Claim OwnershipBehind the Craft
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© Peter Yang
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Expert interviews and guides to help you level up as a product leader and creator fast.
41 Episodes
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My guest today is Sachin Rekhi.
Sachin scaled LinkedIn’s Sales Navigator to $200M ARR and 500 employees. He then left it all behind to start Notejoy; a team notes app. I had a great chat with him about finding market fit for your product and career in 2025 and how to design work to suit your life, not vice versa.
Timestamps:
(00:00) I got my dream PM job then realized I didn’t want it
(02:19) The MVP is dead
(08:02) Execution is NOT the only thing that matters
(09:40) A proven loop to achieve product-market fit
(14:18) Better ways to validate your product than MVPs
(20:01) How to even measure product-market fit
(26:03) Why Sachin opted out of the path to VP
(29:16) Aligning your career with your zone of genius
(36:18) I saw the small team trend coming
(40:38) Use explore-exploit to find your dream career
(44:01) Closing tips to design your life with purpose
Get the takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/rethink-your-pm-career-in-2025-sachin-rekhi
Where to find Sachin:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sachinrekhi/
Website: https://www.sachinrekhi.com/
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My guest today is Deb Liu.
Deb is the CEO of Ancestry, former VP at Meta, and writer of Perspectives. But for our interview, I wanted to talk to Deb about a more personal topic: How to survive and thrive as a busy working parent with your spouse, aging parents, and kids. In our interview, Deb shared her best advice on building a 60-60 relationship with your spouse, raising resilient kids, caring for aging parents, and dealing with grief.
Timestamps:
(00:00) How to stop parenting through guilt
(01:19) Building a 60-60 relationship with your spouse
(03:05) Choosing your marriage swim lanes
(05:41) A simple ritual for authentic family conversations
(09:51) Why the world isn't set up for two working parents
(12:24) How to solve stressful mornings
(17:29) The sandwich generation and dealing with grief
(21:38) How to build your modern village
(27:49) Raising resilient kids as a busy parent
(35:19) Closing words of advice for balancing career and family
Get the takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/how-to-survive-and-thrive-as-a-busy-working-parent
Where to find Deb:
Newsletter: https://debliu.substack.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deborahliu/
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My guest today is Mike Knoop, co-founder of Zapier.
Mike co-founded Zapier and started the ARC Prize to accelerate progress towards open AGI. We had a great chat about how Zapier works, how PMs and marketers can use AI to automate even more work, and why LLMs won’t reach AGI by themselves.
Timestamps:
(00:00) There are two types of AI automation
(01:57) How Zapier automation works
(05:14) I quit being Zapier's CPO to do AI research
(07:54) I gave employees a week off to just use AI(11:57) How PMs can use AI agents to save time
(14:03) We saved $100K by using AI agents in marketing
(21:28) Robotic process automation might be better than APIs
(26:30) Most definitions of AGI are wrong
(30:45) Why LLMs won't get us to AGI and what might work instead
Get the takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/zapier-co-founder-ai-agents-10x-productivity-mike-knoop
Where to find Mike:X: https://x.com/mikeknoopWebsite: https://mikeknoop.com/
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My guest today is Jiaona Zhang, CPO of Linktree.
JZ is the Chief Product Officer of Linktree and a guest lecturer at Stanford. We had a great chat about AI’s impact on PM managers and super ICs, the shift towards PM specialists, and whether becoming a creator can help advance your PM career.
(00:00) Find what makes you happy in your PM career
(01:44) AI's impact on PM managers and super ICs
(04:03) How to balance strategy and execution
(08:24) Streamlining PM tasks with AI
(13:28) Creating strategy docs and PRDs that work
(16:50) Your career is your most important product
(22:55) The shift from PM generalists to specialists
(23:58) Exploring JZ's Career Odyssey framework
(25:49) Why you shouldn't just optimize for comp and title
(31:12) Does the creator economy actually work?
(44:19) Can being a creator help advance your product career?
Get the takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/how-the-product-manager-role-is-changing-jiaona-zhang
Where to find Jiaona:
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jz
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jiaona/
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My guest today is Niels Hoven, founder and CEO of Mentava.
Niels founded Mentava, an education startup teaching 2-year-olds to read at the 2nd-grade level. We had a great chat about why K-12 education is broken for high-achieving kids, whether AI will unlock personalized learning, and how his software teaches 2-year-olds to read.
Timestamps:
(00:00) Our schools don't work for high-achieving kids
(01:26) The problem with K-12 education in the US
(03:08) Why California banned 8th grade algebra
(10:11) Never be ashamed of advocating for your kids
(14:21) How Niels homeschooled 3 kids during COVID
(19:25) Teaching 2-year-olds to read like 2nd graders
(25:24) Rethinking how we teach kids math
(28:44) Will AI replace teachers?
(30:34) Will elite college credentials still matter?
(35:29) Tips for parents to raise high-achieving kids
Get the takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/why-education-is-broken-for-high-achieving-kids-niels-hoven
Where to find Niels:
X: https://x.com/NielsHoven
Website: https://www.mentava.com/
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My guest today is Aravind Srinivas, CEO and co-founder of Perplexity.
Aravind is the CEO of Perplexity, the AI answer engine disrupting online search. Aravind gave me an inside look at how Perplexity builds products, how it scaled to 100M queries a week, and how it’ll deliver better ads than Google’s ten blue links.
Timestamps:
(00:00) We don't do product reviews
(01:22) The secret to Perplexity's incredible shipping velocity
(05:16) Giving feedback as a user instead of as the CEO
(07:01) How Perplexity decides what to build next
(10:56) Perplexity's "7 friends in 10 days" metric
(14:02) How Perplexity uses AI to build Perplexity
(17:30) How to get a great job without traditional credentials
(21:50) Key drivers behind Perplexity's growth to 100M queries
(27:50) The future of search ads and why 10 blue links are dead
(35:56) Closing advice to get what you want out of life
Get the takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/inside-how-perplexity-is-disrupting-search-aravind-srinivas
Where to find Aravind:
X: https://x.com/AravSrinivas
Website: https://www.perplexity.ai/
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My guest today is Cem Kansu.
Cem is the Head of Product at Duolingo. Over 8 years, he helped Duolingo grow to 100M+ monthly active users and $500M+ in annual revenue. I had a super fun chat with Cem about Duolingo's unhinged product culture, the top drivers of Duolingo's user and revenue growth, and whether AI will democratize education.
Timestamps:
(00:00) We love being unhinged with our owl
(01:26) Duolingo is a game and this is our core loop
(03:46) The top 3 drivers of Duolingo's growth to 100M users
(05:55) Passive-aggressive push notifications work!
(08:12) How Duolingo onboards new users to maximize retention
(13:11) Our winding path to $500M+ in revenue
(17:25) We've figured out how international expansion works
(21:13) Will AI kill Duolingo?
(26:20) We made Lily an AI emo teenager on purpose
(32:41) How to A/B test without sacrificing quality
(37:09) What the best PMs at Duolingo have in common
Get the takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/inside-duolingo-unhinged-growth-to-500m-cem-kansu
Where to find Cem:
X: https://x.com/cemkansu
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cemkansu/
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My guest today is Satish Mummareddy, ex-product leader at Meta.
During his 6 years at Meta as an IC7 product leader, Satish interviewed 200+ PM candidates and mentored 100+ PMs. We had a great chat about how to crack the PM interview, choose the right job offer, and find strong mentors.
Timestamps:
(00:00) How not to let rejection get you down
(01:53) Hot takes after interviewing 200+ PMs at Meta
(05:14) Why experienced PMs often struggle in interviews
(09:13) 3-month plan to crush interviews at top tech companies
(15:05) How to uplevel your product thinking skills
(20:10) Why interview frameworks aren't enough
(27:31) How to avoid getting down-leveled
(30:01) Choosing the right company to join
(36:24) 3 steps to find great mentors and sponsors
(40:25) Deliberate practice, career arcs, and mental fitness
Get the takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/meta-product-leader-cracking-the-pm-interview-satish
Where to find Satish:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/satishmummareddy/
Course: https://maven.com/crossing-career-chasms/product-thinking
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My guest today is Tomer Cohen, Chief Product Officer at LinkedIn.
Tomer gave me an inside look at LinkedIn’s growth from 100M to 1B+ users by transforming its feed. He also shared his best advice on growing AI products and advancing your PM career. Finally, I had to ask him about r/LinkedinLunatics. 🙂
Timestamps:
(00:00) 3 must-have principles for building AI products
(02:55) Revamping the LinkedIn feed for knowledge-sharing
(06:15) Why it's so hard to be a feed PM and how Tomer overcame doubts
(11:09) r/LinkedInLunatics and the role of humor on LinkedIn
(13:18) How newsletters and videos can succeed on LinkedIn
(18:24) "Thinking fast and slow" as an AI PM
(22:22) How to deal with AI's non-deterministic nature
(24:49) "Founder mode" and traits that the best PMs have
(27:52) How to design an org to reward impact more than optics
(31:29) The best way to land your dream job isn't to apply to everything
Get the takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/linkedins-cpo-on-growing-to-1b-with-ai-tomer-cohen
Where to find Tomer:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomercohen/
- Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/34ScXLvdmBeZ2Yza7ZWtLi
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My guest today is Sanchan Saxena, SVP at Atlassian.
Sanchan worked directly with 4 of the best founders out there — Kevin Systrom and Mike Krieger (Instagram), Brian Armstrong (Coinbase), and Brian Chesky (Airbnb). In our chat, he shares what we can learn from each founder’s superpowers and the 4 traits he always looks for when hiring exceptional PMs.
(00:00) The secret product approach that sets Airbnb and Apple apart
(01:21) Inside Instagram's early days at 100 employees
(03:07) Kevin Systrom and Mike Krieger's superpowers
(04:54) How "do the simple thing first" led to Instagram Stories' success
(07:15) The single common trait shared by the greatest founders
(08:50) Brian Armstrong's golden rule, "No decision by committee"
(13:36) "Unconstrained thinking" with Brian Chesky at Airbnb
(18:21) What Brian Chesky learned from Disney movies and storytelling
(23:29) Why obsessing over metrics kills product quality
(27:43) Shifting focus to prioritize customers and craft in your company
(30:55) Climbing the ladder From PM to product director and VP
(33:38) Mastering the yin and yang of product management
(42:02) How to set yourself up to get lucky in your career
Get the takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/sanchan-instagram-airbnb-coinbase
Where to find Sanchan:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sanchans/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@therealsanchan
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My guest today is Ben Tossell, founder of Ben's Bites.
Ben built a 7-figure business that has taught 10,000+ people how to use AI to save time and automate work. In less than a year, this business has already made more than his last exit (selling no-code platform MakerPad to Zapier).
Timestamps:
(00:00) AI is your co-pilot, it's not the end to end solution yet
(00:56) I scaled to $1M+ by avoiding things I hate doing
(03:11) Key drivers of growing to 7-figures in 9 months
(10:44) What to automate with AI vs. delegate to teammates
(15:30) How to find and hire help online
(17:22) Has the community been critical to the business?
(22:09) The art of writing great AI prompts
(25:42) Ben's bear take on Perplexity
(29:36) My defense of Perplexity
(33:18) Why all of us are winners from the AI race
(36:17) Underrated AI tools for illustrations, videos, and more
(40:02) How to build a business to suit your life, not vice versa
Get the takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/how-i-built-a-7-figure-business-with-ai-ben-tossell
Where to find Ben:
Website: https://bensbites.com/
X: https://x.com/bentossell
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My guest today is Marily Nika, AI Product Lead at Google.
Marily built AI products at Meta and Google for 12+ years after getting a PhD in machine learning. She's also a top AI instructor who has given talks at TED, Harvard, and through her top-rated AI course and newsletter.
Timestamps:
(00:00) Anyone can be an AI PM
(01:22) A crash course on core AI concepts
(01:51) AI algorithms and applications map
(06:38) Traits that the best AI PMs have in common
(09:53) How to get leadership buy-in for AI products
(11:37) A day in the life as an AI PM
(14:51) How to break into AI product management
(20:25) How to avoid the retention problem for AI products
(23:08) A live demo of ChatGPT Voice
(33:39) How Marily uses AI in her personal life
Get the takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/how-to-break-into-ai-product-management
Where to find Marily:
Newsletter: https://marily.substack.com/
Course: https://maven.com/marily-nika/ai-pm-bootcamp
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My guest today is Justin Welsh, a 7-figure solopreneur and creator.
Justin burned out from startups in 2019 after suffering from a panic attack. Since then, he’s built an $8M one-person business and an audience of millions. His new course, Creator MBA, is one of the highest value-to-time courses I’ve ever taken.
Timestamps:
(00:00) The specific path to build an $8M solo business
(01:47) Leaving the career ladder after a panic attack
(05:53) How to build a side hustle while employed
(08:41) An exercise to take back your time
(12:59) Finding your niche and unique value proposition
(16:12) Validating your business idea with real customers
(19:02) Creating a movement and identifying your "enemy"
(23:00) A simple creator funnel to scale solo businesses
(27:01) Changes that led to big growth in Justin's business
(27:29) How Justin uses AI to optimize his funnel
(31:23) Specific vs generic paths to succeed as a creator
(39:22) Closing advice for tech people to take back control of their careers
Get the interview takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/how-i-built-an-8m-solo-business-justin-welsh
Where to find Justin:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justinwelsh/
Newsletter: https://www.justinwelsh.me/newsletters
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My guest today is Shishir Mehrotra, co-founder and CEO of Coda.
Shishir is the co-founder and CEO of Coda and was YouTube's Chief Product Officer. We had a great chat about what I think is the best framework to grow your career, how a PM applied it to build a 0 to $1B product in 18 months, and other rituals to level up your strategy and leadership.Brought to you by: - Amplitude: Get their North Star playbook for free: https://bit.ly/4fPxUmg
Timestamps:
(00:00) From 0 to $1B in just 18 months
(01:27) Introducing Shishir
(01:41) The best career growth framework you've never heard of
(03:35) Scope is the wrong metric to evaluate PMs
(07:12) Why PSHE applies to all functions(10:13) Breaking into PM at Google using PSHE
(17:34) Solving obvious problems without stepping on toes
(24:23) The most underrated skill for PMs
(26:16) The WOW framework for strategy and planning
(31:26) The $100 exercise to get teams to think beyond their scope
(35:17) Have you seen small teams move faster?
(37:20) PSHE framework for small vs. large teams
(41:53) Selfless leadership and the trillion-dollar coach
Get the takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/the-best-framework-for-career-growth-shishir
Where to find Shishir:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shishirmehrotra/
X: https://x.com/shishirmehrotra
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My guest today is Jon Lax, former VP of Design at Meta.
Jon is a 25-year design veteran who most recently led design for Meta’s Reality Labs (e.g., Ray Ban glasses, Quest, and more). Before Meta, Jon ran his own design firm for 12 years. He’s got many hot takes on product development and design that I’m excited to dig into.
Brought to you by:
- Amplitude: Get their north star playbook for free: https://bit.ly/4fPxUmg
Timestamps:
(00:00) Why delight comes last
(01:31) Introducing Jon
(01:56) Why Jon stopped doing vision decks and north stars
(05:49) The right time scale for designers to operate in
(11:13) 3 miracle problems have killed many products
(15:14) Make it useful first, then beautiful
(23:38) MVP vs. minimum lovable product is the wrong framing
(25:37) The single trait that all the best teams at Meta share
(26:29) How to build a shared definition of done
(31:19) The one question I ask to bring clarity to promotions
(36:22) How to climb the ambiguity and autonomy curve
(40:01) Is AI the end of peak design jobs?
Get the takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/ex-meta-vp-reveals-his-top-design-lessons-jon-lax
Where to find Jon:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jon-lax-900b5a293/Blog: https://jonlax.framer.ai/
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My guest today is Sharmeen Chapp, Head of Product for Revenue and Finance Automation at Stripe.
In 2021, Sharmeen was diagnosed with breast cancer after becoming a Senior Director at Meta and a new mom. She shared lessons on leading with empathy through cancer, growing from IC to VP in 6 years, and Stripe’s unique product culture.
Brought to you by:
- Amplitude: Get their North Star playbook for free https://bit.ly/4fPxUmg
Timestamps:
(00:00) Empathy starts with leaving your ego at the door
(01:59) I basically product-managed my breast cancer
(03:22) Silver lining of sharing my journey publicly
(05:54) Balancing work, family, and cancer treatment
(12:20) Why empathy and excellence are not mutually exclusive
(17:34) Operating high and low on vision and execution
(22:05) Transitioning to PM and overcoming doubts
(25:03) Growing from IC to VP in 6 years
(27:56) Why I deprioritized my own product
(36:59) Stripe PM culture of user-first and humility
(41:55) Remember to give yourself grace
Get the takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/leading-with-empathy-through-cancer-sharmeen-chapp
Where to find Sharmeen:
X: https://x.com/luckiesharms
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sharmeenchapp/
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My guest today is Mihika Kapoor, product lead at Figma.
Mihika and team built Figma Slides from just an idea to a featured product at Config this year. She shared with me how anyone can build 0 to 1 products inside large companies - from building internal excitement to getting leadership buy-in to shipping on time. She also shared why she no longer writes any PRDs.
Timestamps:
(00:00) What it really takes to build 0-1
(01:42) How Figma Slides came from Figma and Figjam
(04:23) Convincing other PMs that this was an idea worth pursuing
(06:38) Talking gets nowhere, here's what works instead
(11:04) How designers can get PM buy-in for their ideas
(16:18) Breaking all the rules for product development
(22:29) Getting leadership buy-in on your vision
(30:25) Aligning a 0-1 product with company goals
(32:29) Find your "first follower" to build your 0-1 team
(37:14) The hardest thing about building Figma Slides
(42:30) 4 rules for anyone building new products
(47:23) Be careful about setting goals for 0-1 products
(52:15) Why Mihika doesn't write PRDs
Get the interview takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/anyone-can-build-0-1-products-mihika-kapoor
Where to find Mihika:
X: https://x.com/mihikapoor
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mihikakapoor/
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My guest today is Lee Robinson, VP Product at Vercel.
Lee has built products and great developer experiences for over a decade and has written some of the most clear-sighted content about how to get developers to adopt your product that I’ve ever read.
We chatted about what makes a great developer experience, what resonates with developer marketing, and how to appeal to this no-bullshit customer segment.
Timestamps:
(00:00) A cycle to guarantee developers love your product
(01:15) How developers decide whether to use a new tool
(03:45) 3 pillars of a great developer experience
(08:34) Trust in open vs. closed source AI models
(10:52) Why most developer documentation sucks
(17:02) The future of AI-powered interactive docs
(23:25) Developer marketing tactics that actually work
(27:30) How to balance hype and reality
(30:42) Build with developers to gain their trust
(32:06) How to recover from losing developer trust
(37:01) Mastering the art of writing
(42:08) Talk to them, listen carefully, and actually fix their problems
Get the interview takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/lee-the-ultimate-guide-to-developer-marketing
Where to find Lee:
X: https://x.com/leeerob
Website: https://leerob.io/
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1My guest today is Chris Jones, partner at Silicon Valley Product Group.
Chris and Marty Cagan wrote the best-selling book Empowered based on their 30+ years of experience working with 200+ companies. Their definition of “empowered vs. feature product teams” has created controversy, so I knew I had to chat with them.
Chris and I had a heart-to-heart chat about empowered vs. feature teams, how to avoid becoming a feature factory, and how to take back control of your career.
Timestamps:
(00:00) What empowered really means
(01:13) The difference between empowered and feature teams
(04:58) Why companies stop being customer-focused
(06:12) OKRs, processes, and bureaucracy
(13:47) Be the go-to person to build trust with leaders(18:13) Quarterly metric targets lead to bad trade-offs
(21:40) The trend towards small teams
(23:00) Does empowerment matter in wartime (Airbnb)?
(27:24) 3 types of product operating principles
(30:23) Is Google still empowered?
(33:40) How to avoid product review hell(36:15) The right way to push back on execs
(41:08) Take back control of your career
Where to find Chris:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisjonessvpg/
Get the interview takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/empowered-vs-feature-product-teams-chris-jones
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My guest today is Miqdad Jaffer, ex-head of AI products at Shopify.
Miqdad leads enterprise products at OpenAI and was previously Head of AI Products at Shopify. He also teaches Maven’s #1 AI PM course on building AI products inside companies.
Miqdad and I spoke about:
-- Why traditional product development doesn't work for AI
- How to build product principles early to manage AI's infinite edge-case problem
- The unconventional ways that Shopify "gets shit done" and ships products fast
Timestamps:
(00:00) Why building AI products is different
(02:10) How Shopify's AI efforts got started
(04:48) "Get shit done" product review process
(08:13) Building AI products with customers
(09:03) How to prioritize AI use cases
(11:35) Setting goals for AI products
(16:46) The AI tech stack explained
(18:25) Protecting user data and privacy
(19:49) Prompt engineering and evaluation
(23:25) Is it worth training users to submit better prompts?
(25:01) Managing AI hallucinations
(26:55) Shopify's AI vision
(28:41) Principles for building AI products
(30:43) Shopify's craft and no meeting culture
Where to find Miqdad:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/miqdadjaffer/
AI PM course: https://maven.com/product-faculty/ai-product-management-certification
Get the takeaways: https://creatoreconomy.so/p/how-shopify-built-generative-ai
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