The Art of the Zag

Why don't we trust the Terminator? He's strong, smart, and always keeps his word — but nobody would trust him. The answer reveals the hidden psychology of trust that most people never think about.In this episode, Joe Lazer and Shane Snow sit down with Dr. F. David Schoorman, a Purdue University professor whose research on trust has been cited over 50,000 times — including what's widely considered the most influential psychology paper of the 1990s. His new research flips the conventional wisdom on trust: it's often the person doing the trusting, not the person being trusted, who destroys the relationship.We explore why Americans trust strangers far more than any other culture, why your boss probably trusts you more than you trust them, how 85% of Gen Z students track each other's locations without realizing what it signals, and why Tiger Woods' PR team understood the psychology of betrayal better than most psychologists.Key topics:The three pillars of trust — and the hidden one most people missThe Terminator Test: Shane's framework for why we trust (or don't)Why location-sharing apps may be destroying your relationshipsHow the "trustor" — the person doing the trusting — often sabotages trustWhy Americans are the most trusting culture in the worldThe trust gap between bosses and employeesHow remote work created a trust vacuumWhy you should never talk about business in a first meetingExcessive transparency as a "control system" that kills trustThe pandemic generation's trust crisisCan trust be repaired after betrayal? A preview of Dr. Schoorman's next researchThe Tiger Woods case study: reframing betrayal as an ability problemAbout our guest:Dr. F. David Schoorman is a Professor of Organizational Behavior and Human Resource Management at Purdue University's Daniels School of Business. He received the Academy of Management's "Distinguished Educator" career award in 2007. His foundational 1995 paper "An Integrative Model of Organizational Trust" (with Mayer and Davis) was recognized as the most influential article published in the Academy of Management Review in the 1990s.Research discussed in this episode:"An Integrative Model of Organizational Trust" (Mayer, Davis, Schoorman, 1995): https://journals.aom.org/doi/10.5465/amr.1995.9508080335"What We Do While Waiting: The Experience of Vulnerability in Trusting Relationships" (Ballinger, Schoorman, Sharma, 2024): https://journals.aom.org/doi/abs/10.5465/amr.2022.0080"An Integrative Model of Organizational Trust: Past, Present, and Future" (Schoorman, Mayer, Davis, 2007): https://journals.aom.org/doi/10.5465/amr.2007.24348410Chapters:(00:00) Joe and Shane's trust confessions (01:09) The Terminator Test for trust (03:28) The hidden factor: benevolence (06:37) Dr. David Schoorman joins (07:32) Why emotion was left out of trust research (08:23) The trustor problem explained (09:59) Why Americans trust strangers more (11:15) The laptop-in-a-cafe test (12:18) Why your boss trusts you more (14:07) Should bosses share their story? (14:56) "Multiply the exchanges" (15:28) Has remote work broken trust? (17:43) Virtual teams need in-person time (18:09) Joe's A-Team Portugal offsite story (20:48) Never talk business in meeting one (21:13) ChatGPT emails erode connection (21:32) The pandemic generation's crisis (23:05) 85% of Gen Z track each other (24:18) "You're saying I don't trust you" (25:50) Deleting the tracking app worked (26:34) Workplace surveillance: Mad Men vs now (27:27) Don't use employee monitoring tools (29:19) How boss anxiety sabotages trust (30:03) Prevention vs. promotion focus (31:18) Transparency has a tipping point (32:19) "Transparency becomes control" (33:50) Toddler parenting as management (35:27) Can trust be repaired after betrayal? (37:12) "You're making up the story" (38:02) The Tiger Woods case studyListen and subscribe:Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2230ldzxpy4ghDz2WXCXJk Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-the-zag/id1873441245 Substack: https://storytellingedge.substack.com/podcastThe Art of the Zag is the podcast about people who win big by zagging when everyone else is zigging. Hosted by Joe Lazer (bestselling author of The Storytelling Edge and Super Skill) and Shane Snow (bestselling author of Smartcuts and Dream Teams). Get full access to The Storytelling Edge at storytellingedge.substack.com/subscribe

A 55-year-old man had metal plates ripped from his leg with zero painkillers. His vital signs stayed completely stable. How? The science of belief — and it changes everything you think about your limits.Bestselling author Nir Eyal (Hooked, Indistractable) joins Joe Lazer and Shane Snow to reveal why your biggest limitations aren't physical — they're psychological. His new book Beyond Belief breaks down how the hidden stories we tell ourselves shape what we see, what we feel, and what we achieve. This conversation will make you rethink everything from your relationships to your career to whether your IBS is real. (Joe's words, not ours.) In this episode:-The insane true story of Daniel Gisler's surgery under hypnosedation-Why Nir went from writing the tech addiction playbook to writing its cure-The "motivation triangle" — and the missing leg that explains why you don't follow through-How your brain filters 11 million bits of info down to 50 (and why that matters)-The 4 questions that transformed Nir's relationship with his family-Why most talk therapy might be no better than a placebo-The Harvard study where placebos worked even when patients knew they were fake-Why your labels might be your limits — and the ADHD diagnosis that proves it-Tyler Cowan, Kyla Scanlon, and the thinkers Nir, Joe, and Shane are following right now📖 Get Beyond Belief + bonus content (100-page belief transformation journal, live workshop, and more): https://www.nirandfar.com/beyond-belief/🌐 Follow Nir: https://www.nirandfar.com⏱️ Timestamps:(00:00) How Shane was a Mormon missionary in Joe's hometown(06:06) Nir Eyal joins the show(06:53) From Hooked to Indistractable: Nir's career as a zag(08:29) "I write because of what I want to know"(10:24) The moment with his daughter that changed everything(12:41) "Your book didn't work": the calls that inspired Beyond Belief(14:26) The motivation triangle(17:00) The 3 powers of belief: attention, anticipation, agency(17:26) How diets make food look physically bigger(19:02) The Daniel Gisler story: surgery with no anesthesia(20:42) Your brain processes 11 million bits per second(24:43) Chronic pain, tinnitus, and the fear-pain loop(25:07) "All pain is real. But suffering is optional."(30:42) Facts vs. faith vs. belief(32:24) The mom and the flowers(35:48) "Beliefs are tools, not truths"(37:22) How do you actually change a limiting belief?(38:05) Why most talk therapy is no better than placebo(39:22) Byron Katie's 4 questions(41:26) "Love is measured by the benefit of the doubt"(43:25) Joe's toddler vs. the fundamental attribution error(46:01) The placebo that works when you know it's fake(50:12) The I Love Lucy conveyor belt: AI and burnout(52:21) The scientific recipe for burnout(55:28) Agency as the antidote(01:01:07) "Is this belief serving me?"(01:01:21) The skeptic who started praying(01:02:03) Who's zagging: Tyler Cowan, Kyla Scanlon, Tim Urban(01:07:04) "Your labels are your limits"(01:09:28) Nir got himself diagnosed with ADHD on purpose(01:13:05) Where to get Beyond Belief + free journal🎧 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2230ldzxpy4ghDz2WXCXJk🍎 Listen on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-the-zag/id1873441245📬 Subscribe on Substack: https://storytellingedge.substack.com/podcastThe Art of the Zag is the podcast about people who win big by zagging when everyone else is zigging. Hosted by Joe Lazer (bestselling author of The Storytelling Edge and Super Skill) and Shane Snow (bestselling author of Smartcuts and Dream Teams). Get full access to The Storytelling Edge at storytellingedge.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, Shane Snow interviews Joe Lazer about his new book—Super Skill: Why Storytelling Is the Superpower of the AI Age, which launched this past week as an Amazon #1 New Release. They dissect why companies like Anthropic and OpenAI are paying $500K+ for storytelling roles, how storytelling serves as a meta-skill that makes us better at all the soft skills that matter most in the next age of work, and how AI will transform the way we tell stories. Watch/Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2230ldzxpy4ghDz2WXCXJkListen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-the-zag/id1873441245Watch and Subscribe on Substack: https://storytellingedge.substack.com/podcast Get full access to The Storytelling Edge at storytellingedge.substack.com/subscribe

There’s one terrifying fact about AI that most people are shocked to learn: They’re a black box. We don’t really know how they work.That’s right—we’re spending trillions of dollars on a technology that’s almost zoodoo magic.The consequences of this are dire. It increases the existential risk of AI. It also means that when a model runs awry, AI producers can’t debug it.But one startup is changing that with a novel approach to fixing AI that everyone in Silicon Valley thought was crazy. Just 18 months in, they're worth $1.25 billion, and might change the trajectory of AI—and our economy—in the process.Listen/watch to our conversation with Dan Balsam—CTO and co-founder of Goodfire:* Listen/watch on Spotify* Listen on Apple Podcasts* Watch it on YouTube* Watch/Listen/Subscribe on SubstackImportant research we mention:Goodfire’s research on discovering novel Alzheimer’s biomarkersGoodfire’s research on reducing AI hallucinations Get full access to The Storytelling Edge at storytellingedge.substack.com/subscribe

Following the murder of Alex Pretti by border patrol agents, it’s never been more important for us to be able to discern truth from reality and understand when we’re being manipulated. That’s why, for the second episode of The Art of the Zag, I wanted to have a conversation with my co-host Shane Snow about a semi-viral essay he wrote following the murder of Alex Pretti in Minnesota: “How to Tell When You’re Being Manipulated By a Story.” Shane has extensively researched and reported on the tactics used by authoritarians in Central and South America since the 1960s, and he revealed three key manipulation tactics you need to know.Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2230ldzxpy4ghDz2WXCXJk Listen on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-the-zag/id1873441245Listen and subscribe on Substack: https://storytellingedge.substack.com/ Get full access to The Storytelling Edge at storytellingedge.substack.com/subscribe

In the first episode of The Art of the Zag, Substack co-founder Hamish McKenzie reveals his strategy to cure social media's "mental illness" and how Substack will handle the coming deluge of AI slop. Plus, Joe and Shane's 2026 predictions! Have a pitch for a guest or feedback on the show? Email guest@joelazer.com.Get the Art of the Zag on:* Spotify* Apple Podcasts* YouTube Get full access to The Storytelling Edge at storytellingedge.substack.com/subscribe

Best-selling authors and long-time buddies Shane Snow and Joe Lazer explore how to win by zagging when everyone else is zigging—in business and in life. Learn breakthrough strategies for building trust, telling better stories, and winning the AI Age from the world's most innovative founders, authors, and icons. Have an idea for a guest? Email guest@joelazer.com. Get full access to The Storytelling Edge at storytellingedge.substack.com/subscribe