Commercial Real Estate Investing with Don and Eden

  On today’s episode, our guest Carlos Gutierrez is based out of South Carolina. He started flipping homes and eventually made his move to commercial real estate. He started with a 20 unit deal and since then has doubled his success with recent deals. He has an avid passion for motorcycles and he owned a shop Deltona, FL.    In today’s episode, Carlos discusses how he entered the real estate game, details on his first house flips, how he found his first 20 unit deal and his future plans. He also shares with us, his goal with multifamily properties and how he found his formula to success.    Episode Highlights: Details on His 1st Deal Recent Deals on Multifamily Properties What Book Motivated to Enter the Multifamily Sector His Future Plans   Connect with Carlos: Email: cg4properties@gmail.com  Facebook: @CG4propertiesllc Office #: 843-934-4250 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hey guys, and welcome back. Today I am interviewing Carlos Gutierrez. I think Carlos and I share a similar path as well as so many other real estate investors. We both started in flipping homes and ended up deciding we want to scale up and start doing something bigger, hence getting involved in commercial real estate. So, I think this is the standard evolutionary process and progress of the typical real estate investor. And I'm sure many of you guys are either in this position or have been in this position in the past, which is why I think this episode is super important. So have fun, and let's get started.   Lady: Welcome to the commercial real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to off-market strategies.   Don: Hey, Carlos, it's nice to have you here. How are you doing today?   Carlos: Good. How are you guys doing?   Don: I'm doing just fine. I just got back from North Carolina looking at a property that is close to South Carolina, obviously, which is where you're based off. How are things in South Carolina? I can tell you that when I went to Charlotte right now when I was on the flight, there were a few tornadoes that just hit the city. So, when I landed in Charlotte, everything was like a mess.    Carlos: I've lived here in Charleston probably for almost five years. We've had experiences with some close tornadoes in the area. When I mean close, I mean, like two or three miles down the road.    Don: Wow.    Carlos: Yeah, so we had one real bad one, think that September of 18. Took the roof off of the DMV building, a place that sells trailers and cars, flip trailers upside down. It was destroyed like Main Street, which is Machs Corner, which is five to 10 minutes up the street from where I live. I've lived through a lot of hurricanes because I'm originally from Puerto Rico and then grew up in Florida, so hurricanes don't bother me as much and you have time to prepare. And I tell you what, man, those tornadoes are scary. I was telling my wife the other day I was going to build one of those doomsday bunkers underneath our house. You literally have no time. And by the time they said there's a tornado on top of that you got less than a couple of minutes.   Don: Yeah, to get in right? So, I know you flip a lot of homes in South Carolina. Did you ever have any situation where you had one of your homes get impacts from any type of bad weather whatsoever?   Carlos: I've been fortunate enough to have any disasters hit any of our houses or any of our commercial property. We've been through hurricanes, we've been through tornadoes, we've been through some flooding and I haven't had anything major other than maybe a couple of our units getting flooded.   Don: That's a good thing. I know you flipped a lot of homes. So, you've done like over 20 flips, right?   Carlos: Yeah, yeah.   Don: So how about you tell us a little bit about that and how it started. How did you get into real estate and what was your first deal and how did they go?   Carlos: I lived in Florida for about 20 years and before my real estate career, I had a big passion for motorcycles, and I own a small motorcycle shop in Florida in a place called Deltona, Florida. So, it was a really good solid mom and pop shop business. We did great for about three to four years. And then, of course, the '08 recession happened. '09, I started seeing the wave of revenue was split in half the landlord of that we were in a retail shop and the landlord was, there are people closing up left and right. So, going through that recession, I learned that I was in the 'want' business and not the 'need' business, which taught us a real valuable lesson. You might want the motorcycle, you might want a jet ski or a boat but when it comes time to a bad recession or anything like that, you usually have to let go of all of it. I wasn't in the real estate business then but I did see it. I saw people that were living in $75,000 houses, which is kind of normal in that area, and selling it and buying a $200,000 still having the same job. I was just like this doesn't make sense.    Sure enough, the recession hit '08 '09 and those same houses that were selling for $200,000 are now selling back to $75,000 and even less in some instances. So, I met my wife in Florida and we moved to Northern Virginia. She's from Northern Virginia. She wanted it to raise kids there. The economy was really bad in Florida so we moved up to the Northern Virginia/ DC area. I saw the real estate market being dilapidated in Florida. I was like when I get to Northern Virginia, I'm just going to start looking. I started looking with some realtors. They walked me away from a lot of houses, probably three or four houses that I could have made some good money, so I decided to get my real estate license. I said, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this myself, having that small mentality at that time, but I saw opportunity out there. I bought a HUD home for $68,000, put about 24 to 25 grand into it because I was doing a little bit of the work myself, which I don't recommend, but since it was my first I had more time than money, right?    Don: And you wanted to learn.    Carlos: And I wanted to learn. Yeah. And I knew a little bit about construction because I had done some construction before.   Don't: You invested $92,000 in the property, right?   Carlos: Correct. Yeah, I was able to actually talk to a broker that was like a hard money lender at the time. So, she did the loan and we worked everything out, was $92,000 into the property maybe a little bit more with some holding costs. And it took us about a month and a half to do all the renovations. Three days before Christmas, I put her on the market. And I had two or three offers within a couple of days. I ended up selling it for $142,000.   Don: $142,000. So, you cleared about $30,000 closing costs. Yeah, so that's a decent return. You can't get that done easily today.   Carlos: No. Back then, if I would have known what I had in my hand, I could throw a dart and hit a good deal back then. They were throwing houses. I didn't have enough money to buy them all.   Don: Yeah, didn't we all I mean, we're talking about a time where you could pick up a house for literally cents on the dollar. And I was thinking that if I lived this era all over again, I would have never sold anything. My biggest regret is selling real estate. Everything that I ever did in real estate that's one thing that I'm truly sorry about, the one mistake is I sold real estate. I should have never done that, I should always keep it. I don't believe in selling it. I started as a wholesaler. And so, at these times, we were making good money.    And now in 2017 and 2016 people started hearing there's a lot of money in wholesale. And, and so they got into it. And there's also podcasts and audible and so people can get information. Very easy way. So, then it got saturated. I know what a flip is. So, you're averaging between $40 and, and $50,000 if you're doing well. So, you're making $200,000 a year, but that's the point where you realize that essentially you have a job and that's not going to get you anywhere. So then move up the ladder and start investing in some bigger things. That's when things change and you move up to commercial real estate, right?   Carlos: Correct. Yeah. So, my whole mentality from the beginning is kind of the same thing that you were just talking about is holding for the long term. But I wanted to flip houses to get a big nest egg to start putting it down on bigger properties and holding them for longer. I didn't want to hold single families for a long time, but I wanted to buy and hold multifamily. So that was the goal from the beginning. I read a book, a real good book back in probably '09. Dave Lindell's 'Multifamily Million.'    Don: I went to a seminar.    Carlos: Yeah, me too. He's from the New Jersey, Philadelphia kind of area. So, I went to one of his three-day boot camps up in Maryland.   Don: I went to his three-day boot camp in Tampa. Yeah, well, let's get back to the topic. So, you read Dave Lindell's book 2009, multi-family millions and then that makes an impact and you decide to start investing in multifamily right?   Carlos: Correct. Like I said, I've always wanted to invest in multifamily. I was never one of raising money from other investors. Obviously, I learned later that that's probably the best and easiest way to do it. But starting from the beginning, that's kind of how I was. So, there was a transition around our lives back then in '15, where we wanted to move out of DC. Because my wife was from DC as from Florida, I was tired of the snow, she didn’t want to be in Florida. So, I said, Let's pick somewhere in the middle.  So, we ended up in a little town called Summerville, South Carolina, which is a market of Charles place that's growing leaps and bounds. While we were here visiting, I came across a building that was empty. So, I wrote it down on my phon

DE 37: Good Research = Smart Investing with Scott Price   Today’s guest has sharpened his skill sets through key roles in various companies as a team manager, program manager, and marketing manager- Scott Price. In 2005, he purchased his first apartment complex of 29 units. He used the full‐time broker status to immerse himself in real‐world real estate, investing and applied education. After being approached by some people, Scott began to provide professional coaching for aspiring real estate investors.   In this episode, Scott shares with us the details of his first deal- what he learned and what he’d do differently, how he managed a full-time W2 job & real estate investing on the weekends, how he became financially free and his current deals.    Episode Highlights: Real Estate Beginnings Scott’s Retirement Plan Advantages of Real Estate A Memorable Deal 1:1 Coaching   Connect with Scott: Website: bonvolo.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  TRANSCRIPTION  Intro: Hey guys, welcome to the show. Today, I'm very excited to host Scott Price. Scott is a real estate investor. He's also a hard money lender. He's an active investor. He's a passive investor. And he's also a coach. Now, if you're asking yourself, how is it possible that you can do all these things, then I guess it's just a type of business that real estate is. It's just being diverse, being able to think long term. I think what I like about Scott is his long term vision. And that is a key feature that you got to have. It's something in your mindset, you got to understand that real estate is a long play. So, you got to be patient, and you got to keep working, you gotta keep grinding, and you have your way of doing this. So, Scott's way of doing this is working a W2 job as he's investing in real estate. That's a safe way and that's a very nice way to do things. So yeah, I think Scott has a lot of value to give. So, without further ado, let's get started.   Lady: Welcome to the commercial real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to off-market strategies.   Don: Hey, Scott, welcome to the show.   Scott: Hey, Don, thanks. I'm looking forward to being here and talking to you.   Don: Yes, I'm also looking forward to having you here because I know this interview was rescheduled so many times just out of coincidence, and I really wanted to have you on the show. I think what you're doing is truly phenomenal. And I know you've been listening to the show also, as well. So, you've been there on the side of the audience and listener and also now as somebody who's being interviewed, so I'm very happy to have you here. And yeah, let's get started. Tell us a little bit about your career, your real estate career and how you got started in real estate.   Scott: Sure. I would say it first started many years ago, was looking at what am I going to do with my life and how am I going to become independent in terms of financial lifestyle and not dependent upon the winds of a company. And even going back to before college, I was thinking those kinds of things, certainly did during college as well and I kind of started on the usual approach of most people who have got a good job, go to a good school and things like that. But from all the research that I did, the thing that kept coming up over and over again was that people who maybe we're not household names, but they were people who developed a combination of recurring income as well as net worth. It kept coming back to real estate that some people would win the lottery by great IPO or their stock or something like that but it tended to be a smaller percentage, and it was a real roll of the dice as to whether or not you happen to be in the right company or not, or things like that.    I didn't want my life to be a chance, I wanted to be something that I could control and expand on. And to me real estate was that thing after looking at a lot of different options because it is doable, it's something you have to work out but at the same time, if you are diligent about it, get educated and don't rely on excuses but take action, it is something that can get you there both in terms of recurring income and net worth. What I did was I worked a regular W2 job primarily in high tech and usually in program management and team management positions. And at the same time, in the evenings and weekends, I was working on real estate. For one time back in 2005, I was a full-time real estate broker, but I just did that for a few years and was just to get into real estate investing to immerse myself. I still have my license right now, but I don't represent clients. I currently have it purely for investing purposes.   Don: So, you started back in 2005 right, and then you quit for a few years. I guess you quit because of the crisis?   Scott: I'm giving an approximate from 2003 to 2007. I was a full-time broker and I primarily got out of it because I was doing some commercial, which interested me, but I was doing mostly residential. And frankly, I got kind of tired of all the tire kickers. It's such a numbers game kind of job, some people love it. And that's all great. But I want to get paid for my efforts and for the clients I had, who were good to work with. But the people who would waste my time driving around for six months and then decided not to buy it got a little old.   Don: Yeah.    Scott: So, I decided to go back to W2 actually to work for good companies, good jobs and make a good income with that and not have to worry about all that kind of stuff. But at the same time on the side, again, in the evenings and weekends, I was actively working on my real estate investing. And my general approach was, all of my expenses for me and my family were taken care of by my job, as well as the benefits that I got and the ability to say It's a lot easier, especially for smaller loans to get a loan, if you have a W2 then if you don't if you're self-employed, things like that. So, I use that all to my advantage. I was very strategic and intentional about that. And by doing that, then all of my income, as well as profits from building up equity, doing a cash-out refinance, things like that, as I went along, I could directly roll that back into more real estate.    Again, it was part of a larger plan of not going to work W2 forever, didn't want to do that. But I was using the W2 job as a way to help me expand my real estate portfolio even more. And everything that I own right now is I own myself or myself and the bank, as they say, if I've got a loan on it, but had a need for co-investors, although I have worked with debt investors, and so that allowed me to build up a portfolio. I stayed with it for quite a long time until a couple of years ago. And then I got well past where I needed to be, but I wanted to be again very conservative. And then I had both income and net worth enough to just say, Okay, I'm going full time. So, I did that a couple of years ago.   Don: Okay, so yeah, that's very interesting. So, you decided to go full time two years ago, right or a couple of years ago, excuse me for asking it so bluntly, but how old are you?    Scott: I am 52.   Don: 52. So most people would retire when they are 64. And what I like about what you're doing, is the fact that you saw real estate as a long term investment for your life, for the way that you vision your life, right? So, you wanted to take all the money that you make from your W2, your good paying job, I know you were doing a high tech and you did team management for big companies. And so, you got paid well, I assume. And then you got that money and you paid the bill with that money, but the equity that you generated to real estate investing that you just rolled on, and that's how you got bigger and bigger and bigger.    And by the age of 52, you are financially free, which is a lot sooner than most people, I mean, you went down the road of the safer option, because I see a lot of people that are doing this, that they have a good-paying job but they know that they don't want to do this forever, and they want to retire earlier than most people. And so, they take the money and they live with it. And the money they make in real estate, they don't take anything out, you just push it back into the business, whereas a real estate investor, you have to also take money outside of your business so that you could live and pay your bills. Right?   Scott: Absolutely. And, of course, actually did two years ago, so that was at 50. And then on top of that, I could have easily done it earlier. Just to be clear. I mean, I've been building enough that easily five years earlier, and that if I wanted to, I could have done that 45 or probably earlier. So, it was just a matter of saying well, I want to be even more comfortable. In other words, I want to have a little bit more properties, I want to have a little more income coming in and things like that. And then finally got to the point where I felt comfortable enough with it.   Don: There's another thing that I want to talk about from something that you mentioned at the beginning. You said that you noticed that it all leads up to the real estate. It doesn't matter who you are, what you do. At the end of the day, the majority of them are in real estate. And the question is, why is it so? So I had a guest on the show, that guests were making a lot of money from his business, he noticed that his father was a real estate investor, but he did not want to be anything like his father, because his father was not doing it right, didn't see the way this business could be passive.    So, it was a lot of work for him. And then he said, I would never be like my father. And then he made a lot of money in a different business. But he found out that he's paying so much in taxes, and he's not financially free regarding the fact that he's successful. So, he ended u

Joining us today is Brie Schmidt, a Chicago based real estate investor. She began her career in corporate sales while always holding her real estate license current. In 2011, she decided to leave the corporate world to become a full-time real estate investor. Since then, she has bought several properties in the Windy City and Milwaukee. In 2014, she started a brokerage company and in 2017 she started a conference business. Brie makes use of her extensive knowledge of constructing and managing a portfolio to teach clients about all aspects of buying and holding investments. In this episode, she talks about her career as an investor, how she started and how she got to where she is today. Brie discusses how and why she decided to focus on the Chicago & Milwaukee markets, criteria she looks for when deciding on a property and her plans for the future.  Episode Highlights: Brie’s Start as a Real Estate Investor Cap Rate Criteria for Properties Work-Life Balance Her Future Plans Connect with Brie: Website: Second City Real Estate  Social Media: BiggerPockets or LinkedIn Join Brie @ the Midwest Real Estate Networking Summit - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  - TRANSCRIPTION    Intro: Hey guys, today Don with interview Brie Schmidt. Brie is the first female investor on our show, so we are very excited to have her here. We really hope this episode will inspire other female investors to jump right in the arena of real estate investing. After listening to the interview, I have learned from Brie that this type of profession actually enables a future mom to enjoy both worlds have a very successful career and the ability to take as much time needed for recovery and raising your newly born child. Don and Brie will also discuss the best strategy of choosing a market which is going there and seeing it firsthand. I hope you guys will enjoy this show.   Lady: Welcome to the commercial real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to off-market strategies.   Don: Hey Brie, welcome to the show.   Brie: Thank you for having me.   Don: Yes, of course. I'm very excited to have you as you know, you are the first female investor on the show. I've been trying to get a female investor for quite a while. And I know we've wanted to do this interview for a long time.   Brie: Yeah, I just had a baby. So, scheduling has been a little bit difficult for me.   Don: I could only imagine how difficult it would be to be a real estate investor and also being pregnant and taking care of babies. That must be requiring a lot of toll from you, right?   Brie: You learn to prioritize your time, right, and what's important and it's been something that I've been considering a personal mission of mine for a few years. When I started this business, I quit my corporate job back in 2014. So, I started real estate investing in 2011. I bought another property in 2012. I bought another property in 2013. And then I decided to quit my job and do this full time. 2014, I bought another 10 properties, and then in 2015, I bought another 12 and then bought a couple more in 2016. So, at the time when I quit my job, I used to work in corporate advertising sales. I'm like this is going to be great like I'm going from 50 hours a week and traveling all over the country. Now I'm going to be chill and I work from home and I'm self-employed. And for the first few years, I was working more hours than I was when I had a W2 job.    It wasn't until about 2017 that I was really like, wow, like I have started a couple of other businesses, I'm the Managing Broker of Second City real estate, which is an investment, boutique investment firm for agents. I also started a website business and it was like, well, what was the point of me leaving my solid W2 jobs to get 'financial freedom' if I'm working from the moment I get up to the moment I go to bed and weekends. So, when I knew that we were going to start planning for a family I made it a really big objective of mine to kind of reevaluate my position in the business and reevaluate what I was doing and spending my time on and work to shift it. So, I'm very happy to report that even before we got pregnant, I was down to about 30 hours a week, and I'm able to take a nine-month maternity leave, where I'm pretty much only working 10 to 15 hours a week currently.   Don: Nice, yeah. So, you get a lot of flexibility. And that's the advantage of being self-employed. And especially in the type of business that we are in, which during the years generates passive income for us. So, it enables us to really take a break when we need to take a break with anything that we go through in life. So yeah, I'm sure that that's been terrific for you and your family. And speaking of which, I want to ask you about the dynamics. So, you're doing your own thing as a real estate investor and your husband, what does he do? Does he spend more time with the kids or does he have a W2? Or how does it look like?   Brie: Luckily, we're both off work still. So, we did not get an easy child. She turned four months yesterday. I'm back to work maybe 10-15 hours a week, and I don't plan on going back for another probably four or five months. He's self-employed as well. So, he's taking off work as well. And I don't see him going back in the near future. When people tell you that raising a child is hard like I don't think I fully grasp that concept. But I mean, it takes both of us all day long, tag-teaming things to have your own sanity. Because we both need our own personal time. So that's how we work at currently. But we'll see when she gets older, hopefully, fingers out of this fussy phase.   Don: Yeah. Beautiful. So that's very exciting to hear that you guys are doing it right. So, tell us about your first deal. You said 2011. So how did you basically come up with the idea of quitting your job and start investing in real estate? And also, what were the difficulties back in a day for you when you were just trying to get into that market?   Brie: Well, in the beginning, I really had no intention of being a real estate investor. So, I've been licensed as a real estate agent for 15 years. I spent the first six months in the business absolutely hated it, quit and went into the corporate world. So, I always maintained my license, though, as a backup. That was kind of my plan. I always had a passion for real estate, but I started when I was 21, was really difficult to get people to trust your opinion and rely on you for advice when you're a 21 year old. Like, why would they listen to you when buying a house. So, it wasn't until let's see, I was 28 when I bought my first property.    We bought a three-flat in Chicago. And really the intentions weren't to be real estate investors, it was mainly purely out of convenience that the Chicago market is quite unique to understand that. So, Chicago is what we, I would consider to be a dense urban environment. There's almost 300,000 2-4 unit properties and just the city of Chicago. So, in a lot of the Northside neighborhoods where I was living, and where I've worked, some of them are between 30% and 60% of the housing stock is two to four units. So, it's very common, if you look at any block of neighborhoods, over half the house is pretty much our two to four-unit properties. But at the time, we had a really low housing stock of single-family houses. So, while my husband and I wanted to buy a single-family house because the housing stock was so low, they only represent about at the time, 15% to 20% of the housing stock.    The prices were very high, and it was very, very competitive. So, we thought to ourselves, yes, we would want a single-family house. They're about 3000 square feet here, but we're not even married yet, we don't have planning kids for a few years, we don't need a 3000 square foot house. So, let's buy this three-unit and then eventually, when we need more space, we can just deconvert the staircase and then make two units and the one and then keep renting out the other unit. And then eventually when we need more space, we can just deconvert the staircase again and now we've got a single-family house that we've grown into as time needed. So that was the original plan. There was really no plan to keep buying any more units either.    So, we did, because we were owner-occupied, we did our three and a half percent down FHA property. I had no idea what I was doing. Like I just looked at it as okay, my mortgage is 2200 and it rents for 2250. like boom, I'm profitable, right? Like, that was all I really how looked at it. I didn't know anything about vacancy repairs, cap-like nothing. We bought it vacant, we got it rented out right away and things were fine and dandy. And this was like great, we live for free now we can start saving for we were planning our wedding so, we were saving for this grand wedding. A few months after we bought the property, my father got sick. He was 60 years old, he was diagnosed with non-small cell lung cancer, which is a very aggressive form of cancer and went through 10 rounds of radiation, 13 rounds of chemo and in nine months and passed away.    Don: I'm sorry to hear that.   Brie: It was lightning quick, right? And that was with treatment. But the real kicker was he died one day before he was both to retire. So, he died before his 61st birthday. That one part really stuck with me. Like, I've watched my dad worked his ass off to provide for his family and he had been offered early retirement before and he always like, oh, well, after your brother graduates college or after you get married or after this, then I'll then I'm going to go do all these things, I'm going to go here and I'm going to go do that. And for him to get so sick so quickly, and I'll happen so fast. So, it really messed with me. It took me a while, maybe like six months of really thinking about it. But I sat down with my husband at

In today’s episode, our guest Andrew Cushman was a chemical engineer for more than seven years. In 2007, he and his wife decided to follow their entrepreneurial spirit and entered the world of real estate. Their journey began in flipping single-family homes, in which he completed 23 transactions- purchase, rehab & sell. A few years later, he made the transition into the acquisition and repositioning of multifamily properties. Today, he continues his success in the nation’s SE market.  Andrew discusses how he went through the recession of 2008, his strategy for buying single families and multi-family properties, why he chose the Southeast market. Andrew also shares the pricing strategy he used as well as how he decided to get into the mobile home park asset. Episode Highlights: Learning the Business & Becoming an Entrepreneur 2 Categories within Mobile Home Parks Bad Market or Bad Strategy? His insight on the Next Recession  Connect with Andrew: Website:  Vantage Point Acquisitions   - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TRANSCRIPTION   Intro: Hey guys, today I am interviewing Andrew Cushman. And I'm in a very good mood for various reasons. Number one is because I'm very happy to interview such an amazing individual. Andrew is really a professional and I had the chance to talk to him a little bit before the show and kind of understand how he thinks. It really brings me to the point of understanding again and again, that it's all about the mindset, it's about faith or fear. If you're afraid, then you're going to be paralyzed, and you'll never succeed in accomplishing your goals. Cause with no risk, there's no reward, it's as simple as that. You'll also hear during the interview, how Andrew is a thinker and he goes against the herd, which is something I personally believe in.    I think it's always important and smart to go against the herd and analyze your own life and environment with total faith in yourself and your abilities. I think really, Andrew is that kind of person, which is why I enjoyed the conversation with him so much. The second reason why I'm in a good mood is that me and Eden are getting close to this mobile home park deal that has 70 units. I had a great time underwriting the deal and learning more about the specific market, where it's located. I guess I'm grateful. I'm just truly grateful for doing what I love, really being able to do something that is big and invest in real estate.    Sometimes I think about it, and I can't believe it, that I'm doing these things. And I really want to help others achieve the same goals and change their lives. So, I guess this is an opportunity for me to say that I'm grateful for you guys as well as our listeners, and I hope you are learning what you need here. And that in the future, when you are successful in real estate or in a future deal, then you think about us and the stuff you learned here. I think that's about it. Without further ado, let's get started. Lady: Welcome to the commercial real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to off-market strategies.   Don: Hey Andrew, welcome to the show.   Andrew: Hey, how are you doing? Glad to be here.    Don: I'm doing just fine. Actually, we just had a conversation before the episode started. And I got to say, I had a lot of fun talking to you about what you do and your outlook. And also, I found out that we have a lot in common, right?    Andrew: Yep.    Don: Yeah. But before we get into that, how about you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into real estate, to begin with?   Andrew: Yeah, I took the standard path into real estate and went and got a chemical engineering degree. But I always knew that was just a placeholder. It was just something that I could earn a decent income. So, I figured out what I would really want to do because I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I worked as an engineer for seven and a half years, married a wonderful woman who had the same ideas I had about trying to be an entrepreneur. And so, we tried a variety of things. And they were fun and minorly successful, but they weren't something that could really accomplish her financial goals. And then, I think in 2007, we found, we discovered home flipping and we started doing that here in Southern California. We did our first one and then I said, "You know what, this is our best shot." So, went to quit my job. She did the same thing two years later.   Don: That's in 2007. So that's right before the crisis.   Andrew: We're at one of the epicenters of it Southern California, there were condo complexes here that dropped 70% in value. It was a great time to get into real estate because everyone was terrified. We had no competition. We'd go buy stuff at 50 cents on the dollar, fix it up and sell it at 80 cents on the dollar. So, whoever's buying it was getting the best deal around. And so even though the whole thing was collapsing, we were still making thick margins.   Don: Wait, wait, wait, let me figure this out. So, you were buying at 50 cents on the dollar 30 cents on the dollar you said in some cases, and you were selling it for 80 cents? How come? I mean, I know nobody was buying anything back in 2008.    Andrew: There's no such thing as a bad market only a bad strategy, right? And single-family houses, there are always some people who have to move for some reason. Their job gets relocated, family changes, whatever right? So, what we would do is let's say a house is worth 400. We'd say we buy it for 300 or 325. We've renovated for 25,000-50,000 whatever required but instead of listing it for 400, we list it for like 375. So that we were the cheapest and nicest house on the block. So whatever rare buyer was out there, they'd always come pick our house. It never took us even in the worst of the crash, it never took us more than 30 days to sell a house once we listed it.   Don: That is just a terrific thing. And you know what, I'm interviewing a lot of investors and entrepreneurs here in the show, I haven't yet found somebody that did that kind of strategy back in 2008. And that's very interesting. And now that I'm thinking about it, it really makes sense to me because I spoke to you a little bit before the show. And I also see how you think right now as an entrepreneur, and I can see the similarity in how you were thinking back then, right?    Andrew: We listed with a local realtor who was really really good. And I remember walking and deal with his office and another realtor sitting at a desk. He literally looked at us and said, "You're flipping a house, are you crazy?" And I was like, everyone else is creating, this is like the biggest opportunity we've seen in forever. So, we did that for about four years and then after three-four years, everyone else started to figure it out. And then also there wasn't that much equity left, it was still a good business, but it wasn't nearly as good. And we kind of said, well, what's the next big thing?    Now all these people losing their house, they can't buy another one for 7-10 years so they got to live somewhere. And the people who still could buy a house, they're scared of it. They don't want to buy a house. So, they still got to live somewhere. We're in a big recession. So that means we're eventually going to be coming into an expansion. So, if we add those three things together, apartments are probably going to do really well sometime soon. And so, we went and found a mentor, a guy who had done 800 units, we hired him to teach us the business.   Don: How much you paid him?    Andrew: I don't remember it wasn't cheap, but it was worth it.   Don: I love it that you had like an itch of doing something bigger. I feel the same thing as an investor. Like no matter what I accomplished in real estate, there's always room to grow as an investor, there's always something bigger you can do. And that's just amazing because you were doing single families, you're doing great back in the recession. So, you were making money when everybody else was losing money, right? And then you're starting to think about how I can make even more money? So how many single families have you flipped up until you made that decision to move up the ladder of commercial real estate?    Andrew: We were being very careful to only buy deep margin deals so we didn't do a ton. I think when we switched to multifamily, I think we had done like 25 flips in those couple of years. Nowadays, you hear guys are like does 70 a month right? But it's also much, much, much smaller margin. So, we did that full time for four years. And then our first apartment complex was mostly vacant c minus property on the other side of the country out in Macon, Georgia. That was 92 units. We syndicated that which course means we pulled investors money.   Don: What year was it?    Andrew: That was 2011.   Don: So back in 2011, you're signed to thinking to get into multifamily and commercial real estate and you're looking at Georgia when you're living in Southern California. So basically four and a half hours flight.    Andrew: Yep.    Don: So why did you choose Georgia- Atlanta?   Andrew: Idaho and Utah are getting overrun from people fleeing California. And then in the southeast, it's not just baby boomers because like Atlanta, for example, they're becoming a tech hub. They're also becoming an entertainment hub. Atlanta did or Georgia did more dollar business in the state of Georgia than it did in Hollywood last year.    Don: No kidding.    Andrew: Yeah. Well, for example, Stranger Things filmed in Georgia and a lot of the Marvel movies filmed in Georgia. There are tons of these huge sprawling film studios. Basically, what it boils down to is, is there are tons of people and jobs moving to the southeast. And to me, that's Florida, Georgia, and the Carolinas. And those are the two things that drive long term apart

Kevin Amolsch, based in Denver, Colorado, is a very passionate real estate investor. He served 4 years in the US Army right out of high school and worked as a mortgage bond analyst for several large Wall Street firms. In 2008, he started his own financial institute, ‘Pine Financial Group’ which is a nationally known hard money lending company. Kevin is the author of The 45 Day Investor and is recognized as an expert in real estate finance.    In today’s episode, Kevin talks about his start as a real estate investor, raising funds & hard money loans and his 13 unit deal on an assembled lot. He discusses his plans for the future and why keeping your focus is essential.    Episode Highlights: Kevin’s Portfolio Details Process of Assembling Lots His Business Ethics Future Plans for Pine Financial Group   Connect with Kevin: Website: pinefinancialgroup.com YouTube: Pine Financial Group Channel  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - TRANSCRIPTION   Intro: Hey guys! Today Don will interview Kevin Amolsch. Kevin is a single-family investor who is based out of Colorado and also does hard money lending. Nowadays, Kevin is in the midst of a 12 townhouse development. What I find interesting is how diversified Kevin is and the commonalities we share. Me and Don also started at single families, moved up to commercial and we are currently developing a 30 unit multifamily in Hollywood, Florida. One of the most interesting things we have learned from Kevin is the process of assembling two lots and approving it with the city. I hope you guys will find the interview interesting and enjoy the episode.   Lady: Welcome to the commercial real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to off-market strategies.   Don: Hey, Kevin, welcome to the show.   Kevin: Hey, Don, thank you so much for having me.   Don: Yes, you're welcome. I know you're a single-family investor and a multifamily investor and you also focus on raising funds and then doing some hard money loans and that's the type of income that you generate. So that you do a lot of things and for that reason, you're on the show, because I bet my audience and our listeners have a lot to learn from you. So, the first thing that I would like to ask you is that the first time that you start to look into real estate.   Kevin: Right out of high school, I got into the Army and in the Army what you find is that you don't make a lot of money but you don't spend it either. So, I was growing a little bank account, I was trying to figure out what to do with it. So, I started reading books and one of the ones that I read it most of your listeners probably know is 'Rich Dad, Poor Dad.'   Don: Yeah, the famous purple book. Okay, guys, if you haven't read it, then please do yourself a favor and get on with it.   Kevin: Yeah, I mean, that's got to be a staple. I don't know if I know any successful real estate investor that has not read that book. Kiyosaki favors real estate. So, I was attracted to it and I started reading more and more and more and I ended up buying my first house. I was just turning 21 at the time. I got out of the Army, moved into the house, moved into some roommates to pay my mortgage for me. And then two years later, I moved out of it and kept it as a rental. I was cash flowing 300 or 400 bucks a month. I saw the value going up. And I knew that real estate is what was going to make me rich. So, I started focusing on it, and I turned it into a career as I was working my way through college.   Don: Amazing. So, what did you study in college?   Kevin: Yeah, I got a degree in finance, which does help. You don't necessarily need a degree to be successful in this business.   Don: Definitely. I always say that on the show that I never went to college. And I don't think in today's world, it's a necessity. I think it's something that you want to do if you want to become a professional if you want to become a lawyer or a doctor, and I think it's definitely for you. If you want to become a successful real estate investor, I don't think it's going to hurt you but I don't think it's something that you need. Because information and gathering knowledge is so easy today with podcasts and books and everything. You did go to college and you studied financials and you became the president of a company that does financial some hard money loans. I'm sure that must have helped you.   Kevin: Oh absolutely. But what you learn in college is more like you said, Don, it's more about the corporations and corporate finance. And small businesses are all very different. I mainly went to college because I was getting it paid for and I had the GI Bill paying me every month to go. So now I need a lot of sense for me. I was using student loans to buy houses at the time, it was a good fit for me. I'm not discouraging people from going. Don't get me wrong. I do agree with you, it is a positive thing, but you don't necessarily need it.   Don: A lot of people go to college and I see that from my home country. I'm from Israel. When you live in Israel, you go to the Army, it's mandatory. So, for us, we don't have a choice. So, we got to go for three years and then women go too, they go for two years. So, by the time we get out of the Army, we're already 21 so some of us you know, after the experiences we've had, we want to go and travel, get to see the world a little bit. And then by the time we get back, we're 22, women 21. So, a lot of people are very stressed. As a reality check, and they're starting their lives, but they're 21. So, they feel that they have to go and learn something so that they can have a degree so that they can feel safe about themselves and good about themselves. I know here in the United States kind of different because you're fresh out of high school, you can go to college, you're doing that when you're 18. So, then you finished by the time in 21-22, and then you have a lot of time to do things with the things you've learned. So, I know it's different. Maybe it's not my place to talk about this. But I think, still, wasting time or investing time incorrectly is a very big problem. And I think if you're investing it in something that you don't know what you'd want to be dealing with in the future could be more of a liability than an asset, even if you finished by the time of 21. Don't you agree?   Kevin: I totally agree.    Don: Yeah. Okay. Let's talk more about real estate. So, I know now you own 20 units. So, you have 20 doors, some of them single families, some of them multi-families, and you're based out of Colorado, Denver, right?    Kevin: The western side of Denver.    Don: Yeah, so the Denver I must say, so Metropolis area. Your properties, are you holding primarily in Colorado?   Kevin: I got eight properties in Memphis and the rest of everything I own is in Colorado. Looked at other areas, but it's difficult to have properties outside your own backyard. So, it's been my preference to try to stay close.   Don: Yeah, definitely. So, these units, you said few of them single families and then some of them are duplexes or triplexes?   Kevin: Yes, some small multies but let me give you an idea. I am shrinking my portfolio right now. I had a fourplex that I had a lease option on and my option was about to expire, I ended up exercising the option on that and combining it with the next-door neighbor's lot. And now we're building 13 units. Those 13 units are going to be for sale. So, it's a for-sale product.   Don: That's very interesting. Let's talk about that. So, you basically had an option to buy, right? So, it was a lease option. And then you exercise the option and then you purchase a duplex, right there was a duplex you said?   Kevin: It was a four-unit and I had a 10-year option on it. And so, I exercised it after 10 years, so I already had a pretty low basis in it.   Don: How much consideration did you put when you put the agreement?   Kevin: Oh, I've never put the consideration down.    Don: Okay, nice. So, you bought those four units for whatever price that you had on the option to buy it. And then you've basically combined the other lot next to it, right? So, you basically did a folio combination.   Kevin: Yeah, we just did a little assemblage. Tracking down that neighbor was an interesting story. But I ended up finding him on Facebook. Messaging him on Facebook, because he would never answer his door when I knocked on it. He was nervous. So, we hired a real estate broker. So, the real estate broker and we spoke and he got a full price offer on that property. But you know what, it added more value to me since I own a lot next door than it was who was willing to pay for it. And then we put the two together and created a nice little project that's going to make a bunch of money. But that's just one example. So now I'm going to be down four doors because I converted my for rent product into a for-sale product.  Don: Yeah, but you're going to be up 13 doors when finishing the development and then you could sell them or you can hold them in, that's up to you right? But I want to ask you about the assemblage. So, you assemble the two lots and so you paid a premium for the lot, obviously, because it makes sense to you. But when you assembled the two lots, what was the process of doing that with the city?   Kevin: What I did was hired a consultant to walk me through that process. That's not my niche. So, I would rather hire someone that's much better at that. I hired somebody and we had an architect involved. And we came up with a plan based on the Denver Code of what we could build. And then we do a pre-development meeting with the city to make sure that they're on board. And then we push it through the process after that meeting.   Don: Nice. So first of all, you went to the architect and you came up with the plans because I'm also developing right now with 30 units here in Hollyw

Bill Manassero is proof that it’s never too late to invest in real estate. Bill made his first deal at the great age of 60! Based in Irvine, California, he has worked in offices, worked as a musician, and operated his own businesses all his life. His music led him to take part on a mission in Haiti, where he started his organization named ‘Child Hope International’ which helps the children of Haiti. After a few years on the mission, he and his family moved back to the states and hit the ground running in the world of real estate.    In this episode, Bill talks about his life in Haiti, how he came up with the idea of helping orphaned and abandoned children. He also discusses why & how he jumped into real estate, about his first deals, his lessons learned from it, and how he made the transition into a 22 unit deal.  Episode Highlights:   Bill’s Mission in Haiti His Start In Real Estate Paralysis of Analysis Hiring Property Managers Connect with Bill:   Website:  OldDawgsREINetwork.com   - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - -   TRANSCRIPTION   Intro: Hey guys, and welcome to the show. Today, I'm very excited to host Bill Manassero. And Bill's story is very inspiring, particularly because of the fact that he started investing in real estate when he was 60 years old. A lot of people say that they're afraid of jumping in because they feel like that ship has already sailed, or they're too young and many other excuses why not getting into real estate. But how about being 60 years old, not having enough money to retire or thinking about retirement and getting into real estate at that particular point? I think that's inspiring, and it doesn't matter the situation, I think it's something that we should learn from. So, without further ado, let's have Bill Manassero.   Lady: Welcome to the commercial real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to off-market strategies.   Don: Hey, Bill, welcome to the show, and happy Thanksgiving.   Bill: Hey, it's great to join you here today. This is Happy Thanksgiving to you too.   Don: Thank you for much. I'm actually Israeli. I know Thanksgiving is an American holiday or like an American event and I have been in this country for eight years. And it's my favorite holiday here, I guess because it reminds me of home. As Israeli people, we assemble every Friday for a Friday dinner with our families.    Bill: Shabbat   Don: Yes, Shabbat dinner. And that is the closest that we got here. So, I love it. I love this holiday and I love the atmosphere and I love the fact that Florida is getting a little bit colder. That's amazing.   Bill: How cold, down to 70 now or something?   Don: Oh it's 75.   Bill: Oh, man, you must have big down coats on.   Don: Yeah I'm wearing a jacket, don't ask. How's the situation in California, right, you're based off California?   Bill: Yeah, I'm in Southern California. It's called South Orange County which borders San Diego County. A very nice area here. Just love it. The beautiful and yeah, I think we're down in the 60s and 50s here lately, so we're getting really cold. And the people, of course, listening and Michigan and places like that are just saying. Yeah, right. What are you guys talking about? Don: That's right. Yeah. Okay. So, Bill, how about you tell us a little bit about yourself in your real estate career? I know you're a very accomplished man, and you've done a lot in your career. So, tell us about yourself, what you're doing right now, what you've done in the past. Let's hear all about it.   Bill: Oh, you bet. Sure. Well, I don't know how far back you want me to go. It'd be a long show here but I'll just try to give you an overview. Mainly grew up in Southern California, started off early in the banking industry, or at that time, what they called savings and loans, and learned a lot about just the financial transactions that occur and how funds are taken in and dispersed in the way of mortgage loans and so forth and did that for a number of years. And then I opened my own consulting firm, mainly in marketing and public relations. Did that for a long time. Work with the automotive industry. Moved into the technology area. Eventually got involved with a new tech startup, an internet company that was started by a group of Harvard MBAs, one of the persons who was who started eBay and Meg Whitman. Everything is going great, exciting, we're just kind of watching our stock options grow and then boom, the internet bubble burst. And so, I kind of got my first...   Don: Talking about '99 right?   Bill: Yeah, exactly. And then I went into a sort of a totally different direction. I felt like I was called into the ministry and actually started, I've been a musician. I earned my way through college, playing in clubs and doing all that kind of stuff.    Don: It sounds like a very Californian life. you're a musician, you stumble upon the founder of eBay, like across the street.   Bill: Kind of like that. Yeah, a little bit more complicated, how it all came together, trying to rush through here so I won't give you a four-hour version. But that was it. I have been playing guitar since I was a kid. So yeah. And then we started a little rock band for kids and it was wild and we just traveled around the US and played at festivals and churches.   Don: What about real estate??   Bill: Okay, I'm getting there. Okay. So, anyway, so this kind of brought me into old-time mission opportunity in Haiti, specifically, it's in the Caribbean. And Haiti is one of the poorest, if not the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere.    Don: I know much about it actually. It was just a matter of who occupied the country. The Dominican Republic was occupied by I think it was France?   Bill: That was Spain.   Don: Spain and France occupied the Haitian people. And so what happened was that the French people and excuse me if your French guy listening or friends you're listening, sorry about that but they were known to exploit the land so much that the land is just, it doesn't have any vegetation that grows. There was no advantage in raising crops when you compare it with the Dominican Republic and up until this day, If you ever look on this island, which is the exact same terrain both these nations have, if you look at this island from an aerial perspective, then you will see that Haiti is like barren and kind of brown from satellite pictures, whereas the Dominican Republic is all green and forest.   Bill: That's true. It looks exactly like that. Of course, there are different versions of the story. The island initially was founded by Christopher Columbus and it right before he came to America, and it was called Hispaniola so it was all owned by Spain. And, of course, Napoleon and the Spanish were fighting and negotiated basically this island and they split off into smaller third was Haiti which became the French-owned part of it. And that's where the majority, in fact, all of the coffee and I believe the sugar at that time was supplied to Europe through Haiti. It was extremely productive. Also, all the slaves rose up.   Don: Yeah. The people stayed poor. What were you doing there though, I mean, how does it do it real estate?   Bill: Well, it's part of the story. I had been 20 years in business and corporate had been an entrepreneurial side, just a full run a business. So, when I got over to Haiti, I think was coming into my 50s. And we set up a mission over there. And we worked primarily with the street kids in Haiti. We set up vocational training programs and micro businesses for them. They had orphanage for girls and four boys and a guest house and a medical clinic and a school and all these different things primarily because there are 300,000 orphans on the street. So, it's a big problem over there. We spent about 12 years there. It was kind of getting near the end of our mission time and getting older and it's just a tough place to survive and live.  We were prepared to stay, for the duration, but at the same time, my kids are growing up and going back to the States. I have seven kids, a lot of activities going on. And so, we prayed about it. We said this thinks what we want to do is prepare for retirement in the states and so my going to try to get a job with somebody. I thought 60 who's going to hire you, realistically. And then I'd run businesses, I thought that's probably more likely, it makes more sense to me, maybe starting my own business. I'm looking at all kinds of things. I started venturing while I was in Haiti into online businesses and started, generate some income with that. And I thought, wow, this is too much work and I want something that would be passive. And so, I got an unexpected inheritance check in the mail. And I was heavily invested in the stock market and thought I just don't want to take this and put it into the market because that one, it was pretty volatile at that time. And so, I'm looking at what options, maybe as an alternative.    Don: Okay, tell us what you got.   Bill: Okay. I have a board of directors, a nonprofit organization called Child Hope International. That's the organization that funds Haiti and so forth. A couple of guys on my board were heavily into real estate. We had a developer, we had a guy that just invested. They did well and I was going well, that could be something for me. So, I just started digging into books and I started researching. I went online, YouTube, went to webinars, I read tons and tons of books, just trying to get an idea of what's real estate investing all about and order people's programs, I had flipping programs, I had programs. I would order these programs in the mail and was trying to learn what I'd want to do.    At first, I thought I was going to flip and I thought that'd be good, but I'd go like that's another full-time job. I don't want to do that, moving into my retirement years, right. So, looked a

Scott Meyers is a real estate investor based in Indianapolis. It all began in 2005 and since then he has grown in the self-storage industry as a developer, owner, syndicator, and operator. He has several multi-million dollar businesses under his belt but his favorite is self-storage and today he is in control of over 7,500 units. Scott started ‘The Self-Storage Mastermind’ to teach others about the self-storage business.  In today’s episode, he discusses how he entered the real estate industry, why he’s chosen to grow with self-storage, and what one should keep in mind before investing in a facility. He gives us insight on one of his memorable deals over the years- what happened, what he learned and what’s going on with it today.  Some Of The Episode Highlights: His Self-Storage Business His ‘Why’ in Self-Storage The ‘Boomerang Property’ Special Gift for Our Listeners    Connect with Scott: Website: selfstorageinvesting.com   - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hey guys, this is Don, your host. In today's episode, I will interview Scott Myers. Scott is an amazing investor and he specializes in one of the most interesting asset classes, self-storage facilities. Today, me and Scott will discuss the nature of this market. Also, as previously mentioned, I want to remind you that you have an opportunity to get a free 30-minute phone call with me and Eden if you review our podcast on iTunes. Simply rate the podcast and write a review of how you feel about the content and the show. To redeem, email us the content of the review to Hello@donandeden.com. You will then be contacted and scheduled for a 30-minute phone call with me and Eden, where you could ask questions or network about any subject or project that you would like. So, let's get started and I hope you guys will enjoy the interview. Lady: Welcome to the commercial real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to off-market strategies. Don: Scott, welcome to the show. How are you doing today? Scott: Hey, Don, I am fantastic. How about yourself? Don: I'm great. How's the weather up in Indiana? Scott: Well, that depends. We had our first snowfall of the year last night. It had about three inches, which is a little bit more than we normally get this time of year. So, I think I'd rather be down next to you conducting this interview right now. Don: Yeah, I mean, we just got the best weather right now in Florida. It's been very muggy for November, 75 degrees all throughout. I used to live in the Midwest, and I know it kind of gets cold in that period of time of the year, right? Scott: Sure can. Yep. Don: Yes. You've been living in Indiana, all of your life, born and raised? Scott: Born and raised in Michigan. I went to the University of Michigan and after I graduated, I moved down to Indianapolis where I took a job. I was working in the telecommunications industry before I got involved in real estate. Don: Wow. Okay, so that's a pretty sharp transition. What made you move into real estate? Scott: When I began looking in investment books on ways to I guess diversify my retirement rather than relying on our 401k stocks and bonds and mutual funds ran across several books, one of which was Robert Kiyosaki's book terms in real estate and the more I looked at more I realized that I didn't want to put my money into the stock market as the poor dad did in Robert Kiyosaki's book 'Rich Dad, Poor Dad.' And so, I began investing in single-family homes and then it took off after that. Don: Yeah, let's talk about your initial investments in the single-family space. What did you do, fix and flip? Scott: Began to buy single-family homes, and then fix them up, refinance them and rent them out. And I did that for a number of years until holding. It's kind of a tough gig holding on as a landlord unless you're flipping some as well. So once the economy began to turn in 1999 and 2000 during that downturn, shortly after the government came out with the Community Reinvestment Act, and made it easy, a little too easy for anybody to own a home and so we began then turning around our houses to sell them. So, we became retailers in addition to landlords. Don: Nice. I know right now you're focusing primarily on self-storage. Tell us about the first time you got to learn about this asset class and this market in general. Scott: Began looking into self-storage because of, well, that wasn't the cash flow that I wanted to have in single-family homes and apartments on like I had intended. And then when I went back and looked at the business model, I realized that most of my expenses were a result of a related to tenants and toilets and trash. And so, we all love real estate and we love running real estate if it weren't for that. So, I began looking into what are the other asset classes in real estate that has the benefits of real estate, but without all the hassles of the three T's. And it's either parking lots or self-storage. And so, the more I begin to look into self-storage in the business model, yeah, I really liked what I saw. And began attending some industry trade shows, then dip my toe in the water by getting into a partnership with someone in a self-storage facility. And the rest they say is history. Don: Yeah. So, there is a question that I want to ask you. I know now that you're very big on the self-storage space and you own or you're in control of over 7500 units, I’m guessing in self-storage just since 2005. So, you've been a longtime player in that space, but I want to ask you more about the beginning because I remember I just recently did a transition from residential wholesale real estate into commercial real estate. And even then, being an experienced investor and owning a lot of properties and having capital, it's not easy. So, you said something about going to shows and learning about... So, tell us a little bit about that period of time where you did not make your first deal in self-storage yet, but very attracted to that asset class and what you did in that time period, how much time did it take for you to get your first deal? Scott: There weren't any resources. You found me, Don because we have an education company as well. We teach people how to go about and do this business and we've been doing that since 2008. But prior to that, that company was really born as a result of that. There wasn't a resource, there wasn't a Scott Meyers out there to learn from it. So, I attended the industry trade shows and those shows are primarily for the folks that are already in the business.  So, I begin talking to the attendees and just asking them, "What do you like best about self-storage and what don't you like about self-storage?" just to get an understanding from several folks that before me and how to get into it. There still wasn't any way to learn the nuts and bolts, the A to Z or how to get into it. When I came home as I began to do more research on my own, I reached out to a consultant in the industry and I spent a day with him and drove around and taking notes and asking about it.  He owned a management company as well. And he managed several facilities for other folks. I asked him as many questions as I possibly could to fill in the gaps and I filled up three notebooks full of paper, just answering the questions that I had about the business and I, like you, been in multifamily and apartments and I understood commercial real estate. But all the nuances and all the intricacies of self-storage to bridge that gap and fill in the gaps took me all day and a bunch of notes and even then there was no way to get it all but that's how I started. And then just sort of trial by the fire going out and talking to other owners and brokers and begin exploring and looking at several facilities to buy. Don: Okay, tell us a little bit about the market itself. So, what are the biggest players, what is considered a big property? I know so when you're looking at multifamily anything over 200 units is considered very big. Mobile home parks, anything over 150 is considered institutional. So, what would you say is a big deal when you talk about self-storages? Scott: Yeah, we're in that 400 to 450 unit range and which equates to roughly greater than 60,000 square feet. Those facilities that are larger than those are the ones that are going to be typically institutional, so those are the ones are going to be held by Public Storage or Extra Space or Bridge or CubeSmart number of the big players or reads in the marketplace. Now not all the time we own several facilities that are that size as well with the goal and the intention of eventually off to the reeds and that's what we're developing and building now. That's really what's considered the big boys. And so the reeds are the institutional properties and facilities that size you know, that only accounts for about nine to 10% of all the units and all the square footage of self-storage are below that and are owned by some regional players that own you know, 1, 2, 5, 7 properties. Some national players that aren't considered and then a lot of the mom and pops that we buy our facilities from that can go all the way down to as low as 15 between units per facility. Don: Okay. So, mom and pop are always good because you can get a pretty good deal. Somebody that owned the property for quite a while, they have a lot of equity typically and there is a lot of value-added. So, I would assume that the value adds basically comes to play when talking about raising up the rents, right? So, they're just not fulfilling their potential. Scott: Yeah, that's absolutely one of the ways that we look at. We're always looking at turnarounds and value adds and the first of which is usually what you just mentioned is usually poor management. They haven't raised rents in a while because they like to stay full, they have fallen behind on technol

Brian Burke, based in Santa Rosa, California, is a real estate investor and the President and CEO of Praxis Capital, which is a vertically integrated private equity investment firm. He established this firm back in 2001. He began his career in 1989, buying his first rental property which led him into the world of multi-family then commercial investing.  Brian is a successful entrepreneur and syndicator - today he shares how he started his real estate career and giving back to his community after the wildfire in California. He also discusses his investing strategy, where he’s looking to invest, what to expect from an investment and his future plans. Some Of The Highlights: His First Real Estate Investment and His Business Today His Work Strategy and Advice For a ‘Rainy Day’ In Business Brian’s Retirement Plan What is the preferred return?    Connect with Brian: Website: PRAXCAP.COM - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hey guys, this is Eden and today is a very special episode because we are going to host Brian Burke, who is one of the biggest investors on this show to date. Brian had completed half a billion in real estate purchases this year alone after a long and beautiful career that lasted for 30 years and still counting. When listening to this episode, I was personally amazed by how humble Brian is and the sheer perspectives and mindset real estate investors to have despite the fact that they never met before. Also, today we would like to ask you guys for a favor. If you love our content and feel like you're learning from this podcast, please go on iTunes and give us a five-star review. This helps the podcast to rank higher and the best, part if you give us five-star review, shoot us an email at Hello@donandeden.com with the content of the review and your phone number, and you'll get scheduled for 30 minutes phone call with me and Don where you can talk about real estate and get answers for the questions you always had. So, without further ado, let's get started. Lady: Welcome to the commercial real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to off-market strategies. Don: Hey Brian, welcome to the show. Brian: Thanks for having me on Don. Don: How's the weather in Santa Rosa, California? Brian: Oh, it's a beautiful day today, almost 80 degrees this afternoon and in November, which is a little unusual, but I'll take it. Don: I like to skate. It's like my hobby. So, I went to L.A., I went to Venice. I took a month off, just wanted to skate, took my skates with me and went there. Some people said it's the best place for anything that has wheels. And so, when I got there, that was late May and it was raining. It was like rain in L.A. and people told me it's very rare. That never happens. And it was kind of cold. And so, one of my friends that lives in California said that the weather over there was pretty unusual this year. Would you agree? Brian: Yeah, it was unusual. A lot of rain this spring and a lot of heat this fall. So, it's been a little bit unusual. But I would say the best weather in California is probably September and October. Those are usually some of the nicest months and people think that summer is probably the nicest, but it's not always the case. Don: Yeah not always the case. Is it still burning over there? I know you guys had the wildfires. Brian: There's a large fire. The largest fire in our country's history just got fully contained yesterday. And that was about a couple miles up the road from our office. So, we were under mandatory evacuation last week. And this week, we're back in action here in the office. Don: As sad it is to say that, I'm sure that these wildfires pose some great opportunities for real estate investors. Am I right? Brian: Well, once in a while they do and we had a fire in our city two years ago that wiped out 5000 homes in our city. We raised a fund last year to rebuild homes and our city and we raised about $8 million and we've been building single-family homes on burned-out home sites where the owners decided not to rebuild and elected instead to sell or move to a different area, put their lots up for sale and we're putting spec homes on those lots and got a couple of dozen homes under construction right now. So certainly it does breed some opportunity. Don: Not only opportunity, in this case, also give back to the community that is your city. Eventually, you want people to live in it and feel happy about it. Because that's home for you. Right? Brian: Yeah, people want the city to be put back the way it was. And we're doing our part to help do that and at the same time provide much-needed housing. When you lose 5000 homes in a city of 250,000 people it makes a real impact on housing demand, and there's a need for housing here. And we're helping to provide that which is pretty exciting. Don: That's beautiful. So, I know your real estate career is a very long one. You're one of the most successful entrepreneurs and syndicators on the show to date. I know you've amassed a portfolio of 250 to 300 million if my numbers are right and you've completed your half a billion in purchases of properties this year, am I right? Brian: Yeah. 2019 is a banner year for us. We crossed the half a billion-dollar mark and real estate purchase, which is an incredible accomplishment for me to even say that it is weird. I never imagined that in my lifetime I would do something like that. But we managed to pull it off. Now we've got a portfolio consisting mostly of multifamily properties. Our business focuses primarily a hundred units and up multifamily all across the US and we've got about 3000 units that we've done. Our portfolio now is about 250-300 million of value. We still do some single-family here and there. Of course, our fund where we're building homes in our city, so we're kind of a multidisciplinary real estate firm that started in single-family migrated to multifamily, but once you have developed roots and single-family, it's hard to lose those. Don: Yes. I started single families too, and let's be honest, it's fun. Even when you're doing commercial, it's still fun to do some projects there as well. So, let's talk about how it all started. When did you make your first steps in real estate? What was it back then? Because I know you've been doing real estate for 30 years, right? Brian: Yeah, my first real estate investment was a little over 30 years ago. In 1989 was my first real estate investment. Don: Just a side note. I was born in 1989. Brian: You were born? Yes. So, when you were busy being born, I was busy trying to find a house to buy and I made my first real estate investment. I didn't even own my own home but I bought a rental and fixed it up a little bit and a couple of years later sold that and I started doing some house flips, one house at a time and I was still working at the time and this enabled me to make a living on my job and then invest in real estate to build my future. Don: What a smart decision! So, one thing led to another and now you are in control of over 500 million worth of property in multifamily which is amazing. So, tell us a little bit about the first deal in multifamily. When was the first time you decided to buy a commercial property? Brian: My first multifamily was about 16 or 17 years ago. And it was here in California, it was a 16 unit apartment building. And what I was doing is I trying to figure out how to invest in commercial real estate, but I just didn't understand it very well. I didn't understand what the numbers meant or how to value it or how to evaluate it. Two rental houses that I accumulated through my house flipping business and flip one, keep one flip one, keep one. So, I had a couple of rentals I wanted to sell and I wanted to do a 1031 exchange and exchange up into an apartment building. It just seemed like it was an interesting way to grow the business and have more economies of scale and cash flow and all that.  So, I reached out to the real estate agent that was helping me sell my flips because he was a CCIM which is a certified commercial broker. And I said, "Hey, I don't understand any of this and will you teach me?" and he did. He taught me how to read an income statement and what to look for and all kinds of different things. And then not long after that, he's told me my first apartment building. I did a 1031 exchange and never looked back. Don: How was the first investment? Was it a good investment, a bad investment? Brian: Funny story is I just sold that property like two years ago. So, I kept it for a long time and I was able to do a 1031 exchange into an oceanfront condo in Hawaii where I rent that out and, maybe one day I'll even be able to move into it. Who knows? Don: We all have dreams. Being busy in real estate, you never stopped working. So, I know we talked a little bit before the show started. I asked you about the ways that you make money when you own such a massive portfolio, but most of it you syndicated. So, most of it, you had to raise money. And you had to structure a deal in which your investors are being paid first because I know you care about your investors. So how do you make money? How much money do you make on these types of deals that you're acquiring? What are your goals for the future as far as your financials? Brian: I started just entirely doing things with many of the resources that I could collect together. My first single-family investment was done with seller financing and then after that, I was like cash advance credit cards and getting signature lines of credit and all crazy kinds of things. I always tried to learn by putting my own money at risk. Then once I figured out how to do it right, I would go to investors and have investors invest. It took me about 12 years to start raising money from investors. And I did it for my single-family business.  First, I ra

In today’s episode, we have the pleasure of featuring a well known & respected mobile home park guru, Kevin Bupp. He entered the real estate world at the young age of 19 where he started with single-family residential real estate. As time went on, he learned about commercial real estate and grew his portfolio- right before the crash of 2008. Like everything, you live and learn- and that’s what Kevin did. He did some soul searching and wanted to focus on his hobbies of health and fitness. He took some time off of real estate and built a company around custom cycling clothes and ran a social club 'Running For Brews.’ However, Kevin still had that real estate fire in him and his vision changed after a lunch meeting. Kevin became intrigued in mobile home parks and he owns several of them throughout the US. In today’s episode, he discusses how and why he chose mobile home parks in this second round of his career, the factors of a good deal & how to find them, and the importance of being in a good headspace.  Episode Highlights: How Things Affected His Business In The Early 2000s 2012 Tragedy And Onwards The World of Mobile Home Parks Where To Learn About Investing In Mobile Home Parks   Connect with Kevin Website: Kevinbupp.com Company Website: sunrisecapitalinvestors.com Podcast: Real Estate Investing for Cash Flow  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  TRANSCRIPTION  Intro: Hey guys, today I'm very excited to discuss one of the most intriguing asset classes and one that is known to have caught my attention at least. And of course, I'm talking about mobile home parks. Mobile home parks are one of my primary targets as an investor because I truly believe that to create long term wealth, there is nothing better than buying a piece of land. And if that land also happens to be a cash cow, then I'm all in. I think mobile home parks are just that. So, in today's episode, I'm going to host Kevin Bupp who has a truly remarkable story and is considered a guru when it comes to mobile home parks. So, let's get going. Lady: Welcome to the commercial real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to off-market strategies. Don: Alright, hey, Kevin. Welcome to the show. Kevin: Hey, Don, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it. Don: Of course I was looking forward to it as well because I know you're one of the best mobile home park investors out there. So, I'm very happy to have you on the show because it's not a secret that I'm very interested in mobile home parks. But first, I'm going to ask you a little bit about your career and how you got started so my audience could get to know you a little bit better. Kevin: Sure. Mobile home parks have been our focus for the past seven years. However, it's not really where I got started. Like a lot of folks, I got started in single-family residential real estate. It was introduced to me or I was introduced to it back when I was 19 years old. Ultimately took me about a year and a half to buy my first property and spent the next couple of years following that introduction to residential focusing on building a single-family rental portfolio. And that's the direction of my mentor at that time. That's exactly what his business model was. So, I just followed it to a tee. We would only ever wholesale or flip a home when we needed to build up capital reserves. But the long term intent was to always build a portfolio for long term cash flow. At some point during the first couple of years, I was introduced to the world of commercial real estate more specifically multifamily property and so we started diving into the multifamily space as well. This is back pre-2008. This is back in 2002-2007, leading up to '08. So, we had built quite a large portfolio of single-family properties and instead of acquiring apartment complexes as well, along with other miscellaneous commercial real estate. Don: Sounds risky build up a big portfolio just before 2008. So, did it end well? Kevin: Well, if I had a crystal ball, I surely would have planned slightly differently, right? No, it didn't end well at all. We're down in Southwest Florida pretty much ground zero, one of the ground zeroes for the real estate crash and crisis. It was a very challenging time. The single-family market down here suffered greatly, not just from a value perspective, all of our properties have a lot of equity. We had a very low leverage point we thought was a very conservative leverage point in our single-family properties. But what we found is within a year period of time slightly less, most, if not all of them were upside down in value. Don: It's like the worst nightmare for every investor. What happened to you? You were investing in single families in Florida before 2008. That's the worst-case scenario. Kevin: Yeah, and it wasn't just the values it was a rental, the occupancy got affected, a lot of people are leaving Florida back then there weren't jobs, a lot of the jobs, were heavily relying on real estate, the growth of real estate, you know, building and development practices. So we had to hit to our rental premiums that were charged, and we had to start offering concessions, and your rents don't always continually go up, there are certain points in times where rents can be affected, and you might have a little more of a challenging time occupying your units will take longer than usual, you might have to give some concessions away, couple free months of rent or a discounted rent for the first couple of months. So, we had to do that, we had to do all the above.  It just was very, very hard to maintain the status quo when we had a portfolio that was underwater. In addition to that, it was negative cash flow, and it went from positive to a negative cash flow standpoint, you can't sustain that for very long least we couldn't. I didn't have $20 million sitting in the bank that could just keep feeding this beast and so we hung on for as long as we could. But ultimately, we were forced to essentially give back a lot of our portfolio to the banks. At that point, the banks didn't have the loss mitigation departments. This was very fresh. Most banks were forced to create those departments within their company to do workouts and loan modifications. However, that did not exist. The first year when things started going completely haywire, and so none of the banks were willing to work with us whatsoever. That's the last thing they wanted to discuss was that loan workout. We really did what we had to do and we tried to hold on as long as we could and ultimately had to get back a lot of what we had built over the years. Don: Okay, so when you say give back, I assume it was a deed in lieu? Foreclosure, right? Kevin: We had hundreds of properties. So, deed in lieu, some of the banks were so in disorganization at that point that they just didn't, there was a way we could speak with just ultimately went through the judicial process and went through foreclosure. We would short sell whatever we could just that we tried to work with the banks as much as possible. We were here, we were open, we're open-minded and willing to work with them. And so, some of the banks worked with us through short sales, we did that.  Others again, there was no communication, there was no dialogue and so, those ultimately went through the judicial foreclosure process somewhere deed in lieu or willing to do whatever we could to ease the process on both sides. But again, there wasn't much organization with a lot of banks in the first couple of years of the crash. Now every bank has a loss mitigation department. There are people, there's a dedicated department to deal with loan modifications and doing reworks with borrowers. That didn't exist. It just didn't exist back then. Don: Of course. Going a little bit forward, then it's 2012. I know you made your first mobile home park deal, right? Kevin: That's correct. Yeah, took a couple of years off a real estate. Well, I shouldn't have I kind of kicked myself in the butt now. But it was damage control for a number of years. It was very hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. And it's not a sob story. I've learned a lot from it. I lost my personal residence and got bank accounts got garnished. It was a very ugly personal time for me. I'm still young at heart today but I mean, I was in my 20s. And I'd never gone through something like this before. I've only ever experienced the positives of real estate. It was a lot to consume and to digest. I knew that I needed to focus on my health and fitness. And so, I started a few other businesses that were directly related to the health and fitness industry and that allowed me to number one, create some revenue and income for myself because I was broke. I mean, I'd have anything and my bank account got garnished.  Don: What kind of business? Kevin: I started two different companies. One was a custom clothing company. I was a big runner, and I'm a cyclist, triathlete. And so, I was already ingrained in that community. And there was a huge need for custom cycling clothes and also running clothes for big events that we got into the sublimation business. I knew nothing about it before just watch some YouTube videos and did a bunch of my research and ultimately built a printing company. In addition to that, I love craft beer, and I love running as well. I thought there might be a great marriage. This is back again in like 2009 craft beer was kicking off. It wasn't as big as what it is today, but it was on a roll.  So, I started a social running club that was called 'Running For Brews', and once a week and a set location, we meet for a social run. And afterward we have been at a local brewery and we ultimately ended up opening up 45 locations throughout the country. The bars we charge them for basically bringing people every week to the ba

Andrew Syrios has been in the real estate business for over 10 years. Born in a real estate investing family, he was mentored by his father, Bill Syrios, who is also a real estate investor. His father started investing in the early 80s. Andrew is based in Kansas City, MO. He joined the family business straight out of college. He is the owner of more than 500 units in Missouri and manages own portfolio. His real estate preference is to buy and hold for cash flow.   In this episode, both Andrew and Don discuss their experience in real estate investing. Andrew gives a lot of details about how, when and where to invest. Andrew discusses his thoughts on a possible recession along with possible factors to look for.  Also the importance of standardizing certain tasks in order to streamline your business, get more done and have everyone on the same page.     Episode Highlights:  When and How He Started Investing Tenant vs. the Landlord Friendly States His Criteria For Choosing a Property Importance of Having Systems & Policies in Place Connect with Andrew: Website:  Andrewsyrios.com Podcast: The Good Stewards Podcast   - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  TRANSCRIPTION   Intro: Hey guys. On today's episode, we're going to have Andrew Syrios. Andrew had been investing in real estate for the past 10 years. He does mostly single families and some small multi-families in Kansas City, Missouri. I like the fact that he's scaling a business that most people say is unscalable, which proves time and time again that there are many ways to become a successful real estate investor. So stay tuned and enjoy the interview.   Lady: Welcome to the commercial real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to off-market strategies.   Don: Hey, Andrew, welcome to the show.   Andrew: Hey, thank you for having me.   Don: Yes. You're welcome. I know you're based off Kansas City, Missouri?   Andrew: Yes. Good old Kansas City.   Don: Yeah. And we just had a lovely conversation about Kansas City is one of the only cities that are two cities divided into two states. So, we were talking about how it is to be a real estate investor in an area like that. So, I guess I would want to ask you that again so that you could clarify to our audience a little bit about that.   Andrew: Put it on the record. Yeah, I mean, it is interesting. I mean, we call it KC Mo and KC K, we're based on the Missouri side. Every city's got different pockets, good areas, bad areas, areas that are too expensive for buy and hold and rentals and whatnot. I'd say the biggest issue is kind of there are some hard breaks particularly like Kansas City, Missouri has the main part of downtown Kansas City is in KC Mo. And when you go across the river there and the KC K, it shifts pretty drastically. So, you have some pretty drastic changes in some parts. In some areas, you go across the state line, and it's like nothing changed at all. That's some of it but also there are some law changes. That's also true. The county, they're six counties in the Kansas City, Missouri metro area. The laws are a little bit different. For example, in Jackson County, Missouri, the evictions can take substantially longer than they take Johnson County or Wyandotte county is what has Kansas City, Kansas. But at the same time when you evict someone, you have to store their stuff for a little while on the Kansas side. Missouri said they just tell you to throw them on the lawn.   Don: Is it a tenant-friendly state?   Andrew: I would say both Kansas and Missouri are pretty in the middle. But I think Kansas is probably a little bit more so on the tenant-friendly side.   Don: I know a lot of investors that would steer away from tenant-friendly states, and it's understandable. It's difficult.   Andrew: Yeah, well, if they put in something like California, and I think Oregon just put in rent control, and New York has a long history of that. And that can make it very difficult to make margin especially in these expensive places where you know, it's it takes so much money to buy a property and then you can't rent it up to the market. There's something in Kansas City they're trying to push for like the Kansas City tenant Bill of Rights. This would only be for Kansas City, Missouri, won't even be for other cities in Missouri, but it has some weird language. I'm not a lawyer, so I won't try to parse it out. But stuff like trying to restrict your ability to do tenant screening, and that's been sort of a thing throughout the country as well, which makes it particularly risky, especially if you either can't do it or can't do as many banks can do it stuff like that. I think it's just something that a lot of buying hold investors need to take into account when they're looking at an area. Generally, it's going to be probably trickier than that. It's not going to be impossible, but it's going to be more difficult something you need to be more prepared for.   Don: Yeah, most definitely. I just had a very interesting conversation with somebody that I did some networking with. And he's coming from New York, he's a nice guy, made some fortunate in real estate. And now he's telling me he's got a situation with one of the buildings that he owns. The building, he's trying to sell it and the building is worth around $2,000,000, but since it has tenants inside, it's worth around $1,200,000. Because in New York, you can't raise the rent unless you have renovated 75% of the building. And I'm sorry if I'm wrong about this, I'm not sure that's what I heard from him. And this is a true story. He's saying that the tenants hired attorneys, and they're asking him for $100,000 each to leave.   Andrew: I've heard of stuff like that where they're trying to do developments and there is that one guy like I'm not leaving no matter what.   Don: One tenant he said he's asking for $200,000. That was a point where I figured out that I'm done with this and he took his stuff, his family, everything and he just moved to Florida. I'm based out of Florida, Florida is very, very friendly with the landlords. It's very easy to do things here. And that's why you got a lot of investors. So, I would not even be able to fathom the idea of investing in a tenant-friendly state. But I know a lot of people do that.   Andrew: Obviously, tenants do need some protection. I despise slumlords as much as the next guy. And I don't think these things help that I think what they do is drive investment money out of the real estate, which is if you want to reduce the cost of housing and you want to make housing more affordable, the biggest thing you need to do is push investment into real estate. And so, it's completely counterproductive. Although I think it is important to recognize that tenants do need some protections they absolutely You know, there are slumlords out there and we especially I think as real estate investors should do our part to try to shame those slumlords into basically changing their ways because although I think a lot of them either incompetence or they ran out of money. Real Estate Investors go bankrupt too. So that's part of the equation. You can't raise rents. You can't do tenant screening. The biggest complaint we get from tenants like properties we're looking at is don't let anybody in here. That's not pro-tenant that's an extremely anti tenant. So...   Don: I want to talk a little bit about yourself and your career. So, I know that you've been investing in real estate in the past 10 years. I know that in Kansas City, Missouri alone, you own over 500 units. You're also managing your own portfolio, which is very, very interesting. Also, there's another interesting fact about you, Andrew, and that is the fact that you had your father as a figure, as a real estate investor in your life, and you're kind of stepping into his shoes. So, I want to ask you about that in particular, and how that affected your real estate career.   Andrew: My father got started real estate in Oregon back in the late 80s. And I was kind of when I was growing up and he bought a lot of student housing at the University of Oregon, which turned out to be a very good investment at that time. When I graduated from college, we were flipping houses. And eventually got kind of sick of that because basically, student housing got too expensive to buy and hold with anymore. Eventually variety reasons we came out to the Midwest, whereas housing prices are less expensive. It's easier to cash flow and my brother into joining me out here but my father is still in real estate.    We have a podcast that we do the ‘Good Stewards Podcast’, it's a weekly thing on real estate, we just go over real estate topics and he's still very involved in the company focuses on Oregon. The way we like real estate is to buy and hold for cash flow. I like that Midwest markets that peaks and valleys aren't as high low in the Midwest, the South kind of those cash flow areas. And we want properties that can cash flow well. Some people are a little bit more into the vine, an area that's improving in one of these coastal markets that have a lot of upward potentials. There's upward potential here, but I just personally stress if the property cash flows with the appreciations are great, that's kind of the cherry on top.   Don: We can buy for appreciation. We always have to buy for cash flow. You can do whatever you like, right? But I guess when you buy for cash flow, then it's kind of mitigating the risk. You know that you're going to make money on this, you know that you're going to be able to pay your annual debt service, which is I think the biggest fear for an investor is not being able to pay their debt service. Right?   Andrew: Yeah, I think the way I've always looked at it is Warren Buffett's first and second rule of investing, ‘don't lose your principal’ and ‘don't lose your investment’. And the securi

Joe Bodek is born and raised outside of Philadelphia, PA. After his grandfather and father, he is a third-generation real estate entrepreneur. He received the guidance of his father, one of the largest developers and builders in the country at that time. He continued in the real estate business up until 2012. After that, he became a mentor because he wanted to solve other people's problems and share his knowledge of real estate. He created a revolutionary mentoring system called the 'Earn While You Learn Lease Option Mentoring Program.' The most important factor of this program is that it costs a whole lot less money in comparison to other courses in the market. This course is for everyone who is facing financial problems but are eager to take real estate courses and make a living out of it. Episode Highlights: Joe Bodek’s Family History And How He Became An Investor Leasing A House Types Of Lease Options: Sandwich And Wholesale Mastering Lease Options In Commercial Properties Future Goals Of Joe Bodek How He Became A Real Estate Mentor.   Connect with Joe: Website: realestatementoringUSA.com Email: JBODEK1@gmail.com   - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hey guys, today I'm excited to talk about a subject that many people always ask me about. And to talk about that subject, I'm going to host Joe Bodek. Joe is a lease option mentor. And despite the fact that it has to do a lot with residential real estate, I think it's a super interesting subject nonetheless. And you could also apply these powerful techniques in commercial real estate, in what would be known as a master lease option. So, let's start and don't forget to check us out at DonandEden.com and remember you can always shoot us an email at Hello@Donaneden.com.   Lady: Welcome to the commercial real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden, where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to off-market strategies.   Don: Hey, Joe, how are you doing today? Welcome to the show.   Joe: Oh, good, Don, how are you? I appreciate you having me on.   Don: Yes, of course. I think it's important to have somebody like you because you're dealing with lease options, which is a very interesting subject, and I haven't had anybody in the show that is doing that up until now. So, I would like to hear everything there is to know about it. And I'm sure that the audience would appreciate that as well. But first of all, I want you to tell us a little bit about yourself and your background and how you got into real estate, to begin with.   Joe: Don, I'm not the usual story that you hear about the individual that was working in the cubicle, hated his job, hated his boss, saw the infomercial at three o'clock in the morning and went and signed up for it, got into real estate and of course, the rest is history. You hear that a lot out there these days. I'm not of that area. I was birthed into real estate. I'm the third generation. My grandfather was a developer, builder. My father was one of the biggest developers and builders in the country back in the 50s and 60s and early 70s. By way of explanation, if anybody lives in that split level, or knows what a split-level home is, my dad's want to make them famous. He claims he invented them. I'm not quite sure he did that but he made it kind of famous, he's got thousands of them. So, I was mentored by him for a number of years, work with him running about 3000 apartment units for him and learn to build houses and develop ground. So, I have a fairly decent background in conventional real estate. And then back in the 80s, he decided he wanted to retire, everything got sold off. And I went out on my own eventually got into creative real estate, dealing with wholesaling and lease options and subject to and those kinds of deals, and did that for about 25 years. And for the last, I think it was about 8 or 10 years, I'm not exactly sure, I started mentoring people and found that I was pretty good at coaching. And over the last 8 or 10 years, that's what I've been doing, mentoring and coaching people at least options and wholesaling. And that brings us pretty much up to today.   Don: Wow. So yeah, I got a lot of questions about this story. First of all, I want to say that you're very lucky to be born into a family that is dealing with real estate because you absorb things from an early age and you understand the potential of that business right on. It's something that I'm sure you're grateful for and appreciate right?   Joe: To have my dad is my first mentor was pretty phenomenal. His background was pretty amazing. It gave me a look at both sides of the coin because I got to do conventional real estate which is going out and buying properties and building apartments and all that and go building houses and developing ground. And then they got me the ability to go into creative real estate, which is a lot of fun to do. And of course, you don't have to work with banks as much and all the stuff that I did it was completely the opposite. I had to relearn real estate when I went into creative real estate because it was the opposite of everything I had learned. So yeah, it's been a good career. I've had a good time at it. I've been lucky. I've been around a lot of people that knew what they were doing.   Don: Yeah, we started doing creative real estate in the beginning. So that's how we started and that's how I feel a lot of people are getting started today. Because today you're able to start with creative real estate with no money and no knowledge, no college degree, and for me it was perfect. I'm sure it's very interesting that you got to see all types of real estate during your career. You're focusing right now in coaching and helping others, which I'm sure is very gratifying, right?   Joe: To be perfectly honest with you, I was getting ready to retire. I had done hundreds and hundreds of deals in the last 25 years, and I'm not a spring chicken anymore. And then, you know, what was I going to do sit around click coupons? That didn't make much sense to me. And people kept asking me, how do you do a lease option? How do you do this and coaching all these people? And somebody eventually said to me, why don't you open up a company and do this because you're pretty good at it. And that's how it all came about. So, I decided, well, I'm not going to retire, I'm going to keep doing it. And to be perfectly honest with you, I get way more of a thrill at a coach and a student to get them through their first deal or get them to expand their business and get it flying than I ever did build a house.   Don: You know, when you're in real estate for so long, then the money is no longer the main purpose if you ask for my opinion. I mean, of course, it is the thing I mean, you still want to make money, but it's not just money, it's also the impact, it's also the ability to affect people. And I feel the same when people talk to me about real estate wholesale, which is how I got started in the residential real estate wholesale. The first time you tell people about this, then they go crazy. They don't believe that you can even do things like that. Lease options are pretty much the same as wholesale. The first time you hear it, it's kind of hard to grasp, but then you realize how ingenious this is, right?   Joe: A lot of people, as you just said, they're kind of taken aback when they hear the word lease option. They think it's very difficult, got to go to night school to learn how to do this type of thing, and it's not. The best way I can explain it to your listeners would be if they're familiar with a car lease and how that works. This is the same thing. In a car lease, you go ahead and you lease your car for a period of time, usually it's three years on a car lease, and at the end of that lease period, you have the opportunity to either go ahead, you have the option to purchase that vehicle, or you can give it back and go get another one from the dealer or go somewhere else and get a car. Same thing here. You're going to lease property for a period of time, which you're going to establish with the seller. And then at the end of that lease period, you have the opportunity to go ahead and purchase the house at a predetermined set price, or you can say no, I'm want to move out and go find another place to live. So, the easiest way to look at it is it works just like a car lease, you just substitute a house.    Don: Yeah. But then it gets a little bit trickier because you assign the lease to an end buyer, and you still able to make money on all the ends on the front end, back end, and the rent money. So, let's talk a little bit about that and how you make money as the investor or the entrepreneur and a lease option.   Joe: Okay, now, first and foremost, there are two types of lease options. We'll talk about this one first, which is called a sandwich lease option. And then if you'll permit me after we've done that, we can talk about the wholesale lease option. Sandwich lease option has three paydays to it, which is kind of unique. So, what happens is, you're going to go ahead and you're going to enter into a lease option agreement with the seller and you have the right at this point, to sublease the property. You are now the tenant of the seller, of the owner. And you have the right to put a tenant in that house and sublease the property. So, what you do is you find a tenant-buyer, a buyer that's interested in purchasing a house, a tenant-buyer wants to live in it for a little while, and then purchase it at the end of the lease just like a car lease. And what you have at this point is three paydays.    The first Payday is called ‘Option Consideration’. That's the money that the tenant-buyer gives you upfront before they ever move into the house. That's called an Option Consideration. And that will go towards the sale price of the property when he settles on it. And that's nonrefun

Douglas Skipworth has had an entrepreneurial heart from a young age. He began his journey in community banking and worked on earning his CPA and CFA certifications. Since then, he has been in the residential real estate industry for about 20 years and is passionate about partnering with others to develop thriving real estate businesses. He currently co-owns CrestCore Realty, which manages 2,500 properties in Memphis, TN. Along with his partner, they have built several real estate companies in brokerage, management, lending, and construction.  In this episode, he discusses his life and business, the advantages of community banks, ideal criteria for investing in a new deal, the importance of connecting with others and shares helpful advice on education for today’s world. Listen in as he shows us hows real estate and adding value to others tie it all together.  Episode Highlights: How Much It Helps Your Business If You Connect With More People Effects Of Borrowing Too Much Money For Education How Local Banks Help In Real Estate Investing Importance Of Establishing A Relationship With Local Community Banks Douglas’ Interest In Helping Certain Types Of People Via His Businesses   Connect with Douglas: Website: crestcore.com Email: Douglas@crestcore.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  TRANSCRIPTION  Intro: Hey guys, this is Eden your co-host. Welcome to the show where we talk about all aspects of commercial real estate investing. Today, Don is interviewing Douglas Skipworth. Doug has been investing in real estate in the past 20 years. And today he'll cover a lot of subjects including community banks, relationships in real estate and some philosophical issues like college and financial freedom through self-educating yourself with the tools that are available to us nowadays. I want to mention, again, our new website that's forming a decent shape you can visit us at DonandEden.com. Also, remember you can always reach out to us I answer all emails personally: Hello@donandeden.com. So, let's get started guys. Lady: Welcome to the commercial real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to off-market strategies. Don: All right. Hey, Douglas. Welcome to the show. Douglas: Hey, Don. Great to be here. Don: Yes, I think you deserve it because you've been doing real estate since 2001. Right? Douglas: That's correct. My partner started in 2001. And I started in real estate in 2002. Between the two of us, we're going on 20 years. Don: Wow. So, you guys have been through a lot, right? So, you started, the market was going up, then there was a bubble, and then everything changed. And then you guys probably had to make some adjustments and change business models. Now, when the markets have been going up for a few good years. Douglas: Yeah, it's so funny, because I don't know when you always talk about the good old days. I don't know if the good old days were when things were running up, or the good old days, because we were, you know, we were buying and refinancing and things were great or when things kind of went bust, because that was a huge opportunity for us personally to add to our portfolio as other investors busted in community banks had deals to give away and then rates have been so low for the past 10 years that that's been a good time. So, if you kind of look back at the past 20 years it has been the good old days. Don: Yeah, I don't know who said it. I'm pretty sure it's Warren Buffett. "When there's blood on the street, buy real estate." Douglas: So true. Don: Yeah. So, tell us about the early stages of your career. How did you get started? What did you do? How did you even hear about real estate? And what were your goals at the time? Douglas: Great question. After college, I knew I wanted to start a business. So I kind of jumped into commercial banking and accounting, got my CPA and my CFA certifications to learn all I could about business and then I was working in New York City at the time and I had an opportunity to come to Memphis to work with an owner-operator of a real estate business when he was ginning up a tech company. It was kind of like a proprietary Zillow back in the early 2000s. It was a great chance for me to get on the owner-operator side of the business because I kind of knew from my first few years I wanted to be a business owner. So, I just kind of jumped in real estate tech and was learning a lot about real estate and I moved into a neighborhood and bumped into a guy who was a jogger. So, he and I started jogging together. He was in manufacturing, managing plants across the country mechanical engineer by training and he had in high school, a mentor who owned real estate and so he was building wealth through real estate while working his full-time corporate job. And I was working in real estate on a data in business side working with realtors and appraisers on the residential side. So, we had a lot of commonalities, shared some interest, but he kind of told me about what he was doing with his investing portfolio of properties, both multifamily and single-family, I got interested. So, I started doing the same thing on my own. And we would jog together and share war stories and share best practices and really developed a friendship and almost a partnership. So, we decided we wanted to try and do a deal together that neither of us had done. So, to kind of share the risk. We ended up doing a tax sale because we had never bought a tax sale, either of us. And so, we just kind of shared the risk on that and it went well. Then we shared the risk on another one and another one and then we bought a little portfolio together and then we bought a few more together then we started doing some third party management together and fast forward to today we've got several hundred units together, we manage several thousand units together, we've got a brokerage and property management and maintenance company would do some hard money lending. So, we've enjoyed our friendship and business relationship. Don: That's truly amazing. I mean, I think, you know, going on a jog, and then meeting your future business partner that you're going to do so many things with, it's just outstanding. And that's why people always say that when you are trying to get into real estate, then you should always say that this is what you're doing to people. Because people are going to tell you something back and they're going to tell you, hey, you should talk to this guy or I've heard about somebody who does that does this and then you get ideas. So, you always gotta talk to people. And that's a great example of how talking to people, getting to know them, listening to them, changes your life in a good way. Douglas: That's a great point. Especially I was laughing about This was somebody the other day, because when I was working in banking when I was working in accounting when I was working in real estate technology, I would tell people that and nobody seemed interested or knew what to talk about. But as soon as I started investing in residential and small multifamily properties, and I would mention that everybody had either thought of it or had a friend or a family member who had been an investor at one time, or were thinking about doing it themselves or just buying a house. So, to your point, it just opens up a wealth of conversations and connections, that being a real estate investor and talking about it highly encourage people to do that. Don: Definitely. Now, there's another thing that I want to talk to you about because I just had this conversation with my friend and you just mentioned it that you went to college back in '01 he said, right? Douglas: I wish and I graduated in '96. So, I'm a little older than that. Don: Yeah, so a little bit older. So, this is exactly the time where you're growing up, I believe. I don't know how old you are. If you want to share it. Douglas: I'll be 46 in two weeks. Don: 46. Happy birthday! Here's my question. So, you are growing up at the times where your parents must have told you for the people that were close to you to go to college, right? Get a degree if you want to be successful in life, right? Now, my generation, I'm 30 years old, and I never went to college. So... Douglas: Awesome.  Don: I've been investing in real estate since I'm 23 years old. My background is kind of different because I wasn't growing up in an environment that tells me that I have to go to college because we had the internet so we could hear other people talking. And so, there is the age of information where you could get a book for 10 bucks so you can listen to a podcast for free, right and get all the education you need. So, my question to you, would you recommend going to college in modern times or just jumping right in and just getting an education from a different source? Douglas: If you're entrepreneurial enough, and you have a plan and you have a determination, then yeah, you can do it on your own. There is a lifelong learning component that podcasts, books, resources now are at our fingertips as well. Well, it's just meeting people's mentors and connections. So clearly have learned more since I've been at a school then I learned in school. But for the right person, so for example, I got a master's in accounting. When I was out of school, I worked full time went to school at night, and I got scholarships and the company paid a little bit. So, to get that degree to get that knowledge and earned that credential at a private university cost me $2,000 of my hard-earned money. All the rest of that money came from somewhere else, which was, which was a good lesson that I learned how to do real estate as well. You don't have to go out and spend all your hard-earned money and borrow. There're ways if you can get creative, you use other people's money. So, what I wouldn't suggest for 99.9% of the peopl

DE 26: Tax Strategies and Real Estate Investments with Thomas Castelli   Thomas Castelli is a licensed Certified Public Accountant (CPA) in New York. He is certified in Real Estate Financial Modeling and Tax Strategist. He comprehends that putting resources into real estate, joined with tax strategies and arranging are critical to limiting the taxes and building long term riches. He holds equity positions in several multifamily properties and participated in the syndication of an 82 unit apartment complex as a general partner. All his experience in investing and tax strategies are really helping him in finances. Highlights: Difference Between GP and LP Thomas’ First Investment How Much Money Is Needed To Invest In Real Estate How Many Partners A Partnership Should Contain And How Should The Partnership Split Be.   Connect with Thomas: Email: ThomasCastelli@NewBabyloncapital.com or Thomas.Castelli@WholeCPALLC.com Podcast: Real Estate CPA   - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hey guys! Today I'm going to interview Thomas Castelli, Thomas is a real estate investor. And I think the most interesting thing about him is that he invested in his first real estate deal as a limited partner and that is something that we haven't discussed yet. A lot of people here don't know the difference between a limited partner and a general partner, also known as the sponsor or the syndicator. And today we're going to talk a lot about the difference between these two types of investments and how you can get into real estate as a passive investor with not a whole lot of money and learn a lot about real estate in the process also, while you make money, so that's a great opportunity. And I think it's a very important episode for everybody who is considering to invest in real estate. So, let's get started. Lady: Welcome to the Commercial Real Estate Investing podcast with Don and Eden, where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to off-market strategies. Don: Hey, Thomas, welcome to the show. Thomas: Hey, Don, thanks so much for having me on today. Happy to be here.  Don: Of course. How's your day going so far? Thomas: It's going great. The weather's not too great here in New York. It's been raining for the last few days. But other than that, I can't complain. It's a good day. Don: Yeah. Well, you know, it's only going to get colder from now on, right? Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah, this the one bad thing about living in New York is it could be really hot in the summer and the nineties, and then go all the way down to the teens if not lower, when you move into the winter months.  Don: Well, you know, I live in Florida, we have warm weather all year round. But then in the summer, you got the hurricanes and you got the rain. That's just non stop, and you can't plan anything. And so, you can't go out and do anything because whatever it is you're trying to do. There's going to be rain, and there's going to be sun and there's going to be rain and there's going to be Sun. It's just super annoying. But yeah, I'll take that over New York every day of the week.  Don: Yeah, well, I would too. I don't blame me. Okay, so, tell us a little bit about who you are, how you got into real estate and then what you're doing currently. Thomas: My name is Tom Castelli. I'm a CPA. I work for a company called the Real Estate CPA as a tax strategist and I primarily do tax consulting for real estate investors. So, I help them come up with a plan to minimize their tax liability each year. The super exciting job keeps me really in touch with real estate investors and what's currently going on. Outside of that, I am an investor myself. I got started as an investor on the LP side back in 2015 when I started to make a few Limited Partnership investments with someone who basically would become my mentor. I made my first LP investment in a 48 unit apartment building Class D apartment building and got full renovation in Columbus, Ohio. That was pretty exciting. And from there, I started learning more and more about syndications. That ultimately culminated in me participating as a general partner in the syndication of an 82 unit apartment complex in Jacksonville, Florida, actually down in your state.  On the Investment side what led me to syndication though was when I was in college, I was pretty much saying, ‘Oh, I don't want to like live the normal nine to five life.’ I need a way out of this and start researching real estate, you know, the Rich Dad, Poor Dad, all that. And then eventually it led me to a meeting of RIA meeting out here on Long Island, and I met a syndication group and I went to their three-day seminar where they went through syndication A to Z, and I fell in love with syndication. That's where I met my mentor. And that's the person who I started investing with on the LP side, and it all led up to that eight units GP. Since that point, I haven't been too active. I've made a few investments in LP since then, but at this point, just kind of waiting for us to be putting this property on the market. Don: I know we already discussed that on previous shows. You know the difference between LP and GP, but I'm sure some people are going to listen to that, and they're not going to understand really what we're talking about if they're new to all the terms. First of all, I like it that your first deal was an LP so you invested with somebody else, and then we're going to talk about that, but first, how about you give us a brief explanation about the difference between limited partner and a general partner and then the way that a syndication process works. Thomas: Yeah. So, the limited partner and investment, you're the passive investor, you're the silent partner or the money partner some different terms people say. You're investing with the general partner, and you're not taking an active role in the business or the investment. You're just kind of sitting back and collecting your check. I think the biggest aspect for a limited partner when you are investing is to understand who the general partner is, what their track record is, do they have experience with the assets and just have an overall idea of what market you're investing in that can be pretty important. But for the general partner side, the general partner to deal they are responsible for putting the entire deal together from A to Z.  So, it's finding the property, going through the acquisition process, including due diligence, and then ultimately overseeing the property management than any renovation plans you have for the property, that entire processes and ultimately selling it. They're also responsible for raising the capital from investors, the LP’s and making sure that they are handling Investor Relations properly communicating with their investors. They're also responsible for getting the debt financing working with a bank or perhaps to Fannie/Freddie or mortgage brokers, however, we're going to go about getting that loan, that is their role. They're pretty much responsible for the entire thing, which is why as a limited partner, when you don't have that control when you don't have that management, say, it's very important to know who you're dealing with on the general partnership side. Don: Yeah. And I would like to add a few things. So as a limited partner, the advantage is that you're passive and so you don't have to worry about too many things. So, the only time you have to worry about is when you're getting into the deal. You have to do some research, you have to know the market, just like you said, that's pretty much it. You invest the money and you should be getting some nice returns. I always say that if I wanted to retire, I would just invest all my money as a limited partner with other people that I trust and just go to a cruise or something and just have fun forever because you get good returns. You could get, I would say 15%. It's pretty normal to get on a yearly basis. If you know who you're investing with, and you have experienced and you could even get a 20% return on an IRR based on for five years. So that's the advantage as a limited partner.  The advantage for the general partners, also known as the sponsors of the deal, is that essentially, they collect money from investors. So, they raise capital, just like you said. Typically, they have to raise about 30% of the purchase price of 20% for a down payment, and then 10%, for CapX, what is known as the repairs, or the implementing of the value add plants or the property. And so, what happens is that they raise the 30% from other people, and they get a split of 30% of the entire deal. So, let's say that they improve the building that's worth 10 million to a point where it's worth 13 million, so they would make 1 million in profit if they get 30%, roughly 1 million, so 900,000. Yeah, you are a CPA. And then that is the reason why you decided to invest as a limited partner because you wanted to keep your day job, right? You wanted to be a passive investor. And you also wanted to get into investing in syndications, right? And learn as much as you can. Thomas: Yeah. One of the things is like when you're first I guess, taking on this investing adventure that some investors go on is it's good to have the experience on the LP side first, because you kind of get to see it from the back end angle, and you experience the entire process from A to Z as an investor from the investor's perspective and you ultimately learn a lot about how to do it if you're looking to be a general partner. So, that's one of the reasons why I started there. Don: Okay, great. So, let's talk about your first investment. The LP. So, the limited partner investment. So how much money did you invest in that deal and how many units was it? Thomas: 48 units in Columbus, Ohio. As an LP, I invested about $10,000 into a deal. It wasn't all that much, my parents invested

In today’s episode of “Commercial Real Estate Investing with Don & Eden” we have guest John Casmon. He’s founded Casmon Capital Group where he primarily invests in Chicago & Cincinnati. Together, he and his business partner/wife have helped families invest in multifamily apartments to create a passive income stream and tax benefits without the hassles of becoming landlords.    In today’s episode, John discusses his partnership and business goals, his big deal in Texas, shares a variety of resources to learn your market & discusses important factors when analyzing a deal. He also explains why multifamily apartments are the main focus of his business strategy, his different types of value adds & views on the mobile home parks asset class.   Highlights:  Importance of Building Relationships How to Analyze Unfamiliar Markets Data Points to Focus On Knowing When to Scale Up   Connect with John: Website: casmoncapital.com Email: john@casmoncapital.com   - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TRANSCRIPTION   00:00 Hey guys, this is Don and my guest today on the show is John Casmon. John is a real estate investor and he's investing primarily in Chicago and Cincinnati and he's in control of over 920 units, which is quite a lot of units. So I'm very excited to have him on the show today because he's one of the most experienced investors out there and I'm also, John was kind enough to share his resources with us. So at the end of the episode I'm going to read a few websites that you want to check out in case you want to do some research and find out some more information about the multifamily deal you're looking at. So we're always happy to give you guys that information. So stay tuned. 00:46 Welcome to the Commercial Real Estate Investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to off-market strategies. 01:03 Hey John, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me on. 01:07 Of course. I think you deserve it. I heard you own or in control of over 920 units. 01:14 Yeah. Were general partners of 920 units across the country, primarily in Texas, Florida, South Carolina and Cincinnati. And continue to grow that and working with investors. So excited about everything. 01:27 That's great. But I know when you started it wasn't always this way, so now you're a full time real estate investor, but when you started, you were doing that part time. I know you're investing since 2012 if my records are right. 01:41 Yeah, absolutely. We started off part time. I started with the house hack. We had a two unit property, lived in one unit, rented out the other and you know, from there we bought a three unit building. A couple of years later we bought an eight unit building the next year and just continued to build the portfolio. And eventually it got to the point where we were running out of our own money and we're talking to a lot of people who were interested in investing in real estate but didn't have the time to really learn everything that we had learned in the us on their own. And at that moment we kind of realized, Hey, there might be a great opportunity to partner with these people where we can bring them in along side of us on deals. They can be passive, they can, get all the, you know, the income that comes from being an investor without having to actually be the landlord and take care of the property themselves. So that kind of really opened us up to different ways of expanding and growing our portfolio. Yeah. So when you say we, who exactly are you talking about? Oh, my wife. You know, I don't make any decisions without checking in with the boss. 02:41 Yeah. Just checking in with the boss. That's, that's true. So when you, when you first made the transition to real estate, I know you were working in a different job, a day job and then how, how did your wife take it? So how, how was she with, with that idea? 02:57 Yeah, I mean it's the, it was truly a partnership thing. So it wasn't like I had to convince her or anything like that. I know some folks go to those situations, but you know, we were always aligned on the lifestyle we wanted to create a lifestyle, we wanted to live the environment we went to raise our kids in. So as we had conversations about how to create it, real estate was a big part of it. So that first property, I mean we lived in that property, lived in one unit. We lived in our property for seven years. So I mean we lived basically in an apartment for seven years in and built equity and continue to grow. So that was something we were always aligned on. And I think that's really important. If you're going to invest in real estate you want to make sure your partner is on board with that. 03:38 So she was completely aligned with it. We had our roles in the business, so she did certain things. I did certain things and we kind of use that to grow the portfolio. So we were both, you know, doing it kind of on the side and we have a smaller portfolio, you can do that. I think when you get to the point where you really want to scale and you want to start working with other people, that's where you start to have to shift roles, responsibilities and dedicate more time into the business. Yeah. So when did you feel that things are getting bigger and that you, you're, you just scaled up a little bit? You know, we bought the eight unit building and that was our first commercial property. We hired a professional management company to over see it and we're still pretty involved in the process from an asset management standpoint. 04:22 But going through that process gave me the confidence and, you know, the readiness to start moving forward into some of the larger properties. So I think for me, you know, cutting the teeth on something that was commercial but not overwhelming, that gave us a chance to learn to work with property management companies, understand the way they work, the way they underwrite, the way they manage and just really take that experience and they use that to kind of build and take the next step into kind of larger commercial properties. Okay. So yeah, let's talk about that. So when you're saying large commercial properties- I'm assuming you're talking about multifamily units over 80 units or 90 units, right? Apartment buildings. That's right. Yeah. So tell us about the first deal that you had of, of that scale. Yeah, so I mean, we were looking for properties for awhile and knew just like now the market's been kinda tight and we were looking for properties where we could deliver strong returns for our investors and we're having a hard time finding it. 05:23 So we ended up partnering with a friend, a gentleman that I had met and he was in a similar boat, but we just kinda had a conversation and I expressed that if he found something that made sense, wanting to love to review it, and if the deal looked good, we'd be interested in coming on as partners and maybe bringing some of our partners on as well. Because at that point point we had been talking to investors for a little bit of time and you know, they were kind of getting itchy and wanted to get in on a deal that all the great things we have been telling them about multifamily investing and we were struggling to find that deal. So we ended up partnering with that investor and that was 192 units out in San Antonio, Texas. Oh, that's a big, that's a big property. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So it was a win, win situation because that was the big property for them as well. Right. So that was their first very large apartment deal where they kind of word the, the leads. So we came in as general partners and we help them with you know, kind of some of the marketing from the investor relations and you know, that was kind of our foray into the larger commercial apartment space. 06:29 Okay. So do you feel like you got into the deal because your investors got itchy or did you actually spot the opportunity there? 06:37 Well, I mean I think it comes down to building relationships first of all. Right. So for us, we would not have done this with just anyone. This was an individual that we had gotten to know over the course of probably about nine months. And you know, we've met him in person, we've sat, we've had dinner with them. We've had various conversations at that time. I had just launched our podcast “Target Market Insights” and he was one of the early guests on this show and it actually came up while we were talking right after we recorded the episode. So, you know, he was someone that we respected, we, we understood how he was looking at deals. He had been a general partner and other deals as well. In a large space. So he had experienced that. He knew what he was doing from that perspective. So I think we, there was a level of comfort with with that individual that gave us comfort and moving forward and, and being a partner there that I don't think we would have had no matter what our investors were thinking or looking for. 07:33 Okay. So let's talk about the numbers for that deal. So what was the purchase price? Find my ask and, and what was the value at plan and everything there? 07:41 Yeah, 16 point $1 million purchase price. We invested a little more than a million bucks into renovations. Value adds a couple things. Interior innovations on that property. We changed up the exterior landscape changed out the siding. There was a who's that? There was a, a second area that was kind of like a hot tub at one point. I, I don't know why, but it was a hot tub and we actually fill that in and made a kind of a barbecue pit area. So looking at different amenities that we can add. We added in private fenced in yards for the first floor units and then we added some technology packages as well. 08:24 I see. Okay. So basically you focused on improving the lifestyle and the, comfortability and the feeling of, of the people that are going to live in that, 08:33 The apartment, r

In today’s episode, we have the pleasure of having Benjamin Inman, founder of Inman Equities. Benjamin brings over 20 years of experience and has become successful via hard work and strategy. He has a really good reputation in the real estate market due to hard work, consistency, and persistence.  Benjamin touches on his beginnings into the wonderful world of real estate, his lesson on how important it is to have deals in writing and the difference between the two markets he’s involved in like buying a property of over 200 units and buying properties on a smaller scale. He also discusses the importance of being involved from start to finish with the deal on the table along with the other partners or investors involved.    Highlights: Benjamin’s Career Briefs And An Unexpected Experience About His Very First Deal His Tips And Tricks On How To Become Successful How He Grew His Reputation Within The Southeast And Beyond. Details About How, When And Who To Chose As A Business Partner Never Miss Any Details In The Contract Agreement   Connect with Benjamin: Email: binman@inmanequities.com Phone: 615-513-3088 Linkedin: @inmanequities Facebook: @inmanequities Instagram: @inmanequities Twitter: @inmanequities   ------------------------------------------------------- TRANSCRIPTION: Intro: Hey guys! I hope you’re ready for today’s episode. Today I’m going to host Benjamin Inman. Benjamin had been involved in multi-family in the past 20 years and worked and learned under the famous real-estate guru and tycoon Grant Cardone. In this episode, we will talk about the process of understanding that you can do this by yourself and use your connections and knowledge that you’ve acquired during the years. And also, for the first time on the show, we’ll have an investor that invests in institutional properties that are over 200 units. So, these are the bigger deals out there. Today’s episode is very informative, so stay tuned. And on another note, I’d like to remind you to check our website donandeden.com where you can find ways to contact us and connect with us and learn more about who we are, our deals and so on. So yeah, let’s get started and we have a lot to talk about.    Intro: Welcome to the Real Estate Investing Podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to multi-family apartment buildings and off-market strategies. Don: Hey Benjamin! Welcome to the show. How’re you doing today?   Benjamin: I’m good. How are you doing?   Don: I’m doing just fine. So, I know you’ve been doing a lot of work, you’ve been buying properties in the market that everybody’s saying that it’s hard to buy but you’re still finding good deals, and I know you’re buying institutional properties over 200 units. So, I would like for you to tell our audience a little bit about who you are, what you do and how you got into real estate.   Benjamin: To start, I appreciate you for having me on. Always enjoy doing this type of thing. I started my career 18 years ago. Really starting to ground up I was so eager just to get in the business that I actually started as a landscape architect, doing single-family homes and then really just put myself out there because I was always interested in the multi-family space and got introduced to a developer down the Miami, offered a job to me as his corporate landscape architect and I was off to the races. Once I was there, I knew that it was a good opportunity for me. I was always asking a bunch of questions and surrounded myself with the right people in the firm and, so really just utilized that to the best of my abilities just kept growing and building on that from the time I left there until I went to the next shop and then from there just kept building and adding on. Just about all knowledge-based and then 2 years ago I left the last two investors I was working for and started my shop and never looked back. So, we typically have two different focuses. All the stuff that we buy, they are all in the multi-family space. So we have an institutional arm and we have a smaller bucket that we acquire 50, 76 units, 44 unit properties in and we have the institutional side bucket to where we buy 450 unit portfolios at one time and I do each of those with different partners so I have a partner for the big stuff and have partners for the smaller stuff. That’s our way of diversifying. The big deals are good in their way, the small deals, they are good in their way. The small deal’s cash load typically a little bit better than the big stuff. So that’s really in a nutshell, our focus and we pretty much focus throughout the southeast.   Don: So, I know you are buying large properties and small properties and you’ve been doing that for the past two years but your career had spawned for a lot more. So, I would think that you working with big investors, I know you’ve worked with Grant Cardone, Cardone Capital and I’m from Florida so it’s impossible not to know who Grant Cardone is if you live in. So, I know you’ve worked with these investors. So how does working with people of that caliber helped you understand the market and got you to the place where you are at right now?   Benjamin: You have to understand their way of thinking because you can ask ten investors what the criteria are and you may get ten very different answers. Each deal that you decide that identified to take down, you pretty much know which of those deals or you should know which of those deals fit the personality box for your potential partner or partners. And so, I kind of cherry-pick which deals I want to share to which partners based on that knowledge and it’s worked out well. I think the challenge a lot of people have is, they have a database of, let’s just say they give you a deal flow, but they aren’t successful on either how to start or if they do know where to start, they are having trouble executing because I don’t think they put that strategy to work because I think that’s a very standard not only what your partner’s personality type is as it relates to, you know, in the investment criteria in the properties that look for but also, knowing what their individual bandwidth is. For me, I’ve had different partners that I use for different properties because I know that this partner A actually get so many deals done in the time and if I have another deal come across my plate that makes sense, I have to find another partner that’s similar in personality type and criteria wise as well but then I’ve got to do the deal with them just because I don’t want to overload anyone partner including myself and not be able to take a deal down. And so, really just being very strategic about which partner I chose to bring in to which deal is just as important as knowing the investor types that come into the deals from the LP standpoint. I know what their personality types are because you have some 50,000 and some 25,000 check writers and then I have guys that are 500 and million dollars check writers on every deal that I put in front of them. So, different people and it depends on overall equity sides of the deal and what their percentage ends up being allocated out to. So, there’s a lot of those variables that come into play when making a decision, of course, but yeah, it just really comes down to knowing your individual investors.   Don: Yeah. So, when you say you’re partnering up with people on different deals, so I assume that you’re getting the deal so the process works in a way that you’re talking to the brokers, outsourcing your deals and then you find a good deal and so you raise the money already you know your investors. And so, you want to partner up with people in the local market where the deal is at so that these people would implement the value add a plan or what exactly is the other partner doing in each one of your deals?   Benjamin: Yeah so it's a good question. So, most of my partners are either in south Florida or in Texas or Charlotte, North Carolina. So, you know the partners that I’ve had deals with aren’t necessarily in the local market where a specific asset is located. I wouldn’t say it’s a bad strategy, that’s just not our strategy. Mainly because all the markets that we’re currently in, I’m knowledgeable of those markets and already have boots on the ground in many cases whether that’s construction companies or just different vendors like flooring vendors, paint vendors, roofing vendors you name it. We already have those relationships resources in place. I don’t look at that way with having a particular partner being based in a specific geographic area and that’s not what I use to base my decision on but, for a different person like me, that’s not a bad strategy, that just hasn’t been our strategy.   Don: Yeah. So, what is your strategy, how do you choose your partners?   Benjamin: It’s just based on their criteria, as well as balancing that with knowing what their internal bandwidth is, meaning that, when we do a deal together with a partner, we hopefully would share roles 50-50. That’s just an ideal way of doing it. But if that partner has a one-person or two-person staff, there are only so many properties that I can deal with that particular partner, maybe one at a time. So, if I have another deal that comes across my plate while I’m working on a particular deal at the current moment, then I’ve got to find a different partner to do that deal with because I don’t want to slow down the process or progress of the other partner. They have got their stable of investors. I have my stable investors. Some partners, their investors can only invest in one deal at the time and they need a 30 or 60-day break thereafter to replenish their stock capital. So, that’s really how I look at it, just knowing my particular partners and what their bandwidth is and really what their stapled investors look like.    Don: I see. Okay, so let me ask you this; what kind of processes are undergoing in your business right

Today’s episode guest is Bill Ham- a real estate guru & mentor with 14 years of commercial real estate experience based in Atlanta, GA. He owns and operates Phoenix Residential Group, LLC and Phoenix Residential Management, LLC. Learn how Bill walked away from being a corporate pilot to create a large portfolio of multifamily assets.  Bill discusses how he started his journey into the world of real estate, how he sourced for his first deal, and how he was able to switch from the single-family apartment to the multi-family sector. Learn what to look out for when sourcing for deals and how he teaches his students to read the profit & loss statement.  Highlights: Benefits Of A Multi-family Over Single-family Apartments? Key Points when Sourcing a Deal Thoughts on the Future of the ‘C’ space Predictions for the Real Estate Market   Connect with Bill: Email: Bill@phoenixresgroup.com   ----------------------------------------------------- TRANSCRIPTION   Don: Hello, dear listeners. I hope you guys are enjoying the episodes and the content we give. Remember if you want to get in touch with us, you’re always welcome to do so and send us an email at hello@donandeden.com. So please do, we want to know how you feel and always appreciate the feedback. Today, I’m going to interview Bill Ham. Bill is a multifamily investor and mentor and one of the people I consider a multi-family guru. I would say his strength is his ability to see the hidden things most people are going to miss while underwriting and his profound understanding of the real estate market that enables him to predict market trends and shifts. Also, on a personal note, Bill and I have already established a relationship in the past, and I’m very happy to have him on the show. So without further ado, let’s start. Intro: Welcome to the real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden, where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with underwriting attention to multi-family apartment buildings and off Market strategies.  Don: Hey Bill, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you here.  Bill Ham: Thank you, good to be here.  Don: Yes, so, I know you're one of the best deal analysts that out there, So you can analyze a deal better than most people that I've ever met.  Bill Ham: I appreciate that.  Don: We've had a few conversations in the past where you've helped me analyze deals.  Bill Ham: Yeah A few of them.  Don:  I know your ability and how good you are; And so I would appreciate it if you could talk a little bit about yourself and your background and how you started your real estate career. Bill Ham: I have been in this business for about fifteen years now, and I was a corporate pilot by trade, and one of my very first deal was a duplex, and the duplex was making $300 a month cash flow. I had saved up $10,000 from my career, and I walked away from Aviation one duplex ten thousand bucks in $300 a month in cash flow; this was in ‘05. So headed into the hundred-year recession that was so bad, but I survived it, and I don't recommend everyone do that. By the way, I was 28 years old at the time, you know, no family, no children, and so it was a little bit easier for me to make that sort of commitment, but that's what I realized I needed to do is commit and focus and that has been the number one success trait that I think I have and have noticed in other successful people; the ability to focus. That's how I got started, and then just kind of climb the ladder, flip houses for a while and then I did a 9 unit and then a 27 units and a 20 units and a 44 unit then a 152, so I grew I didn't go from  2 to 100, I mean, I started from the smaller assets and then built out of it a pretty big portfolio over the years. Don:  Let’s talk about that transition from doing single families and flipping homes, which is how a lot of people start, and it's how I started in real estate and then the transition into multifamily, you said something about nine units, please tell us more about that transition. Bill Ham: I went in and heard someone speak about multi-family, someone who is no longer in the business. I listen to a lecture by this individual and I was hooked on it when he started talking about the economy of scale and know so much easier to manage and to have more units under one roof and I knew from a business perspective that was the future and that you can flip houses and do single-family and that’s great, but you're never going to get the zeros behind that model, then you're going to get in larger commercial especially multi-family. That was my thought, I needed to go bigger out more, and I did, and I did a lot of creative financing at the beginning, lots of seller financing, a lot of lease options after I had built a small portfolio. That's when I got into syndication, which is bringing on partners and raising down payment money from other investors, that’s how I made the transition, nice and slow. Don: that’s exactly how I feel about this, When you flip homes, you make good money and you have a very good lifestyle, you can travel the world, you could buy fancy cars, and you can make a really good money, money that most people don’t make, but the problem about this is that you don't really create a passive income or a steady passive income that you can retire when you're 35 or 40, and that's very achievable with Multi-Family. Was that the mindset was that what guided you to move forward from flipping houses? Bill Ham: It was ultimately, I looked at all of the large commercial investors and owners, and none of them own houses, and so I thought, why do the big people not own lots of houses? You know, why do they own commercial as supposed to single-family and the reason is because it's a business and it's easier if you're trying to grow and operate a business, your product really should be in a commercial space, but If you're trying to do a side business, you know a little bit extra money here and there, then single families are a great way to go.  But if you're really trying to build a big portfolio, for example i can manage a   Hundred Apartments at the same time you can manage 10 houses, the time in the economy of scale is just not in the single-family market and then I always use a sentence that multifamily was built to be an investment model, houses were built to be someone's home.  So multifamily makes money by Design, houses make money when you steal. You gotta go out and steal the value on a house for the numbers to work out for it to be a rental property because it was never built to be so, but multi-family is. Don: Yeah, that’s exactly how I started, me and my partner, you know, we got that Steal's on single families, and then we were able to acquire them and great wealth, but we noticed as we scaled up at that it's not scalable, that’s exactly the difference, it going to create nice passive income for us, but it's not going to be quiet and like free really because we still have a lot to do with during which includes fixing and in doing some other things, maintenance  especially; it's not scalable. So, what I realized recently is that it's not just about an apartment, it’s more about units. It doesn't matter what type of commercial property you buy, you could buy self storages and have a hundred units there, or you could buy a mobile home park and have 50 units there, or you could buy a multi-family and have a hundred Apartments. It's all the same thing. You were right; you buy a business, I agree completely.  Bill Ham: Yeah, it's whatever asset class makes sense to you, whatever you enjoy, what you know your investors want, That's the model. So mobile homes are great, storage is great; I just do apartments. It's not because apartments are better than one of the others, it's just what I do, and I have a lot of friends that make money on mobile home parks, have a lot of friends make money in storage but I don't and that doesn’t mean all of those aren’t assets. Don: Definitely, you got to choose and become the best at what you do. So when you are at your peak as far as your multifamily portfolio, what was the biggest amount of properties that you held? As a general partner [a GP]? Bill Ham: yeah, have held over a thousand units, 1000 unit at the peak of my career, and I have actually been selling off Over the last two years and am down now to about 400 units that am holding currently. Don: Okay, so you sold 600 units in the past three years.  Bill Ham: Yes roughly. Don: so let's dig into that, Why are you selling properties right now? Is it about the economy, the recession, or the overheated Market?  Bill Ham: Not really. It's not about the economy or Market. It's more about Market cycle and understanding the rise and the fall of the market cycle and what Market cycle you're in; this is a question I get a lot of times , are we going into a recession or are we going into a down cycle, so we shouldn’t buy real estate; No no, that's  a complete misunderstanding of Market Cycles. If everybody only bought real estate in a recession and never buy real estate any other time, then everyone would go home for 5 years, and the whole real estate industry would collapse, and that obviously doesn’t really occur, and that's one of the greatest things about multi-family, and that it's a cash flow model.  The value only matters twice, when the time you buy and when you sell. So as long we get the debt, that allows us an Exit strategy on the other side of the upcycle. You can hang onto multifamily through a recession as long as you pay the right price, and you get long-term debt.  I have sold over the last couple years is because we were going through an upcycle and in an  upcycle you make more money using a different strategy than a buy and hold strategy, and in an up circle, as the values are rising quickly, that's when you want to go in and make renovations, your value-added props; That's what I've been doing over the last couple years, buying a distressed asset, going in t

In today’s packed episode of ‘Multifamily Real Estate Investments with Don and Eden’, we’re joined by Dave Zook- a successful business owner and an active real estate investor in sectors such as multifamily apartments, self-storage, and ATMs. He’s also written a book on syndication “8 Real-Life Lessons for Syndicators and Their Investors.”  In today’s episode, Don & Dave discuss the secrets to success, the do’s and don’t of the business, and the steps needed to have a strong foundation & longevity. Dave also touches on how a tax problem led to him dive deeper and deeper into the world of real estate, what he learned from watching his father and gives us an insight on this family modular storage sheds and garage business.  Highlights: -Discusses his focus on Multifamily Apartments, Self-Storage, and ATMs -Explains how he was ‘Chased into Real Estate.’ -What’s the Modular Storage & Garage Business? -Current Projects & plans for the future   Contact Dave: Email:  info@therealassetinvestor.com  His Book: “8 Real-Life Lessons for Syndicators and Their Investors” ----------------------------------- TRANSCRIPTION    [00:00:08] Hello, everybody. I hope you guys are excited for another episode where you learn a lot about commercial real estate and real estate in general. I want to say personally that we are so grateful to have you guys as listeners and we work hard on these shows and try our best to give you quality content with as little fluff as possible. Doing this isn't always easy and it requires a lot of time and energy. I'd like to ask you to give back by checking our new Website, which is being developed by my partner Eden. He's the best at it. You can find ways to connect with us, learn about us and see what kind of properties we invest in. So the Web site address is DonandEden.com. Again, that's DonandEden.com. No shocker there. And you can always send us an email at hello@donandedend.com. It's Hello@donandeden.com. So thank you very much. We appreciate the feedback and you can take the time to do that. Our guest today on the show is Dave Zook. Dave invests in many asset classes as well. And his main focus is multifamily and self-storage assets, which is an asset class that picked up tremendously. So let's hear more about it.    [00:01:33] Welcome to the Real Estate Investing Podcast with Don. Any time where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to multi-family apartment buildings and off-market strategies.    [00:01:51] Hey, Dave, welcome to the show.    [00:01:53] Hey, it's good to be on your show.    [00:01:56] Thank you very much. How's your day been going so far?    [00:01:58] So far, so good. It's been very busy. But looking forward to talking to you and your listeners.    [00:02:06] Yeah. Thank you. So, yeah, busy is always good. So does first of all, so that we get to know you. I know a little bit about you, but our listeners don't. So give us some background and tell us a little bit about yourself.    [00:02:18] So I was born into a very successful entrepreneurial family, very fortunate there. I grew up in our family business. It was a modular building business, still active in that business, along with my three brothers and my dad.    [00:02:34] I saw my dad invest in real estate as I was growing up and I saw him taking the capital that he was making from his business and put them in real estate. He was buying arms and land and as single-family homes, I saw him sort of self manage some of the single-family homes. And I just realized at an early age that I was not a path that I was interested in being on. So I started investing in businesses and started a couple of businesses.    [00:03:06] I partnered in a couple of businesses.    [00:03:08] I sold a few and got to the point number of years ago where I was doing well and I had to pay a big, big tax bill.    [00:03:21] At that point, I realized after doing some studies and reading a lot of Robert Kiyosaki his content, I realized that real estate not only can be a real wealth-building tool in the form of cash flow and appreciation, but it can also be a real tax protection vehicle. And that caught my attention. So I went from not wanting to have any real estate to want and all I could get my hands on. And the timing just so sort of aligned that the timing was great to be a buyer. And that was coming out in 2009. It started to allow timely real estate in 2010, 11. And so the timing was great and got myself in a position where I went from paying a half a million dollars a year in tax to pay zero federal tax and not so that was sort of the start. People asked me how I got and I got involved in real estate. I always tell em I got chased into it for tax reasons.    [00:04:20] That's very interesting. So I already have a lot of questions to ask you about what you said. So the first question I have is what exactly is that modular business? So what does your company do? What do you guys do?    [00:04:30] So we build modular outbuildings, modular garages, and not necessarily homes.    [00:04:36] But think about this. So you as our customer, you're getting up in the morning, going to work. We put in with a modular two-bay, two-story garage and we get to work. And when you come home from work, you're ready to pull a car into your brand new car to the bay, two-story modular garage, which is a ton of them all over the country.    [00:05:03] Nice to see you guys also. You manufacture them and you deliver them.    [00:05:06] We do. So we're one of the few companies here in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, that kind of focus on retail. We've got some other. This is kind of the hub of the modular storage sheds and garage business, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. And so there's a bunch of different builders in this area. But we sort of found our niche and that is we build. But we're also the retail retailer. So most of the other builders in the county are, you know, primarily wholesale sell into and that network of dealers. And they may have 5 or 10 percent of their business may be local or retail. Yeah, we're just the opposite. We're 90 percent retail and 10 percent wholesale.    [00:05:52] So you're able to offer better prices, better prices.    [00:05:56] We control the service quality. We're the only person you're dealing with. So you come into our facility, you get to tour the plant, you get to see firsthand where the more the buildings get built. You're dealing with our salespeople and we bring the building out to you. And it's a one-stop-shop.    [00:06:15] It's very understandable why you guys are so successful because you have a great model. And it brings me to talk about the next thing that I wanted to ask you or not even ask more of a statement. So, you know, I talked with my friends and we always talk about business. And so we figured out that it doesn't matter what you do, if you're going to be successful, you're going to end up in the real estate. So we're all becoming real estate investors.    [00:06:39] We have no choice but to interact with real estate at some level.    [00:06:44] Yeah. If you are successful, then that's what I figured out. You have no choice whether you made your money in retailing. You made your money in. I don't know. Developing something or like like a patent or an idea. You're going to end up making, you know, investing or parking that money in real estate. And I think that's what your father understood.    [00:07:00] But he probably didn't understand how to scale it up or how to make it work for you instead of working in it. So tell us a little bit more about your father's experience and what was going on there.    [00:07:12] You know, it worked out quite well for him. I mean, he bought farms and land and single-family homes and, you know, 18, 15, 18, 20, 25 years later, I helped him transfer some of those farms that he bought and ten thirty-one, you know, ten thirty-one. Those farms there were kind of sitting there not making any sense, but they did have a ton of appreciation and you know, 15, 20 years in land value, in land value.    [00:07:39] So I then helped him rule those farms into multifamily apartments back soon after the recession. And we're in the process now of selling one of those apartment buildings. We're supposed to close tomorrow. Wow. And it's going to work out quite well for him.    [00:07:58] So, you know, being able to get in, you know, the ground level on the front end and then seeing all that appreciation and turnaround into and rolling into an apartment building at the right time and to realize some more appreciation, it's gonna work out well for him.    [00:08:12] Yeah. I haven't met a lot of people that invest in real estate for the long term, and we're not successful. I mean, maybe before the crash, people that, you know, we're buying a lot of properties, right, Dan? But, you know, and any other scenario, I don't see how, you know, where the compounding interest and the appreciation of real estate. I don't see how you could lose long term. So what exactly you're doing right now in real estate?    [00:08:38] So we've done we've bought a ton of multifamily over the last couple of years. We've accumulated well over 3000 units. I've syndicated most of those. I started out buying multi-family apartments on my own because I had a tax problem. Turns out there are a lot more people like myself that have tax problems that we're looking to place capital and didn't have the connections to do it. So what a lot of multi-family apartments, I haven't bought any for the last 12 months, the very last apartment building we bought up and I believe last November. So, yeah, it hasn't been real busy on an on the multi-family apartment stage, but we have accumulated quite a lot of self-storage in the last two or three years and still are OK.    [00:09:30] So.    [00:09:31] So between the apartments, self-storage, and A.T.M. machines, that's kept us quite busy. We're now the sixth-largest A.T.M operator

After successfully having a career in the restaurant industry, Gino Barbaro became increasingly interested in the opportunities that investing in multi-family units could bring and the financial freedom one could attain. After conversations with his friend, Jake Stenziano, Gino and him decided to form a business partnership founding their real estate education company, Jake & Gino. Gino Barbaro is an author, real estate investor, and entrepreneur who is the co-founder of the real estate company Jake & Gino. Currently, they are in control of 1,400 units and are passionate about mentoring others to follow their long-term wealth strategies.   In this episode of Multifamily Real Estate Investments with Don and Eden, Gino will share his unique story and path that led him to multifamily real estate investing. He also will talk about the importance of the right mindset into becoming involved in real estate syndications and why having the right mindset is so important.     Highlights:  Gino’s Beginnings in Real Estate  Why Gino Decided to Not Only have a Career in the Restaurant Industry Forming a Partnership Importance of Mindset  Current Projects and Future Outlook   How to Connect with Gino Website: https://jakeandgino.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jakeandgino Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jakeandgino/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Transcription Hey guys, I'm very excited to tell you about our new website DonandEden.com. We have put a lot of hours into making the website very accessible, beautiful, and comfortable. You could find ways to contact us for a variety of options if you would like to network, we always want to hear new stories and get to know you better. We would displace some of the past deals we were involved with, you could learn from each of those deals. The important lessons we have also experienced on the website, you would be able to invest with us on our future deals if passive investors, and even as general partners. Today, Don will interview a person who is very dear to both of us, and his name is Gino Barbaro. Gino is the part of the famous duo Jake and Gino who is in control of over fourteen hundred units. Gino will share his story and the path that led him to real estate investing as well as the right mindset you need to be able to do this. Also at the end of the episode, Don and Gino will discuss one of our deals that are coming up, and we are very excited about the development of 28 units in Hollywood, Florida.  So stay tuned and enjoy the episode.  Welcome to the real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden, where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to multifamily apartment buildings and off-market strategies.  Hey, Gino welcome to the show. How are you doing today? I'm doing really good. Thanks for having me on. Of course, I'm honored. If anybody, I'm honored to have you on the show it's going to be you the person that helped me so much in my career and developing myself as a real estate investor. I've learned so much from you. So I'm very honored as I mentioned. Thank you for putting the time to do this. Thank you. Yes. So you are a very accomplished man, and it seems like your whole life is about doing and creating. So I want you to tell us a little bit about your career how it started and what currently drives you.  Well, my biggest accomplishment, I think, is being a father of six children.  That is by far the most important thing to me, and that's the reason, believe or not why I got into real estate because I was in a tough business. I was in the restaurant business, and it just took a lot of time.  It took a lot of energy, a lot of effort, a lot of long hours and a lot of long weekends working on the holidays- it was difficult, and I was the son of an immigrant. So that's what I thought everyone did. I mean, I was working hard, but I didn't feel fulfilled, and I seemed like I was always away missing those important things with my family. So I was back in 2008, the Great Recession came in, and I was making pretty good money. The restaurant and everything changed, and I said to myself I need to go on a different path. I need to find something different, and I already had a job. So I didn't get into a residential real estate. I didn't get into fixing flips. I tried to get to the multifamily, and I think that was the saving grace me.  Try and get into a multifamily business, buy properties still have the restaurant, but do this on the side and make some extra money because as to have a large family it's a lot of mouths to feed. That was my priority to do something where I can get a little bit of extra passive income on site. And over the years from 2008 to this point continue to buy. Continue to grow. I just got fortunate enough that back in 2016 of March I left the restaurant and I dedicated my life full time to real estate.     That's beautiful. So you decided to focus on multifamily whereas other investors typically when they start they try to focus on single families because they have the conception that this is the safest thing to do and that was our conception when we started doing business in real estate.   But you challenged that and so you tackled multifamily right from the beginning. So tell us a little bit about that? How was it? How difficult was it to get into that arena?   Well,  in the beginning, everyone believes what they think. If you believe it's easier to get into single families, that's what you're going to believe. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Everyone knows how to buy a home so they think, hey single family's easy I can get into it I've done it before.  Everyone hears the word multifamily commercial, and they start shaking their boots, and they think of commercial financing, and real estate is a team sport. And for me, I didn't want to have another job. I didn't want to fix and flip a home. I mean, I love that process, it's a lot of fun. But once you think about all the hours and the time that you need to do a house, the capital gains, the risk factor, and where you are in the market cycle. All of a sudden you've done all that work, and then you've got to go and repeat it; it didn't seem like it was a really good strategy for me. I wanted something that would have at least residual income. I wanted something more I built long term wealth. Yeah, I wanted something where I could have the capital gains to avoid tax benefits there. I want something where I could build a business where it was scalable. So if you're thinking about buying single-family homes take a step back and say to yourself, how is it going to be when I have ten or eleven or twelve houses spread out all over the city. They're all different. It's going to be harder to manage every single one of them if I've got ten homes and three of them are vacant. That's a big vacancy. As Jake and I started on our twenty-five-year property they were all in one location. I was working full time. I could manage these part-time at the very beginning, and it was easier because they're all in one location. There was one landscaping bill. There was one garbage bill. There was one utility bill. There was one roof there. So it was just easier for me. There was an economy a scale thing. There were scalability factors and all those other factors that I've mentioned. It just made more sense.  Yeah. Also when you flip a home it feels like a job.   you make good money. I mean I've done that before, and you make good money. I get a good day you're placing your time so that you can earn money. So it's a good job, but essentially it's a job. It doesn't create residual income for you as far as multifamily does. And also I mean you could get there it’s not scalable, but it's possible. I mean it's possible to hold 20 single families and make residual income, and welfare. But it's not as easy and as convenient so I can relate.  Well, I think the problem is most people like that don't mean effect. It's so much more rewarding to actually buy a house fix it and then flip it three months later and get paid. It's a great feeling right, that's a transaction. It's a lot harder.  using my immigrant background to be a farmer plant the seed water the seed weed the garden take care of it let it grow and wait six months and pray that it doesn't rain hardly ever hail. There's a lot of risks involved that's an entrepreneur's journey because you're holding on and you're delaying the gratification.  Whereas I think single-family homes you're fixing the flipping it's a different process it's a different mindset. You're going to get into multifamily think of yourself as an entrepreneur. You think of yourself as someone who's solving problems for tenants. And the more tenants and problems you can solve the bigger portfolio, the more money you are going to make and the more as you scale bigger and gains the more property and more units the more cost savings you're going to have the more revenue generator rate are you going to have and that's how you start becoming really successful in this business.  Yeah, I agree. So you've entered the multifamily business. I mean a few years back so it's not like you've been doing that for 30 years while you were in the restaurant business. So how did your life change ever since you got into multifamily.  Well I mean for me, the best thing was I went to coaching school. I became a life coach because I didn't know what I wanted right.  I mean, I think the most important thing that everyone on this call has to figure out is to keep becoming clear with our lives, what is the clarity in your life? I didn't want to work twelve hours a day doing more at a job that I didn't like anymore. Now I'm working just as hard, but I'm doing something that I feel fulfilled in, and to me, it's not a job.   I don't even know what day it is today, to be honest with you. I mean the weekends to me are just like any other day or whenev

Todd Dexheimer is a multifamily investor and syndicator and has been investing in multi-family units since 2012. A former high school industrial tech teacher, he began investing in real estate as well during the recession of 2008-2009. Due to the hardship to acquire loans, he began to flip homes - acquiring a solid rental portfolio before becoming involved in real estate syndications.  In this episode of Multifamily Real Estate Investments with Don and Eden, Todd will discuss his first deal to transitioning from a single-family to multifamily investor. He also will outline his perceptions of the state of the market due to the talk of a looming recession. Todd also discusses what exactly he looks for in markets when investing in real estate and the types of real estate he chooses to invest in depending on what the current market outlook is.     Highlights:  Todd’s Beginnings in Real Estate  Transitioning from One Career to Real Estate -Making the Jump Full time  Are We Headed for a Recession? Where to Invest Current Projects and Future Outlook   How to Connect with Todd W: VentureDProperties.com E: Todd@venturedproperies.com Coaching & Mastermind: coachwithdex.com --------------------------------------------------------- Transcription Hey guys. Today I'm hosting Todd Dexheimer. Todd is a multifamily investor and syndicator and he had been investing in multi-family since 2012. Today we're going to talk about Todd's first deal to transition from a single-family to multifamily investor and the state of the market due to chatter of a looming recession.  Welcome to the Real Estate Investing Podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to multi-family apartment buildings and off-market strategies.  Hey Todd, welcome to the show. How are you doing today?  I'm doing well. Thanks for having me.  Of course. Yes, so tell us a little bit about your day what are your plans for the near future.  Well for the day or the future that's a big difference.  Right. How about we start from there and then we take it to the future I know you say you're going to be traveling to Europe right.  Yeah. So, today I've got a couple of things I've got - I'm in the third round of a property we're looking at purchasing. And so I've got the call with the seller. So we'll see how that goes. I'm very hopeful to be getting this property and then I'm also redlining a contract that I've got an office building under contract. So we're doing the redlining which redlining means you're just going back and forth with the seller and making changes and trying to get the contract.  So it's good for both parties so very busy before I go to Europe, but then tomorrow we fly to Germany and spend two weeks with the wife and kids traveling around Europe.  That's nice. I've been to Germany and I'm going to go to Germany in September for personal reasons. So that's nice that you can travel and work and stay busy when you travel. I guess that's the kind of lifestyle that you get when you work in real estate and you work for yourself. Is that right?  Well yeah I mean the benefit of owning your own business and doing real estate as I do, is that I've got time flexibility right? I can do this trip and it's not extremely disruptive and I probably on this trip will have to do some work just because of these properties and hopefully, I get this other property and so hopefully I'll be having two properties that were redlining but can be done from everywhere, I’ve got a computer. So that's a benefit. And again it's time flexibility. We can go when we want to go.  Yes. That's nice. So, tell us a little bit about your real estate business. I know that you have been doing real estate for quite a while now and you've done residential and commercial. You've gone back to commercial, you've gone back to residential, which is kind of different most people they either do this or they do that once they do to transition from residential to commercial then they stay there. I know you had a different story so tell us a little bit about your background and career.  Yeah. So real quick I was a high school industrial tech teacher and started doing real estate while I was teaching full time. I was buying single-family homes and duplexes keeping those as rentals and then kind of ran out of money and availability because at that time at the time in 2008-2009 at the time it was really hard to get loans and especially get them in your personal name you can only get a few and so I could only qualify for about four loans including my house and so I ran out of credit availability I ran out of money and so I started flipping houses. And that allowed me to then buy more rentals and continue on that journey doing flips as well. I finally was able to quit my job and do it full time and just continue doing the flipping and buying - so I was always buying rentals. I was always wanting to build that rental portfolio. The goal from day one when I first started was to get a thousand units thousand multi-family units and of course find one to four-family units would have taken an eternity but I had a business partner at the time and we really focused on these flips and I think definitely over-focused on the flip side and I think he kind of let us towards that which is fine, but that transition just took a little bit longer.  When you say it started with multi-family and went back to single-family and then went back to multi-family we bought a 15 unit building that was a good opportunity that purchased and renovated and capped and the deal went okay. But it wasn't great. And so I think it kind of made us go well let's just keep on doing these smaller deals that are simple and we're comfortable with them. So, we transition back to kind of doing those smaller deals and quite frankly we do the smaller deals while we're doing the multifamily still. And then finally in 2015 my business partner I split up and I took a step back and decided what I want to do and where do I want to take this business, what makes the most amount of sense.  The multifamily made the most sense of building my rental portfolio made a lot of sense. I looked at the numbers quite frankly I looked at the returns on the flips versus the returns on the rentals and the returns on the rentals especially when you take into consideration the principal pay down and the equity that you're building those returns made as much or more. Sounds financially as the returns on the flips and there are a heck of a lot less work way less head damage and way more control. So, the rentals just made way more sense to continue down so that that's that was the transition that was a reason for it. Now again that was in 2015 when I decided all right, this is actually what I'm going to focus on and stop doing the flips.  Yeah, I mean, I hear a lot of people say that when they're doing anything transactional or flipping properties or wholesaling properties then that's good for paying the bills. It's good for saving some capital, but it doesn't make you rich. What makes you rich is equity and that you only get when you are getting into the bigger deals and you buy and hold.  So that's yeah that's my perception. Yeah, flipping can be a good business. I don't want a discount and say it was a bad business and I regret doing it because I don't I mean it was good business and I enjoyed doing it and made a lot of good money doing it was able to get me to where I'm at today.  I wish I would've transitioned out of it may be a little sooner, but it's just a hard business to scale and repeat and you're always counting on needing another deal to make money and if that's what you're counting on all of that, a lot more challenging business. Not that it can't be done and you can't do well and it's just very transactional.  Yeah definitely. So, I want to talk a little bit about everything that you've been doing so you've been focusing on multi-family ever since. So you said 2015 and I can't ignore hearing about   all the talk and chatter on recession and the coming recession and so we've been we've been living in the perfect environment so far in 2019 where unemployment is very low, historically low and people can pay rent and people can live in A-class buildings and everything's good and there are no vacancies, but now everybody keeps talking about a recession. And so how does it affect the multifamily investor especially somebody like you that you've been in the business for quite a while and so how does it affect your acquisitions you're still doing deals you still getting in. I do count on that recession to consider it when you underwrite them.  It is pretty funny. You brought this topic up because I just wrote an article about this and the recession is coming. I don't know well I promise you the recession will have some sort of downturn within the next 20 to 30 years I promise you that, we don't know when the recession is coming. Here are the things everybody since, I got and I got into real estate in  2008 and in 2008 the economy, I mean just crashed right? In 2006, everything was beautiful. In 2008, the stock had fallen and it was still falling. And look in 2008-2009 people said it's going to keep on getting worse we're going into this deep deep recession we're never going to dig out of it. I remember being in, I got my real estate license in 2009 and I remember people saying we will never recover our prices for housing we'll never get back up to where they were in 2006 which is just crazy, ignorant if you think about it. But at the same time, people thought I was going to get worse. Once it started getting better and let's call 2011-2012 things started picking out. It was we're going to see a double-dip recession. The recession is coming we're seeing a double-dip that never happened. In 2015, people said we're going to see a recession in the next 18 months. I remember sitting in a conference in 2015 and that kind of que

Eddie Lorin has twenty years of experience in real estate investing and developing. With a unique approach to investing that focuses more on the tenant rather than the cash flow of the deal, Eddie has successfully been able to invest in real estate and purchase over 15,000 units in more than seventy real estate transactions.  In this episode of Multifamily Real Estate Investments with Don and Eden, Don and Eddie are going to discuss opportunity zones and a different approach of multifamily investing called impact investing. This type of investing is putting the focus on the tenant instead of the profit and the profit usually follows as the tenants tend to stay in the community. Therefore, there are fewer turnovers which are the biggest single expense we could have. Eddie will also discuss shelter and affordable housing development.   Highlights:  Eddie’s Beginnings in Real Estate  Impact Investing  Opportunity Zones Putting the Focus on the Tenant Current Projects and Future Outlook   How to Connect with Eddie W: StrategicRealtyHoldings.com E:  elorin@strategicrh.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- TRANSCRIPTION Hey guys. This is Eden and in today's episode, Don will interview Eddie Lorin. Eddie has 20 years of experience in real estate investing and developing - Don and Eddie are going to discuss opportunity zones and a different approach of multifamily investing called impact investing. This type of investing is putting the focus on the tenant instead of the profit and the profit usually follows as the tenant tends to stay in the community. Therefore, they are fewer turnovers which are the biggest single expense we could have. Eddie will also speak shelter and affordable housing development so I hope you guys enjoy the show.  Welcome to the Real Estate Investing Podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to multi-family apartment buildings and off-market strategies.  Hey Eddie, how are you doing? Welcome to the show.  Pleasure. Nice to be here.  Thank you for participating. So how about you start by telling our viewers and listeners a little bit about yourself and who you are what you've done in your career in real estate.  Well, I've been in the apartment business for over 25 years and I've done over 40,000 units of working for others and working for myself. I specialize in the lower end more low-income housing development and purchasing and rehabbing existing properties and then doing it for a long time. We try to give people a clean safe affordable place to live. Treat them with respect and dignity they stay, they pay and they refer their friends. That's it. Very simple business. We do the right thing all the time over and over again consistently.  Yes, I know that you are an impact investor and also the name of your company. So tell us more about where you're based, where you're doing business, where are you’ve acquired properties and developing properties?  We are based in Southern California in the San Fernando Valley. We're building four projects here locally. And we also have a funding opportunity zones that we're funding others across the nation to build their opportunity zone workforce housing. We define workforce housing as people making between 80 and 120 percent of area median income. That's what they can afford to pay. And we only have rents that are tagged to that structure.  I see. So, I know opportunity zones are a pretty new subject. And a lot of people are very curious about it. I know it offers a lot of tax benefits. So, what could you tell us about Opportunity Zones? Briefly provide your input on that.  There are three basic benefits. One is the deferral of taxes. It's basically 1031 on steroids. So, if you have gains in Apple stock or you sell a business it's not just a 1031 exchange anymore; you can sell the stock, sell interests in LLCs, you can exchange you any capital gain into opportunity zone investments. What's the benefit? Let's say you sell and you have one main dollar gain. That's let's say in round numbers federally it's 20 percent or 200 grand. That two hundred grand can be deferred until 2026. As you put it into an opportunity zone fund that purchases into one of eighty-seven hundred census tracts across the United States that are low-income census tracts designated by each governor across the country. So the first benefit again is a deferral of taxes. You don't pay that 200 grand until 2026.  The second benefit is that two hundred grand is going to be less if you purchase into an opportunity zone before now. So within seven years 2026, you get a 15 percent discount off of that tax base. So, in essence, you are paying one hundred seven thousand dollars in taxes so you got a free loan from the government for one hundred seventy thousand with that discount of 30 grand. So that's the number two but the really most important thing is if you hold that new investment into an opportunity zone that's invested in these eighty-seven hundred census tracts across the country hold it for 10 years and let's say that million dollars become worth four million dollars that three million dollar gain is tax free.  Wow. That's amazing and very interesting. So how is that changing the apartment building business? And in general, the investing business in the United States as far as you see it.  Well it hasn't yet because this Treasury has been very slow to come out with final regulations is just now getting going it's almost two years since the top tax act. Jobs Act of 2017 passed. So, the frustration for all of us who are on these panels and trying to get things going. We had a second set of regulations come out now we're waiting for a third set. So that's a challenge to get things moving. And the problem is that it was written by two senators that it was a bipartisan law which is a good thing, but it wasn't very heavy on details. And as a result, the accountants and lawyers and they're all wondering. How do we fill in the gaps of these uncertainties and so, we're almost there?  But it has not changed things much. To answer your question yes. But it will.  Ok. That's great. So, tell us more about what you're doing in the apartment building business, so I know you're focusing on C properties and B properties you're investing more in the quality of life of the tenants. So, tell us more about that business model and how is it different from other real estate investors.  Well, it's all about who's paying your bills. The tenant pays your bills. And if you don't have a happy tenant, they're not going to stay for their friends. So that's the basic tenet of what we do. We try to give everyone value and value can come and giving people amenities, even though they're in a little less expensive environment. And that's very simple we give her. It's like a fake Gucci bag. He likes to have a feeling of that Gucci bag. But it may not be real, but it still makes him feel good. And so we give people well-appointed interiors, beautiful paint jobs, the resort-style pools, State of the art fitness centers, social areas to thrive in. And we just give people that nice sense of community because you can smell it when you walk into the leasing office that just it feels good feels like home. It's very simple, but very few people care about the resident. And that's the problem. Yes, people care about maximizing cash flow.  Yes, I agree because I've been interviewing a lot of investors and it's typically about money not about the resident. So how about you tell us about a deal that was structured this way. So, what are the changes that you've made it improve the quality of life for the tenant? So, give us an example that details so you can understand more about what it is exactly what you're trying.  We bought a high rise in Maryland called Waterford tower. We got sniped by the county because they wanted to buy it out from under us and we said hey, wait why would you want to buy it out from under us. This thing's neglected it needs TLC. Why don't we work together so we got a loan structured by the county in exchange for putting affordability which we would have put on anyway based on 70 and 80 percent of area median income residents?  So, we've spent three million dollars in the process of renovating all the interiors, all the common areas. And this place was neglected and it was very sad how this major institution allowed this property to get in such disarray. So, we closed on it, we’re cleaning it up. Residents are happy were 96 percent leased and we're renting to people that only make a certain level of income. Not all of it.  It's a mixed-income property so half the property is fully market rate and the other is based on income restrictions so people can live together and work together as long as there's a common sense of community. And that said, its very simple, it's not rocket science.  So how many units is that property in Maryland? One hundred and forty-five. I see. And when you're saying that there are income restrictions what are the income restrictions 70 percent and 80 percent of area median income, let's say area median income is one hundred thousand dollars. Seventy percent and is seventy thousand dollars. Rents are going to be capped at 30 percent of that 70 percent because no one should pay more than 30 percent for rent in a year. So, 30 percent times – I have a calculator in front of me.  Quickly, but I'm 70 that's the twenty-one thousand. Okay. So that's the max we can charge for rent.  I see. And so when you're improving the property how do you make sure you're not over improving the property as you're investing in C class buildings and you typically people always say you don't want to over-improve the property because you might be losing money.  Well, you can do it right the first time we could limp along and pay later the bottom line is you have to buy it right. And if you buy a right and you have th