This episode was not recorded by Adam. It was recorded by Sumner, on February 20, 1980, when he, along with Rudolph Grey and Duncan Lindsay, sat down for a conversation with abstract expressionist painter Milton Resnick. In the late 1960s and early 1970s, Resnick taught at the New York Studio School, where he was Sumner’s most important teacher. Under Resnick’s tutelage, Sumner’s own painting switched from figurative to abstract, and remained abstract until he began doing figurative painting again in the post-Mars period, the end of the 1970s into the 1980s. During this same time he also made a practice of conducting interviews, with artists and others. He interviewed Resnick three times, of which this is the first. While Sumner published some of these interviews in Vacation magazine, these interviews with Resnick have never been released publicly in any form, to our knowledge. This one is a remarkable, wide-ranging conversation, covering many topics, but coming back repeatedly to questions around the value and meaning of art and the role of the artist in society. Adam is also now writing about Sumner on substack, approximately weekly. You can find out more about Milton Resnick at the web site of the Milton Resnick and Pat Passlof Foundation.
In this episode, Adam talks to musician, archivist, and historian Weasel Walter. As a musician, Weasel’s work spans (quoting from his web page) “extreme rock forms and free jazz”. He was a key figure in what has been called the second no wave movement, in Chicago in the 1990s. His bands and collaborations include the Flying Luttenbachers and (with Lydia Lunch) Retrovirus, among too many others to list. But Weasel is also known as one of the most knowledgeable archivists and historians of the original no wave scene. He was too young to be there in downtown NYC in the 70s, but he can tell you more about who did what, where and when than just about anyone, including the people who were there. Weasel and Adam talk about what happened back then, how it influenced Weasel’s own life and career, and the broader issues around art, culture and commerce that are raised by all of it and that form the context in which we can try to understand Sumner. This interview was recorded in March 2025. Adam is also now writing about Sumner on substack, approximately weekly. You can find Weasel’s music on weaselwalter.com.
In this episode, Adam talks to Arto Lindsay for a second time. The first time (The Sumner Files, Episode Five) was remote, when Arto was in Brazil and Adam in NYC. This time, a few months later, Arto was in NYC and came by to look at Sumner’s archive and talk about it. Arto himself appears in the archive, in multiple ways — for example, the drawing shown above (8.5″x11″, ink on paper), one of many that Arto did as part of the Jack Texas collective with Sumner and Rudolph Grey. This interview was recorded in November 2024. Adam is also now writing about Sumner on substack, approximately weekly.
Adam talks about the crisis in U.S. science and higher education that is unfolding now, due to the multi-pronged assault on both by the second Trump administration. This episode was recorded on June 19, 2025. It’s a special one-off episode of Deep Convection, not part of The Sumner Files. Media articles mentioned in the episode include: New York Times article by James Glanz. Guardian op-ed by Colette Delawalla, Victor Ambros, Carl Bergstrom, Carol Greider, Michael Mann and Brian Nosek on the “Gold Standard” executive order. After this episode was recorded but before it was released, the New York Times published this article that makes many of the same points about the damage being done to U.S. science, through the lens of Harvard.
Photo by Alon Koppel. Connie Burg, aka China Burg, Don Burg, and Lucy Hamilton, had never played the guitar before she joined Mars. But that didn’t stop her from developing a uniquely original style that became a defining feature of Mars’ sound, and that in turn influenced all the No Wave music that came afterwards. Connie went on to learn another brand new instrument, the bass clarinet, for Sumner’s opera, John Gavanti, and then she kept playing it in her later projects, including Don King (with Mark Cunningham and others), The Drowning of Lucy Hamilton (with Lydia Lunch), Gerry Miles (with Melissa Weaver and Alan Licht), and The Love Dogs (with Andy Salcius). Though Connie and Sumner didn’t play music together post-Gavanti, they stayed friends ever after, and her face is prominently featured in a number of his paintings. Connie recounts some great new stories to Adam, such as when Sumner got her and three other friends to form a bridge club, meeting weekly, so that he could paint them while they played the card game. Connie is a No Wave legend, an important person in Sumner’s life, and a critically important contributor to The Sumner Files. This interview was recorded in December 2024.