype gap." From $10.8 billion in U.S. online spending (69% on mobile) to reports revealing that 95% of marketers want AI personalization but only 2% have delivered it, the duo exposes where Martech optimism meets operational reality.    The episode wraps with a philosophical debate on attribution, why it's not a model but a mindset, and how every marketer needs a "margin for mystery" to keep creativity alive.    Don't miss the webinar "Has Martech Failed Marketers?" on November 13, featuring Scott Brinker and Adam Greco. Hightouch's latest survey found that nearly 75% of Martech struggles are rooted in data, not tools or strategy. Learn how to fix your data to unlock cleaner reporting and true personalization at scale. RSVP at hightouch.com/has-martech-failed   Timestamps 00:15 — Martech World Forum NYC next week and the launch of Melbourne 2026 04:51 — Black Friday & Cyber Monday: "The Super Bowl of Martech" and the $74B global spend moment 09:30 — From stores to platforms: the mobile commerce shift and why eCommerce needs enterprise-level investment 16:11 — The AI Report Card: 92% say AI is a priority, 78% can't integrate it — reality check from Zapier, G2, Hightouch, and Wharton 20:39 — Hightouch findings: 95% want AI-driven personalization, but only 2% deliver — the hype gap exposed 41:30 — AI decisioning vs. contextual bandits: semantics, strategy, and the need for real discipline 46:32 — Why attribution sucks: brand, politics, and the "margin for mystery" behind measurement   Connect & Subscribe Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Engage with the community on Reddit and follow Making Sense of Martech on LinkedIn, and don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube.   Leave a review, share with your team, and send us your questions and confessions. We may feature you in an upcoming episode! https://themartechweekly.com/podcast/question/ https://themartechweekly.com/podcast/confession-corner/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MSoMPodcast/comments/1morng8/office_hours_questions/ 

"Curiosity is the number one trait I'm looking for when hiring." — Brian Minick Jacqueline and Brian Minick, COO of ZeroBounce, get practical about AI's impact on hiring, email deliverability, and Martech operations. They unpack how AI is reshaping hiring, from candidates using copilots during interviews to the ethical implications of automation in recruitment. Brian shares how his gut helped him catch an AI-assisted candidate mid-interview, why curiosity and speed are the real differentiators in a digital-first world, and how he's balancing innovation with humanity at scale. Expect real talk on personalization trade-offs, customer data hygiene, leadership, and why curiosity still beats credentials. If you care about AI, Martech, leadership, and deliverability, this episode helps you cut noise and double down on what moves the needle. Brought to you by Hightouch, On November 13, Hightouch is hosting Has Martech Failed Marketers? featuring Scott Brinker of chiefmartec and Adam Greco to unpack what's really behind the pain and how fixing your data unlocks cleaner reporting and true personalization at scale. RSVP at www.hightouch.com/has-martech-failed Timestamps 00:28 — Early Martech Days: Google Ads, Analytics, and the hustle era. 03:12 — AI in Content: great for ideas, never for copy-paste. 04:07 — The New Deliverability: why engagement, not volume, wins. 06:25 — Curiosity-Driven Leadership: lessons from a selfless CEO. 09:37 — Using AI Internally: copilots, data storytelling, and guardrails. 18:35 — The Deliverability Gap: why no AI tool fully solves it—yet. 21:10 — The AI-Assisted Interview: red flags, silence tricks, and hiring truths. 38:23 — Leadership Without Ego: humility, speed, and follow-through. 43:28 — What's Next: AI-generated video and the future of short-form content. Connect & Subscribe Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Leave a review, share with your team, and send us your questions and confessions. We may feature you in an upcoming episode!   Send them here: https://themartechweekly.com/podcast/question/ https://themartechweekly.com/podcast/confession-corner/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MSoMPodcast/comments/1morng8/office_hours_questions/   

"You're supposed to be your customer relationship management platform of the era, and you're not listening to your very own customers." — Jacqueline Freedman   Jacqueline and Juan dissect Salesforce's Dreamforce rebranding of all major products to Agentforce, the erosion of its once-strong Ohana culture, and Benioff's billionaire behavior. They unpack the AWS outage, explore operational resilience, and talk about how to overcome analysis paralysis.    Brought to you by Hightouch On November 13, Hightouch is hosting Has Martech Failed Marketers? featuring Scott Brinker of chiefmartec and Adam Greco to unpack what's really behind the pain and how fixing your data unlocks cleaner reporting and true personalization at scale. RSVP at www.hightouch.com/has-martech-failed   Timestamps 00:23 — Scott Brinker's "You Are the Change Agent" for Martech World Forum. 02:53 — Making QBRs (Quarterly Business Reviews) fun with a "meme wall". 06:41 — What happened to "Ohana" at Salesforce/Dreamforce?. 09:11 — Salesforce product renaming: The "Agent Force" trend. 19:26 — The massive AWS Outage felt by companies globally. 26:01 — Hot Take: Alan Trevor on using AI decisioning backwards. 34:49 — Office Hours Question: Overcoming analysis paralysis. 37:37 — The connection between analysis paralysis and a lack of courage/risk-taking. 40:07 — Confession Corner: Forgetting an elevator pitch in front of the CEO.   Connect & Subscribe Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Leave a review, share with your team, and send us your questions and confessions — we may feature you in an upcoming episode!    Send them here: https://themartechweekly.com/podcast/question/ https://themartechweekly.com/podcast/confession-corner/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MSoMPodcast/comments/1morng8/office_hours_questions/

"Marketing engineers are the lovechild of marketers, product managers, and software engineers — they're the Avengers of your Martech stack." - Neha Dadbhawala   Join Jacqueline and Neha, Head of Martech at SEEK, to unpack how the role of the marketing engineer is reshaping the future of digital transformation.  Neha shares her insights on bridging strategy and execution, building operational readiness, and applying systems thinking to deliver scalable marketing outcomes. From the rise of AI to managing legacy tech, Neha reveals what it takes to drive meaningful innovation across marketing, technology, and customer experience.    Key Insights Discover the Rise of the Marketing Engineer Learn the 70-20-10 Rule for Operational Readiness Explore System-Level Thinking Bridge the Marketing–Tech Divide Navigate Legacy Systems with Agility Build the Future Martech Leader     Timestamps   00:30 — Rapid-Fire Intro: Neha's favorite Martech tool, the "build vs. buy" dilemma, and her least-favorite buzzword: "hyper-personalization." 3:30 — Defining the Marketing Engineer: The evolution from technologist to system architect and problem solver. 7:00 — Skills for the Future: Systems thinking, product mindset, and emotional intelligence as core leadership traits. 9:30 — Operational Readiness & the 70-20-10 Rule: How to plan for change and innovation simultaneously. 14:00 — Agility in Legacy Systems: Managing tech debt while maintaining scalability and speed. 18:30 — Breaking Silos: Why shared data definitions and transparent priorities unlock collaboration. 25:00 — The Future of Martech Careers: How marketing engineers can evolve into CMOs, Chief Growth Officers, and beyond.     Connect & Subscribe Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Leave a review, share with your team, and send us your questions and confessions — we may feature you in an upcoming episode!   Brought to you by Hightouch - the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at www.hightouch.com/msom.

"Don't be the Taylor Swift of Martech." - Jacqueline Freedman   Jacqueline and Juan break down three of the latest Martech moments: Braze's all-in AI decisioning push, Zeta Global's acquisition of Marigold, and what Taylor Swift's marketing playbook reveals about loyalty and fandom.    Drawing from recent Martech World Forum events in London and San Francisco, they cut through the hype around AI, vendor economics, and what real enterprise teams are actually doing to make Martech work.   Highlights Discover how Taylor Swift's variant strategy rewrites loyalty and first-party data engagement. Learn why most AI decisioning pilots stall—and how to tell if your org is ready. Understand what the Zeta–Marigold deal says about Martech consolidation and the future of loyalty tech. Explore how enterprise teams turn "global rollouts" into many small, scalable wins. Hear why authenticity and data discipline still beat automation and hype.   This episode wouldn't have been possible without the help of our sponsor Hightouch. This episode wouldn't have been possible without the help of our sponsor Hightouch. Looking for a smarter way to activate your customer data? See what Hightouch can do for you at hightouch.com/msom.   Timestamps3:25 — Lessons from HSBC & Tailored Brands (Men's Wearhouse) on rolling out AI at scale. 7:12 — Braze's AI Decisioning: Analyzing the early use cases and the hard truth about ROI. 10:28 — Vendor rush: CDPs, decisioning, and the hidden cost of data operations. 14:04 — The Real Cost of AI: Why governance and data readiness are the biggest factors in Total Cost of Ownership (TCO). 16:34 — Zeta Global acquires Marigold: strategy, price, and implications. 21:01 — The Taylor Swift Effect: loyalty, data, fandom economics, and corporate greed. 28:37 — Office Hours Q&A: Do you think the real power of a show like this is in analyzing the companies—or in challenging how the industry itself thinks about using (or refusing) AI in daily work?   Connect & Subscribe: Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Leave a review, share with your team, and send us your questions and confessions — we may feature you in an upcoming episode!

"There's a big difference between consent and attention — you still have to earn the attention." - Lauren Meyer   Lauren Meyer, CMO of SocketLabs, joins Jacqueline Freedman on The Hot Seat to discuss what marketers get wrong about email. She shares how to earn real engagement, why "inbox placement rate" is a lie, and how to prove email's value inside your org. A must-listen for anyone in marketing ops, lifecycle, or Martech leadership who wants to make smarter, data-backed email decisions. This episode wouldn't have been possible without the help of our sponsor Hightouch.  Looking for a smarter way to activate your customer data? See what Hightouch can do for you at hightouch.com/msom.   Highlights Learn why consent alone isn't enough and how to earn lasting attention. Discover how to win internal buy-in with small, proof-of-concept projects. Understand why marketers must accept churn and stay consistent. Cut through noisy metrics and drop "inbox placement rate" from your reports. Get smart about measuring engagement post-MPP using replies, site visits, and revenue. Spot vendor red flags: no one can "guarantee" inbox placement.   Episode Breakdown 2:16 — Epic Fail Story: The migration mistake that led to 3,000 spam complaints and a deliverability meltdown. 8:15 — The Consent Myth: Why consent is just the handshake and attention is the real battle. 12:54 — Fighting for Email: How to advocate for email internally with small proof-of-concept wins. 15:08 — Data Hygiene: The B2B vs. B2C data gap and why you should offer personal email sign-ups. 17:52 — Data Overload: Why giving marketers too much data leads to paralysis and bad assumptions. 19:52 — The Metric to Ban: Why "Inbox Placement Rate" is unreliable and based on robot "seed testing." 22:06 — Vendor Red Flags: What to ask about human support and why no one can guarantee inbox placement. 25:02 — Post-APP World: How to measure engagement through conversions, replies, and site visits, not opens. 33:09 — AI Limits: The doctor vs. over-the-counter analogy for AI in deliverability.   Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Leave a review, share with your team, and send us your questions and confessions. We may feature you in an upcoming episode!

"No one's data is perfect. I think the biggest challenge though ends up being more people, because what often happens is that companies of a certain scale, marketing orgs of a certain scale, oftentimes we start adding on products or new verticals and we hire marketers to be in charge of those specific products or verticals, and they work in these silos and isolation of each other." - Natalie Miles Fuerst In this episode of Making Sense of Martech, we sit down with Natalie Miles, Staff Product Manager for Martech at Grammarly and former Head of Martech at Chime and Credit Karma. She is an expert in managing massive data volumes, driving scalable personalization, and assembling composable marketing technology stacks. This is a must-listen for leaders and practitioners navigating the complex world of high-volume email, the composable CDP space, and the ever-present "build vs. buy" debate in the age of generative AI. This episode wouldn't have been possible without the help of our sponsor, Hightouch.  Looking for a smarter way to activate your customer data? See what Hightouch can do for you at hightouch.com/msom.   Highlights Learn the biggest challenge of scaling audience segmentation and deliverability to billions of emails per year, and why it's a "people problem" before a data problem.  Hear a hilarious and painful "epic fail" story involving a compliance email, a financial services company, and a sex hotline. Understand the pros and cons of warehouse-native (composable) CDPs versus traditional, off-the-shelf solutions, and why the term "CDP" is fuzzy. Discover the key difference between real-time and batch data delivery and how to decide what your use case truly needs. Natalie's "dream scenario" tech stack for a high-volume, modern company, including her top picks for reverse ETL and ESPs. Learn how to define a North Star metric that aligns with customer engagement signals with long-term LTV and business outcomes.   Episode Breakdown 00:01:35 - Rapid Fire: Night Owl, Favorite Martech Tool (It's not an ESP), and Vibe Coding. 00:03:43 - Professional Admiration: Why Credit Karma's marketing cohort was a special "incubator." 00:05:33 - Epic Fail: The compliance email, the phone number, and the sex hotline.  00:09:20 - Reversing a Major Martech Decision: When a personalization tool isn't worth the price. 00:11:29 - Scaling to Billions of Emails: The challenge of data hygiene vs. the people problem. 00:15:54 - Composable CDPs: Deciding between real-time bvs. batch data. 00:20:20 - Predictions: The future of composability and why "CDP" is a fuzzy term. 00:26:02 - The Age-Old Questions: Build vs. Buy in the age of Generative AI. 00:31:48 - Aligning Customer Engagement: How to define a North Star Metric that drives LTV. 00:35:53 - The Dream Martech Stack: Natalie's top picks for a high-volume, modern comapny. 00:39:25 - The AI Risk: Why you don't want to be the "first adopter" of an AI-powered ESP.   Key Takeaways The biggest Scaling Challenge is Organizational: At high volume, the main issue isn't data quality but the "tragedy of the commons" where siloed teams send overlapping campaigns, leading to user fatigue and churn. Having an "air traffic control" function is crucial.  Composability Solves for Alignment: The fuzzy definition of "CDP" and it's high cost highlight the need for composability. The warehouse-native approach is "very bullish" because the underlying data should be the single source of truth for both marketing and product/finance. Build vs. Buy is Fluid: The decision has historically leaned toward buying third- party tools because in-house development often results in difficult-to-use and unreliable tools, diverting precious engineering resources from core product capabilities. However, the emergence of generative AI could dramatically change the "build vs. buy calculation". The North Star Must Connect to Value: A true North Star metric should be time-bound, align with the natural cadence of product usage (e.g., daily active users for Grammerly)   Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Leave a review, share with your team, and send us your questions and confessions. We may feature you in an upcoming episode. Hope you enjoyed the episode!

"I think a CRM is not a tool, it's a discipline, it's a system minimization of how we manage relationships across time channels and teams." - Karla Vince In this episode of Making Sense of Martech, we host our first-ever debate to define what a CRM is and if the definition is changing as the line between B2B and B2C blurs. We're joined by Karla Vince, who leads marketing automation at Topcon Healthcare, and James Fang, Director of Product Marketing at Klaviyo. This conversation is a must-listen for anyone interested in understanding the history of CRM, its modern definition, and where it's headed. Highlights *Understand the historical origins of CRM, from ancient Rome to the modern cloud-based solutions. *Hear a lively debate on whether CRM is a B2B-only discipline or if a B2C CRM is a valid concept. *Discover how the term CRM has expanded to include marketing, service, and analytics, and if the term is becoming overextended. *Learn how the industry's perception of CRM is evolving and the potential for new definitions. *Get insights into how AI is poised to reinvent the CRM, making it more proactive and predictive. Episode Breakdown 06:57 - The surprising history of CRM, from ancient Rome to Salesforce. 09:28 - Defining CRM: Is it a discipline or a technology? 11:01 - The "C" in CRM: Who is the customer?. 12:38 - Where is the line? At what point is the term "CRM" overextended?. 15:17 - How do different business models and industry toolsets shape the definition of CRM?. 26:39 - Do B2B and B2C CRMs have parallels?. 31:12 - Did Salesforce's popularization of CRM elevate or dilute the term?. 35:11 - The future of CRM: The vision of a true 360-degree customer view. 42:12 - How AI will reinvent CRM and the role of personalization. Key Takeaways *CRM is both a discipline and a technology. While it has historical roots as a system for managing relationships, it has evolved into software that enables the management and analysis of customer interactions throughout the entire lifecycle. *The definition of "customer" is contextual. In a B2B context, a customer can be a lead, a contact, an account, or a partner. In a B2C context, it can be a first-time visitor, a subscriber, or a repeat purchaser. *The future of CRM is proactive. Instead of just being a record-keeping tool, future CRMs will use AI to offer predictive triggers, smarter workflows, and conversational intelligence. *Competition is pushing innovation. New players and changing business models are putting pressure on traditional CRM giants to evolve, leading to new developments and improvements in their core products. Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Leave a review, share with your team, and send us your questions and confessions. We may feature you in an upcoming episode!

"If you empower your team to make their own decisions, they're just more motivated—and that drives great outcomes." - Adrian Rohr In this episode of Making Sense of Martech, we sit down with Adrian Rohr, VP of Marketing CRM at Fabletics, to uncover how one of the world's leading activewear brands is redefining customer engagement in-house with AI-powered CRM and omnichannel personalization. This conversation is a must-listen for marketing leaders curious about AI orchestration, CRM transformation, and building high-performing in-house teams. Highlights Discover how Fabletics built a proprietary tech stack that powers everything from supply chain to marketing execution. Learn why Adrian believes AI content generation — not send-time optimization — is the real performance driver. Understand the competitive advantage of running your team entirely in-house with speed, flexibility, and institutional knowledge. Discover how the team leverages 250+ data points daily to drive personalization at scale. Hear Adrian's take on the future of lifecycle marketing and why marketers will soon become "AI shepherds."   Episode Breakdown 04:54 — How "Silicon Valley meets Fashion Avenue" defines Fabletics' tech-first DNA 07:00 — Replacing fragmented CRM tools with a unified, AI-powered orchestration platform 10:20 — Inside Fabletics' team structure and culture of empowerment 17:00 — Why Fabletics keeps everything in-house: speed, control, and deep domain knowledge 25:30 — The future of AI in CRM: 1:1 personalization, omnichannel orchestration, and enterprise-scale platforms 31:50 — Optimizing subject lines with AI—plus where human oversight still matters 36:50 — Clean data, empowered teams, and advice for brands struggling to scale 39:50 — Looking ahead: AI shepherds, org chart shifts, and the need for a true "connecting platform"   Key Takeaways AI is transforming content generation more than send-time optimization, driving significant gains for triggers and transactional messaging. Fabletics' speed, ownership, and flexibility allow campaigns to pivot instantly. Data hygiene and a centralized tech stack eliminate silos, creating an actual omnichannel experience. Over the next 1-3 years, marketers will transition from being manual executors to AI shepherds. Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Leave a review, share with your team, and send us your questions and confessions. We may feature you in an upcoming episode!

"We see the future of digital experiences as living — personalized and self-improving 24/7." - Josh Payne In this episode, Jacqueline Freedman puts Josh Payne in The Hot Seat to unpack "living interfaces," AI-driven experimentation, and what agentic marketing really looks like in practice.  Josh shares lessons from collaborating with OpenAI, why most CRO tests fail, and where generative engine optimization (GEO) is headed next.  We delve into enterprise realities, including privacy and governance, avoiding spaghetti code, and what a "living interface" entails. Highlights Discover how "living interfaces" adapt websites in real time to lift conversion and usability. Learn a practical framework for automating ~90% of the CRO workflow with agents. Understand when to start with global experiments vs. personalization to reduce data-privacy friction. Explore the rise of generative engine optimization (GEO) and why it will rival SEO in influence. Adopt guardrails: define measurable evals, keep specs specific, and stay model-agnostic for compliance. Hear what enterprises actually need from vendors: context, integration, and disciplined measurement. Timestamps 03:50 - What "living interfaces" are and how they create real-time, self-improving digital experiences 04:57 - Partnering with OpenAI: visual grounding, UI generation, and early access to models 11:25 - Why most CRO tests fail—and how AI agents flip the economics of experimentation 14:50 - What "agent marketing" means: automating workflows and scaling high-leverage loops 17:45 - Common AI pitfalls and why clear goals, specs, and evals matter 24:20 - Navigating privacy concerns and model choices in enterprise AI 27:30 - How Josh filters the AI noise and stays sharp Subscribe to Making Sense of Martech wherever you get your podcasts. Leave a review, share with your team, and send us your questions. We may feature you in an upcoming episode.

In this episode of Office Hours, Jacqueline Freedman and Juan Mendoza unpack the overwhelming success of their podcast launch, share details about the upcoming Martech World Forum London 2025, and dive into AI adoption, vendor dependency, and the evolving world of customer data platforms (CDPs). Highlights Podcast launch success & what's next: global reach, sponsorship buzz, and better audio quality coming January 2025 Martech World Forum London 2025: key speakers, VIP dinner, and how to network with enterprise leaders Vendor partnerships: the dark side of over-reliance Generative AI's harsh reality check (only 5% of deployments succeed) The future of CDP pricing models Hot takes: Pepsi's $57M AI ad vs Wendy's viral comeback Lessons from the field: failed CDPs, misfired campaigns, and confessions Key Takeaways AI hype vs reality: start with small, measurable pilots. Vendor partnerships should empower, not entrap. Treat customer data like a valuable asset: maintain, enrich, and activate. CDP pricing is shifting toward enriched profiles and behaviour triggers. Fast, authentic engagement often outperforms big-budget AI campaigns   Timestamps & Highlights 00:00 - Podcast Launch Success 02:11 - MarTech World Forum London 2025 03:32 - Vendor partnerships: necessary evil or obstacle? 14:46 - Generative AI reality check 24:29 - CDP pricing evolution 32:03 - Hot take: Pepsi's $57M AI campaign vs Wendy's $9 clapback 35:17 - Pawan Verma on customer decisioning  38:03 - Question of the Week 40:51 - Confession Corner    Why You Should Listen If you're an enterprise marketing leader or Martech practitioner, this episode will give you: Insider knowledge on 2025 Martech strategies Real-world AI lessons with measurable ROI Advice on avoiding vendor lock-in A sneak peek at the Martech World Forum 2025   Ways to Connect Subscribe to the podcast: Making Sense of Martech Join the conversation: LinkedIn – Juan Mendoza | LinkedIn – Jacqueline Freedman Register for Martech World Forum 2025: Event Info & Tickets   Submit your confession or question for the next episode: Submit Here