Australia in the World

Stephen Dziedzic of the ABC reported this past week on two significant deals the Australian government struck with the governments of Nauru and Papua New Guinea. He joins Darren to talk through how geopolitics, development, banking and finance and, yes, now the sport of rugby league, are all mixing together as Canberra sails into relatively uncharted waters in its foreign policy. Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Corbin Duncan and theme music composed by Rory Stenning. Relevant links Stephen Dziedzic, “Australia inks treaty with Nauru locking out growing Chinese influence”, ABC News, 9 December: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-12-09/australia-nauru-treaty-locks-out-china/104702002 Stephen Dziedzic, “Australia, PNG unveil deal for Papua New Guinea team to enter NRL in 2028”, ABC News, 12 December: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-12-12/png-australia-unveil-new-nrl-team/104716250 Stephen Dziedzic, “Friends and partners weigh up Canberra's 'relentless' Pacific push”, ABC News, 14 December: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-12-14/canberras-relentless-pacific-push/104723598 Pat Conroy, TV Interview, Sarah Ferguson, ABC 7.30 (transcript), 12 December: https://ministers.dfat.gov.au/minister/pat-conroy/transcript/tv-interview-sarah-ferguson-abc-730 APRA Chair John Lonsdale’s speech to the European Australian Business Council, 25 November 2024: https://www.apra.gov.au/news-and-publications/apra-chair-john-lonsdale%E2%80%99s-speech-to-european-australian-business-council Stephen Dziedzic, “Treasurer says government in 'final stages of negotiations' with ANZ to maintain bank's Pacific presence”, ABC News, 11 November: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-11-11/government-striking-deal-to-maintain-anz-bank-pacific-presence/104587514

As the world begins to think through the implications of a second Trump presidential term, Darren is joined once again by Zack Cooper of the American Enterprise Institute to talk through what we do know, and what we don’t, about the coming storm. What was Trump’s basic critique of the Biden administration's foreign policy? What are the competing camps on foreign policy inside Trumpworld? And what should Australia do, about AUKUS, the Quad, and the alliance generally? Does Kevin Rudd’s position remain tenable? There’s a lot to discuss, albeit with the caveat that we do not know much for certain at this point! Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Walter Colnaghi and theme music composed by Rory Stenning. Relevant links Zack Cooper (bio): https://www.aei.org/profile/zack-cooper/ Zack Cooper, Tides of Fortune: The Rise and Decline of Great Militaries (2025, Yale University Press): https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300268676/tides-of-fortune/ Net Assessment (podcast): https://warontherocks.com/category/podcasts/net-assessment/ Tanner Greer, “The Battle to Shape Trump’s China policy”, Foreign Policy Research Institute, 29 October 2024: https://www.fpri.org/article/2024/10/the-battle-to-shape-trumps-china-policy/ Ezra Klein Show (podcast), Vivek Ramaswamy Has a Different Vision for Trumpism From JD Vance, 29 October 2024: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/29/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-vivek-ramaswamy.html

The shock may not be quite as sharp as 2016, but the consequences could well be even more dire. Eliza Harvey of the ABC returns to join Darren in talking through thoughts, and feelings, in reaction to Donald Trump's stunning election victory.  Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Walter Colnaghi and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.

In an era where “economic security is national security”, arguably the most important perspective in how governments ought to intervene in the economy--in ways to maximise benefits and minimise costs--is that of the private sector. With that in mind, Darren welcomes Dr Huw McKay to the podcast to hear a business perspective on the economic security agenda and geoeconomics. Huw has just returned to Australia after living in Singapore for many years where he worked as Chief Economist at BHP. Prior to that he was an Executive Director at Westpac Bank and also spent time at the Commonwealth Treasury on secondment during the financial crisis. He holds a PhD in economics and economic history from ANU and his book, The Strategic Logic of China’s Economy, was published this year. The agenda for this conversation will be familiar to those thinking about economic security – how do we define it, is it simply all about China, what principles should guide industrial policy, how do we manage the weaponisation of supply chains and chokepoints, how can we counter economic coercion, and how can the rules-based order be preserved? As the Australian government builds out its “Future Made in Australia” agenda, this is exactly the type of conversation that is needed to inform the debate. Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Walter Colnaghi and theme music composed by Rory Stenning. Relevant links Huw McKay (LinkedIn): https://au.linkedin.com/in/huw-mckay-6ab582ab Huw McKay, The Strategic Logic of China’s Economy (2024): https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-031-47229-9 Hugh White, The China Choice: Why America Should Share Power (2012): https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/china-choice Graeme Snooks, The dynamic society: Explaining the sources of global change (1996) (Goodreads): https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1263694.The_Dynamic_Society The rest is history (podcast): https://www.goalhangerpodcasts.com/the-rest-is-history Huberman Lab (podcast): Esther Perel: How to Find, Build & Maintain Healthy Romantic Relationships: https://www.hubermanlab.com/episode/esther-perel-how-to-find-build-maintain-healthy-romantic-relationships

India has only been on the periphery of Darren’s professional vision since the dramatic headlines last year surrounding the killing of a Sikh activist in Canada and an indictment alleging a similar assassination attempt in the US. But 2024 has been a big year for India with its national election and PM Modi winning a 3rd term, but with a far smaller margin of victory than most expected. And with the Quad meeting recently being held in Joe Biden’s home state of Delaware, now is a good time to catch up on the world’s most populous country. To do that Darren invited back Ian Hall. Ian is a Professor of international relations at Griffith University and an Academic Fellow at the Australia India Institute. Darren asks what the election and post-election tell us about the trajectory of India’s democracy. They discuss whether India ought to be modelled as a ‘normal’ rising power and the nature (and limit) of China as the core organising principle of Western cooperation with India, with a focus on the Quad. Finally, they discuss the Indian diaspora in Australia. Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Corbin Duncan and theme music composed by Rory Stenning. Relevant links Ian Hall (biography): https://experts.griffith.edu.au/18600-ian-hall Ian Hall, Modi and the Reinvention of Indian Foreign Policy (Bristol U Press, 2021): https://bristoluniversitypress.co.uk/modi-and-the-reinvention-of-indian-foreign-policy Grand Tamasha (podcast): https://carnegieendowment.org/podcasts/interpreting-india Global India (podcast): https://www.brookings.edu/tags/global-india-podcast/ Vijay Gokhale, The Long Game: How the Chinese Negotiate with India (Penguin India, 2021): https://www.penguin.co.in/book/the-long-game/ Steve Randy Waldman, “Abundance is overcapacity”, Interfluidity Drafts (blog), 17 Sep 2024: https://drafts.interfluidity.com/2024/09/17/abundance-is-overcapacity/index.html

In the spirit of trying to channel his obsession with the US election in a (somewhat) productive way, Darren welcomes back Andrew Phillips from the University of Queensland to talk through the extent to which Trump is a ‘normal’ political candidate versus an existential threat to US democracy. Along the way, Darren cannot resist the temptation to introduce Francis Fukuyama’s “last man” model of political resistance, often overlooked when his “End of History” thesis is discussed. Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Walter Colnaghi and theme music composed by Rory Stenning. Relevant links Sohrab Ahmari, “There is an intellectual sickness on the American right”, The New Statesman, 11 September 2024: https://www.newstatesman.com/world/americas/north-america/us/2024/09/there-is-an-intellectual-sickness-on-the-american-right Andrew Dougall, Mediatizing the Nation, Ordering the World, Oxford University Press, 2024: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/mediatizing-the-nation-ordering-the-world-9780198882114?lang=en&cc=ru Zhang, F.J. “Political endorsement by Nature and trust in scientific expertise during COVID-19”, Nat Hum Behav 7, 696–706 (2023): https://doi.org/10.1038/s41562-023-01537-5 Tyler Cowen, “How public intellectuals can extend their shelf lives”, Marginal Revolution, 6 February 2020: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2020/02/how-public-intellectuals-can-extend-their-shelf-lives.html Miss Americana (documentary): https://www.netflix.com/au/title/81028336 The Ezra Klein Show, “On Children, Meaning, Media and Psychedelics”, 3 September 2024: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/03/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-jia-tolentino.html The Ezra Klein Show, “Zadie Smith on Populists, Frauds and Flip Phones”, 17 September 2024: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/17/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-zadie-smith.html Linkin Park, “The Emptiness Machine” (Official Music Video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRXH9AbT280 The Deep Life by Cal Newport (podcast): https://www.thedeeplife.com/listen/

Stephen Dziedzic of the ABC recently reported from the Pacific Islands Forum leaders retreat in Tonga. He joins Darren to unpack a very interesting meeting, focusing in particular on the Pacific Policing Initiative (and PM Albanese’s discussions with US Deputy Secretary of State Kurt Campbell, unintentionally recorded on camera) and a reference to Taiwan included in the original communique that was subsequently removed after Beijing forcefully objected (with another interesting exchange caught on camera). Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Corbin Duncan and theme music composed by Rory Stenning. Relevant links Stephen Dziedzic, “Pacific Islands leaders endorse regional policing initiative in strategic victory for Australia”, ABC News, 28 August: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-08-28/vanuatu-melanesia-officials-warn-policing-could-block-china/104277614 Stephen Dziedzic, “Anthony Albanese caught on camera joking about Pacific Policing Initiative with top US official Kurt Campbell”, ABC News, 29 August: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-08-29/albanese-top-us-official-filmed-in-private-chat-pacific/104283976 Stephen Dziedzic, “Pacific Islands Forum says error to blame for Taiwan reference in communique that angered China”, ABC News, 2 September: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-02/pacific-islands-forum-meeting-taiwan-reference-china-ambassador/104299186 John Le Carré, Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy (novel): https://www.penguin.com.au/authors/john-le-carre Odd Lots (Podcast), “How the White House Thinks About Economic Security”, 15 August: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-08-15/white-house-advisor-daleep-singh-on-economic-security?srnd=oddlots

One year ago, the Albanese Labor government launched the “New International Development Policy”. Darren invites back Bridi Rice, CEO of the Canberra-based Development Intelligence Lab, to assess where the policy stands 12 months in. They review the initial logic of the policy and discuss the role of Development Partnership Plans, the first two (for PNG and Indonesia) having been published. The discussion returns to the topic of integrating development practice and foreign policy, with the Falepili Union between Australia and Tuvalu used as an example. Darren also seeks Bridi’s views on “non-traditional” development policies like Taiwan and AUKUS!   Correction: The statistics in the think tank report are “Australia spends approximately $64b per year on foreign affairs, defence, development and intelligence. The total annual turnover among think tanks is around $64m". Bridi said $70b/$70m on the recording.   Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Walter Colnaghi and theme music composed by Rory Stenning. Relevant links DFAT “New International Development Policy” (2023): https://www.dfat.gov.au/development/new-international-development-policy DFAT, Australia’s – Papua New Guinea Development Partnership Plan 2024 – 2029: https://www.dfat.gov.au/publications/development/australias-papua-new-guinea-development-partnership-plan-2024-2029 DFAT, Australia – Indonesia Development Partnership Plan 2024-2028, https://www.dfat.gov.au/publications/development/australia-indonesia-development-partnership-plan-2024-2028 The Readout (podcast), “The Hon Pat Conroy x Australia's International Development Policy Anniversary Event”, 22 August 2024: https://www.devintelligencelab.com/readout/s6-patconroy William Leben and Bridi Rice, “Australia’s strategic policy think tank landscape”, June 2024: https://www.devintelligencelab.com/analyses/australias-strategic-policy-think-tank-landscape William Barton (composer): https://anam.com.au/theanamset/composers/williambarton Theodore Ell, Lebanon Days: Memories of an ancient land through economic meltdown, a revolution of hope and surviving the 2020 Beirut explosion, Allen & Unwin: https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/book/Theodore-Ell-Lebanon-Days-9781922928054

It is impossible to look away from US politics at the moment, and so Darren cannot help but keep his focus on the presidential election. Yet beyond the horse race are larger questions about the health of democracy in the US and indeed around the world, given the pressures democratic systems everywhere are facing. Trump’s unconventional (to say the least) political conduct reveals the seams or weaknesses in democratic systems that might have been difficult to see clearly in times of stability. The role of the media is one such example. While voters have been saying for months that Biden’s age is a problem, the relative silence in mainstream media on the issue (at least until after the first debate) arguably did not serve the interests of US democracy. To unpack this issue and many others besides, Darren is joined by Eliza Harvey. Eliza is the Executive Producer of the ABC panel discussion program Q+A, having first joined the ABC as a cadet in the mid-2000s and worked in many roles in and around journalism and the media ever since. She is also a US politics junkie, situating her ideally to discuss the current dynamics in the campaign, but also larger questions about the health of US democracy (and how we measure it), and the role played by the media and the public in keeping democracies strong. In a conversation recorded on 1 August, the two also venture predictions for Harris’ Vice-Presidential pick, which will be made known within 24 hours of this episode being published! Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Corbin Duncan and theme music composed by Rory Stenning. Relevant links Careers in International Affairs Panel (AIIA, ACT Branch), 13 August 2024, 5:30pm at University of Canberra: https://aiiaact.glueup.com/event/careers-in-international-affairs-panel-113718/ Q+A (ABC TV show): https://www.abc.net.au/qanda  Claire Keegan, Small Things Like These (book): https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/book/Claire-Keegan-Small-Things-Like-These-9780571368709 Boy Swallows Universe (TV series): https://www.netflix.com/au/title/81449940 YR (weather app): https://www.yr.no/en  

Just in case you needed one more 'emergency' politics podcast in the wake of the news that President Biden will not contest the US presidential election, and that it appears overwhelmingly likely that Vice President Harris will be nominated by the Democratic Party, Darren is joined by the ABC's Stephen Dziedzic to give their reactions, both personal and professional, on these remarkable events.  Is the US undergoing inexorable political decay, or can American democracy renew itself? Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Walter Colnaghi and theme music composed by Rory Stenning. Relevant links Sinica (podcast), Adam Tooze on the U.S., China, the Energy Transition — and Saying the Unsayable, 4 July 2024: https://sinica.substack.com/p/adam-tooze-on-the-us-china-the-energy 

China’s Premier Li Qiang successfully visited Australia last month. The loan of two more pandas captured headlines, but if one looks closely at how the visit unfolded it’s clear Australia faces a very complex strategic landscape. The Albanese government clearly wants to maintain a stabilised relationship with China under the PM’s manta “cooperative where we can, disagree where we must, and engage in the national interest”.  But what are the benefits and costs of that strategy, and are the trade-offs worth it? Darren is joined once again by Dr Ben Herscovitch of the ANU for a conversation that lays out alternative framings for the choices the Australian government is, and is not, making in how it manages the China bilateral, and whether these choices are in the national interest. A little while ago the podcast crossed 500,000 lifetime downloads! Thanks to all of you for giving up your time to listen. Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Corbin Duncan and theme music composed by Rory Stenning. Relevant links Noah Barkin LinkedIn post on German Economy Minister Habeck’s visit to China: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7210557349697122304/ “A Sustainable Economic Partnership for Partnership for Australia and China”, East Asian Bureau of Economic Research, Crawford School of Public Policy, ANU, May 2024: https://eaber.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/A-Sustainable-Economic-Partnership-for-Australia-and-China.pdf Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, “Statement regarding recent incidents in the South China Sea”, 18 June 2024: https://www.dfat.gov.au/news/media-release/statement-regarding-recent-incidents-south-china-sea Darren Lim and John Ikenberry, “China and the logic of illiberal hegemony”, Security Studies: (ungated) https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4244377  || (gated) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09636412.2023.2178963 Jennifer Hewett, “The contradictions in Australia’s China policy”, Australian Financial Review, 12 June 2024: https://www.afr.com/policy/foreign-affairs/the-contradictions-in-australia-s-china-policy-20240612-p5jl66 Deutschland 83 (TV series): https://tv.apple.com/au/show/deutschland-83/umc.cmc.4tlfhbbwsfeijwbe74so97qv6 Derisky Business (podcast): https://www.cnas.org/publications/podcast/everyone-loves-tariffs “Epistemic humility” mug on Etsy: https://www.etsy.com/au/listing/1751474343/epistemic-humility-ceramic-mug

Mike Pezzullo recently said that “the likelihood of conflict in this decade has been about 10 per cent, which is meaningful enough to plan for and indeed to be concerned about”. If Pezzullo’s assessment is correct, that means there is a 90 per cent chance that conflict will not happen. What is Australia’s plan for that (likely) scenario? This episode is about that 90% world, where Australia’s relationship with China will still matter greatly, as Beijing’s behaviour influences many of our interests, not just geopolitics and national security. How might Australia consider thinking about a cooperative agenda with the PRC? In the words of PM Albanese, his government’s approach is to “co-operate with China where we can, disagree where we must and engage in our national interest”. Where can we cooperate, especially given the deep freeze in political relations that the two countries are only now climbing out of? What does engagement in the national interest mean given the extent to which China can affect many things we care about? Darren is joined in this conversation by Dr Paul Hubbard. Paul is trained as an economist, first joining the Australian Public Service in 2006, and was sent from there to the ANU as a Sir Roland Wilson PhD Scholar in 2014.  More recently, in his capacity as a National Government Fellow at the ANU, Paul led a small team to produce a report - "A Sustainable Economic Partnership for Australia and China" that was launched in May. The report proposes an agenda for how Canberra and Beijing can take their economic relationship forward, and the two discuss that in the context of the broader question of what it means to develop a cooperative agenda with China and how should we think about the constraints imposed by geopolitics on that work? Note: the report reflects the views of the ANU research team, and Paul’s comments in this episode are in an unofficial capacity as an expert on the Chinese economy, and do not represent the views of the Australian Government or its agencies. Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Walter Colnaghi and theme music composed by Rory Stenning. Relevant links “A Sustainable Economic Partnership for Partnership for Australia and China”, East Asian Bureau of Economic Research, Crawford School of Public Policy, ANU, May 2024: https://eaber.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/A-Sustainable-Economic-Partnership-for-Australia-and-China.pdf Partnership for Change: Australia–China Joint Economic Report, Report authored by East Asian Bureau of Economic Research and China Center for International Economic Exchanges, August 2016: https://press.anu.edu.au/publications/partnership-change#:~:text=The%2520Australia%E2%80%93China%2520Joint%2520Economic,in%2520both%2520Australia%2520and%2520China. 2017 Foreign Policy White Paper: https://www.dfat.gov.au/sites/default/files/2017-foreign-policy-white-paper.pdf Paul Hubbard and Dhruv Sharma, “Understanding and applying long-term GDP projections”, EABER Working Paper Series, Paper No. 119, June 2016: https://eaber.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/EABER-Working-Paper-119-Hubbard-Sharma.pdf Paul Hubbard, A Wealth of Narrations: https://www.amazon.com.au/Wealth-Narrations-1-PC-Hubbard/dp/B0CR6TXX7C Chris Miller, Chip War: https://www.simonandschuster.com.au/books/Chip-War/Chris-Miller/9781398504127 The Ezra Klein Show, “Israelis Are Not Watching the Same War You Are:, Interview with Amit Segal, 14 June 2024: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/14/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-amit-segal.html

Joining Darren this episode is Jude Blanchette. Jude holds the Freeman Chair in China Studies at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS). There’s no-one whose analysis and commentary Darren values more highly in helping him understand China.   The context for this discussion is the fact that this weekend China’s Premier Li Qiang will visit Australia, the first visit by Chinese #2 since 2017. Following on from PM Albanese’s trip to Beijing late last year, and FM Wang Yi’s trip to Australia in March, Premier Li’s visit will continue the process of unfreezing the political relationship, what the current Australian government famously labels ‘stabilisation’. However, the Albanese government has not escaped criticism for its approach to China. Some would argue Canberra has gone softer on Beijing than it could have, whether on responding to dangerous actions by the Chinese military, or on perennial issues like human rights. And there’s also been a criticism of stabilisation as strategy – what is the goal of stabilisation? What is the end state? What is striking about these criticisms is how similar they are to criticisms of the Biden’s administration’s approach to China, which is often given the label ‘competition’. What is the goal of competition? Does the US just ‘compete’ indefinitely, a kind of steady-state, or should it be focused on an ‘end-state’? A recent piece by former Trump administration China lead Matt Pottinger and retiring GOP Congressperson Mike Gallagher argues that the goal should be not to compete, but to win. With all this as context, recently Australia’s Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade hosted a group of US-based China experts here in Canberra, presenting Darren with an opportunity to interview Jude in-studio. Jude also hosts the excellent Pekingology podcast, where he interviews scholars and researchers who study the actions of China’s government and the CCP in particular. In our conversation we cover Australia-China relations, US-China relations and the links between the two, and many other things besides. We start, of course, with the concept of stabilisation in the Australian context, but very quickly that broadens out into a discussion of the Biden approach given its parallels with stabilisation, and the Pottinger/Gallagher critique. We then turn to the question of how to influence China, and the balance between wielding direct influence versus working indirectly with partners. I ask Jude how he explains the apparent adjustment in PRC foreign policy in recent years, and how a potential Trump return to the Presidency might shake things up. Above all however the big question overshadowing our discussion is this: what’s the best way of forging a long-term China strategy, how early are we into the competition phase with China, and how long will it last? And what is the narrative needed to sustain such a strategy? Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Corbin Duncan and theme music composed by Rory Stenning. Relevant links Jude Blanchette (bio): https://www.csis.org/people/jude-blanchette Pekingology (podcast): https://www.csis.org/podcasts/pekingology  Matt Pottinger and Mike Gallagher, “No Substitute for Victory: America’s Competition With China Must Be Won, Not Managed”, Foreign Affairs, May/June 2024: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/no-substitute-victory-pottinger-gallagher David Engerman, Know your enemy: The Rise and Fall of America's Soviet Experts (book): https://global.oup.com/academic/product/know-your-enemy-9780195324860 The Gloaming (band): https://www.youtube.com/c/thegloaming Zach Bryan, “I remember everything” (feat. Kacey Musgraves): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVVvJjwzl6c

Two guests join Darren this week: Professor Joanne Wallis from the University of Adelaide and Professor Bec Strating from La Trobe University. They have recently published a book titled Girt by Sea: Reimagining Australia’s Security, published by Blank Inc. Their project is an ambitious one—to question the very foundations of what it means for Australia to be secure, and indeed who indeed it is that needs to be secure, and therefore how Australia should understand its strategic challenges and find lasting security. The importance of this book is demonstrated by fact that Foreign Minister Penny Wong launched it recently in Adelaide, where the Minister said that the questions the authors ask in the book are many of the questions she herself grapples with. This is not however a standard “let’s talk about my new book” episode, because when Darren read Girt by Sea he was struck how much the book’s arguments were consistent with what he understands to be “progressive” principles of foreign policy thought. While Bec and Joanne do not fully embrace the progressive label for their work, it is nevertheless an interesting and arguably useful lens to frame the conversation, including the authors’ ‘reimagining’ project. In contrast, Darren would not label himself as a progressive thinker and disagrees with the book’s starting premise that Australian security needs reimagining, perhaps revealing himself to be a cranky conservative! But, hopefully, disagreement makes for an engaging conversation. Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Corbin Duncan and theme music composed by Rory Stenning. Relevant links Joanne Wallis (bio): https://researchers.adelaide.edu.au/profile/joanne.wallis Bec Strating (bio): https://scholars.latrobe.edu.au/bstrating Girt by Sea: Re-Imagining Australia's Security (Black Inc, 2024): https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/girt-sea-0 Bisley, N., Eckersley, R., Hameiri, S., Kirk, J., Lawson, G., & Zala, B. (2022). “For a progressive realism: Australian foreign policy in the 21st century”. Australian Journal of International Affairs, 76(2), 138–160. https://doi.org/10.1080/10357718.2022.2051428 Van Jackson, Grand Strategies of the Left: The Foreign Policy of Progressive Worldmaking (Cambridge University Press, 2023): https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/grand-strategies-of-the-left/966D16DBED1238269D1B4816F41AEF7D Statecraftiness: Mapping Competition, Cooperation, and Coercion in the Pacific Islands: https://www.adelaide.edu.au/stretton/our-research/security-in-the-pacific-islands/statecraftiness Asia Rising (podcast): https://www.latrobe.edu.au/asia/podcasts Taylor Swift, “Florida!!!” (feat. Florence + The Machine) (Official Lyric Video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEssK8o3jKg

Recent events in economic security (or, geoeconomics) have been dizzying, but exciting for Darren given this is his primary academic field. In Australia, the new budget delivered by the government plans over $20b of industry policy funding for a “Future Made in Australia”. Meanwhile in the US, the Biden Administration has sharply increased tariffs on Chinese goods focused on green energy. The US wants to cultivate domestic manufacturing, in part because it sees PRC dominance of green technology as a national security risk. This means there is a lot to discuss! In this episode Darren talks with Hayley Channer. who is the Director of the Economic Security Program with the United States Studies Centre at the University of Sydney. Hayley has a diverse background having worked as an Australian Government official, Ministerial adviser, think tank analyst, and represented global non-profit organisations. Prior to her current role, Hayley was a Senior Policy Fellow with the Perth USAsia Centre and, amongst other accolades, was awarded a Fulbright Scholarship in 2022. This lengthy discussion covers the goals of economic security policy and the inherent trade-offs in this domain, particularly in the context of both Australia’s and the US’ emerging industrial policy efforts, as well as the problem of responding to economic coercion. Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Walter Colnaghi and theme music composed by Rory Stenning. Relevant links Hayley Channer (bio): https://www.ussc.edu.au/hayley-channer Anthony Albanese, “A future made in Australia”, Speech, 11 April 2024: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/future-made-australia Jim Chalmers, “Economic security and the Australian opportunity in a world of churn and change”, Speech at Lowy Institute, 1 May 2024: https://ministers.treasury.gov.au/ministers/jim-chalmers-2022/speeches/address-lowy-institute-sydney Hayley Channer and Georgia Edmonstone, “What does ‘economic security’ mean to Australia in 2024?”, US Studies Centre Brief, 30 January 2024: https://www.ussc.edu.au/what-does-economic-security-mean-to-australia-in-2024 Lim, D. (2019). Economic statecraft and the revenge of the state. East Asia Forum Quarterly, 11(4), 31–32: https://eastasiaforum.org/2019/12/04/economic-statecraft-and-the-revenge-of-the-state/ Ferguson, Victor A., Darren J. Lim, and Benjamin Herscovitch. “Between Market and State: The Evolution of Australia’s Economic Statecraft.” The Pacific Review 36, no. 5 (September 3, 2023): 1148–80. https://doi.org/10.1080/09512748.2023.2200026 Victor A. Ferguson, Scott Waldron and Darren J. Lim (2022), “Market Adjustments to Import Sanctions: Lessons from Chinese Restrictions on Australian Trade, 2020-21”, Review of International Political Economy”, http://doi.org/10.1080/09692290.2022.2090019 Darren J. Lim, Benjamin Herscovitch, and Victor A. Ferguson, “Australia’s Reassessment of Economic Interdependence with China”, in Strategic Asia (2023): https://www.nbr.org/publication/australias-reassessment-of-economic-interdependence-with-china/ Leading (podcast), “Speaking Truth to Trump | Former Head of Trump’s Communications, Anthony Scaramucci”, 21 February 2024: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juvfEZsZqUY&list=PL_6zDbB-zRef_M7eXuSLUlGnt7qk66hJq&index=9 Abhijit V. Banerjee, Esther Duflo, Good economics for hard times: Better answers to our biggest problems (2019): https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51014619-good-economics-for-hard-times (Goodreads page) Dani Rodrik, “Don’t Fret About Green Subsidies”, Project Syndicate, 10 May 2024: https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/green-subsidies-justified-on-economic-environmental-and-moral-grounds-by-dani-rodrik-2024-05

Zack Cooper of the American Enterprise Institute joins Darren to discuss the troubling trend of PRC military actions that are endangering Australian personnel and equipment, and those of our partners. Last week, a Chinese fighter aircraft dropped flares into the path of an Australian helicopter that was conducting a patrol in international waters as part of sanctions-enforcement against North Korea. Australia lodged diplomatic protests and PM Albanese called the action ‘completely unacceptable’. Similar incidents have happened before. Last year Australian naval divers suffered minor injuries after a Chinese warship released sonar pulses, and there have been other aerial incidents as well. Why are Chinese forces doing this? Can Australia respond, either unilaterally or with partners? Is an increasingly risky maritime domain now simply part of the price of protecting our interests? Zack talks Darren through his perspective on these issues. Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Walter Colnaghi and theme music composed by Rory Stenning. Relevant links Andrew Greene, “Australian helicopter forced to take evasive action after Chinese fighter detonates flares”, ABC News, 6 May 2024: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-06/australian-helicopter-chines-fighter-flares-hmas-hobart/103812042 Euan Graham, “China’s latest unsafe interception at sea was no accident”, ASPI Strategist, 8 May 2024: https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/chinas-latest-unsafe-interception-at-sea-was-no-accident/#:~:text=China%20habitually%20denies%20engaging%20in,endangered%20China's%20maritime%20air%20security Sam Roggeveen, “Helicopter flare up should highlight China’s base instincts”, Lowy Interpreter, 7 May 2024: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/helicopter-flare-should-highlight-china-s-base-instincts Corey Lee Bell and Elena Collinson, “The Yellow Sea flare incident: Expect more of the same”, ACRI Perspectives, 13 May 2024: https://www.australiachinarelations.org/content/perspectives-yellow-sea-flare-incident-expect-more-same Nicholas Eberstadt, “East Asia’s Coming Population Collapse: And How It Will Reshape World Politics”, Foreign Affairs (online), 8 May 2024: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/china/east-asias-coming-population-collapse Net Assessment (podcast): https://warontherocks.com/category/podcasts/net-assessment/

Stephen Dziedzic of the ABC once again joins Darren to discuss a busy month of news, starting with the recent election in Solomon Islands, then a bombshell Washington Post story about the alleged involvement of the Indian government in targeted killings (with a strong Australian angle); next the recent 2+2 bilateral with South Korea and the possibility of others joining onto AUKUS Pillar 2, and finishing with FM Penny Wong’s statement that statehood for Palestine is required to break the cycle of violence. This episode was recorded on Friday 3 May, exactly one year following the death of Allan Gyngell. He is dearly missed. Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Walter Colnaghi and theme music composed by Rory Stenning. Relevant links Stephen Dziedzic, Chrisnrita Aumanu-Leong, Evan Wasuka and Doug Dingwall, “Former diplomat Jeremiah Manele elected as new Solomon Islands prime minister”, ABC News, 2 May 2024: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-02/solomon-islands-new-prime-minister-election-jeremiah-manele/103791138 Greg Miller, Gerry Shih and Ellen Nakashima, “An assassination plot on American soil reveals a darker side of Modi’s India”, Washington Post, April 29, 2024: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/29/india-assassination-raw-sikhs-modi/ Penny Wong, “Speech to the ANU National Security College “Securing our Future”, 9 April 2024: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/penny-wong/speech/speech-anu-national-security-college-securing-our-future Bettany Hughes, “The Seven Wonders of the Ancient World” (book): https://www.hachette.com.au/bettany-hughes/the-seven-wonders-of-the-ancient-world Serial, Season 4 (podcast): https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/podcasts/serial-season-four-guantanamo.html   Ezra Klein Show (podcast), “Salman Rushdie is not who you think he is”, 26 April 2024: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/26/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-salman-rushdie.html

In the third episode of a mini-series on international order, Darren is joined by Amy King, an Associate Professor at the Australian National University, to discuss China. It is now cliché to say that China is having a major impact on the current order and its trajectory, but there is little agreement on what that impact is and how far it might go. Darren has taken a keen interest in this question in his academic research, co-authoring a paper titled “China and the logic of illiberal hegemony” with John Ikenberry that was published in 2023. The journal’s editors subsequently invited two scholars to write critiques, one of those being Amy King.   Darren opens by seeking Amy’s views on whether the “post-Cold War order” is a useful starting point to discuss China’s influence, and whether she agrees with US Secretary of State Blinken that that this particular order is at an end. They then turn to Darren’s paper, with Darren describing his model of “illiberal hegemony”, where China’s approach to order-building is partially extrapolated from its domestic models of political order and economic organisation. Amy has multiple disagreements both with the model and its implications, which makes for an engaging back-and-forth. This is another long and wonkish conversation, but returns continuously to practical questions, such what Australian diplomats might say when defending the (old) order to their colleagues across the region. Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Corbin Duncan and theme music composed by Rory Stenning. Relevant links Amy King (bio): https://amykingonline.com/ Darren Lim and John Ikenberry, “China and the logic of illiberal hegemony”, Security Studies: (ungated) https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4244377  || (gated) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09636412.2023.2178963 Amy King, “The Collective Logic of (Chinese) Hegemonic Order”, Security Studies: (ungated) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09636412.2023.2253148 Matthew Stephen, “China and the Limits of Hypothetical Hegemony”, Security Studies: (ungated) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09636412.2023.2259801 Darren Lim and John Ikenberry, “China and Hegemony: An Exchange – The Authors Reply”, Security Studies (gated, contact Darren for a copy): https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09636412.2023.2252735 Richard Flanagan, “Question 7” (novel): https://www.penguin.com.au/books/question-7-9781761343452 Sam Sachdeva, “The China tightrope: Navigating New Zealand's relationship with a world superpower: https://www.allenandunwin.co.nz/browse/book/Sam-Sachdeva-China-Tightrope-9781991006172/

In the second episode in a mini-series on international order, Darren is joined by Dr. Jenny Gordon to discuss the international economic order. Over the past 40 years Australia has arguably been the single greatest beneficiary of the post-war economic order, at least among the group of industrialised countries. But from the GFC to Brexit to paralysis in the WTO to the rise of weaponised interdependence, geoeconomics and industrial policy, the rules and institutions of that old economic order – and the international trade and investment that flourished within it – are all under threat. Dr Jenny Gordon is an Honorary Professor at POLIS: The Centre for Social Policy Research at the Australian National University and a non-resident fellow at the Lowy Institute. Jenny had a long career in government, most recently as Chief Economist at DFAT from 2019 to 2021. Prior to that she spent 10 years at the Productivity Commission as the Principal Advisor Research, worked in the private sector, and began her professional career at the Reserve Bank of Australia. She holds a PhD in economics from Harvard University. The conversation begins with the question: what was the old economic order, when did it begin and what did it do? As an economist, Jenny says the end of the Cold War is not a key turning point for the post-war economic order, one must go back to the 1970s and forward to 2000s find these turning points. She describes why the order worked well and how Australia did so well within it. The discussion moves to the problems and tensions that emerged that have led us to the current moment, and the two debate – and disagree slightly – on the actual state of the current economic order. Finally, they look to the future, and discuss industrial policy, climate change, alternative models of economic growth and, of course, geopolitics, as well as what the rules and institutions of the future might need to do to protect the benefits of economic openness while managing contemporary policy challenges like climate change. Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Walter Colnaghi and theme music composed by Rory Stenning. Relevant links Jenny Gordon (bio): https://www.lowyinstitute.org/jenny-gordon The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Moons_of_Maali_Almeida Peter Bellwood, The Five-Million-Year Odyssey: The Human Journey from Ape to Agriculture: https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691197579/the-five-million-year-odyssey 99 Percent Invisible (podcast): https://99percentinvisible.org/ Lupin (Netflix): https://www.netflix.com/au/title/80994082 Huberman Lab Podcast, “Dr. Becky Kennedy: Protocols for Excellent Parenting & Improving Relationships of All Kinds”, 26 February 2024: https://www.hubermanlab.com/episode/dr-becky-kennedy-protocols-for-excellent-parenting-improving-relationships-of-all-kinds

China's foreign minister, Wang Yi, visited Australia this week. The visit attracted a great deal of scrutiny, not just for the long list of issues in the bilateral relationship, but also Wang's meeting with former Prime Minister Paul Keating. Stephen Dziedzic of the ABC joins Darren to discuss the week's events. Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Walter Colnaghi and theme music composed by Rory Stenning. Relevant links Stephen Dziedzic, “Tibetan activists protest outside Chinese embassy against Foreign Minister Wang Yi's visit”, ABC News, 20 March 2024: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-20/apn-protest-outside-chinese-embassy-as-wang-yi-visits/103611798 Daniel Flitton, “Don’t be timid about Trump, Australia, just roll with the punches, Lowy Interpreter, 21 March 2024: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/don-t-be-timid-about-trump-australia-just-roll-punches