Diabolical Lies

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.diabolicalliespod.comSurprise! Caro & Katie react in real time to the programming we all should’ve seen coming: “CBS News Presents: A Town Hall with Erika Kirk.”

Coming at you with our first ever bonus conversation for the public, in which we discuss the ongoing Starbucks Workers United strike taking place at hundreds of locations (and growing) all over the country right now. It’s also a conversation in which we offer a humble request of you this holiday season: Don’t go to Starbucks right now, if you can manage it.If, for whatever reason, you do need to go to Starbucks right now, fine. This is not a game of purity tests! It’s a game of numbers. As such, consider cutting your usual order or frequency of visits in half. Get your kid the cake pop, but cut out your regular cappuccino, or take the venti to a tall, etc. Every dollar you withhold from this corporation during a sustained labor strike is going to hit them that much harder, and the potential ripple effect of a combined consumer and labor boycott on one of the largest food & beverage corporations in America is hard to overstate.Other references & citations* As of Monday, 3,800 baristas across 130 cities are holding the line* Workers in 10 other countries (!) began protesting in support* If you’re a Starbucks barista thinking about organizing your store, you can reach out here* Starbucks Workers United national strike fund This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.diabolicalliespod.com/subscribe

First things first: Merch is here! Get it now before it’s gone. We’re so proud of this limited edition drop of deeply diabolical merchandise. Items will ship in mid-January, and 33% of all net profits will go to Feeding America, a non-profit nationwide network of more than 200 food banks that feed more than 46 million people through food pantries, soup kitchens, shelters, and other community-based agencies.If you’re a paid subscriber, you can access two exclusive pieces of DL swag by using your special password, which can be found in our merchandise announcement, or in the episode preceding this one in your audio feed. I, Caro, usually to try to be witty for show notes but frankly there are too many resources to share for this episode so I’m going to organize them by the three major topics covered in this conversation and then leave it there, ya girl has been poring through met gala archives for days and she’s TIRED.on the body positivity movement, aka that time period where we were all briefly “liberated” by the charitable and fierce activist work of, uh, corporate capture First, you should read anything that Virginia Sole-Smith or Aubrey Gordon write on the topic (and here’s the column we quote from Gordon about being “body positive but”)Now, onto the links.The Guardian op-ed on the “end of body positivity” by fat columnist and writer Rose StokesSome useful historical information on the history of fat activism (generally speaking, the national association to advance fat acceptance (naafa) is a great org)Vogue’s 2025 inclusivity report which lamented our drop in body positivity from, checks notes, 2% percent of models to 1.8% of modelsSome helpful context for the real-world weight loss of glp-1 vs clinical trialssome evidence for just how often we undergo a culture-wide chicken little moment of running around screaming that “ultra thin body types” are “suddenly back in vogue” and “it’s a dangerous new trend”* we were worrying about it in 2023* …and also in 2022* …and also in 2019* oh and by the way, when we *did* have fat characters on the screen, we basically mocked the characters mercilessly for being fat, yay for body positivity!* anyways yeah we were also talking about this in 2016* and 2012* and 2007You get the point. Oh also here’s an op-ed about michelle obama’s crusade against obesity that might complicate the narrative around conservatism equaling skinny cultureon the moral panic around eating disorders, featuring a series of fun facts caro learned on her intellectual rumspringa which thoroughly blew her mindsome recent studies on the potential inheritability of eating disorderssome background information on how men and fat people have been historically excluded from eating disorder research and recovery avenuesa historical explainer of anorexia (and here’s where I found the William Gull excerpt)info on the high comorbidity between anorexia and obsessive-compulsive disordera deep dive on the “biopsychosocial” of it all in relation to eating disordersand then a quick side door into the tressie-katie convo that truly rocked our worlds as well as this incredible comment we received on our liv schmidt/skinnytok ep, in its entirety:casual!on the magical third door/leg stool: Rayne Fisher-Quann’s theory of being “womaned”Here’s the full piece Fisher-Quann wrote for i-D MagazineAnd the book I reference, Damned Whores & God’s Police, by Anne SummersHere’s the JLaw NYT interview, as well as the Kristen Stewart NYT interviewThat’s it, thanks for coming to the show, there will be no encore, etc etc etc- This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.diabolicalliespod.com/subscribe

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.diabolicalliespod.comFeminist hysteria has replaced logic and reason in the American public discourse, or so says one Helen Andrews. Today, we dive into the logical underpinnings for this argument and conduct a close read of the source material, which does a genuinely impressive job of evading all manner of pesky contradictory data (women’s workforce participation declining since the year 2000, women making up less than 50% of corporate America even at the entry level, etc.) in order to mount an incredible argument: Wokeness is *sharply inhales through teeth* just chick stuff.Consider this a corollary to our The Men Are Not All Right episode, in that the “Great Feminization” panic is yet another outgrowth of the thesis that governs all of American gender politics: Society is failing men, but women are failing society.All references and citations in this episode can be found on the episode page at www.diabolicalliespod.com.

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.diabolicalliespod.comAs a reminder, this is a bonus episode, which means (say it with us now) we didn’t try that hard <3 Thanks for everyone who showed up to our live AMA this week. We laughed, we cried, we read RFK’s “swallow” poem to Olivia Nuzzi and will never be the same. A sampling of questions asked, and answered, in this conversation:

Earlier this month, Katie made a major announcement about her brand Money with Katie: In 2026, she will buy back her intellectual property rights and equity from Morning Brew, shutter the podcast for the indefinite future, take full ownership of the weekly newsletter, and return to her roots as a writer. This is a massive decision, to say the least, with major financial and spiritual implications — and if I, Caro, may be so bold, it feels very Diabolical Lies-coded. When Katie made the announcement public, it served as an excuse for me to corner Katie into a conversation I’ve been wanting to have with her for a very long time. So today we’re doing it. We’re diving into the full story of Money with Katie, featuring but not limited to:* how Katie became involved with personal finance* what it was like to build MWK from a side hustle to a seven-figure brand* where her political deconstruction from a capitalist to a radical commie fits into this equation* what it was like to kickstart another podcast while working sixty hour weeks* how much fun it was to meet me, Caro, hee hee ho ho* why she’s deciding to pivot at the exact moment when most people would double down on what’s “already working”Next spring, we will do a similar episode about me related to my novelist career. As a reminder, we’re doing an live AMA/bonus ep/gigglefest on Substack on Monday, November 24, at 6 PM EST. Email questions to ask@diabolicalliespod.com. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.diabolicalliespod.com/subscribe

A “point, counterpoint”-style deep dive into the double-sided coin of “ethical consumption” and “ethical salesmanship” (or its alternative, “selling out”) under that little thing we call “capitalism,” sponsored by our treasured economic partners in the Saudi Royal Family.“Is There REALLY No Ethical Consumption Under Capitalism?” from Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty (2024)“This feminist t-shirt isn’t actually made in a sweatshop” by Zing Tsjeng from Dazed (2014)Karl Marx in America by Andrew Hartman (2025)“Marxism Unmasked: From Delusion to Destruction,” a lecture series from 1952 by all-time neoliberal juggernaut Ludwig von Mises“The Litter Myth” from “Throughline” by NPR (2019)“A Beautiful If Evil Strategy” by Chris Rose from Plastic Pollution Coalition (2017)“Leaked Audio Reveals How Coca-Cola Undermines Plastic Recycling Efforts” by Sharon Lerner from The Intercept (2019)“What is Amazon Web Services?” by Melissa Eddy from The New York Times (2025)“People Think Amazon Is an E-Commerce Company, but 74% of Its Profit Comes from This Instead” by Anthony Di Pizio for The Motley Fool (2024)This video from Grace Blakeley, author of Vulture Capitalism, about whether one’s identity as a consumer can ever be weaponized as an anti-capitalist tool“Ethical Consumerism Isn’t Dead, It Just Needs Better Marketing” by Julie Irwin for Harvard Business Review (2015)“The Case Against Corporate Social Responsibility” by Aneel Karmani for Wall Street Journal (2010)“Nirvana: Inside the Heart and Mind of Kurt Cobain” by Michael Azerrad for Rolling Stone (1992)“Lived Through This,” an interview with Chuck Klosterman, by David Wallace-Wells for Vulture“The Rise and Decline of the ‘Sellout’” by Franz Nicolay for Slate (2017)Shakespeare’s Sonnet 110, in which he bemoans the need to do spon con so he can make a living as a writer“In the 90s, We Worried About Nirvana ‘Selling Out.’ I Wish That Concept Still Made Sense,” by Dan Brooks for The Guardian (2023)“How We Stopped Caring About Selling Out” and “Comedy’s Favorite Truth-Tellers are Playing Jester for the Saudi Prince” by Emily Topping for Current Affairs (2025)“The Age of the Double Sell-Out” by W. David Marx (2025)“I didn’t listen to a single Taylor Swift song on Spotify last year. She still made money off me.” by Chris A. Williams for The Philadelphia Inquirer (2024)“It’s Not the Crime, It’s the Coverup” by Freddie deBoer (2025)“Ha ha! Ha ha!” an infamous review of Trick Mirror by Lauren Oyler for London Review of Books (2020)“The Journalist as Influencer: How We Sell Ourselves on Social Media” by Allegra Hobbs for The Guardian (2019) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.diabolicalliespod.com/subscribe

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.diabolicalliespod.com

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.diabolicalliespod.comAs with all bonus conversations, this episode breaks from the regular format of this show and operates instead like an homage to how it started—sending impassioned voice memos back and forth. Enjoy.*snaps into character to method-act as Tyra Banks* We were all rooting for you.

Today’s conversation is a deep dive into the alliance between the neoliberal economic consensus and the social conservative movement in the late twentieth century—as told through the lens of a right-wing podcaster telling men they shouldn’t get married unless they’re capable of financially supporting a submissive wife and entire brood of children singlehandedly. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.diabolicalliespod.com/subscribe

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.diabolicalliespod.comAs promised, here’s a brief follow-up conversation on the Kirk of it all: one half news updates, and one half cultural analysis on the ongoing political fallout from Kirk’s murder.

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.diabolicalliespod.comCharlie Kirk “practiced politics the right way.” He was “a controversial and polarizing figure, but that doesn’t matter.” His “sort of dialogue is what universities are supposed to foster.” In the wake of Kirk’s murder, these are the sentiments that have been echoed repeatedly in op-eds written for our nation’s most esteemed publications. For any writers, comedians, or civilians who have dared to suggest otherwise, the retribution has been swift. We’re unpacking it all today in this two-part conversation: what actually happened in the last week, and what it means moving forward. Oh, and if you’re reading this and would like to get Katie fired, please let me know. I, Caro, am Katie’s boss, and have been looking for a reason to fire her anyways. Please relay your complaints about her behavior to our designated reporting hotline, 1-800-PSY BTCH. (Please press 666 followed by the pound sign to reach my office extension line located in the inner hallways of the darkest area of the ninth circle of Hell).Let’s get into it.

The Democratic Party’s approval rating is at a 30-year-low, and Americans rated them no better than the GOP at their ability to “manage the federal government effectively” or “bring about the changes this country needs.” A pretty damning indictment, considering the GOP is currently disassembling the government with a rusty hacksaw while wearing furry BDSM blindfolds.In the wake of running (and losing) a centrist presidential campaign side-by-side with the Cheneys, followed by a wave of interest in democratic socialists at the local level, liberal centrists are scrambling to prove that their ideology is still relevant and popular with voters. They suggest that candidates like Zohran Mamdani are “dangerous.” But…dangerous for whom?Do Democrats have a messaging problem, or a message problem? Do Americans need more convincing, or might Democrats need better principles? If only there were an overwhelmingly popular Democratic candidate whose positions we could study!Rather than step-ball-changing with the times, establishment Democrats are digging in their heels. Calls to rally behind Gavin Newsom are already rampant because, the thinking goes, “We need to unify the Left.” Instead of pushing for change, it’s time to fall in line and support yet another candidate who’s functionally indistinguishable from the last three unpopular candidates so we can “save democracy” and “beat Trump” and “no, seriously, stop asking why we keep sending billions to Israel, your ~purity politics~ of drawing the line at genocide are annoying.”Today, we investigate the end of the so-called “liberal order.” This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.diabolicalliespod.com/subscribe

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.diabolicalliespod.comTaylor Swift recently confirmed the imminent arrival of her 12th studio album, Life of a Showgirl. Over the course of a single fateful podcast interview, a new musical era wasn’t ushered through our cultural door so much as it kicked down the door entirely, machine guns blazing, screaming at us to drop to our knees and choke glitter. The marketing rollout for the Latest Taylor Swift Album to Save the Music Industry is now in full force, and likely will continue at pace through the album’s release date in October. For example, If you type Swift’s name into the Google search engine, your screen will rain orange confetti. Or if you enjoy following CPG brands on social media1, then you might have noticed the corporate leach effect of what amounts to one long algorithmic skid mark of unofficial brand collabs: United, Post It, Mentos, Oli Pop, Hallmark, Victoria’s Secret, Sharpie, and the Virginia Department of Transportation, to name a few. Who says social media innovation is dead!

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.diabolicalliespod.comIn this (bonus) conversation…Ever wondered why Bari Weiss is constantly creeping around the perimeters of the conversations we have on this podcast? Well, folks, today’s the day to understand.

In this conversation…Who could’ve foreseen when we started this podcast nearly one year ago to discuss the Times of London Ballerina Farm profile that today we’d be publishing a two-hour episode about the most stereotypically “controversial” geopolitical “dispute” in modern history?There’s one thing you’ll hear repeatedly in conversations about what’s happening in Gaza: It’s complicated.Or, you might hear that “Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East,” or that it’s the only country in the region that “shares our values.” (No objection there; Israel certainly shares American values, though probably not the values you think.)Unfortunately, the story of Israel and Palestine is a deeply American story—and it’s only through confronting it that we’ll be able to understand not just the past of American right-wing extremism, but its present and future.Even though we want this episode to be free for all to access, we want to extend a heartfelt “thank you” to the paid subscribers who make conversations like this one possible. $35,000 of the $66,000 in subscription payments we’ve donated so far this year have gone to food aid in Gaza. As Caro said, this episode is for—and exists because of—you, Dirty Little Liars: Thank you, and let’s fucking go.To become a paid supporter or access a full list of references and citations for this episode, head to diabolicalliespod.com. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.diabolicalliespod.com/subscribe

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.diabolicalliespod.com

In this conversation…It’s the grassroots sensation sweeping the internet and, by extension, the culture—proof that conservative values are mainstream, conservative women are hot, and their rapidly proliferating attendant movement is finally overpowering the excesses of liberalism. “We aren’t running from culture anymore,” as Alex Clark put it, “We’re running it.” They’re courageous enough to stand up for countercultural ideas like, “Women should be wives and mothers,” or, “White people are superior,” and there’s one thing they want to make absolutely sure you know: They’re taking over.…or are they?What do “conservative values” mean in this context? What does it mean to be a conservative, when the tent has metastasized beyond the point of recognizable cohesion? And most importantly, is there any proof that this “movement” is growing more popular with young women? Diabolical Lies investigates. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.diabolicalliespod.com/subscribe

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.diabolicalliespod.comWhen Sabrina Carpenter shared the album cover for her highly anticipated seventh studio album, Man’s Best Friend, the internet suffered an algorithmic nosebleed. An extremely high-stakes cultural debate unfolded: Was the photo (and correspondingly, her entire vibe) supposed to be funny? A form of edgy political satire? Or was Carpenter cashing in on our cultural history of fetishizing domestic violence/pedophilia/women’s suffrage/[insert infuriating clickbait term here]?In response to the foaming masses, Carpenter released a second alternative album cover — this one “approved by God.” But the question remains: did she do something wrong to begin with? What do pop stars owe the public, anyways — and what does our seemingly eternal frustration with them say about us?It’s not technically true that Sabrina Carpenter “became a pop star” in 2024. She’s been rising and grinding for over a decade now, moving through the Disney Industrial Complex with seemingly tireless pluck: First she starred in Girl Meets World, then she released five studio albums (casual), then she featured as “that blonde girl” in the Olivia Rodrigo diss track heard round the world, and then, finally, she got her big break. Well, technically two big breaks: she opened at the Eras Tour, and then she rebranded herself as a sixties, Bardot-esque character alongside the release of her sixth studio album, Short n’ Sweet. Boom. A star is born, etc. …but of course, the rules of stardom are clear: you cannot become a deeply famous, deeply marketable, deeply accessible Female Pop Entity without also becoming vaguely despised by feminists and evangelicals alike. Neat! Carpenter’s first major foray into controversy happened thanks to this W Magazine photoshoot, which featured Carpenter emulating the visuals of…

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.diabolicalliespod.comIn this (bonus) conversation…Reporting live from the basement where Annie Lowrey is chained to a radiator while a six-foot-tall sentient copy of Abundance holds a gun to her head, Caro & Katie review four pieces in major newspapers and magazines that were published in the days leading up to the New York City mayoral race when it became clear that the progressive Democrat who somehow managed to lead the polls without throwing trans people or immigrants under the bus might actually win.