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Church is Messy
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Church is Messy

Author: Rick Henderson and Svea Merry

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Church is messy podcast recorded at Autumn Ridge Church in Rochester, MN
127 Episodes
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During the month of December Rick and Svea turn the microphone around and answer your questions on the podcast. Do you have a questions you'd like them to address? Email your questions to podcast@autumnridge.church.Topics discussed in this episode:00:00 Intro02:15 QUESTION 1: The discussion on not being able to lose one's salvation was new to me and in the end I still didn't understand.03:58 John 3:16-18 It's indispensable to see Jesus as the King, the Authority, the One who is rightly holding us accountable.05:41 The moment of salvation and receiving forgiveness of sin from God (justification) and living with growing into sinning less often and becoming more like Jesus (sanctification) are similar to a marriage. You are married when you say "I do" but you have the daily process of choosing your spouse.08:02 QUESTION 2: What drew us to a non-denominational church such as Autumn Ridge?11:45 Some of the benefits of being a non-denominational church.14:04 Potential drawbacks to being a non-denominational church.16:07 QUESTION 3: How do we address the fraud happening in MN as a church family?17:41 All ethnicities and cultures are batting 1.000 when it comes to crime.21:43 Let's remember that ALL people are made in the image of God and ALL people are flawed.23:46 QUESTION 4: Mary wasn't given a choice was she? Gabriel just tells her, "You will conceive and give birth to a son and you will call him Jesus."26:25 Where and when does God need permission to do something in your life?29:39 Mary's response shows not only was she willing, but she was honored to be chosen.32:20 QUESTION 5: Can you explain the Trinity?34:39 There are a number of verses that talk about the Trinity, but the term "Trinity" never appears in Scripture. God is one being that exists in three persons. "Person" and "Being" are not synonyms. 40:08 QUESTION 5B: How do you know which person of the Trinity to pray to?
During the month of December Rick and Svea turn the microphone around and answer your questions on the podcast. Do you have a questions you'd like them to address? Email your questions to podcast@autumnridge.church.Topics discussed in this episode:00:00 Intro01:55 Send your questions for the podcast to podcast@autumnridge.church03:18 QUESTION 1: What advice or insight would you give on silencing or at least quieting the questions of "Is God real?" or "Did Jesus really die for us?"06:10 An unexpected answer: lean in to those doubts and questions. Jude 22: Be merciful to those who doubt.09:52 It's not my responsibility to convince you. It's my responsibility to share with you what convinced me.11:55 Hold on to profound moments and experiences with Jesus - they can be powerful motivational tools to keep on keeping on.13:04 Resources: Podcasts - Undeceptions with John Dixon; Theology in the Raw with Preston Sprinkle; books on topics like the resurrection by N.T. Wright.14:59 QUESTION 2: How do we reconcile once saved always saved and losing salvation? Individuals use scripture for both approaches.15:33 Those two positions can't be reconciles. They are mutually exclusive. Looking at the whole of Scripture, what Jesus said, and the Epistles point to security.17:50 If we could lose our salvation, we would.18:05 Two passages people look at about losing salvation: Galatians 5 and Hebrews 6.23:24 Passages that convinced Rick about security in Christ: John 10, Romans 8, Ephesians 1.27:44 QUESTIONS 3: Can you comment on spiritual circumcision? Is this a requirement and specifically who does the circumcising of the heart?29:17 Used as a symbol like a wedding ring or baptism. It's a profound symbol of something that has been done.36:48 It is a synergy. We can't circumcise our hearts on our own and God won't circumcise our heart on his own even though he could; he wants a relationship.38:05 QUESTION 4: How do we reconcile that we are all made in the image of God and yet we live outside of God's design?40:39 Good news - we are made in the image of God. Bad news - we've all fallen short. Good news - Jesus stepped into the world to be with us and make it possible to be united with him through his life, death, and resurrection.42:22 Being made in God's image we should expect that people from all walks of life will exhibit things that reflect the goodness of God.48:53 The assumption that Christians "should be" more of all these good things than non-Christians. That assumption implies we're Christians because of our behavior not our Savior. We should see a trajectory of personal growth, but we shouldn't assume that Christians are the "good guys" and the non-Christians aren't. As Jesus followers, we need to be with Jesus, become like Jesus, and do as he did.
On this Love Is The Agenda weekend, Rick and Svea talk about our guest speaker, Dr. Walter Kim, and the message he had on living out the gospel.Topics discussed in this episode:00:00 Intro02:49 CIM is taking the 2025 Thanksgiving week off. During December we're going to answer your questions on ANY topic. Send questions to podcast@autumnridge.church.04:07 Starting with one of Dr. Kim's questions: What am I saved for? What's the purpose of my life?09:03 Live out the gospel in compelling ways.11:58 The demonstration of the gospel makes the proclamation of the gospel compelling.13:18 We don't always have to demonstrate and proclaim the gospel at exactly the same time. It's okay to do one at a time, but it's never okay to do only one of the two.19:07 The message of the gospel. What is the gospel?24:48 Thinking out loud about the gospel.28:06 Living out the gospel: a couple of examples.
Rick and Svea close out the series on Acts of Leadership by looking at a powerful act of leadership: telling your story about your relationship with Jesus. No one knows your story better than you. No one will know your story unless you tell it.Topics discussed in this episode:00:00 Intro02:28 This passage resonated with a lot of people. It helps to take the fear out of evangelism - just tell your story.05:39 Paul's genius in how he told his story: bring light.08:22 Paul begins telling his story by honoring those to whom he is speaking - even though those people were of questionable character. 1) recognize dignity and 2) express respect.16:35 Honoring someone may require a high degree of self-control so you don't speak what first comes to mind about that person. 17:43 Adopt an approach toward people that comes out of who we are becoming in Christ.24:00 No one knows your story better than you. No one will know your story unless you tell it.27:23 What was life like before Jesus? What initially drew me toward him? What has my life been like since Jesus?29:32 We are responsible for what we contribute and we should take that seriously. We're not responsible for the result; God is.33:34 Taking it from an individual level to a corporate level. The why behind some of Autumn Ridge's outreach practices.42:50 Wrapping up the series on Acts of Leadership with this bow: telling your story is a powerful act of leadership that doesn't require the position of being a leader.
Rick and Svea spend much of the episode discussing Paul's warning to the church leaders in Ephesus as found in Acts 20:17-38: watch out for the wolves among you.A warning from Rick about this episode: It may contain meandering conversation with points of lucidity in a forest of discontinuity and convoluted word salads, but it has been fun.Topics discussed in this episode:00:00 Intro03:21 Serving is leading and leadership.06:35 The genius of Scripture: the same passage allowed Rick to pivot the emphasis in response to immediate needs without bending it to fit the new topic. This message's focus: Be on guard - have the back of those whom you lead.10:57 Wolves prowling around as a threat to the flock: Paul's admonition then and still true today.12:02 Three ways to spot a wolf: 1) they try to raise your level of fear; 2) they try to lower your level of empathy; and 3) they try to distract you from being an ambassador for Jesus and his kingdom.12:21 Looking at each wolf tactic: Watch out for those using fear as a manipulator.17:07 Watch out for those downplaying empathy or even calling it a sin. 25:33 Watch out for those trying to distract us from the primacy of Jesus.29:14 How do you overcome the wolves? In every arena of your life, live as though Jesus were living your life: be with Jesus, become more like Jesus, and do as Jesus did. Who we are becoming is more important than what we do.31:52 The big difference between a true representative of Jesus and a wolf: A true representative will say follow me as I follow Jesus. A wolf will try to get you to join their endeavor and impose aspects of Christianity on others so they can get more control.34:31 The way of Jesus is always going to be different than any expression of the world's way.35:17 Playing the movie forward.
This week the Acts of Leadership series takes us to Acts 15. Rick and Svea look at circumcision and the old covenant, the new covenant, and James' declaration in Acts 15:19, “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God."Topics discussed in this episode:00:00 Intro02:41 We will always have to wrestle with issues that would seek to divide us.05:00 Circumcision: the sign of the old covenant.11:41 Baptism: the sign of the new covenant. Comparing circumcision with baptism.13:52 The new covenant is superior to the old covenant. The old covenant started outwardly and hoped it would become inward. The new covenant starts inwardly and expresses itself outwardly.20:25 If salvation is by faith alone, why did James add four "conditions" on the church in Acts 15?24:07 James isn't adding conditions to faith in Jesus, he's showing other practices that, if practiced, will pull their hearts away from Jesus and toward other gods.36:51 The thinking process of looking at Scripture in regard to temporary, cultural application vs permanent.39:21 If Paul, Peter, and James were addressing the American Church what practices might they suggest that would be helpful in following Jesus?
This week Rick and Svea look at Acts 10 and the story of Cornelius.Topics discussed in this episode:00:00 Intro06:11 Three questions about leadership: whom am I looking to for leadership, how am I leading myself, who looks to me for leadership.07:31 Cornelius in Acts 10. He was a complex character, we're all complex characters.10:12 We're never correct to reduce any person to one defining thing; it tends to bring out one of four bad responses. We're all multifaceted.13:08 In this passage we get to see how God saw Cornelius.15:52 A thought experiment.20:12 Good isn't bad; good is good. It's just not good enough to close the gap between us and God.23:16 The gap Cornelius had and his angelic visitors. God's methods are intentionally messy and inefficient.28:14 In this chapter we've seen Cornelius as a leader of people, show self-leadership, and now he looks to Peter for leadership.34:11 We need to trust Jesus enough to deconstruct our self-imposed rules so that he can rule. It's all about heart orientation.
Pastor Caleb Smith joins Rick and Svea to dig into the story of Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch. Topics discussed in this episode:00:00 Intro and Rick's Boundary Waters adventures.03:50 Week three of Acts of Leadership: what jumped out of this week's passage?07:43 Caleb's process in seeing discipleship in this passage.14:16 Who you are is a greater contribution than what you do.17:42 The Quadrants: unconscious incompetence, conscious incompetence, conscious competence, unconscious competence.24:53 Jesus followers should be the most curious people around.31:11 Applying to whom do we look for leadership, self leadership, and others looking to us for leadership in this passage.
Today Rick and Svea talk about the challenges to developing authentic deep community and provide some ideas for developing this community.Topics discussed in this episode:00:00 Intro00:48 This week's focus is on community and the requirement for leadership decisions to shepherd each other.02:15 We live in a culture that is driven by individualism and isolation.05:11 Authentic, biblical Christian community isn't easy; it requires bravery, intentional vulnerability, messiness, awkwardness, and sometimes pain.09:01 A framework for community: intimates, kin, village, tribe.11:53 Church gatherings at Autumn Ridge are a gathering of a tribe. Community can be experienced and enjoyed, but it is not developed in the tribe. It's developed in the up-close relationships.13:06 Challenges to developing deep community.18:37 The fear of rejection.21:23 Ideas for developing community.23:45 How fast can this happen? Is there a microwave setting for developing community?
In today's episode Rick and Svea open discussion on our new series - a survey of the book of Acts: Acts of Leadership.Topics discussed in this episode:00:00 Intro02:22 Exciting news about Autumn Ridge and Practicing the Way.05:18 Acts of Leadership message series: leadership is a destination of discipleship.07:15 "I'm not really a natural leader" or, "I don't really want to be in a position of leadership."08:13 Three questions about leadership.13:33 The disciples question for Jesus and his unexpected answer. He's in the driver's seat; we're not.20:43 The importance of community. We need to be in relationship with people who are not exactly like we are.28:51 What does self-leadership look like when we thought we were following a course of action and expectations but God makes it clear the path is different than we thought?33:33 Recap: The tension of loving God and doing as you please.
In today's episode Rick and Svea have a discussion about loving our enemies and hating our enemies.Topics discussed in this episode:00:00 Intro - A Sunday afternoon gone wrong.04:05 An illustration from Rick's Sunday experience.06:11 Two visions: Love your enemy or hate your enemy.08:23 What does it look like to love your enemy?09:55 Paying a price for loving our enemy is a testing point. Not engaging in hero worship when someone says they forgive their enemy.14:42 The pressure to define "who is my brother" and "who is my enemy" devolves into who is human and who is subhuman and often taints our behaviors toward "others." It's not good for anybody.18:24 Looking to history to examine crimes against humanity or a particular group of people always begins with using dehumanizing language.19:07 Svea describes an incident she had from the previous week.27:09 Jesus gave us a simple (not always easy) handhold: pray for your enemies.
We begin a new season of Church Is Messy on a very serious note: A response to the assassination of Charlie Kirk.Topics discussed in this episode:00:00 Intro - welcome back after Rick's sabbatical.01:46 A renewed sense of identity as a part of sabbatical.08:05 The assassination of Charlie Kirk.10:09 An email we received.12:22 We're a church that values questions - from everybody.14:40 Something Rick would do differently if he could.15:36 Rick's intent in the weekend services.16:40 At least three broad categories of people regarding Charlie Kirk among those who attend Autumn Ridge Church.19:55 Sunday morning is not a time to say what can be said, it's a time to say what must be said. What must be said is we are grieving and we need to turn and look to Jesus.26:04 "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church." -Tertullian30:16 The view that this is a wakeup call for Christians to rise up.31:46 A question that hasn't been asked yet.35:05 We owe it to ourselves to slow down and get really honest with ourselves about our demands, wants, and responses.35:54 It's tragic that empathy has been downplayed, disparaged, and kicked to the curb. Too many Christians see empathy as a negative.37:11 This is a time to engage in empathy. Empathy is necessary for understanding.41:04 Who do I trust? Beware of false prophets.
In the final episode on our series on the mission, vision, and values of Autumn Ridge Church, Rick and Svea discuss values seven and eight: 7) take your next step and 8) trust the process.Topics discussed in this episode:00:00 Intro02:37 Values 7 and 8: 7) Take your next step, and 8) Trust the process.07:28 Direction over speed.08:17 There is a logical progression, but there is no checklist in next steps.10:36 Some logical and some intangible next steps.18:30 Trust the process.20:41 Is the process internal or external?22:49 What does it look like to trust God when we're not seeing results?24:32 How can we discern the difference between being patient and passivity when it comes to spiritual formation?25:47 How are these two values in harmony and in tension with each other?32:25 Each of the values is a faithful summary statement of some aspect of the gospel.
In this continuing series of looking at the mission, vision, and values of Autumn Ridge Church, Rick and Svea turn their attention to values five and six: 5) move toward the messes and 6) make generosity normal.Topics discussed in this episode:00:00 Intro01:48 Our mission, vision, and values (mvv) are guardrails that keep us from straying into unhealthy practices.03:42 Move toward the messes.05:23 How did Jesus model moving toward the messes?08:25 What's a common thread Jesus exhibited to work through the messes he encountered?09:42 How do we follow Jesus in moving toward the messes in a healthy and edifying way?11:00 Moving toward the messes doesn't mean we're the person who always fixes the mess.12:19 Avoiding the ditches.14:57 This value brings out the necessity of authenticity.16:37 Make generosity normal. It's not just about money.21:39 This value reminds us to slow down, see the people around us, and make ourselves approachable.25:01 These two values force us to examine ourselves and see how we're engaging with others.28:19 What would you say to those who don't feel equipped to move toward the messes or feel like they don't have enough (of whatever) to be generous?31:51 These values are an expression of following the way of Jesus.35:18 What will it look like for our church to live out these values?
In this continuing series of looking at the mission, vision, and values of Autumn Ridge Church, Rick and Svea turn their attention to values three and four: 3) Honor guests enthusiastically and 4) belong before you believe.Topics discussed in this episode:00:00 Intro03:20 Coming to church can be difficult. Knowing people are coming in feeling anxious, what do we want them to experience?05:32 Hospitality in the church.07:09 Honor guests enthusiastically: we care more about your experience than our own.10:16 What are some practical ways we try to honor guests enthusiastically?13:54 What does it "cost" us to pursue honoring guests?17:07 Belong before you believe. Probably our most misunderstood value.22:23 Is there an expiration date on how long someone can belong before they believe?24:01 You don't have to change anything about you to be around us.27:16 The dispositions, attitudes and mindsets that help live out this value well.29:19 Simple steps to take.30:41 Answering a different question: The fear of compromising the gospel to be a welcoming church.
In this continuing series of looking at the mission, vision, and values of Autumn Ridge Church, Rick and Svea turn their attention to values one and two: Take truth seriously and give grace relentlessly.Topics discussed in this episode:00:00 Intro02:10 Eight values at Autumn Ridge Church. Why do we have them?05:14 Values one and two: 1) take truth seriously and 2) give grace relentlessly.06:45 We happily place ourselves underneath the authority of Scripture - even if it means we're out-of-step with culture.08:28 Is it possible our understanding of truth could change?11:39 What does it look like for followers of Jesus to follow the truth?13:42 What does "Speak the truth in love" mean?16:00 Truth at the expense of grace and grace at the expense of truth: both are damaging.19:31 Giving grace relentlessly.21:02 What is grace?23:14 How do we want to be experienced?25:13 How do grace and truth intersect with each other?31:03 Two actions step to take truth seriously and give grace relentlessly.
Rick and Svea kick-off a five-part series on the Mission, Vision, and Values of Autumn Ridge Church.Topics discussed in this Episode:0:00 Intro02:47 Why does Autumn Ridge have a mission statement? Knowing why we say "Yes" and "No" to various opportunities.04:02 Most of life's hurts happen when we live in contradiction to our purpose.07:10 Our vision: communicating the kind of church we desire to be.09:15 Why is it important we have a vision statement?12:18 Digging in: Every single word in our MVV has been labored over and is important.12:23 Our Mission - Disciple vs follower of Jesus...16:06 Fully devoted...17:35 Three aspects: authority, identity, activity.20:00 Our Vision - We want to be a church...20:42 Of all cultures...24:15 Where Curious people...25:32 Where Skeptical people...26:43 And where Hurting people...29:30 Love to attend.30:19 Why is it important for our congregation to know and understand our mission and vision?
Rick and Svea discuss the three major goals of the summer's Holy Lit series.Topics Discussed in this Episode:00:00 Intro02:46 Holy Lit - three goals03:05 Goal one: Uncomplicate our relationship with the Bible.09:59 If you have a simplistic understanding of the Bible you're going to have a more complicated relationship with it.12:01 Goal two: Energize our engagement with the Bible.15:33 Goal three: Expand our ability to understand the Bible.16:48 Series thesis: This is a backstory to the story of the Bible.19:36 Why is this important? Aligning with truth.24:46 The Bible is overwhelming, I don't even know where to start.28:11 What's coming up in the Podcast.
Pastor Caleb Smith joins Rick and Svea to close the Loaded Questions series. They discuss success and failure and how society's framework for success is at odds with the Gospel's framework for success.Topics Discussed in this Episode:00:00 Intro00:57 Reflecting on the Loaded Questions series.04:42 What was it like preparing to speak on failure?06:20 Svea to Caleb: Did your definitions of success and failure change or grow as a part preparing for this message?09:46 Embracing the tension of the gospel's framework of success and the inescapable realities of life.17:17 The rich, young ruler: a case study in questioning the framework of success.24:39 What does it look like if everything is stripped away and we're satisfied with only Jesus?30:20 How do we develop into being satisfied with having nothing but Jesus?36:39 Micah 6:8 - act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God.
Rick and Svea have a robust conversation about doubt. They talk about the connection with doubt, faith, and belief. Are there unsafe questions to ask? They also discuss the role of community in removing doubt.Resources:A. J. Swoboda's book, After DoubtTopics Discussed in this Episode:00:00 Intro02:31 Summary of what Svea learned about herself, doubt, and Jesus in preparing for this message.09:58 1 Corinthians 4: 20 - The kingdom of God isn't a matter of talk but of power.12:38 What is doubt?18:00 What do we mean when we talk about faith or belief?23:40 Is it possible to experience doubt because we're putting expectations on Jesus he never promised?29:53 How do I know if a question is a safe question to ask? There are no unsafe questions, there are unsafe people.33:14 Recurring question after the services: how do I know I am saved? How can I have confidence in my salvation?40:37 You HAVE to invite other people in. Don't struggle by yourself.45:03 For those who struggle with intellectual doubts.
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Comments (1)

Christina Voshart

I really enjoyed this. Thank you.

Feb 22nd
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