Decoder with Nilay Patel

The Decoder team turns the tables on Nilay and makes him answer your burning listener questions in our end-of-year wrap up special. We also reflect on the year’s biggest Decoder themes, discuss some of the most popular feedback we’ve received, and tease what we have planned for next year.  Links:  Here we go: The Verge now has a subscription | The Verge How The Verge Works | The Vergecast Intuit asked us to delete part of this Decoder episode | Decoder What’s really behind Big Tech’s return-to-office mandates? | Decoder Rabbit CEO Jesse Lyu isn’t thinking too far ahead | Decoder Transparent Vice | The Verge UiPath CEO Daniel Dines thinks automation can fight the great resignation | Decoder Palmer Luckey, American Vulcan | Tablet  A revolution in how robots learn | The New Yorker Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today we’re talking about antitrust policy and tech, which is at a particularly weird moment as we enter the second Trump administration. A lot of tech policy is at a weird moment, actually, but antitrust might be the weirdest of them all — the pendulum has swung back and forth on antitrust policy pretty wildly over the past few years, and it’s about to swing again under Trump. So I asked Leah Nylen, an antitrust reporter for Bloomberg News and a leading expert on this subject, to come on the show and help break it all down.  Links:  Trump’s antitrust trio heralds Big Tech crackdown to continue | Bloomberg Trump picks FTC Commissioner Andrew Ferguson to lead the agency | Politico Trump picks Gail Slater to head Justice Department's antitrust division | Reuters Trump names Brendan Carr as his FCC leader | The Verge Trump’s FTC pick promises to go after ‘censorship’ from tech companies | The Verge Breaking down the DOJ’s plan to end Google’s search monopoly | The Verge US v. Google redux: all the news from the ad tech trial | The Verge Tech leaders kiss the ring | The Verge DOJ antitrust chief is ‘overjoyed’ after Google monopoly verdict | Decoder This is Big Tech’s playbook for swallowing the AI industry | Command Line Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Alex Heath, Deputy Editor at The Verge, guest hosts this episode of Decoder featuring a live interview with Arm CEO Rene Haas about the future of AI and the semiconductor industry. The two discuss his thoughts on the struggles of Intel, the rumors Arm is developing its own AI chips to rival Nvidia’s, and his thoughts on the incoming Trump administration.  Links:  What Arm’s CEO makes of the Intel debacle | Command Line How Arm conquered the chip market without making a single chip | Decoder Arm could be the unexpected winner of the AI investment boom | FT Arm to reportedly launch AI chips by 2025 to capture explosive demand | CNBC Intel’s CEO is out after only three years | The Verge What happened to Intel? | The Verge Nvidia plans ARM-based PC platform to rival Intel, AMD | DigiTimes Qualcomm x Arm beef escalates | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24084728 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’ve been talking a lot this year about the changing internet, and what it’s doing to the media ecosystem — particularly journalism, which has taken a backseat to creators and influencers. But the tech platforms themselves have a lot of influence over what those creators and influencers make, too. If you’re a Decoder listener, you’ll recognize this as one of my common themes — the idea that the way we distribute media directly influences the media we make.  To break this all down, I invited media critic and labor union president Matt Pearce on the show to discuss a great blog he wrote titled “Lessons on media policy at the slaughter-bench of history.” We get into what mechanisms can be used to fund journalism, and how building a direct audience and exercising control over distribution is more pivotal than ever.  Links:  Lessons on media policy at the slaughter-bench of history | Matt Pearce Journalism's fight for survival in a postliterate democracy | Matt Pearce A deep dive into Google's shady (and shoddy) California journalism deal | Matt Pearce Google Zero is here — now what? | Decoder Casey Newton on surviving the great media collapse and what comes next | Decoder Illusory Truth Effect | The Decision Lab The people who ruined the internet | The Verge Another independent site says Google killed its business | The Verge Google ‘can’t guarantee’ that independent sites will recover | The Verge Owner of Los Angeles Times Plans ‘Bias Meter’ Next to Coverage | NYT Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There’s something strange happening these days in the podcast world — in particular, the way companies that deal in money have been using podcasting as not just an entertainment medium, but a unique kind of hybrid of marketing, thought leadership, and networking. Guest host David Pierce and Vulture podcast critic Nick Quah break it all down.  Links:  How Venture Capitalists Use Podcasts to Lure in Founders | Vanity Fair Your Next Podcast Interview Might Be a Meeting In Disguise | Bloomberg Elliott launches podcast in attack ploy aimed at Southwest | Axios How podcasts became the new battleground state | Vulture In the “Podcast Election,” Trump talked to vastly more people | Edison Research Podcasts become politician magnets | Axios Founders of podcast ‘Acquired’ are raising an investment fund | GeekWire Podcaster-turned-VC Harry Stebbings raises $400m for third fund | Sifted Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Mustafa Suleyman, the CEO of Microsoft AI. Mustafa is a fascinating character in the world of AI — he’s been in and out of some pivotal companies like DeepMind, which he cofounded, and Google. He landed at Microsoft through a unique not-quite-acquisition deal of his latest startup, Inflection AI.  As CEO of Microsoft AI, Mustafa now oversees all of its consumer AI products, including the Copilot app, Bing, and even the Edge browser and MSN — two core components of the web experience that feel like they’re radically changing in a world of AI. The company has also a unique relationship with OpenAI, one that’s grown more complicated of late. That’s a lot of Decoder bait, and we really get into it.  Links:  Google DeepMind co-founder joins Microsoft as CEO of its new AI division | The Verge This is Big Tech’s playbook for swallowing the AI industry | Command Line The new AI deal: buy everything but the company | NYT Sam Altman lowers the bar for AGI | The Verge OpenAI seeks to unlock investment by ditching ‘AGI’ clause with Microsoft | FT ​​Microsoft needs to win back trust | The Verge Microsoft’s AI boss thinks it’s okay to steal content if it’s on the open web | The Verge Read Microsoft’s optimistic memo about the future of AI companions | The Verge ​​Microsoft gives Copilot a voice and vision in its biggest redesign yet | The Verge How Microsoft is thinking about the future of Copilot and AI hardware | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24078862 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

AI investment is massive, but AI profits are not — and yet investors seem confident massive AI fundraising will one day translate into sizable AI profits. To break it down, Verge Deputy Editor Alex Heath guest hosts this episode of Decoder featuring Menlo Ventures partner Tim Tully and AirStreet Capital founder Nathan Benaich.  Links:  2024: The State of Generative AI in the Enterprise | Menlo Ventures State of AI Report | Nathan Benaich AI Index Report 2024 | Stanford HAL How companies are spending on AI right now | Tech Brew OpenAI Is growing fast and burning through piles of money | NYT Amazon to invest another $4 billion in OpenAI rival Anthropic | The Verge Agents are the future AI companies promise — and desperately need | The Verge Anthropic’s latest AI update can use a computer on its own | The Verge OpenAI reportedly plans to launch an AI agent early next year | The Verge Is AI hitting a wall? | Command Line Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Bluesky has really taken off since the election, and since the Decoder team took some time off for Thanksgiving break, we felt it was a great time to bring back the interview we did earlier this year with Jay Graber, the CEO of Bluesky, the upstart competitor to Meta’s Threads and the platform formerly known as Twitter.  At the time, Bluesky was a pretty small platform. It had just reached 5 million users when Jay and I spoke. But since the election, Bluesky’s growth has absolutely skyrocketed to more than 20 million users, and it's starting to put real competitive pressure on Threads at the feature level. As Bluesky really ramps up, it seemed like a great time to engage with some of the core questions behind its design and see if Jay and her team can keep it up. Links:  Twitter’s heir apparent isn’t X or Threads — it’s Bluesky | The Verge Bluesky now has more than 20 million users | The Verge Bluesky moves deeper into moderation hell | The Verge Twitter is funding research into a decentralized version of its platform | The Verge Bluesky built a decentralized protocol for Twitter | The Verge The fediverse, explained | The Verge Bluesky showed everyone’s ass | The Verge Can ActivityPub save the internet? | The Verge Bluesky snags former Twitter/X Trust & Safety exec cut by Musk | TechCrunch Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech — Mike Masnick Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23872913 Credits:  Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I spoke with GoDaddy CEO Aman Bhutani live on stage last week at an event hosted by Alix Partners in Palo Alto. GoDaddy is one of those companies that feels tied to an earlier era, but Aman’s been CEO since 2019, and he’s been building out what he calls adjacencies. The business of the web has really changed in the past few years: the walled-garden, social network era really took over in the past decade, and now huge changes to Google Search and the addition of generative AI have really put a massive strain on the very foundations of the open web. So I started out by asking Aman the question I’ve asked so many other guests on Decoder in the past year: What is the point of a website in 2024? Links:  If GoDaddy can turn the corner on sexism, who can’t? | New York Times (2017) Google Zero is here – now what? | Decoder Five for the Future – GoDaddy | WordPress.org 2024 is shaping up to be the smallest Black Friday ever | GoDaddy GoDaddy’s mission to get entrepreneurs up and running fast | Forbes GoDaddy launches a suite of AI tools for small businesses | Fast Company Why make a website? Squarespace CEO Anthony Casalena has ideas | Decoder Wix CEO Avishai Abrahami on why the web isn’t dying after all | Decoder How WordPress and Tumblr are keeping the internet weird | Decoder Intuit CEO Sasan Goodarzi | Decoder Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24069405 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Travis Larchuck and Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For nearly 20 years now, the web has been Google’s platform; we’ve all just lived on it. Google is constantly changing that platform — it launched another attempt to combat ‘parasite SEO’ just this week — and not all of those changes have worked well. Earlier this year I talked to a lot of people who have built on that platform. For a lot of small businesses and content creators, that’s suddenly not stable anymore. The number one question I have for anyone building things on someone else’s platform is: What are you going to do when that platform changes the rules? Links:  Google is cracking down on sites publishing parasite SEO content | The Verge How Google is killing independent sites like ours | HouseFresh HouseFresh has virtually disappeared from Google results. Now what? | HouseFresh Google Is Killing Retro Dodo & Other Independent Sites | Retro Dodo Google CEO Sundar Pichai on AI-powered search and the future of the web | The Verge Will AI break the internet? Or save it? | The New York Times The biggest findings in the Google Search leak | The Verge Mountain Weekly News Telly Visions E-ride Hero That Fit Friend Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, it’s Nilay — Decoder is on a short break this week. We’ll be back with a special live interview episode on Monday of next week, and then regular programming will resume in December. I’m very excited for what we have coming up on the schedule.  But while we’re out, we’d like to highlight a great episode of a new podcast from our friends over at Vox called Explain It To Me. On this episode, host Jonquilyn Hill and her team tackle a decision that looms large for a lot of young people in America: How and when should you start saving for retirement — and will it even matter in a future of big, often scary uncertainties about work in the age of AI and the climate crisis?  Links:  Explain It To Me | Apple Podcasts Will the world end before I can retire? | Vox Vox launches Explain It to Me franchise to answer audience questions | Explain It To Me The doomers are wrong about humanity’s future — and its past | Vox Against doomerism | Vox End Times: A Brief Guide to the End of the World | Bryan Walsh Here's how self-made millionaire Vivian Tu created wealth | CNBC Credits:  Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today we’re talking about Elon Musk, Donald Trump, and Tesla — and I have to say, it feels like the first of many episodes about these three characters that we’ll be doing over the course of the next four years. Because when Elon used his wealth and influence to help Trump get elected, he also bought himself a seat at the president-elect’s inner circle. But what does the world’s richest person really want in return? And how is the CEO of an electric car company, an outspoken advocate for combating climate change, going to square his support for Trump and a Republican policy agenda centered on climate change denial? Verge transportation editor Andy Hawkins joins me this week to make sense of it all, and to figure out how Elon and Tesla may still benefit, even if Trump's climate policy reversals and tariffs lay waste to the auto industry. Links:  What does Trump’s election mean for EVs, Tesla, and Elon Musk? | The Verge This election will decide what kind of car you’ll buy | The Verge Trump says Musk will lead ‘DOGE’ office to cut ‘wasteful’ government spending | The Verge Elon Musk attends Trump's first post-election meeting with House Republicans | CNBC At Mar-a-Lago, ‘Uncle’ Elon Musk puts his imprint on the Trump transition | NYT Musk believes in global warming. Trump does not. Will that change? | NYT Elon Musk helped elect Trump? What does he expect in return? | NYT With ready orders and an energy czar, Trump plots pivot to fossil fuels | NYT Tesla hits $1 trillion market value as Musk-backed Trump win fans optimism | Reuters Trump’s return dims outlook for Chinese EV makers amid tariff threats | SCMP Credits:  Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Harvey Mason, Jr is CEO of the Recording Academy, the nonprofit organization most famous for the Grammy Awards. We spoke right before this year's Grammy nominations came out, and you'll hear us talk a whole lot about the changes he's tried to make with how the awarding membership works. I always say to watch what’s happening to the music industry because it’s a preview into what will happen to every other creative industry five years later. My chat with Harvey really drove the point home: AI, diversity, streaming distribution... it's all here, and all the tensions that come with. Links:  2025 Grammy nominations: The complete list | NPR The Grammys Move From CBS To Disney In Major 10-Year Deal | Deadline Recording Academy boots Grammy voters | Los Angeles Times Chappell Roan and the problem with fandom | Vox Grammys CEO: Music that contains AI-created elements is eligible | AP News Deborah Dugan Grammys Controversy: What to Know | Time For Taylor Swift, the Future of Music Is a Love Story | Wall Street Journal (2014) AI is on a collision course with music | Decoder Elvis Costello defends Olivia Rodrigo over ‘Brutal’ plagiarism claim | BBC Why Adobe CEO Shantanu Narayen thinks AI is the future | Decoder Transcript:  Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, we’re talking about work. Specifically, where we work, how our expectations of working remotely were radically changed by the pandemic, and how those expectations feel like they’re on the verge of changing yet again. For many people, the pendulum has swung wildly between working fully remote and now a push to return to the office from their bosses, and there are a lot of theories about what might really be motivating big companies to try and bring everyone back. To explain it, I caught up with two experts on the subject: Stephan Meier, a professor of business strategy at Columbia Business School, and Jessica Kriegel, the chief strategy officer at workplace culture consultancy Culture Partners. We dive into what’s been happening to the nature of work today, and whether Amazon, which just announced a major return to the office five days a week, is part of a bigger trend.  Links: Amazon is making its employees come back to the office five days a week | The Verge Amazon CEO denies 5-day office mandate is a ‘backdoor layoff’ | CNBC Bob Iger tells Disney employees they must return to the office four days a week | CNBC A quarter of bosses admit return-to-office mandates meant to make staff quit | Fortune More Americans now prefer hybrid over fully remote work, survey finds | Axios Google tells staff: stay productive and we’ll stay flexible | BI The list of major companies requiring employees to return to the office | BI Thinking Inside the Box: Why Virtual Meetings Generate Fewer Ideas | Columbia Duolingo CEO Luis von Ahn wants you addicted to learning | Decoder Sundar Pichai on managing Google through the pandemic | Vergecast Credits:  Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Baris Cetinok, who is in charge of all the software in the cars that GM makes, which is a lot of cars. And if you’ve been following any of the drama in the world of car software, you know it also means Baris is the guy who has to defend GM’s decision to drop Apple CarPlay and Android Auto from most of its cars, especially EVs.  I’ve had versions of this conversation with the CEOs of car companies before, but Baris is in charge of actually building this stuff. So we really got into the weeds here on what this looks like, the major trade-offs, and why he thinks it’s ultimately the right path for GM.  Links:  GM names new leaders of software organization | The Detroit News GM is cutting off access to Apple CarPlay & Android Auto for its future EVs | The Verge Will GM Regret Kicking Apple CarPlay off the Dashboard? | Bloomberg Rivian CEO: CarPlay isn’t going to happen | Decoder Volvo CEO thinks dropping CarPlay is a mistake | Decoder GM Ultifi software platform will roll out in 2023 | The Verge Android Auto vs. Android Automotive vs. Google Automotive Services | Android Police GM plans another big Super Cruise hands-free expansion | The Verge GM will start making money on EVs this year | The Verge How GM plans to beat Google, Apple at car software | Motor Trend Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24049622 Credits:  Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Trump and a bunch of billionaires, like Elon Musk, are calling for the FCC to punish TV stations by revoking their licenses and using the spectrum for other stuff. In a normal world, this would be idle billionaire wishcasting. Punishing news organizations is one of those things we have a First Amendment to protect against. You know — the one that protects free speech by prohibiting the government from making speech regulations or punishing people for what they say?   But, it turns out, there is a long and complex history of the government regulating speech on broadcast platforms like radio and television — and that history dovetails into many of the problems we have regulating tech companies and social platforms today. Verge senior tech and policy editor Adi Robertson joins me to dive in. Links:  The Verge guide to the 2024 US presidential election | The Verge FCC chair rejects Trump’s call to revoke CBS license over Harris interview | The Verge Florida official who resigned after letter to TV stations blames DeSantis’ office | MSNBC “To keep it simple for the state of Florida: It’s the First Amendment, stupid” | The Verge How America turned against the First Amendment | The Verge Why Sen. Brian Schatz thinks child safety can trump the First Amendment | The Verge How the Kids Online Safety Act puts us all at risk | The Verge Here’s a bunch of bananas shit Trump said today about breaking up Google | The Verge Barack Obama on AI, free speech, and the future of the internet | The Verge Why you’re seeing those gross political ads during the World Series | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky, who is only the second person to be on Decoder three times — the other is Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg. Brian made a lot of waves earlier this year when he started talking about something called “founder mode,” or at least, when well-known investor Paul Graham wrote a blog post about Brian’s approach to running Airbnb that gave it that name. Founder mode has since become a little bit of a meme, and I was excited to have Brian back on to talk about it, and what specifically he thinks it means. Talking to Brian is a ride, but I think I held my own, and I think you’ll really like this one. Links: Founder Mode | Paul Graham Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky is taking it back to basics (2023) | Decoder Why the future of work is the future of travel, with Airbnb’s Brian Chesky (2021) | Decoder Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky: ‘I Never Called it Founder Mode’ | Skift Why Silicon Valley is abuzz over ‘Founder Mode’ | NYT After Apple, Jony Ive Is Building an Empire of His Own | NYT Airbnb can now help you find somebody to manage your listing | The Verge Airbnb creates new chief business officer role | Reuters Why Jeff Bezos Says Your Goal Is to Make 3 Good Decisions per Day | Inc Taking the Mystery out of Scaling a Company | Ben Horowtiz Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24043611 Credits:  Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, we’re going to try and figure out "digital god." I figured we’ve been doing Decoder long enough, let’s just get after it. Can we build an artificial intelligence so powerful it changes the world and answers all our questions? The AI industry has decided the answer is yes.  In September, OpenAI’s Sam Altman published a blog post claiming we’ll have superintelligent AI in “a few thousand days.” And earlier this month, Dario Amodei, the CEO of Anthropic published a 14,000-word post laying out what he thinks such a system will be capable of when it does arrive, which he says could be as soon as 2026. Verge senior AI reporter Kylie Robison joins me on the show to break it all down.  Links:  Machines of Loving Grace | Dario Amodei The Intelligence Age | Sam Altman Anthropic’s CEO thinks AI will lead to a utopia | The Verge AI manifestos flood the tech zone | Axios OpenAI just raised $6.6 billion to build ever-larger AI models | The Verge OpenAI was a research lab — now it’s just another tech company | The Verge California governor vetoes major AI safety bill | The Verge Inside the white-hot center of AI doomerism | NYT Microsoft and OpenAI’s close partnership shows signs of fraying | NYT The $14 Billion question dividing OpenAI and Microsoft | WSJ Anthropic has floated $40 Billion valuation in funding talks | The Information Credits:  Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today’s episode, well — it’s a ride. I’m talking to Intuit CEO Sasan Goodarzi, who’s built Intuit into a juggernaut business software company in part through a series of major acquisitions: TurboTax, MailChimp, CreditKarma, and loads more. There’s a lot of good Decoder material there, and we get into it.  But it’s TurboTax, and the company’s tax lobbying efforts to protect it, that really drives a major narrative about Intuit, for better and worse. So you can bet I asked Sasan about all this, and it got a bit contentious. In fact, the company's chief communications officer even demanded we delete a portion of this interview over an exchange with Sasan on TurboTax. Don’t worry — we don’t do that here at The Verge. So expect to hear that section right up top, with the rest of the interview following after. Links: Inside TurboTax’s 20-year fight to stop Americans from filing taxes for free| ProPublica TurboTax deliberately hid free file page from Google Search | ProPublica TurboTax maker Intuit spent millions in record lobbying blitz | OpenSecrets FTC: Intuit’s “free” TurboTax ads misled consumers | The Verge TurboTax isn’t allowed to say it’s ‘free’ anymore | The Verge Intuit owes you money if it made you pay for TurboTax “free” | The Verge IRS extends its Free File tax program for five more years | The Verge IRS Direct File set to expand availability in a dozen new states | IRS Mint is shutting down, and it’s pushing users toward Credit Karma | The Verge Intuit Mailchimp CEO Rania Succar on Decoder | Decoder Ethics Statement | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24037861 Credits:  Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today’s episode is a little different: Digitas CEO Amy Lanzi and I recorded this conversation live on stage during advertising week in New York City at an event graciously hosted by Adweek.  I've actually been dying to talk to Amy. Digitas is one of the most important agencies in the entire advertising business with huge clients and massive influence over big platforms like Instagram and YouTube. After all, they're the ones buying the ads that keep all of those companies afloat. As you'd expect, she has a lot of thoughts about influencers, creators, AI, and everything that is going to change the advertising industry in the months and years to come. Links:  Publicis Groupe acquires influencer-marketing giant Influential | Marketing Dive Epsilon has first Digital CDP to provide native omni-channel activation | Epsilon Stagwell is on the hunt for adtech as the ad company continues its acquisition spree | BI Emma Chamberlain Is the People’s Influencer | Allure Inside the World of Sephora Squad | Marketing Scoop Fanatics Launches Fanatics Live, a Next-Gen Live Commerce Platform | Fanatics There’s no AI without the cloud, says AWS CEO Adam Selipsky | The Verge A Google breakup is on the table, say DOJ lawyers | The Verge For Gen Z, TikTok Is the New Search Engine | The New York Times Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices