Disarming Leviathan - Missionaries to Christian Nationalists

In this special episode, Caleb joins the team from Bodies Behind the Bus for a conversation about faith, justice, and compassion in the face of political division. Together, they share a joint fundraiser supporting a DACA recipient fighting to stay with their family in the U.S.As we enter this season, we can be about the business of loving our neighbor through acts of service, generosity, and kindness. Please consider donating to ease the burden for an immigrant family with DACA status pursuing legal pathways to safety.To donate and support the family mentioned in this episode, click here.Over the next few weeks, the Disarming Leviathan Podcast will feature collaborative projects like this one, with new interviews launching in the new year. Subscribe on Substack or visit disarmingleviathan.com to stay connected. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribeIn this episode, Phil Herndon examines how purveyors of American Christian Nationalism leverage the emotions of their audiences to gain allegiance, power, and money.This episode will not only help you recognize when your loved ones are experiencing emotions like rage, anxiety, and fear, but also provide you with practical tools for fostering peaceful, constructive conversations.About PhilPhil uses a dynamic approach to help his clients recover their hearts and redeem their stories. His therapeutic approach is grounded in the Spiritual Root System™, and is informed by the work of Irvin Yalom, Curt Thompson, Dan Siegel, and Dan Allender. He also integrates perspectives from Judeo-Christian traditions, existential philosophy, and pastoral care. Phil works with individuals who have lost their way through addiction, anxiety, depression, struggles with spirituality, or burnout to walk them through the tumultuous and scary times that are so common to the human experience.Phil worked in the trucking business through college and after college until finally realizing his true passion was helping people walk through difficulties and heartache. He completed graduate school in 1992 with a Master of Arts degree in counseling and religious education.He served as a pastor in Texas for 15 years until joining the Center for Professional Excellence in 2005 where he served as Clinical Director until 2020. Phil became the Clinical Director and co-owner of (what is now) River Tree in 2020 and loves his role in developing, encouraging, and equipping the staff as they walk with people through their life journeys. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribeIn this episode of Disarming Leviathan, Caleb Campbell speaks with Holly Berkley Fletcher about her journey from missionary kid in Kenya to CIA analyst to outspoken critic of Christian nationalism. Holly reflects on her evangelical upbringing, her experiences with authoritarian regimes, and how the language of faith is often weaponized to serve political power. The conversation dives into her personal reckoning with evangelicalism, the ethical challenges of public service, and her fierce commitment to democracy, justice, and telling the truth—even when it's costly.About Holly: Holly Berkley Fletcher is a writer, historian, and former CIA analyst who brings a unique voice to conversations about faith, politics, and public life. Raised as a missionary kid in Kenya and trained as an American historian, Holly spent nearly two decades working as an Africa analyst for the CIA. She now writes at the intersection of theology, democracy, and justice, contributing regularly to The Bulwark and her Substack, A Zebra Without Stripes. Her forthcoming book, The Missionary Kids, explores the personal and political legacy of evangelical missions and what it means to grow up in a faith tradition grappling with power. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

Caleb joins Dr. Jemar Tisby for a joint podcast that explores the history of American Christian Nationalism and the church and ways that we can engage those who are imbibing this harmful ideology. About Jemar TisbyJemar Tisby (BA, University of Notre Dame; MDiv, Reformed Theological Seminary) s the New York Times bestselling author of The Color of Compromise and the award-winning How to Fight Racism. He is a historian who studies race, religion, and social movements, and serves as a professor at Simmons College of Kentucky, a historically Black college. He is also the founder of The Witness, Inc. an organization dedicated to Black uplift from a Christian perspective. He has written for national news outlets such as The Atlantic, the Washington Post, and the Religion News Service. He has offered television commentary on CNN and is frequently called upon to provide expert insight on current events related to race and Christianity. He has spoken nationwide at colleges, universities, and other organizations.About Caleb CampbellPastor Campbell graduated Summa Cum Laude with a Master of Arts in Ministry from Phoenix Seminary in 2015. Caleb is currently a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary. He has served at Desert Springs Bible Church, in Phoenix, AZ since 2006, serving as Lead Pastor since 2015. He also serves on the board of United Pastors of Arizona, is the state-wide regional director of the Surge Network, and is one of the founders of the J29 Coalition. He has spoken at events hosted by Acts 29, the African American Christian Clergy Coalition, American Values Coalition, Surge Network, Grand Canyon University, Converge Arizona, Young Life, and Phoenix Seminary Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribeDr. Katharine Hayhoe shares her experience as a climate scientist and gives some practical coaching on how we can cultivate healthy conversations with friends and family with whom we fundamentally disagree. About KatharineKatharine Hayhoe is a climate scientist and chief scientist for The Nature Conservancy. She is also the Endowed Professor in Public Policy and Public Law and Paul W. Horn Distinguished Professor at Texas Tech University. She has been named a United Nations Champion of the Earth and one of Time’s 100 Most Influential People, and serves as the climate ambassador for the World Evangelical Alliance. Katharine was a lead author for the US Second, Third, and Fourth National Climate Assessments, hosts the PBS digital series Global Weirding, and has written for The New York Times. Her TED Talk “The Most Important Thing You Can Do to Fight Climate Change: Talk About It” has been viewed over 5 million times. She has a BSc in physics and astronomy from the University of Toronto and an MS and a PhD in atmospheric science from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe—Pastor and author David Swanson joins us for a discussion about the ways that racism, tribalism, and nationalism are impacting the American Church, and how we can work to be peacemakers in the midst of division. About David SwansonDavid is an author and the founding pastor of New Community Covenant Church who lives with his family on the South Side of Chicago. He is the founder and CEO of New Community Outreach, a non-profit organization dedicated to healing community trauma through restorative practices.David’s first book, Rediscipling the White Church: From Cheap Diversity to True Solidarity was published with InterVarsity Press in 2020. His forthcoming book with IVP, Plundered: The Tangled Roots of Racial and Environmental Injustice, will be published in October, 2024.David is a former Director of Church Planting for the Evangelical Covenant Church. He is a graduate of Montreat College (BS, 1999), Wheaton College Graduate School (MA, 2003), and North Park Theological Seminary (MDiv, 2023). He keeps track of what he’s reading here and on most Tuesday mornings you’ll find him wandering around Jackson Park looking for birds. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribePastor Steve Bezner joins us to discuss how American culture has influenced the American Church's view of Jesus. We explore some of the distorted views of Jesus, including 'Christian Nationalist Jesus.' He also gives some coaching on how we can invite people back to a robust, biblical view of Jesus. Preorder Steven’s book, Your Jesus is Too American today! About Steve BeznerSteve Bezner (PhD, Baylor University) is senior pastor of Houston Northwest Church in Houston, Texas. He is a local leader and participant in Multi-Faith Neighbors Network, where he builds bridges with Muslims and Jews, and he serves on the board of the Houston Church Planting Network. He also trains church planters through Glocalnet, serves on the executive committee of Texas Baptists, and is an adjunct professor at George W. Truett Theological Seminary at Baylor University. Bezner lives in Houston with his wife and two sons. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe—Bible scholar Dr. Timothy Gombis joins Caleb for an exploration of the themes of power and government in the New Testament and how they can shape our understanding of American Christian Nationalism. Caleb shares a few pieces from his Christian Nationalist Bible collection.About Timothy GombisTimothy G. Gombis (PhD, University of St. Andrews, Scotland) is professor of New Testament at Grand Rapids Theological Seminary, in Grand Rapids, MI. He is author of Paul: A Guide for the Perplexed (T&T Clark, 2010) and The Drama of the Ephesians: Participating in the Triumph of God (IVP Academic, 2010). He regularly writes about Christian identity, biblical studies, books, movies, music, sports, and culture on his blog, Faith Improvised ( https://timgombis.com). Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe—Dr. Dennis Edwards guides us in exploring how the New Testament can shape our understanding of and engagement in politics today.More about Dr. Dennis EdwardsDennis Edwards is the Vice President for Church Relations and Dean of the Seminary and is the author of 1 Peter in the Story of God Bible Commentary series (Zondervan), What is the Bible and How Do We Understand It? (Herald Press), and Might from the Margins: The Gospel’s Power to Turn the Tables on Injustice (Herald Press). Dennis has been married to Susan Steele Edwards since 1982. They are the parents of four children, and grandparents of four.You can find more on Dennis at https://www.revdrdre.com/ Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode featuring Tim Alberta.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

Hey friends,I hope you’re having a great summer. I wanted to take a moment to share a quick update on both the Disarming Leviathan podcast and the broader ministry.Podcast UpdateFirst, the podcast. I’m pretty much doing this on my own — no production team, no fancy strategy. If we did have seasons, I think we’d be wrapping up either our second or third season right about now.The way I’ve structured it is pretty simple: I reach out to people I respect — those I’ve learned from or hope to learn from — and record conversations with them. We’ve just wrapped up the most recent batch of those interviews. I have more great discussions lined up for later this summer and into the fall, and we’ll start rolling those out in the fall.In the meantime, we’ll be reposting a few past episodes that still speak to our moment. If you’re newer to the podcast, these may be brand new to you — think of them like those reruns of old sitcoms that feel fresh if you missed them the first time around.Ministry UpdateSecond, a quick update on the ministry itself. We recently released the Ministry Leader’s Companion Guide to Disarming Leviathan. It’s available on our website — disarmingleviathan.com. If you’re a pastor or ministry leader, I’d love for you to check it out. It’s designed to help you navigate conversations with people caught up in Christian Nationalism with wisdom, clarity, and love.Book UpdateAlso worth celebrating: Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor just turned one! The response to the book has far exceeded my expectations. I’m so grateful for your support, for spreading the word, and for sharing how the book is helping you in your ministry and relationships.If you’d like to help spread the word, reviews on Amazon or Goodreads really help others find the book. Sharing it on social media and tagging me or our Disarming Leviathan pages also helps. Also, I’d really love to hear how the book has been meaningful to you or how you’ve put it into practice. You can share with me on social media or email me at caleb@disarmingleviathan.com.Thanks for Your SupportFinally, if you haven’t already, subscribing to the podcast on your favorite platform and leaving a rating or review helps more people find these conversations.Thank you for your ongoing support — for listening, sharing, praying, and striving to love our Christian nationalist neighbors with the love of Christ. When I started this ministry, I honestly didn’t know what to expect. It’s been humbling and encouraging to see how God is using it.I’m grateful for you and praying that as we continue this work together, God would bless and keep you in the months and years to come.Jesus loves you so much!- Caleb E. Campbell Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

Political theorist Laurie Johnson joins Caleb Campbell to unpack the deeper forces driving America’s culture wars and ideological divisions. Drawing from her book The Gap in God's Country, Laurie shares her own political and spiritual journey—from Fox News conservative to a more reflective and empathetic posture—exploring how economic upheaval, social dislocation, and a loss of place have fostered political extremism and spiritual confusion. Together, they explore how modern life has misenchanted us, severed our communal ties, and made us vulnerable to ideological possession. Laurie offers wisdom on how we might engage angry or radicalized loved ones—not with facts alone, but through empathy, relationship, and a shared search for meaning in a fractured age.Dr. Laurie M. Johnson is a political theorist, author, and public educator whose work explores the intersections of political identity, spirituality, and social dislocation in modern America. A professor of political science with a Ph.D. from Georgetown University, she has written extensively on extremism, ideology, and the psychological roots of political division, including in her books Ideological Possession and the Rise of the New Right and The Gap in God’s Country. Laurie is also a co-founder of the Morin Academy, inspired by the Catholic Worker movement, and hosts a YouTube channel on political philosophy. Her work invites readers and listeners to explore how economics, place, and identity formation shape our public lives—and how empathy and rootedness might offer a way forward. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of Disarming Leviathan, death penalty scholar and former prosecutor Corinna Lain joins Caleb to discuss her groundbreaking book Secrets of the Killing State: The Untold Story of Lethal Injection. With a blend of research and personal reflection, Lain uncovers the history, flawed protocols, and moral implications of lethal injection as America’s primary method of execution. From the invention of the drug cocktail by an unqualified medical examiner, to botched executions carried out by untrained prison guards, to the reality that many on death row are not who they once were—Lain invites us to grapple with what the death penalty says about the state, about justice, and about us.Corinna Lain is a law professor, former prosecutor, and one of the nation’s leading death penalty scholars. With nearly two decades of legal and academic expertise, her research has illuminated the systemic flaws and hidden mechanisms of capital punishment in the United States. Her latest book, Secrets of the Killing State: The Untold Story of Lethal Injection, draws on legal records, personal testimony, and theological reflection to expose how executions are carried out—and at what moral cost. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Disarming Leviathan podcast, Caleb Campbell talks with John Thielepape, a pastor and community leader from North Texas who now works with the Multifaith Neighbors Network and LocalNet. John shares how his team is helping churches and local institutions respond to political polarization, extremism, and social fragmentation. Drawing from his experience managing a community response project in Tarrant County, Texas, John explains how practical tools like the Peacemakers Toolkit and conversation action cards were developed to equip pastors and laypeople for everyday peacemaking. The conversation explores how belonging, trust, and listening can help provide “off-ramps” from radicalization and how discipleship rooted in the way of Jesus can reframe our engagement with those shaped by fear, division, or conspiracy thinking.About John John Thielepape (pronounced Tee-lee-pap) has served as the Director of Missions for the Parker Baptist Association since 2006, supporting Southern Baptist churches in Parker County, Texas—just west of the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex.Originally from Nashville, Tennessee, John now lives in Weatherford, Texas with his wife Charlotte, a retired public school educator. He holds a Bachelor’s degree in Organizational Management, a Master of Divinity, and a Doctor of Ministry focused on Faith Development Theory. Find the Peacemakers toolkit at https://mfnn.org/resource/peacemakers-toolkit/ Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In a time when influence is currency and spiritual leaders are often shaped by worldly ambition, Kyle Strobel invites us to consider a different path: the cruciform way of the Lamb. Drawing from his book The Way of the Dragon or the Way of the Lamb and years of spiritual, theological reflection, Kyle explores how Christian leaders are tempted to use manipulative, domineering, and even demonic forms of power to achieve good ends—and why that inevitably corrodes the gospel. About KyleDr. Kyle Strobel is a spiritual theologian, writer, and speaker focused on the intersection of spiritual formation and Christian leadership. He serves as an associate professor of spiritual theology at Talbot School of Theology and is the co-author of The Way of the Dragon or the Way of the Lamb, a provocative exploration of power in the church. A scholar of Jonathan Edwards and co-host of several reflective podcasts, Kyle brings academic depth and pastoral sensitivity to questions of character, formation, and the dangers of worldly success in ministry. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

Episode note: Apologies for the sound quality. We had some technical difficulties and recorded this on a sub-par recording platform (the free kind ;-) Huge thanks to Chris for being so gracious and adjusting to make this interview happen!In this compelling conversation, Old Testament scholar and missiologist Christopher J. H. Wright unpacks the Bible’s warnings about idolatry—especially its political forms. Drawing from his book Here Are Your Gods, Wright explains how ancient Israel’s struggle with Baal worship mirrors modern Christian nationalism, prosperity theology, and culture war tribalism. He challenges the transactional logic of false gods, the allure of national deities, and the temptation to baptize political power with religious language. With wisdom, warmth, and prophetic clarity, Wright invites us back to a vision of the living God rooted not in empire or economics, but in justice, humility, and love.About ChrisDr. Christopher J. H. Wright is a renowned Old Testament scholar, theologian, and international voice in Christian mission. He serves as the Global Ambassador and Ministry Director of the Langham Partnership, founded by John Stott, and is the author of numerous influential books, including The Mission of God, Here Are Your Gods, and The Old Testament in Seven Sentences. A passionate advocate for biblical justice, global Christianity, and the missional reading of Scripture, Wright combines rigorous scholarship with pastoral heart. He also hosts the podcast On Mission with Chris Wright, where he highlights voices from the Majority World church. His work can be found at ChristopherJHWright.com and langham.org. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, Old Testament scholar Tremper Longman III joins the show to unpack how Scripture can shape our public and political imagination without succumbing to partisanship or Christian nationalism. Drawing on decades of biblical scholarship, Longman explores how the Bible offers moral and theological wisdom—not direct public policy—guiding Christians toward faithful engagement in a pluralistic society. From discussing the misapplication of Old Testament law to confronting modern idolatry in politics, this conversation challenges listeners to resist culture war mentalities, abandon proof-texting, and pursue a gospel-centered posture of humility, repentance, and love in the public square.Check out our website at DisarmingLeviathan.comAbout Tremper Tremper Longman III is a distinguished Old Testament scholar and the author or co-author of over 30 books on biblical interpretation, wisdom literature, and theological engagement with culture. Formerly the Robert H. Gundry Professor of Biblical Studies at Westmont College, he has also taught at Westminster Theological Seminary and served as a visiting professor at institutions around the world, including in Korea and China. Known for his work on Ecclesiastes, Psalms, and the Song of Songs, Longman is a trusted voice on how Scripture informs not only personal faith but also our public and political lives. He is particularly passionate about helping Christians read the Bible with wisdom, rejecting simplistic proof-texting and advocating for an informed, humble engagement with today’s cultural and political challenges. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

Special Episode! In early 2025, Pastor Gary Mason visited Phoenix for a conference. Caleb joined Lisa Jernigan and Vermon Pierre for a conversation with Gary about his experience pastoring during the Irish Troubles. This discussion weaves together global insights and local applications for fostering Jesus-centered reconciliation. Together, they reflect on how faith communities can become catalysts for healing in divided times.About Gary:Rev. Dr. Gary Mason is a Methodist minister and founder of Rethinking Conflict, a Belfast-based initiative focused on reconciliation and peacebuilding. He played a pivotal pastoral role during the Irish Troubles, helping to bridge deep divisions between Protestant and Catholic communities in Northern Ireland. With decades of experience in political peacemaking, Gary now advises governments, faith leaders, and community organizations around the world. He is recognized globally for his work in conflict resolution and the role of faith in healing fractured societies.About Lisa:Lisa Jernigan is the co-founder and executive director of Amplify Peace, a global movement dedicated to promoting peacemaking through education, immersive experiences, and community engagement. With decades of experience in church leadership and global missions, Lisa empowers individuals and churches to be transformative agents of peace and justice. Her work spans international conflict zones and domestic communities alike, with a focus on elevating marginalized voices. Lisa is also a sought-after speaker and podcast host committed to reimagining leadership through the lens of compassion and equity.About Vermon:Pastor Vermon Pierre is the lead pastor of Roosevelt Community Church in downtown Phoenix, Arizona, where he is committed to gospel-centered ministry and multi-ethnic community transformation. A graduate of Princeton University and Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Vermon is also a thought leader in the areas of racial reconciliation and justice within the church. He is the author of Dearly Beloved and serves with The Gospel Coalition, contributing to national conversations on Christian ethics, leadership, and urban ministry. Through preaching, mentoring, and public engagement, Vermon fosters a church culture grounded in both biblical truth and restorative action. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, pastor and theologian David Fitch joins Caleb Campbell to explore the nature of power from a biblical perspective. Drawing from his book Reckoning with Power, Fitch outlines the distinction between worldly power—marked by coercion and control—and godly power—defined by presence, mutuality, and love. With insight drawn from scripture, history, and modern-day examples, he challenges the church to reject the allure of political dominance and instead embody the relational, redemptive power of Christ. The conversation also tackles the role of ideology, division in the church, and practical ways Christians can resist power grabs and live faithfully in today’s cultural climate.About David:David Fitch is a theologian, pastor, and professor passionate about equipping the church to live faithfully in a fractured world. He holds the Lindner Chair of Evangelical Theology at Northern Seminary in Chicago and is the author of several influential books, including The Church of Us vs. Them, The End of Evangelicalism?, and Reckoning with Power. Rooted in the Anabaptist, Holiness, and Pentecostal traditions, Fitch brings a unique perspective that bridges academic theology and pastoral practice. His work often centers on power, ideology, and the church’s witness in a post-Christendom culture. He writes regularly at his Substack, “Fitch’s Provocations,” and is a sought-after speaker on faith, politics, and church renewal. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe