Disarming Leviathan Podcast

In this episode, Dr. Vincent Bacote offers a thoughtful and theologically grounded vision for civic engagement shaped by the character of Christ. He challenges listeners to reject both Christian triumphalism and political withdrawal, advocating instead for a kingdom-oriented public witness that seeks the good of others. Drawing from his work in ethics, political theology, and his recent documentary Black + Evangelical, Bacote addresses power, integrity, institutional engagement, and the importance of discernment in advocacy. He invites Christians to see politics not as ultimate but as a space of provisional service, where we gesture toward the coming Kingdom through faithful, humble presence in public life.About VinceDr. Vincent Bacote is Professor of Theology and the Director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics at Wheaton College, where he has taught since 2000. He is the author of The Political Disciple: A Theology of Public Life and numerous articles on theology, culture, and public ethics. Dr. Bacote is also the narrator and co-creator of the documentary Black + Evangelical, which explores the lived experiences of Black Christians within evangelical institutions. A frequent conference speaker and commentator, he writes at vincentbacote.com and is known for equipping the church to engage faithfully in political and cultural life without falling into ideological captivity. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, Joash Thomas challenges Western Christians to recover a holistic vision of justice rooted in the way of Jesus. Drawing from his new book The Justice of Jesus, Joash contrasts retributive and restorative justice, highlights the global church’s theological depth, and critiques the “colonizer’s gospel” that prioritizes soul salvation over bodily and communal healing. He explores how colonization, individualism, and Christian nationalism have distorted the church’s witness, and offers a practical, hopeful path forward that centers marginalized neighbors, deepens civic discipleship, and calls the church to follow the Spirit’s lead toward holistic restoration.About JoashJoash Thomas is a Canadian-based speaker, advocate, and ordained minister focused on biblical justice, global theology, and civic discipleship. A former political consultant in Georgia, he now works at the intersection of faith and international human rights. Joash is the author of The Justice of Jesus: Liberating Our Broken Communities, Healing the Oppressed, and Redeeming Our Politics, and he leads weekly reflections through his Substack, Jesus, Justice, and Joash. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

The Disarming Leviathan podcast returns with a new season focused on helping Christians navigate political discipleship and civic engagement in a polarized world.In this preview episode, host Caleb Campbell introduces upcoming guests—including Dr. Carmen Imes, Dr. Vince Bacote, and Joash Thomas—and outlines the season’s goal: equipping listeners to bear faithful witness to the Kingdom of God while loving their Christian nationalist neighbors, especially during the relational tensions of the holiday season. Check out the Ministry Leader’s Companion to Disarming Leviathan (now available with training videos). Use the code Levi25 for 20% off and a chance to win your very own Levi (the most disarming Leviathan around).Also, you are invited to the Communities of Flourishing conference in Phoenix on February 28, featuring speakers Malcolm Foley, Kit Danley, Linda Morris, David Swanson, and Skye Jethani. Buy your tickets by Dec 23rd to receive the Advent discount! Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of Disarming Leviathan, biblical scholar Dr. Carmen Joy Imes joins Caleb Campbell to unpack her latest book, Becoming God’s Family: Why the Church Still Matters. Together, they explore how the Bible casts a radical vision of the church as a true spiritual family—one that defies the shallow belonging offered by partisan movements, nationalism, and consumer identity. Imes argues that the sibling language of the New Testament is not metaphorical but mission-critical: believers are called to live as brothers and sisters with real reciprocity, responsibility, and hospitality. She names the dangers of authoritarian leadership and culture war churches, while offering a better path—one where diverse believers share life, worship, and bread, even across political and class divides. Dr. Carmen Joy Imes:Dr. Carmen Joy Imes is Associate Professor of Old Testament at Biola University and a leading voice in biblical theology and public discipleship. She is the author of Bearing God’s Name, Being God’s Image, and her newest release, Becoming God’s Family: Why the Church Still Matters (IVP, 2024). Her work traces major biblical themes through Scripture to address contemporary challenges facing the church, including isolation, authoritarianism, and political idolatry. Dr. Imes also produces weekly content on her YouTube series Torah Tuesday, writes on Substack, and speaks widely at churches, conferences, and seminaries. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this special crossover episode, Caleb joins a conversation with scholars Paul D. Miller, David Koyzis, and Michael W. Austin to help the church understand and respond to Christian Nationalism. Together they unpack what Christian Nationalism is, how it differs from patriotism, and why it poses serious challenges to the gospel’s witness. They also explore related topics like Abraham Kuyper’s sphere sovereignty, the Seven Mountain Mandate, and natural law, offering clarity for pastors, lay leaders, and everyday believers seeking faithful civic engagement.Co-hosted by the J29 Coalition, this episode serves as an “Evangelical’s Guide to American Christian Nationalism,” a practical primer for those wanting to move beyond fear and toward a political discipleship rooted in love of God and neighbor. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this special episode, Caleb joins the team from Bodies Behind the Bus for a conversation about faith, justice, and compassion in the face of political division. Together, they share a joint fundraiser supporting a DACA recipient fighting to stay with their family in the U.S.As we enter this season, we can be about the business of loving our neighbor through acts of service, generosity, and kindness. Please consider donating to ease the burden for an immigrant family with DACA status pursuing legal pathways to safety.To donate and support the family mentioned in this episode, click here.Over the next few weeks, the Disarming Leviathan Podcast will feature collaborative projects like this one, with new interviews launching in the new year. Subscribe on Substack or visit disarmingleviathan.com to stay connected. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribeIn this episode, Phil Herndon examines how purveyors of American Christian Nationalism leverage the emotions of their audiences to gain allegiance, power, and money.This episode will not only help you recognize when your loved ones are experiencing emotions like rage, anxiety, and fear, but also provide you with practical tools for fostering peaceful, constructive conversations.About PhilPhil uses a dynamic approach to help his clients recover their hearts and redeem their stories. His therapeutic approach is grounded in the Spiritual Root System™, and is informed by the work of Irvin Yalom, Curt Thompson, Dan Siegel, and Dan Allender. He also integrates perspectives from Judeo-Christian traditions, existential philosophy, and pastoral care. Phil works with individuals who have lost their way through addiction, anxiety, depression, struggles with spirituality, or burnout to walk them through the tumultuous and scary times that are so common to the human experience.Phil worked in the trucking business through college and after college until finally realizing his true passion was helping people walk through difficulties and heartache. He completed graduate school in 1992 with a Master of Arts degree in counseling and religious education.He served as a pastor in Texas for 15 years until joining the Center for Professional Excellence in 2005 where he served as Clinical Director until 2020. Phil became the Clinical Director and co-owner of (what is now) River Tree in 2020 and loves his role in developing, encouraging, and equipping the staff as they walk with people through their life journeys. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribeIn this episode of Disarming Leviathan, Caleb Campbell speaks with Holly Berkley Fletcher about her journey from missionary kid in Kenya to CIA analyst to outspoken critic of Christian nationalism. Holly reflects on her evangelical upbringing, her experiences with authoritarian regimes, and how the language of faith is often weaponized to serve political power. The conversation dives into her personal reckoning with evangelicalism, the ethical challenges of public service, and her fierce commitment to democracy, justice, and telling the truth—even when it's costly.About Holly: Holly Berkley Fletcher is a writer, historian, and former CIA analyst who brings a unique voice to conversations about faith, politics, and public life. Raised as a missionary kid in Kenya and trained as an American historian, Holly spent nearly two decades working as an Africa analyst for the CIA. She now writes at the intersection of theology, democracy, and justice, contributing regularly to The Bulwark and her Substack, A Zebra Without Stripes. Her forthcoming book, The Missionary Kids, explores the personal and political legacy of evangelical missions and what it means to grow up in a faith tradition grappling with power. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

Caleb joins Dr. Jemar Tisby for a joint podcast that explores the history of American Christian Nationalism and the church and ways that we can engage those who are imbibing this harmful ideology. About Jemar TisbyJemar Tisby (BA, University of Notre Dame; MDiv, Reformed Theological Seminary) s the New York Times bestselling author of The Color of Compromise and the award-winning How to Fight Racism. He is a historian who studies race, religion, and social movements, and serves as a professor at Simmons College of Kentucky, a historically Black college. He is also the founder of The Witness, Inc. an organization dedicated to Black uplift from a Christian perspective. He has written for national news outlets such as The Atlantic, the Washington Post, and the Religion News Service. He has offered television commentary on CNN and is frequently called upon to provide expert insight on current events related to race and Christianity. He has spoken nationwide at colleges, universities, and other organizations.About Caleb CampbellPastor Campbell graduated Summa Cum Laude with a Master of Arts in Ministry from Phoenix Seminary in 2015. Caleb is currently a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary. He has served at Desert Springs Bible Church, in Phoenix, AZ since 2006, serving as Lead Pastor since 2015. He also serves on the board of United Pastors of Arizona, is the state-wide regional director of the Surge Network, and is one of the founders of the J29 Coalition. He has spoken at events hosted by Acts 29, the African American Christian Clergy Coalition, American Values Coalition, Surge Network, Grand Canyon University, Converge Arizona, Young Life, and Phoenix Seminary Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

Matthew D. Taylor stops by the pod to discuss the recent rise of independent charismatic leaders promoting American Christian Nationalism. Matt helps us understand some of the movement’s more prominent […]The post The Rise of Charismatic Christian Nationalism w/ Matthew D. Taylor first appeared on Disarming Leviathan. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribeDr. Katharine Hayhoe shares her experience as a climate scientist and gives some practical coaching on how we can cultivate healthy conversations with friends and family with whom we fundamentally disagree. About KatharineKatharine Hayhoe is a climate scientist and chief scientist for The Nature Conservancy. She is also the Endowed Professor in Public Policy and Public Law and Paul W. Horn Distinguished Professor at Texas Tech University. She has been named a United Nations Champion of the Earth and one of Time’s 100 Most Influential People, and serves as the climate ambassador for the World Evangelical Alliance. Katharine was a lead author for the US Second, Third, and Fourth National Climate Assessments, hosts the PBS digital series Global Weirding, and has written for The New York Times. Her TED Talk “The Most Important Thing You Can Do to Fight Climate Change: Talk About It” has been viewed over 5 million times. She has a BSc in physics and astronomy from the University of Toronto and an MS and a PhD in atmospheric science from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe—Pastor and author David Swanson joins us for a discussion about the ways that racism, tribalism, and nationalism are impacting the American Church, and how we can work to be peacemakers in the midst of division. About David SwansonDavid is an author and the founding pastor of New Community Covenant Church who lives with his family on the South Side of Chicago. He is the founder and CEO of New Community Outreach, a non-profit organization dedicated to healing community trauma through restorative practices.David’s first book, Rediscipling the White Church: From Cheap Diversity to True Solidarity was published with InterVarsity Press in 2020. His forthcoming book with IVP, Plundered: The Tangled Roots of Racial and Environmental Injustice, will be published in October, 2024.David is a former Director of Church Planting for the Evangelical Covenant Church. He is a graduate of Montreat College (BS, 1999), Wheaton College Graduate School (MA, 2003), and North Park Theological Seminary (MDiv, 2023). He keeps track of what he’s reading here and on most Tuesday mornings you’ll find him wandering around Jackson Park looking for birds. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribePastor Steve Bezner joins us to discuss how American culture has influenced the American Church's view of Jesus. We explore some of the distorted views of Jesus, including 'Christian Nationalist Jesus.' He also gives some coaching on how we can invite people back to a robust, biblical view of Jesus. Preorder Steven’s book, Your Jesus is Too American today! About Steve BeznerSteve Bezner (PhD, Baylor University) is senior pastor of Houston Northwest Church in Houston, Texas. He is a local leader and participant in Multi-Faith Neighbors Network, where he builds bridges with Muslims and Jews, and he serves on the board of the Houston Church Planting Network. He also trains church planters through Glocalnet, serves on the executive committee of Texas Baptists, and is an adjunct professor at George W. Truett Theological Seminary at Baylor University. Bezner lives in Houston with his wife and two sons. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe—Bible scholar Dr. Timothy Gombis joins Caleb for an exploration of the themes of power and government in the New Testament and how they can shape our understanding of American Christian Nationalism. Caleb shares a few pieces from his Christian Nationalist Bible collection.About Timothy GombisTimothy G. Gombis (PhD, University of St. Andrews, Scotland) is professor of New Testament at Grand Rapids Theological Seminary, in Grand Rapids, MI. He is author of Paul: A Guide for the Perplexed (T&T Clark, 2010) and The Drama of the Ephesians: Participating in the Triumph of God (IVP Academic, 2010). He regularly writes about Christian identity, biblical studies, books, movies, music, sports, and culture on his blog, Faith Improvised ( https://timgombis.com). Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe—Dr. Dennis Edwards guides us in exploring how the New Testament can shape our understanding of and engagement in politics today.More about Dr. Dennis EdwardsDennis Edwards is the Vice President for Church Relations and Dean of the Seminary and is the author of 1 Peter in the Story of God Bible Commentary series (Zondervan), What is the Bible and How Do We Understand It? (Herald Press), and Might from the Margins: The Gospel’s Power to Turn the Tables on Injustice (Herald Press). Dennis has been married to Susan Steele Edwards since 1982. They are the parents of four children, and grandparents of four.You can find more on Dennis at https://www.revdrdre.com/ Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

This is a rerelease of an earlier episode featuring Tim Alberta.Stay tuned to the Disarming Leviathan Podcast. New Episodes coming in a few weeks!Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

Hey friends,I hope you’re having a great summer. I wanted to take a moment to share a quick update on both the Disarming Leviathan podcast and the broader ministry.Podcast UpdateFirst, the podcast. I’m pretty much doing this on my own — no production team, no fancy strategy. If we did have seasons, I think we’d be wrapping up either our second or third season right about now.The way I’ve structured it is pretty simple: I reach out to people I respect — those I’ve learned from or hope to learn from — and record conversations with them. We’ve just wrapped up the most recent batch of those interviews. I have more great discussions lined up for later this summer and into the fall, and we’ll start rolling those out in the fall.In the meantime, we’ll be reposting a few past episodes that still speak to our moment. If you’re newer to the podcast, these may be brand new to you — think of them like those reruns of old sitcoms that feel fresh if you missed them the first time around.Ministry UpdateSecond, a quick update on the ministry itself. We recently released the Ministry Leader’s Companion Guide to Disarming Leviathan. It’s available on our website — disarmingleviathan.com. If you’re a pastor or ministry leader, I’d love for you to check it out. It’s designed to help you navigate conversations with people caught up in Christian Nationalism with wisdom, clarity, and love.Book UpdateAlso worth celebrating: Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor just turned one! The response to the book has far exceeded my expectations. I’m so grateful for your support, for spreading the word, and for sharing how the book is helping you in your ministry and relationships.If you’d like to help spread the word, reviews on Amazon or Goodreads really help others find the book. Sharing it on social media and tagging me or our Disarming Leviathan pages also helps. Also, I’d really love to hear how the book has been meaningful to you or how you’ve put it into practice. You can share with me on social media or email me at caleb@disarmingleviathan.com.Thanks for Your SupportFinally, if you haven’t already, subscribing to the podcast on your favorite platform and leaving a rating or review helps more people find these conversations.Thank you for your ongoing support — for listening, sharing, praying, and striving to love our Christian nationalist neighbors with the love of Christ. When I started this ministry, I honestly didn’t know what to expect. It’s been humbling and encouraging to see how God is using it.I’m grateful for you and praying that as we continue this work together, God would bless and keep you in the months and years to come.Jesus loves you so much!- Caleb E. Campbell Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

Political theorist Laurie Johnson joins Caleb Campbell to unpack the deeper forces driving America’s culture wars and ideological divisions. Drawing from her book The Gap in God's Country, Laurie shares her own political and spiritual journey—from Fox News conservative to a more reflective and empathetic posture—exploring how economic upheaval, social dislocation, and a loss of place have fostered political extremism and spiritual confusion. Together, they explore how modern life has misenchanted us, severed our communal ties, and made us vulnerable to ideological possession. Laurie offers wisdom on how we might engage angry or radicalized loved ones—not with facts alone, but through empathy, relationship, and a shared search for meaning in a fractured age.Dr. Laurie M. Johnson is a political theorist, author, and public educator whose work explores the intersections of political identity, spirituality, and social dislocation in modern America. A professor of political science with a Ph.D. from Georgetown University, she has written extensively on extremism, ideology, and the psychological roots of political division, including in her books Ideological Possession and the Rise of the New Right and The Gap in God’s Country. Laurie is also a co-founder of the Morin Academy, inspired by the Catholic Worker movement, and hosts a YouTube channel on political philosophy. Her work invites readers and listeners to explore how economics, place, and identity formation shape our public lives—and how empathy and rootedness might offer a way forward. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of Disarming Leviathan, death penalty scholar and former prosecutor Corinna Lain joins Caleb to discuss her groundbreaking book Secrets of the Killing State: The Untold Story of Lethal Injection. With a blend of research and personal reflection, Lain uncovers the history, flawed protocols, and moral implications of lethal injection as America’s primary method of execution. From the invention of the drug cocktail by an unqualified medical examiner, to botched executions carried out by untrained prison guards, to the reality that many on death row are not who they once were—Lain invites us to grapple with what the death penalty says about the state, about justice, and about us.Corinna Lain is a law professor, former prosecutor, and one of the nation’s leading death penalty scholars. With nearly two decades of legal and academic expertise, her research has illuminated the systemic flaws and hidden mechanisms of capital punishment in the United States. Her latest book, Secrets of the Killing State: The Untold Story of Lethal Injection, draws on legal records, personal testimony, and theological reflection to expose how executions are carried out—and at what moral cost. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan: Missionary to Christian Nationalists at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe