AI and the Law

In this episode Katherine Apps KC speaks with environmental law pioneer Stephen Tromans KC about similarities, differences and lessons which can be learned for AI from the development of environmental, nuclear, chemicals and contaminated land law. They touch on the balance between international and domestic legal toolmaking, the effectiveness, or otherwise, of human rights and the common law and how law can best work in the context of rapidly developing technology and complex market pressures.

In this episode Katherine Apps KC speaks with Jennie Thelen about the recent judgment of the First Tier Tribunal decision allowing Clearview AI’s appeal against the Information Commissioner’s fine for unlawful data processing for the development, marketing and use of AI software to “scrape” facial data from the internet and social media and for its use in facial recognition software. The Tribunal judgment is one of the first judgments in the EU to consider the scope of the GDPR territoriality provisions for personal data processing relating to monitoring of behaviour, and the carve outs for use in law enforcement by states and one of the first appeals to be heard against the fines levied on Clearview AI by multiple regulators across the world. Katherine and Jennie discuss extra territoriality more generally and the implications of the judgment for software which learns from worldwide data.

In this episode David Mitchell speaks with Barbora Bukovska from international freedom of expression organisation Article 19 about AI, freedom of expression and civil liberties.  David and Barbora discuss the recent European Court of Human rights judgment on the use of AI facial recognition on the Moscow Metro in Nikolay Glukhin v Russia (application no. 11519/20) in which Article 19 intervened, the proposed EU AI Act, and how other jurisdictions around the world are addressing facial recognition technologies.

In this episode Katherine Apps KC speaks with Imogen Ireland, Senior Associate at global law firm, Hogan Lovells about AI and Intellectual Property law. Katherine and Imogen talk about who owns and creates AI generated material in copyright law and whether AI can create inventions that could be protected by patent law.They discuss how these issues have arisen in recent cases and how the Courts’ analysis use concepts from other areas of law. They discuss the sorts of practical issue which arise when buying licenses of products which use AI and questions clients can ask so as to mitigate the risks and their predictions for the future.

In this episode Eimear McCann, Commercial Director at Trial view, discusses with Katherine Apps KC the uses of AI in commercial litigation software, both to mine large volumes of data and to generate answers, documents such as chronologies and help make commercial litigation more efficient. Eimear and Katherine also discuss the requirements of different Court rules and wider issues around protecting client confidentiality and what is different between working in the tech world and the legal world.

In this episode Patrick Brodie, Head of Employment, Engagement and Equality at law firm, RPC, discusses with Katherine Apps KC the issues raised by use of large language models (LLMs) such as ChatGPT in a law firm environment. Katherine and Patrick discuss what LLMS are, what firms need to think about when drafting AI policies, what LLMs could do in a law firm context, how AI will impact on the training solicitors of the future as well as wider reflections on the nature of being a lawyer, how we deal with fears, worries and opportunities posed by AI, working life generally, and what makes humans different from computers.

In this episode Bernie Maier a visiting Professor of Law at Kings College London in Cyberlaw shares his thoughts with David Mitchell on whether the teaching and learning of law will be changed by generative AI and if so, how. 

In this episode Professor Catherine Barnard, Professor of EU and Employment Law at the University of Cambridge discusses with Katherine Apps KC how discrimination claims could be litigated in the context of the use of AI.  Catherine discusses existing case law on algorithmic determinations and how the elements of a discrimination claim could be demonstrated by a claimant or organisation. Catherine and Katherine also discuss potential defences and liability by companies and public authority for contractors’ software and how this is likely to be approached.  Catherine also discusses the new proposal for an EU Platform Work directive and the structure used for regulation of algorithmic performance measures and whether it could become a blueprint used in other areas.

In this episode Michihiro Nishi, a partner at Clifford Chance in Tokyo discusses with David Mitchell his early experience of AI working as a lawyer in Silicon valley. Michihiro goes on to consider some of the current legal issues surrounding generative AI in Japan, including the lack of regulation and copyright protection which make Japan a “machine learning paradise” and pose a threat to the country’s creative industries including anime and manga. Michihiro also considers the reaction of the Japanese public to generative AI.

In this episode Baroness Shami Chakrabarti CBE, former director of Liberty and former Labour Attorney General 2016-2020, discusses with Katherine Apps KC the sorts of law she thinks is needed to regulate AI and what can be learned from other areas of law. She discusses the UK Government’s White Paper on AI, principle based regulation and how her views have changed since receiving briefings on AI during her role in the  House of Lords.  Shami also talks about what sort of legal regulatory framework might be capable of being developed in the UK while an international consensus is being developed.

In this episode Stephanie Boyce, the former President of the Law Society of England and Wales, discusses with David Mitchell the ethical implications of generative AI upon the legal profession including the potential for unlawful bias in its application. On a practical note Stephanie considers how lawyers’ everyday practices might be affected by generative AI and from the point of view of court users, whether lawtech can promote access to justice when parts of the population are digitally illiterate and in regions of England and Wales, there is inadequate broadband coverage.

In this episode 39 Essex Chambers CEO introduces the podcast series.  Katherine Apps KC and David Mitchell talk about the issues they will be discussing with their guests about over this series. They also define what they mean by AI, types of AI and talk about how they have encountered AI in their practice areas: covering contractual disputes, procurement, public law, human rights, data protection, equality law, defamation and privacy law. Katherine and David also introduce and each try to answer a question they will be asking all of their guests.