Destination Discourse

It’s the 50th episode of Destination Discourse, and Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker mark the milestone by taking a reflective walk through their biggest learnings and shifts in perspective since launching the show. In a heartfelt, humorous, and occasionally roast-filled conversation, they unpack how their thinking has evolved on three major fronts: the role of paid vs. owned media, the importance of measuring what truly matters, and how they now view the role of a DMO in the community. Along the way, they revisit some of their favorite guest moments—from Zeke Coleman’s red-pill data analogy to Will Seccombe’s cautionary tale about risk—and talk about how those insights have changed them as professionals. Adam surprises Stuart with a tribute to his recent Content Marketer of the Year award, and both hosts get vulnerable about their professional growth, podcast therapy moments, and the impact of building this community. Whether you’ve been listening since Episode 1 or you’re just discovering the show, this milestone episode captures exactly what makes Destination Discourse so unique: smart, unfiltered conversations about the real work of destination leadership. ⸻ 🔑 Key Takeaways / Learning Objectives:  • Discover how Stuart’s views on paid, earned, and owned media have shifted—and why he’s no longer so bullish on owned media alone.  • Understand the deeper KPI conversation, including why community sentiment and team impact may matter more than traditional vanity metrics.  • Hear how both hosts’ views on the role of a DMO have evolved—from marketers to strategic community collaborators.  • Revisit favorite past episodes and the moments that changed their thinking—from data debates to leadership gold.  • Reflect on the human side of leadership, risk-taking, and resilience—plus how podcasting itself can be a growth tool. ⸻ 💬 Notable Quotes: “The only way we fail is if we give up.” – Stuart “Paid media is the vehicle for attention, but trust comes from owned storytelling.” – Adam “I don’t think we’re just marketers anymore—we’re conveners, collaborators, and catalysts.” – Stuart “This show has 10x’d my learning rate. I finally get what DMOs go through.” – Adam ⸻ 📝 Additional Notes:  • This is one of the most personal and reflective episodes yet—equal parts roast, recap, and real talk.  • Includes a surprise segment where Adam flips the script and honors Stuart’s Content Marketer of the Year award.  • A great primer episode for new listeners to understand the show’s mission—and for loyal fans to see how far it’s come.  • Encouragement for listeners to suggest topics, share feedback, and even come on the show.

In this episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart and Adam sit down with Joe Heller, CMO of Discover Philadelphia, to tackle one of the biggest challenges facing DMOs today: how to break through the sea of sameness in meetings and conventions marketing. The conversation explores why traditional advertising often falls flat in the B2B space and how destinations can shift toward disruptive promotions and attention-grabbing tactics that make a lasting impression on meeting planners and attendees alike. Joe shares how Philadelphia approaches meetings and conventions with creative strategies—from airport takeovers to cheesesteak giveaways—and how DMOs can borrow lessons from SaaS companies to nurture leads and build stronger planner relationships. Stuart and Adam add their own experiences, from Myrtle Beach’s pickleball tournaments at trade shows to the power of AI tools that personalize outreach at scale. Key takeaways include: Why attention is more valuable than awareness in B2B marketing. How DMOs can use disruptive promotions to stand out at trade shows. The growing role of DMOs in filling attendance once an event is booked. What destinations can learn from SaaS lead-nurturing strategies. Why sales and marketing alignment is critical for winning and retaining events. If you’ve ever wondered how to make your destination stand out in the competitive meetings market, this episode offers practical ideas, candid examples, and fresh ways to rethink B2B marketing. CTA: Enjoying the show? Leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and share this episode with a colleague. It helps us keep pushing the industry forward.

This week’s episode goes deep into one of the most complex and often misunderstood conversations around artificial intelligence: its environmental impact. Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker are joined by returning guest C.A. Clark, who first appeared back in Episode 7 to talk about AI ethics. This time, the three pick up a conversation that started off-mic and turned into one of the most challenging, thought-provoking discussions we’ve had on the show. Before diving into the main topic, we kick off with Stu’s News and highlight Brand USA’s new “America the Beautiful” campaign website, built in collaboration with Mindtrip and Miles Partnership. The site uses conversational AI to blend search, social, and interactivity, pointing toward a future where destination websites become more dynamic, personalized, and conversational. We explore how this model could influence the way DMOs think about their digital ecosystems moving forward. From there, the focus shifts to the heart of the episode: AI’s environmental footprint. This issue has generated headlines, hesitation, and heated debate—but also a lot of confusion. Together, we dig into:  • Context and comparisons – Why asking about AI’s carbon emissions without comparing them to activities like streaming Netflix, scrolling TikTok, or eating a hamburger can be misleading.  • Scale vs. individual use – A single AI prompt may have the impact of a few seconds of TV, yet the aggregate demand across millions of users raises larger questions about infrastructure and power.  • Efficiency gains – Google’s latest research shows AI models becoming 33 times more energy efficient and 44 times lower in carbon footprint in just a year, underscoring how fast improvements are happening.  • Industry focus – Why some boards and organizations risk becoming distracted by environmental arguments, potentially at the expense of preparing for seismic shifts in consumer behavior driven by AI.  • The bigger picture – How AI might not only consume energy but also help us optimize industries, reduce waste, and solve environmental challenges we’ve struggled to tackle for decades. Throughout the conversation, the three emphasize intellectual honesty over ideology. They call out the dangers of apathy, the risks of letting “AI fatigue” stall progress, and the need for DMOs to move beyond fear or excuses. Whether you’re an AI skeptic or already experimenting with it daily, this episode challenges you to think more deeply about the trade-offs, realities, and opportunities ahead. Key Takeaways:  • AI is far from carbon-neutral, but its impact per use is smaller than many fear—and shrinking fast.  • Environmental comparisons matter: a hamburger, a flight, or a Netflix binge has exponentially higher impact than a ChatGPT prompt.  • The conversation should shift from fear to strategy: how will AI reshape consumer expectations, and what must DMOs do now to stay relevant?  • Experimentation is no longer optional—leaders who avoid AI risk falling behind as the pace of change accelerates. Why listen? This episode embodies what Destination Discourse aims to do: have honest, nuanced conversations that the industry might shy away from, while pushing professionals to ask tougher questions and prepare for what’s next. It’s not about telling you what to think—it’s about giving you the context to think differently. If you find this episode valuable, share it with your colleagues, leave a review, and subscribe so you don’t miss future conversations shaping the future of destination marketing.

In this episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart and Adam are joined by Christian Mengel of St. Joseph CVB—who is not the dating site, despite the name—for a compelling discussion about what destination marketers can learn from the decline of traditional media. Christian brings his background in journalism to unpack how newspapers, TV, and radio lost their position as trusted sources, and how DMOs may be on a similar path if they don’t adapt to shifting consumer behavior and technology. They explore:  • The new marketing equation: Attention + Trust = Success  • Why a Tampa real estate agent’s viral home tours offer a masterclass in modern content strategy  • How media lost control—and how AI threatens to do the same to DMOs  • Why consistency, creativity, and community connection are the new currency  • How to build coalitions of creators to shape narrative and build trust  • Why you can’t just claim authenticity—you have to earn it  • What Myrtle Beach is doing to future-proof its voice with a local Creator Collective This episode is equal parts warning, wisdom, and inspiration for DMOs ready to evolve before it’s too late. Call to Action: If you’re in destination marketing, don’t keep this episode to yourself. Share it with a colleague, subscribe on your favorite platform, and join us in redefining what it means to be relevant in the AI era.

We brought Destination Discourse to the main stage at ESTO 2025 for a special live debate—and it did not disappoint. In this high-energy session, Stuart and Adam tackled two provocative questions shaping the future of destination marketing:  1. Will DMO websites be irrelevant in 5 years?  2. Will the ROI of paid media continue to decline? With the audience choosing which side each of us had to argue (regardless of our actual opinions), we explored both sides of the argument—pushing boundaries, challenging assumptions, and asking what the future might hold for destination marketing. Key themes included:  • The rise of AI and conversational interfaces replacing traditional search behavior  • The shifting value of brand in the prompt era  • The battle between OTAs and destination-owned ecosystems  • Whether performance metrics are becoming a crutch or a compass  • What DMO websites should evolve into—if they’re going to matter at all  • Why upper funnel investment might be the smartest play in a fragmented media landscape We wrapped with audience Q&A and left the room with more questions than answers—which was exactly the point. ⸻ Takeaways:  • Don’t build a website. Build an immersive, personalized platform.  • Brand matters more than ever when AI chooses what to surface.  • Paid media isn’t dying—it’s just getting more expensive and harder to measure.  • If you’re not in the prompt, you’re not in the trip.  • DMOs must stop measuring what’s easy and start measuring what matters.  • The future isn’t fixed—and that should excite us. ⸻ Call to Action: Whether you were in the room or not, we hope this episode gets you thinking differently. Share it with a colleague, spark a conversation, and stay tuned for more Destination Discourse episodes that challenge conventional wisdom.

In this jam-packed episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart and Adam welcome Kristen Adamo, President & CEO of Go Providence, for a powerful conversation about the evolving role of destination marketing organizations—and more specifically—the CEO’s role in product development and community stewardship. They explore: • How Go Providence helped save WaterFire and turned it into an economic development lever • Why advocacy starts with being at the table, and sometimes means setting the table • How marketers are uniquely positioned to become CEOs (and why more of them should be) • The difference between promoting a destination and shaping it • The importance of “marketing the marketing”—including leave-behind ROI cards, op-eds, and internal newsletters • Why product development is brand management—and the risk of promoting an experience that doesn’t exist • How DMOs can gain influence with elected officials and avoid being seen as a “nice-to-have” Takeaways: → If you’re not involved in product, you may be promoting something that’s no longer competitive. → The most successful DMOs act as connectors, collaborators, and quiet power players—without needing the credit. → Marketing skills (storytelling, communication, vision) are becoming critical CEO traits in a post-COVID world. → Local advocacy isn’t optional anymore—it’s a core part of destination leadership. → Want to be indispensable? Tie every initiative back to room nights and community impact.

In this no-guest, think-out-loud episode, Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker tackle one of the most urgent shifts in destination marketing: how AI-powered trip planning and booking could change everything DMOs know about awareness, attribution, and conversion. They unpack Google Ads’ new branded search metric and why it may signal a swing back toward brand-first strategies, then dive into the coming challenge of Large Language Model (LLM) optimization. From schema markup and unique first-person content to integrated paid partnerships and community-driven brand amplification, they explore what it will take to make sure your destination is “in the prompt” when AI tools start recommending and booking trips. This is an unfiltered conversation about the pendulum swing from clicks back to brand, the blending of paid, earned, and owned media, and why attention, not just impressions, will be the new currency. Takeaways:  • Why Google’s new branded search metric hints at a return to brand-first marketing.  • How AI trip planning tools may bypass your website entirely and what to do about it.  • LLM optimization basics: schema, unique content, and authoritative sources.  • Why DMOs must think beyond their own brand to elevate the destination’s brand.  • How to make paid media dollars work harder through integrated, multi-channel partnerships. Call to Action: If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to subscribe, rate, and share Destination Discourse with a friend in the industry. And if you think we’re wrong or have your own perspective on the “brand in the prompt” era, reach out to join the conversation.

In this episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker welcome Dan Janes from Madden Media for a wide-ranging conversation that connects the dots between AI, agency structures, RFPs, and the way destinations approach marketing funnels. The trio kicks things off with Stu’s News on the release of ChatGPT-5, exploring its leap in reasoning, ability to understand intent, and potential to transform how teams work and problem-solve. From there, they dig into Dan’s “feisty” topic: why RFPs are often built for the past instead of the future—and how shifting them from a checklist of services to outcome-driven goals could spark innovation and better results. They also examine why the traditional marketing funnel no longer reflects today’s consumer behavior, what destinations should do to adapt, and why multifunctional, agile agency teams may be better equipped to thrive in this environment. Key Takeaways:  • AI is evolving fast—ChatGPT-5’s ability to understand intent and adapt its approach could revolutionize destination marketing workflows.  • Outcome over process—RFPs should be written around the results you want, not just the list of services you think you need.  • The marketing funnel is broken—today’s traveler has control, choice, and a more active role in the journey, requiring destinations to rethink their approach.  • Agency structures must adapt—cross-functional, nimble teams are better equipped to respond to rapid shifts in consumer behavior and technology.  • Content + context are key—ownable stories and hyper-relevant messaging will win trust and drive action. If you’re in the DMO or agency world, this episode will push you to challenge assumptions, rethink outdated processes, and explore what it takes to stay relevant in an AI-driven, consumer-controlled era. If you found value in this episode, please like, subscribe, and share it with a friend—whether they’re on the DMO side, the agency side, or just a fellow marketing nerd who loves a good rethink.

In this episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart and Adam welcome long-time listener and industry friend Caleb Sullivan for a candid conversation about what makes the vendor–DMO relationship thrive—or fail. Drawing from experiences on both sides of the table, they share the right (and wrong) ways to approach business development in the tourism space, why trust and authenticity are more valuable than a hard sell, and how playing the long game often pays off. From pandemic-era Clubhouse connections to lessons learned from awkward first pitches, the trio dives into practical tips for vendors trying to break in, DMOs evaluating partners, and anyone navigating this close-knit “friendship economy.” Expect stories, straight talk, and plenty of good-natured ribbing. What You’ll Learn in This Episode:  • Why authenticity and listening beat a one-size-fits-all sales pitch  • How to say “no” in a way that keeps the door open for future opportunities  • Why vendors should focus on creating value beyond the transaction  • The role of trust, likability, and long-term commitment in closing deals  • Ways DMOs can give vendors a fair shot without wasting time  • How to leverage industry events for meaningful connections If you enjoy the show, make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode—and share it with someone in the tourism industry who could use these insights.

In this episode, Stuart and Adam are joined by Steven Totten of Visit Phoenix for an unfiltered conversation on risk, innovation, and the sameness plaguing the travel and tourism industry. The trio tackles the dangers of navel-gazing, the repetitive creative churn from agencies, and the cultural fear that stifles innovation across DMOs. Stuart shares behind-the-scenes details on the launch of Charlie’s Place, a six-part podcast three years in the making, now picked up by Pushkin Industries. It’s a masterclass in place-based storytelling and branded entertainment done right. Steven explains why Visit Phoenix is approaching its DMO like a startup, embracing in-kind partnerships, retail-inspired merchandise drops, and intentionally choosing a creative agency outside the travel industry. The conversation dives deep into why risk-taking is feared, how comfort and inertia dominate DMO culture, and what it takes to break free—including strong internal communication, stakeholder education, and a shift from celebrating outcomes to celebrating strategic courage. Key Topics:  • Launch of Charlie’s Place podcast with Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch, and Pushkin  • The problem with outsourcing vision to agencies  • Risk aversion and fear-based culture in tourism  • Why most DMO org charts and funding models are all over the map  • The difference between celebrating risk vs. normalizing it  • Startup mindset and treating innovation as the core mission  • How Visit Phoenix is shifting perception through bold creative and ROI-focused partnerships

In Episode 40, Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker welcome Jim Harenchar, President of RMG USA, for a deep (and at times spicy) conversation on marketing attribution, ROI, and the complicated relationship between DMOs, agencies, and vendors. What starts as golf banter quickly tees off into a much larger dialogue about how—and whether—the travel industry is measuring what truly matters. From changing consumer behaviors to the dangers of over-attributing performance to the wrong channels, this episode challenges long-held assumptions and makes the case for smarter, more collaborative, and more nuanced measurement. Topics Covered:  • Golf as a growth engine: post-COVID trends, off-course vs. on-course participation, and product development opportunities  • Why DMOs need to adapt to shifting demographics and behaviors  • The problem with vanity metrics, over-attribution, and last-click bias  • ROI vs. awareness: why both matter but need different yardsticks  • Challenges with funding models, resource constraints, and vendor overload  • Agency dynamics, incentive misalignment, and the role of experimentation budgets  • A call for industry-wide frameworks and shared measurement models Notable Quotes:  • “You wouldn’t measure success for hunting the same way you’d measure success for farming.” – Stuart  • “Sometimes we’re not promoting golf—we’re promoting a bad golf experience.” – Adam  • “If we continue to do the same things, expecting the same results, we’re fooling ourselves.” – Stuart  • “Awareness is valuable. Without it, no one can transact with you.” – Adam  • “Let’s stop selling silver bullets and start selling collaboration.” – Stuart Next Up: Stuart and Adam will be live at ESTO—bring your questions, your hot takes, and your love for the Stu’s News jingle. Yes, there might be swag.

In this episode, Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker welcome special guest Rebecca Wormleighton, co-founder of Zendelity, to explore a nuanced challenge in destination marketing: How much influence do DMOs actually have over the guest experience—and what can they do about it? Despite Stuart battling some lingering Covid brain fog and Adam fresh off his 18th wedding anniversary trip to see Morgan Wallen, the crew dives deep into the disconnect between what destinations promise and what travelers experience. Rebecca shares insights from her career in hospitality tech and customer experience, suggesting that many organizations are managing frontline staff with outdated tools—spreadsheets and checklists—while pouring resources into digital guest messaging. She advocates for proactive data collection and operational visibility as the key to preventing negative guest experiences before they happen. Stuart and Adam consider the implications for DMOs: Can destinations track predictive metrics like staffing levels or restaurant wait times? Should DMOs create community-wide incentives or certification programs to raise service standards? And how does expectation-setting influence reviews and perception? The episode also includes:  • A discussion of lagging vs. leading indicators in tourism performance  • A hilarious AI-generated “apology video” for missing an episode due to Stuart’s Covid  • Adam’s shameless plug for the launch of Generation 2 of TourismIQ  • The concept of “Destination Excellence” as a possible rallying cry for communities Whether you’re a destination marketer, hotel operator, or tourism professional, this episode will challenge your thinking about what really drives guest satisfaction—and what role you play in shaping it. Want some swag at ESTO? Send in a question or comment before the event, and you’ll get a free shirt at the live Destination Discourse session!

What does the future of hiring look like in the world of destination marketing? In this episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker dive deep into that very question with industry experts Cambria Jones and Nicole Newman of SearchWide Global. From the shifting expectations of today’s workforce to the growing importance of culture, adaptability, and leadership, this conversation covers what DMOs must do to attract, retain, and nurture top-tier talent in a rapidly evolving environment. We explore how employer branding is becoming just as important as destination branding—and why being intentional and human in your hiring process matters more than ever. Whether you’re a job seeker, a hiring manager, or a curious observer of the travel and tourism space, this episode unpacks: 💡 Why experience alone no longer defines candidate quality 💡 The rising value of adaptability, curiosity, and AI fluency 💡 How to write job descriptions that sell the opportunity and the destination 💡 Why emerging leaders want growth, not just a title 💡 The overlooked Gen X gap and its impact on leadership pipelines 💡 Strategies to prevent losing rockstar talent to the vendor side 💡 Why speed, transparency, and authenticity are crucial to the hiring journey 💡 How SearchWide Global uses AI to identify non-traditional talent—and what that means for you Plus: → Cambria’s favorite interview question that instantly relaxes people → Nicole’s advice on getting to the real candidate behind the resume → Stuart’s legendary Steve Harvey meme test from his agency days → Why it’s time to move from tacticians to thinkers—and how that protects your team from AI displacement This isn’t just a hiring episode. It’s a call to rethink how our industry grows its people, tells its story, and defines what leadership should look like for the next generation. Have thoughts or feedback? Drop a comment, share with your team, or email us with ideas for future episodes!

In this special July 4th mini-episode of Destination Discourse, Stuart Butler and Adam Stoker preview their upcoming session at ESTO 2025 in Phoenix, Arizona. The duo reveals the inspiration and format behind their live show on Monday, August 18 at 2PM - an interactive, debate-style session designed to challenge groupthink and spark honest dialogue across the destination marketing industry. They tease two provocative statements that will be up for discussion:  • “DMO websites will be irrelevant in 5 years or less.”  • “Our industry relies on vanity metrics and calls it attribution.” Using live audience polling and real-time rebuttals, the session will blend humor, insight, and uncomfortable truths true to the Destination Discourse brand. Plus, Stuart drops some major personal news: he’s now President of Visit Myrtle Beach. The hosts reflect on how far the show has come, express gratitude to their growing Desti-nation of listeners, and encourage everyone to attend ESTO, which they describe as a must-attend event for marketers who want meaningful content—not sales pitches. This is a short but spicy episode, perfect for a holiday listen—and a reminder that sometimes the best way forward is to disagree, respectfully and out loud. Subscribe, review, and tell a friend to join the Desti-nation.

In this candid and cathartic episode of Destination Discourse, we welcome Emily Zertuche, CMO of Visit Corpus Christi, for one of our most honest conversations yet. Emily bravely steps onto the soapbox to explore a tension every destination marketing leader will recognize: Are today’s CMOs spending more time justifying their existence than driving meaningful impact? We talk about the increasing pressure on destination marketing leaders to constantly prove value to boards, stakeholders, and residents, often at the expense of innovation and forward-looking strategy. Emily pulls back the curtain on how her time is split between reporting, advocacy, internal communication, and navigating a maze of expectations from hoteliers, elected officials, and the community. Stuart and Adam dig into the broken model, the overwhelming demand for simplified reporting, and a provocative proposal: maybe CMOs aren’t marketing officers anymore—they’re Chief Value Officers. We also hear about Adam’s idea for a non-conference that gets real about the future of the industry and whether we’re ready for it. Topics Covered:  • What is (and isn’t) the role of a CMO in a DMO?  • How advocacy work is quietly taking over marketing roles  • Why reporting fatigue is real—and often counterproductive  • The communication challenge: simplicity vs. transparency  • Stakeholder education, ownership, and managing expectations  • Using AI to translate complex reports into human language  • How to structure internal reporting and future-proof your team  • Could the next big industry conversation happen before Esto? Join the Conversation: Drop your hot takes or questions on LinkedIn or Spotify comments. Want to rant about your own industry frustration? Email Stuart to be a guest on the show. Subscribe, Share, and Review! Help us push the industry forward—one uncomfortable conversation at a time.