The Fireproof Podcast

Gary Sarner has spent 35 years in radio—and he believes most law firms approach broadcast advertising the wrong way.From spending time inside radio studios as a teenager to working in national sales and now guiding 36 law firms across 54 markets, Gary has seen what separates campaigns that build powerful brands from campaigns that simply burn through a budget.In this episode, Gary sits down with longtime friend Mike Morse to explain why firms cannot afford to dabble in radio, why owning an audience matters more than buying a few spots and how the right media partner can make the difference between wasted spending and market dominance.They also covered: → Why firms need to commit to a marketing channel instead of simply testing it → How radio ratings work—and why the numbers can be misleading → Why traditional attribution misses much of brand marketing’s impact → How a focused radio strategy helped TopDog Law expand into 39 markets → What it can cost to own the airwaves in a midsized market → Why advertisers need the cash flow and patience to survive the early months → How intentional creative helps firms connect with the right audience → Why 98% of law firm marketing is brand building and 2% is a call to action → How radio compares with television, streaming and YouTube → Why consistent messaging and a trusted partner matter The biggest takeaway: You cannot build market dominance by dipping your toe into advertising. Choose an audience, commit to a consistent brand and work with someone who knows how to make every dollar count.Gary, thank you for joining Mike and sharing what law firms need to know before investing in radio!Chapters 00:00 Intro 00:37 Meet Gary Sarner 01:47 Growing up around radio 03:42 Landing his first radio job 05:24 Learning to lead without becoming the bottleneck 06:34 Moving from radio sales to media buying 09:00 Serving 36 firms across 54 markets 09:07 Is radio advertising dead? 09:55 Why firms need to own a marketing channel 11:28 How radio ratings work 13:13 Evaluating stations in a new market 14:25 Why lawyers need experienced media buyers 14:57 The problem with marketing attribution 16:42 How TopDog Law scaled through radio 20:13 Trust, transparency and real KPIs 20:55 What it costs to own a midsized market 21:53 Preparing for the cash-flow gap 22:46 Why the creative and audience matter 24:39 Why dabbling in radio usually fails 25:11 Brand building versus calls to action 26:05 The mistake that causes campaigns to fail 27:23 Why your brand needs one consistent message 28:18 “Nobody listens to radio” 29:41 Radio versus television and streaming 32:14 Consolidation and the value of local talent 33:41 Who is still listening to radio? 35:22 YouTube as an alternative to television 36:35 Why radio buying goes beyond drive time 37:38 Finding a marketing partner you trust 38:04 Closing

Corey Vandenberg has spent more than 15 years helping law firms get found online—and he believes the rules of SEO are being rewritten in real time.Since 2019, Corey and Clixsy have managed the Mike Morse Law Firm’s SEO strategy. During that time, search has expanded beyond traditional organic results to include map packs, AI overviews and platforms like ChatGPT, Claude and Perplexity.In this episode, Corey sits down with Mike to explain why the old “blog about everything” model is losing ground, why local maps remain one of the strongest sources of high-intent leads and how law firms can use real case data to build authority in the age of AI.They also covered:→ Why informational website traffic is declining across the legal industry→ How AI decides which lawyers and law firms to recommend→ Why the most valuable content may already exist inside your cases→ How national ranking reports can create a misleading picture of performance→ What law firm owners should ask their SEO agencies→ Why reviews, Reddit, Yelp, social media and other third-party signals matter→ How brand building is making a major comeback in legal marketing→ Why traditional SEO remains the foundation of online visibilityThe biggest takeaway: SEO is not disappearing—it is evolving. The firms that build recognizable brands, strengthen their local authority and turn real experience into credible content will be positioned to stay visible wherever clients search.Corey, thank you for joining Mike and breaking down what law firm owners need to know about the rapidly changing search landscape!Chapters00:00 Intro00:34 Meet Corey Vandenberg of Clixsy01:31 How AI is rewriting law firm SEO01:54 Why “content is king” is changing02:56 How law firms can protect their visibility03:30 Why the gold is in your cases04:42 Creating case content without compromising clients05:22 Why the map pack still matters06:24 How AI decides which lawyers to recommend07:48 Questions to ask your SEO agency09:02 Why national ranking data can be misleading10:45 Competing with national firms in local markets12:03 Can AI identify firms that are not truly local?12:39 The third-party sources shaping AI answers14:10 Does organic search still generate cases?16:20 Understanding Google Search Console17:44 How to evaluate your website’s performance19:16 The return of brand building19:58 Why social signals matter more than ever20:34 Closing ~~~This episode is powered by Fireproof PerformanceReady to fireproof your firm?https://www.fireproofperformance.com/Connect with us!https://www.youtube.com/@FireproofPerformancehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/fireproof-performance/https://www.facebook.com/fireproofperformancehttps://www.instagram.com/fireproofperformance/

Josh Inkell is building a Delaware personal injury firm designed to punch above its weight.After nearly a decade defending doctors and insurance companies, Josh encountered a case that made him question which side he wanted to represent. Today, The Inkell Firm handles car crashes, nursing home abuse and medical malpractice—using the predictable revenue from auto cases to fund complex, high-cost litigation.But Josh’s connection to personal injury law is deeply personal. Twenty years ago, his sister Jenny was killed by a drunk driver while riding her bike home from work. Watching his uncle guide the family through the aftermath helped set Josh on a path toward becoming an attorney and fighting for people facing powerful institutions.In this episode, Josh sits down with Kate to explain how he operates what he calls “three firms in one,” uses AI to review thousands of pages of records and tracks the numbers that allow him to hire, market and scale with confidence.They also covered:→ Why different case types require completely different intake systems→ How AI is transforming medical malpractice case review and legal drafting→ Why introducing AI should make your team feel supported—not threatened→ How average case value and time on desk influence hiring and marketing decisions→ What a difficult business partnership taught Josh about ownership→ Why optimism and a “figure it out” mindset shape his leadership→ How the Fireproof community helps small firms compete at a higher levelJosh, thank you for joining Kate, sharing your story and making your first podcast appearance on The Fireproof Podcast!Chapters00:00 Intro00:36 Meet Josh Inkell01:08 Fighting for the small guy in Delaware02:25 Running three practice areas under one roof04:49 Building different intake systems for different cases05:32 Using AI to evaluate complex cases faster06:51 How AI changed document review and legal drafting08:31 Identifying viable medical malpractice cases09:27 The loss that inspired Josh to practice law11:19 Why he left insurance defense12:32 Taking a year to travel before law school16:22 Joining Fireproof Coaching and Masterminds18:08 Firm ownership and challenging broken systems19:18 Will AI replace legal jobs?21:56 Introducing AI without threatening your team23:00 Building an AI agent to open insurance claims25:19 Kate’s Burning Questions27:42 Using data to overcome imposter syndrome30:07 Marketing math and knowing when to spend more31:28 Choosing optimism through tragedy35:42 Building a “figure it out” culture39:28 The difficult end of a business partnership43:16 Rethinking attorney compensation44:09 AI, legal drafting and human review47:42 Is AI making us less capable?50:13 The risky decisions that changed Josh’s life51:11 The numbers every law firm owner should know54:42 Dollars per day and moving cases efficiently56:26 Finding the right caseload for your firm57:52 What lawyers should—and should not—be doing01:00:13 Why the Fireproof community stands apart01:02:02 ClosingConnect with Josh Inkell!https://www.linkedin.com/company/inkellfirm/https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshinkell/ ~~~This episode is powered by Fireproof PerformanceReady to fireproof your firm?https://www.fireproofperformance.com/

Jesse Callahan took an unconventional path from practicing attorney to law firm operator.After starting as a law clerk and gaining experience in pre-litigation, Jesse discovered that she was more energized by the business behind the practice. Today, as Chief of Staff, she connects teams, improves operations and helps turn leadership strategy into action.In this episode, Jesse joins Kate at the Fireproof Legal Production Summit in Chicago to explain why firms need strong processes before adding AI. She also shares why trust matters more than a title, where technology can create meaningful efficiency and why people will remain essential to the client experience.They also covered:→ What a Chief of Staff actually does inside a law firm→ How servant leadership builds credibility and team buy-in→ Why firms should strengthen their foundation before adopting AI→ How to decide whether a problem requires technology or another employee→ The data Jesse uses to monitor intake, settlements and cash flow→ Why traditional work-life balance can set leaders up for failure→ How radical candor makes difficult conversations more productiveJesse, thank you for joining Kate in Chicago and sharing an honest look at leadership, operations and the human side of building a better law firm!Chapters00:00 Intro00:27 Meet Jesse Callahan00:50 What a Chief of Staff does02:07 From practicing attorney to law firm operator03:16 Why trust matters more than credentials04:27 Building relationships and leadership credibility06:19 Servant leadership and asking better questions07:02 Redesigning the claims-handling process07:42 Building the foundation before adding AI08:47 Hiring in the age of AI10:08 Why technology still needs people12:16 The importance of human review13:26 Using AI to improve the client journey15:20 The emotional weight of client service18:06 The law firm metrics Jesse tracks18:53 Settlements, disbursements and the final client experience20:37 Kate’s Burning Questions21:08 Leadership lessons from Multipliers and Radical Candor21:49 The myths of work-life balance and “almost being there”28:47 Navigating guilt as a working parent34:10 Building habits around presence and priorities39:23 Clear expectations and difficult conversations44:14 Making hard decisions about the wrong people47:12 Transparency inside the Fireproof community48:44 Weekly accountability and coaching51:10 Closing thoughts~~~This episode is powered by Fireproof Performance.Ready to fireproof your firm?https://www.fireproofperformance.com/Connect with us!https://www.youtube.com/@FireproofPerformancehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/fireproof-performance/https://www.facebook.com/fireproofperformancehttps://www.instagram.com/fireproofperformance/

Riz Ali is building a personal injury firm in one of the country’s most competitive legal markets.With an eight-person team and Riz serving as the firm’s only attorney, he has grown without relying on television, radio or billboards. Instead, he shows up at community events, builds referral relationships, creates social media content and invests in learning from law firm owners who are further ahead.In this episode, Riz sits down with Mike Morse in Chicago to share why he joined the Fireproof Masterminds early in his career, what happened when he examined his firm’s numbers in detail and how that experience helped him identify his biggest priorities for growth.They also covered: → How community involvement builds trust without a massive advertising budget → Why language access matters when serving immigrant communities → How simple social media content can keep your firm top of mind → What law firm owners learn when they openly compare KPIs → Why small-firm owners cannot afford to wear every hat forever → How coaching and peer relationships can help firms avoid costly mistakes → Why investing in yourself is one of the smartest investments you can makeThe biggest takeaway: You do not need the biggest budget to build momentum. You need to know your numbers, show up consistently and learn from people who have already solved the problems in front of you.Riz, thank you for joining Mike in Chicago and sharing an honest look at what it takes to build a growing law firm early in your career!Chapters 00:00 Intro 00:28 Meet Riz Ali in Chicago 00:53 Discovering Fireproof 02:29 Building an eight-person firm as the only attorney 03:04 What sharing your numbers reveals 04:01 Why small-firm owners need support 05:03 Growing without television, radio or billboards 06:22 Building trust within your community 07:38 Digital advertising and social media 08:45 Creating social content in real time 10:34 Serving new communities authentically 12:24 Using food reviews to build community connections 14:26 The value of referrals and trusted peers 16:15 Wearing every hat in a small firm 17:16 The right time to find a coach 18:14 Comparing KPIs with other law firms 19:26 Knowing your numbers and cutting waste 20:55 The secret sauce behind faster growth 22:43 Why lawyers should not build alone 24:31 Investing in yourself and your firm 25:30 Building happy, healthy and successful lawyers ~~~This episode is powered by Fireproof PerformanceReady to fireproof your firm?https://www.fireproofperformance.com/Prefer to listen? https://open.spotify.com/show/7IaooNnVVvvQ483fPz7qAd?si=f9fce90599014a4dhttps://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-fireproof-podcast/id1895057184Connect with us!https://www.youtube.com/@FireproofPerformancehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/fireproof-performance/https://www.facebook.com/fireproofperformancehttps://www.instagram.com/fireproofperformance/