The It Depends Podcast with Matt and Tenille

What does it take to align place-based approaches with the right kind of evidence — and why does getting that wrong cause so many problems? John Hitchin is co-founder of Stories of Change and co-author of the Place and Evidence in the UK report. In this conversation, he unpacks what genuinely makes work place-based versus just happening in a place, and walks us through a new taxonomy of five categories of place-based change — each requiring different mechanisms and different forms of evidence. John draws on over 20 years of experience to explain why misalignment between what funders want to achieve and how they ask practitioners to prove it is one of the biggest barriers in this space. We also get into backbone organisations versus "connective scaffolding," why competitive funding environments sit uneasily with collaborative place-based work, and whether the current policy moment in the UK is a genuine turning point or just another cycle. We cover: The distinction between working in a place and doing place-based work Five categories of place-based change and the evidence each needs Mechanisms vs activities — how change actually "gets into" a place What funders should ask themselves before deciding what to measure Backbone organisations vs connective scaffolding models like Grapevine Building shared language for a field of practice (without shared frameworks) Why relationships sit at the heart of all place-based work If you like what you hear sign up for our mailing list! We share resources, publications, and other ways to learn. You can also find Matt and Tenille on LinkedIn, or visit our website. Resources Mentioned Stories of Change — John's partnership focused on strategy, evidence, and narrative for social impact Place and Evidence in the UK — the report discussed throughout this episode (Hitchin, Little & Waldie, 2025) Place and Evidence Substack — ongoing writing and thinking from John and colleagues Place Matters — commissioned the report Historical Review of Place-Based Approaches — Lankelly Chase (2017) The Mycelial Network — a UK network of community asset developers We're Right Here — a campaign for community power The Relationships Project — exploring the role of relationships in public services Grapevine, Coventry & Warwickshire — connective scaffolding in practice

What does it really mean to do co-design well — and when might stepping back be more powerful than stepping in? Jessie Robinson is a proud Wiradjuri man and founder of Mawang Consulting. In this conversation, he challenges us to think differently about co-design — not as a process or framework, but as a fundamentally relational practice rooted in power redistribution. Jessie shares how First Nations ways of being and doing have shaped his approach, and why he believes communities often already have the solutions — they just need the resources and space to act on them. We also get into the messier side of this work: having hard conversations with commissioners, sitting in discomfort, and what it actually looks like to practise two-way learning rather than just talk about it. We cover: Co-design as power redistribution, not methodology When to resource what already exists rather than design something new Indigenous knowledge systems and what practitioners can learn from them The step before 'discovery' — sitting and sharing space with community Collaboration vs competition in how work gets commissioned What two-way learning means in practice If you like what you hear sign up for our mailing list! We share resources, publications, and other ways to learn. You can also find Matt and Tenille on LinkedIn, or visit our website. Resources Mentioned Mawang Consulting — Jessie's First Nations owned consultancy Beyond Sticky Notes — KA McKercher's book on co-design KA McKercher — co-design practitioner and author

In this episode of It Depends, Matt and Tenille speak with Dr Luke Craven, CEO of PLACE Australia (Partnerships for Local Action and Community Empowerment), a first-of-its-kind effort to connect, resource, and strengthen place-based initiatives nationally. Luke shares PLACE's defining insight from engaging with 53 place-based initiatives across the country: that effective place-based work is fundamentally about governance, not geography. He outlines the three principles -subsidiarity, accountability, and partnership - that PLACE believes underpin meaningful place-based practice, and explains why being "domain neutral" allows them to act as ecosystem engineers, connecting practitioners solving similar challenges across early years, net zero transition, criminal justice, and beyond. This Episode is a thoughtful conversation about what it takes to move place-based approaches from novel to normal, and why being tight on purpose but loose on the how might be the key to lasting systems change.   If you like what you hear sign up for our mailing list! We share resources, publications, and other ways to learn. You can also find Matt and Tenille on LinkedIn, or visit our website.   Check out past episodes on Resilience in Place (#12 with Gretel Evans), Complex Adaptive Systems in Emergency Management (#8 with Todd Miller), Value for Money in Evaluation (#11 with Julian King) to explore threads that came up in this episode. Links to resources mentioned or relevant to the episode: PLACE Australia – including their Practice Framework Place Matters UK – PLACE's counterpart organisation in the United Kingdom The Good Shift – Ingrid Burkett's work on systems approaches and visual storytelling Fire to Flourish – Paul Ramsay Foundation initiative supporting community-led disaster recovery Logan Together – place-based initiative in Queensland focused on early years Regen Melbourne – place-based urban regeneration across metropolitan Melbourne

Can a dishwasher be an indicator of community resilience? In this episode of It Depends, Matt speaks with historian and social researcher Dr Gretel Evans about the powerful intersections between storytelling, place, disaster, and community resilience. Drawing on her work in oral history, migration, and environmental history, Gretel shares how her research into floods and bushfires led her into large-scale, place-based recovery through the Fire to Flourish program at Monash University. Gretel touches on the upcoming Community Disaster Resilience Capability Framework, outlining six key capabilities that support stronger, more connected communities before, during, and after disaster. The conversation explores why community resilience is collective, not individual, and how unexpected infrastructure - like community dishwashers- can play a vital role. The conversation also dives deep into the role of storytelling and oral history in understanding resilience. Gretel reflects on the ethical dimensions of interviewing, data ownership, trauma, and the potential for community-owned story archives as a future pathway. This is a rich and thoughtful conversation about how history, memory, and lived experience shape the way communities recover, adapt, and imagine their futures—and why numbers alone can never tell the full story.   If you like what you hear sign up for our mailing list! We share resources, publications, and other ways to learn. You can also find Matt and Tenille on LinkedIn, or visit our website.   Check out past episodes on Indigenous Data Sovereignty (#3 with Skye Trudgett) and Complex Adaptive Systems in Emergency Management (#8 with Todd Miller) to explore threads that came up in this episode.   Links to resources mentioned or relevant to the episode: Oral History and Folklore collection at the National Library of Australia Oral History Australia - if you want to learn more about oral history  Fire to Flourish Knowledge Centre - the Toolkit and other materials will be posted here when they are publicly available A systematic review on co-design, place-making and social capital that Gretel contributed towards.

We talk a lot about what evaluation is. Methods, models, frameworks, competencies. All the pieces we use to make sense of complex systems. But what about the people doing the work. How do we think, learn, and navigate the field, especially at a time when artificial intelligence is influencing how knowledge is created, interpreted, and judged. In this episode, Dr Bianca Montrosse Moorhead helps us look beneath the surface of evaluation practice. We explore the classic fox and hedgehog metaphor and what it reveals about how evaluators operate, why our tendencies matter, and how identity shapes the judgments we make. From training the next generation of evaluators to working with the rapid rise of AI, Bianca brings a grounded and thoughtful perspective on where the field is heading and what it asks of us. Tenille is on leave this week, so Matt is flying solo. Thankfully Bianca is here to keep him company as the two wander through philosophy, practice, technology and the big questions about value and purpose in evaluation.   If you like what you hear sign up for our mailing list! We share resources, publications, and other ways to learn. You can also find Matt and Tenille on LinkedIn, or visit our website.   Resources from the episode: Evaluation Foundations Revisited: Cultivating a Life of the Mindful Practitioner by Thomas A Schwandt Evaluation Essentials: From A to Z by Marvin C Alkin, Anne T Vo and Christina A Christie Core Concepts in Evaluation: Classic Writings and Contemporary Commentary edited by Lori Wingate, Ayesha Boyce, Lyssa Wilson Becho and Kelly Robertson Evaluation Criteria for Artificial Intelligence by Bianca Montrosse Moorhead And keep an eye out for Using Generative AI in Evaluation Practice edited by Carrie Bruce, Valentine Gandhi and Stephan Bony - it's not yet released but will be coming soon and will be open-access.   

Suicide prevention is one of the most complex challenges in public health - but what happens when we stop treating it as an individual issue and start seeing it as a system? In this episode of It Depends, Matt and Tenille speak with Dr Maria Michail, Associate Professor at the University of Birmingham, whose pioneering work bridges psychology, systems science, and participatory research. Together we unpack what it means to move “from authority to authenticity”, exploring how authentic approaches to working with young people in research, systems modelling, and new ways of thinking can reshape how we understand and respond to complexity. Featuring insights from research innovative work, this conversation challenges the assumptions of safety, power, and expertise - and invites us to rethink how complex problems are best approached.   If you like what you hear sign up for our mailing list! We share resources, publications, and other ways to learn. You can also find us on LinkedIn, or visit our website.   Below are some of the papers that Maria references in the episode: An evaluation of the feasibility, value and impact of using participatory modelling to inform the development of a regional system dynamics model for youth suicide prevention Youth partnership in suicide prevention research: moving beyond the safety discourse Unleashing the Potential of Systems Modeling and Simulation in Supporting Policy-Making and Resource Allocation for Suicide Prevention

We throw the word co-design around a lot. It’s become shorthand for collaboration, participation, even goodwill — a prefix that promises inclusion. But what does that little “co-” really mean? In this episode, we explore the shades of co-design: how far collaboration can go, when it works, when it doesn’t, and how systems thinking and design intersect in practice. Drawing on years of work at the intersection of social innovation, facilitation, and capability-building, Emma Blomkamp helps us unpack the language, myths, and maturity of co-design — and reminds us that it all comes back to one thing: purpose. Whether you’re a practitioner, policymaker, or just someone curious about what genuine collaboration looks like in complex systems, this episode offers both reflection and practical guidance on doing co with intent.   If you like what you hear sign up for our mailing list! We share resources, publications, and other ways to learn. You can also find us on LinkedIn, or visit our website. Resources from the episode: Emma Blomkamp's New Know How and specifically the Co-Design Maturity Model and Quiz KA McKercher's Beyond Sticky Notes - a great resource! The Impact Policy Podcast episode with Jessie Robinson titled "Co-design Collaboration and Community Engagement) Co-Design practitioner Dr Tristan Schultz's website 

In this episode of It Depends, Matt and Tenille sit down with Todd Miller, Associate Director of Resilience at Auckland University of Technology (AUT) and creator of the Complex Adaptive Disaster and Emergency Management (CADEM) Framework - a systems-based rethink of how we prepare for, respond to, and recover from disasters. Todd brings a deeply relational take to emergency management. Drawing from years in the Army, firefighting, and the National Emergency Management Agency (NEMA), he reflects on how our ability to respond well in moments of crisis depends less on command and control - and more on the quality of the relationships that connect people, organisations, and communities before disaster strikes. His key tip? Invest time building trust over a cup of tea - it might be the most powerful hidden preparedness strategy we have.   Thanks for listening to the It Depends Podcast! You can find out more about First Person Consullting on our website, follow us on LinkedIn, or sign up to our semi-regular newsletter. Resources mentioned in the episode include: Todd's paper proposing the CADEM Framework The toolkit built off the paper, which includes templates and processes for use by organisations and communities Todd's methodological paper on Constructivist Networked Grounded Theory

In this episode of The It Depends Podcast, Matt and Tenille sit down with Associate Professor Emily Gates from Boston College. Emily is an evaluator, educator, and systems thinker whose work bridges theory and practice, with a focus on how evaluation can better reflect the realities of large-scale systems change. Their conversation ranges from the limits of outcomes-focused evaluation to the importance of boundaries, perspectives, and stewardship in systems practice. Together, they explore what it means to evaluate systemic change, the role of commissioners and funders, and why evaluators may need to act less like neutral judges and more like facilitators of critical deliberation. Emily invites us to pause, self-critique, and think differently about how evaluation can contribute to meaningful, lasting change. Whether you’re an evaluator, commissioner, or just curious about how change happens in complex systems, this conversation will spark reflection, raise challenging questions, and—of course—leave you with the reminder that sometimes the only answer is: it depends.   Thanks for listening to the It Depends Podcast! You can find out more about First Person Consullting on our website, follow us on LinkedIn, or sign up to our semi-regular newsletter.   These are links to the resources mentioned in the episode: Emily's new book co-written with Pablo Vidueira - Evaluative Inquiry for Systemic Change Thomas Schwandt's Evaluation Foundations: Cultivating a Life of Mind for Practice The Omidyar Group's Systems Practice Workbook And while we didn't mention it in the episode, Emily shared afterwards that she routinely goes back to Nora Bateson's book: Small Arcs of Larger Circles: Framing Through Other Patterns (here's an excerpt) for inspiration and new layers of insight. 

And just like that the 2025 Australian Evaluation Society Conference comes to a close! Matt and Tenille quickly debrief on the day, but most importantly we hear some thoughts and reflections from the delegates on what they took from the day - the Conference as a whole! Also, here is the evaluation report that Jo Farmer completed that Tenille discussed. Shout out to all those clients that publish such great examples for others to learn from. If you haven't listened to Day 1 or Day 2's episodes (6.1 and 6.2) make sure to check that out first and then come back! Thanks for listening to the It Depends Podcast! You can find out more about First Person Consullting on our website, follow us on LinkedIn, or sign up to our semi-regular newsletter.  

Day 2 of the 2025 Australian Evaluation Society Conference is done and dusted! Matt and Tenille debrief on the walk back to their hotel and we hear some thoughts from some of the delegates on what they took from the day. Also, here is Bobby Maher's paper that Tenille referenced in the episode on defining collective capability If you haven't listened to Day 1's episode (6.1) make sure to check that out first and then come back! Thanks for listening to the It Depends Podcast! You can find out more about First Person Consullting on our website, follow us on LinkedIn, or sign up to our semi-regular newsletter.  

Coming to you from Canberra, Matt and Tenille summarise their key takeaways from the first day of the Australian Evaluation Society Conference in Canberra. This is the first of a three-part series covering each day.    If you haven't been able to make the Conference this is a chance to keep up with the latest thinking - as best we can - or if you are here, it's a chance to get our take on some of the key messages.   Thanks for listening to the It Depends Podcast! You can find out more about First Person Consullting on our website, follow us on LinkedIn, or sign up to our semi-regular newsletter.

In this episode of It Depends, we sit down with internationally recognised evaluator Julian King to explore what it really means to assess value. Moving beyond traditional cost-benefit analysis and social return on investment, Julian introduces his award-winning Value for Investment (VfI) approach - an interdisciplinary framework that combines economic rigor with stakeholder perspectives.   Together, they unpack how VfI helps evaluators and commissioners define value propositions, integrate mixed methods, and make evaluative reasoning more transparent. They also touch on rubrics, participatory evaluation, and Julian’s idea of “Cubist evaluation,” which emphasizes multiple perspectives and collective sense-making in practice.   Julian covered a lot in this episode, and there's plenty of it freely accessible online! Check out the below resources: Julian's home page with free resources and training opportunities: https://www.julianking.co.nz/ Julian's 'Evaluation and Value for Investment' Substack A Guide to Evaluation of Value for Money in UK Public Service written by Julian King and Alex Hurrell A specific Substack post by Julian on 'Mixed Reasoning and Cubist Evaluation' Jane Davidson's book which changed Julian's approach: Evaluation Methodology Basics: The Nuts and Bolts of Sound Evaluation Thanks for listening to the It Depends Podcast! You can find out more about First Person Consullting on our website, follow us on LinkedIn, or sign up to our semi-regular newsletter.

Scaling impact sounds simple—just do more of what worked. In reality, it’s messy: contexts shift, resources are finite, politics and procurement warp timelines, and “success” looks different to different people. That’s why designing and evaluating for scale is one of the hardest gigs in our field. In this episode of The It Depends Podcast, Matt sits down with evaluation pioneer John Gargani to explore the intersections of design, evaluation, and scaling impact. With over three decades of experience, John shares how a “misspent youth” led him into evaluation, why design and evaluation are inseparable, and how evaluators can play a crucial role in shaping better programs from the outset. Together, Matt and John unpack the nuances of design thinking, the discipline required for innovation, and the challenges of moving beyond linear “growth models” of scale toward more dynamic, context-driven approaches. Along the way, they dive into real-world examples—from global health crises to water infrastructure—and consider what it takes to responsibly scale innovations without losing sight of ethics, trade-offs, and long-term sustainability. We mention some resources in this episode - including John's book - which is free! Here are some quick links to get you started: Scaling Impact: Innovaton for the Public Good by Rob McLean and John Gargani GIZ Scaling Digital Innovations Workbook Thanks for listening to the It Depends Podcast! You can find out more about First Person Consullting on our website, follow us on LinkedIn, or sign up to our semi-regular newsletter.  

In this episode of The It Depends Podcast, Tenille Moselen speaks with Dr. Skye Trudgett, a proud First Nations woman and CEO of Kowa, about putting Indigenous data sovereignty into practice. Skye shares her path from aspiring sleep scientist to leading national work in evaluation, research, and community-led data governance. This episode demystifies and unpacks what Indigenous data sovereignty really means (“caring for data so data can care for Country and community”), common misconceptions, and the small but powerful changes that we can all be implementing that can shift systems.  We're not going to summarise it all here for you - this is an episode to check-out for yourself! After you've listened, we'd recommend you check out the resources and links below to learn more. Resources and Links: Start your journey by reading the Maiam nayri Wingara Indigenous Data Sovereignty Principles and other resources on their website Kowa - national leaders in the design and implementation of First Nations-led Understanding, Measurement, Evaluation & Learning (UMEL) practice.  The OCCAAARS Framework- which Skye references in the podcast and is based on her PhD. Thanks for listening to the It Depends Podcast! You can find out more about First Person Consullting on our website, follow us on LinkedIn, or sign up to our semi-regular newsletter.  

Join Matt and Tenille for an exclusive behind-the-scenes chat with Kim Grey and Ruth Nicholls, the dynamic duo co-convening the 2025 Australian Evaluation Conference in Canberra. Discover what's in store when the evaluation community gathers from 15-19 September under the theme "Beyond the Bubble." Kim and Ruth take us through their thinking on why 'Beyond the Bubble' was the right theme, some background on the exciting lineup of international keynote speakers, and some sneak peaks into the sessions they're excited to see. We explore the four conference sub-themes - Foundations, Connecting, Cultivating, and Transforming. Listen to hear why the conference isn't just about methods - it's about relationships. Whether you're seasoned or new to the field, Kim and Ruth share why the magic of evaluation conferences lies in the unexpected connections, the corridor conversations, and the chance to see familiar approaches used in completely new ways.  See the Conference Program and register: https://www.aes25.aes.asn.au/ Learn more about the Australian Evaluation Society, including how to become a member, their professional development program, and more: https://www.aes.asn.au/   Thanks for listening to the It Depends Podcast! You can find out more about First Person Consullting on our website, follow us on LinkedIn, or sign up to our semi-regular newsletter.

In this debut episode of It Depends Podcast, co-hosts Matt Healey and Tenille Moselen dive into the murky middle of evaluation practice—where complexity thrives, answers are rarely black and white, and good questions matter more than quick fixes. They’re joined by Eleanor Williams, Managing Director of the Australian Centre for Evaluation, for a wide-ranging and thoughtful conversation on evidence, ethics, and embedding evaluation in the heart of public policy. Together, they explore: What makes evidence fit for purpose—especially in fast-paced policy environments The importance of meaningful relationships between evaluators and commissioners The role and realities of quasi-experimental design in the public sector Thinking around everyday ethical dilemmas evaluators face. This episode is a must-listen for anyone navigating the tension between rigour, relevance, and real-world constraints. It’s honest, nuanced, and full of insight. Some of the resources mentioned in the episode are linked below: The Australian Centre for Evaluation homepage, and specifically the Commonwealth Evaluation Toolkit Relational Commissioning blog post by Eleanor Williams and Skye Trudgett The UK Government’s Magenta Book – see including Annex A on different methods for use in evaluations The webpage with more on the Australian Public Sector Evaluation Network (APSEN). Thanks for listening to the It Depends Podcast! You can find out more about First Person Consullting on our website, follow us on LinkedIn, or sign up to our semi-regular newsletter.