Frank and Stan Chats

This week the two gents chat to James Eldon, Principal at Manchester Academy, a member of the Headteachers' Roundtable and advocate for the thinking around the recently announced MBacc. The chat begins with Stan reflecting on the power of Ministers in ordering or demanding that Ofsted inspects a school where a story about a student identifying as a Cat ran wild in newspapers recently. James considers the implications of this event on the most senior leader in the school and why these issues hinder colleagues from taking the most senior position in our schools. He then looks at the retention of staff in general and explains why change in complex schools is often not in line with the regularity of Ofsted inspections. Frank then applauds the latest report on EDI from the English and Wales Cricket Board. he draws attention to the challenges faced by those wanting to progress in the sport from poorer communities. James concludes the chat by explaining why he got involved in the MBacc and why it is an attempt to try and offer a more meaningful route for those not wanting a purely academic one. Great chat, even if we say so ourselves. Hope you enjoy. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is a really important weekly chat because every year we invite Carolyn Eyre, a professional colleague well informed in the area of child protection and safeguarding. Her chats always cover areas that we have missed, and highlights changes that are afoot. She believes we are at the start of a storm, and many appear unaware that the storm is coming. Stan considers the likely impact of the government setting an expected national standard of 75% for children to reach 'a good level of development' in Early Years. He references Goodhart's law, which states, "when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure". Carolyn then explains what changes and proposed laws, currently being progressed through Parliament, will have a significant impact on Keeping Children Safe. She also unpicks skilfully Ofsted's weaknesses in how safeguarding is inspected. Frank then considers the research published by the University of Manchester in October 2025, 'Lost learning: Prevalence, inequalities and outcomes of internal exclusion in mainstream secondary schools' by Emma Thornton, Qiqi Cheng, Ola Demkowicz and Neil Humphrey, which examines the reasons for isolation, who are more often given it and its impact on those students and those who are not. The results are surprising and challenging.You would expect us to say how good the chat is, but I suspect there is quite a lot in this discussion which would be of interest to many in schools, parents/carers and education leaders in general. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week the gents chat with Alex Howarth, a Director of a large accountancy business and proud father of three young girls. Stan kicks things off considering the use of 'case sampling' in the new Ofsted school inspection Framework. He's concerned with the approach and how it could lead to weak evaluations by inspectors. Alex then reflects on the shift to more practical mathematics contained in the Francis Curriculum Review. Frank then considers the importance of oracy in the future and how disappointing it is to see the emphasis on traditional examinations being maintained. He suggests this counters the shift for oracy to be an integral part of all subjects. The chat then considers the Engalnd cricket team's chances of regaining the Ashes this winter. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It is a pleasure to welcome Chris Zarraga the Director of Schools North East, the largest regional organisation supporting schools in the country. We also become aware that SNE also supports a number of special schools. We discuss the origins of SNE and Chris' career journey before we venture into what's caught Stan's eyes this week? He focuses on Martin's Law and the implications it has for school leadership. Chris then reflects on the importance of relationships and how this is always a key feature of the major events SNE organises. Frank then closes the chat by considering the insight offered by Sam Gibbs in a recent TES article considering what effective CPD for teachers may look like. It's a wide ranging chat with much reflection on previous experiences as senior leaders and why having a colleague or at least someone leaders can turn to when requiring personal and professional support. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The 18th Spotlight edition of the Frank and Stan Chat looks at assessment and what digital leadership involves when we chat with Rosie Clayton. Rosie, until recently, was a key player in the Re-Thinking Assessment Group and has recently moved into a senior role at the Transforming Learning Group. We consider the development of new approaches to assessment and the future role of AI. We also revisit the amazing work Rosie led on in creating a Learner Profile that provides a mechanism for a fuller range of skills, expertise, experiences, and interests to be recorded. https://rethinkingassessment.com/learner-profile/We then shift on to her new role and consider some of the challenges in progressing a digital shift at individual schools.A great chat. Hope you enjoy it. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Frank met Chris Jones, CEO of SMART Curriculum, a couple of years ago. We've been trying to secure a guest slot on the Frank and Stan Chat for a little while. He's a very busy man, so we are delighted to have him join us for what proves to be an illuminating and far-reaching discussion.Stan gets things rolling by questioning the central costs of trusts compared to those of the local authorities in the past. Chris is well-informed on such matters and explains that comparisons are tricky because the actual personal salaries are not made public. Frank considers the growth of specialist subject advisers on permanent contracts in central teams and wonders the merits of this approach.Chris then reflects on the encouraging news that more political parties including the government, want to strengthen the public perception of vocational pathways. Chris prefers to use the word 'professional' rather than 'vocational'. We then consider how important it is to view this issue across all phases of education, rather than it being seen as a Post-16 issue. Stan and Frank then gain valuable insights into the number of L2 and L3 courses available and the proportion that are 'vocational'.Frank closes the chat by reflecting on a paper he wrote this week about the School Curriculum Award and how it resonated with Chris' weekly newsletter that covered the curriculum and accountability developments in Estonia. Really interesting stuff, and makes clear to both Stan and Frank how fortunate they are to have such brilliant guests each week. It is some of the best professional development they experience and it's free!!!Enjoy. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We are delighted to welcome back Ian Coulson, a former Headteacher and now a school improvement adviser. He was previously a guest in December 2020 when he was managing the trials and tribulations of DfE guidance for school leaders during the Covid pandemic. He is now the Founder of Teaching Made Simple Ltd, an advisory organisation for schools. He is at pains to explain he doesn't believe teaching is simple, but by trying to focus on the most important things, it can be made more manageable.Stan gets things rolling by reflecting on the Good Hearts Law which ostensibly is “When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.” In other words, when we set one specific goal, people will tend to push towards that objective regardless of the consequences. This leads to problems when they neglect other equally important aspects of a situation.Ian then reflects on how he used self evaluation as a tool for improvement and why he believes it remains a key element of improvement. He also notes how Ofsted's new Framework references it without explaining its importance, particularly during the initial call with inspectors.Frank finishes the chat by considering the importance of community and why trust/school leaders need to step up to play a leading role in the elements that can affect children and young people's learning. He references an amazing conference he attended last week organised by Forum Strategy.It's a fascinating chat, or at least it was for the two regular gents.Enjoy! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We are so fortunate to have highly regarded experts in their field who come along to be a guest on our chat. This week is a good example. The two gents are joined by Dr Ronda Zelezny-Green, the Chair of the Board at InnovateHer, as well as a digital changemaker creating social learning systems to empower Black people, women, people with disabilities, and others who may be marginalised in the technology and education sectors. She has nearly 20 years of professional experience spanning five continents from the public, private, and civil society sectors. A Black and Indigenous woman excelling with ADHD, Ronda also has extensive experience in delivering racial equity and justice and gender with global perspectives. This week, she draws attention to some recent research from the LSE into Generative AI and how it is being used by young people and influencing their parents and carers. She encourages us to consider how well AI is being deployed in England's schools. Stan and Frank reflect on how Ofsted's new Toolkit could be used (with care) for improving school self-evaluation and how inspectors are reacting to the webinars the inspectorate has recently organised. The statement Frank reads out may not be reflective of all who attend, but it is not the only negative report. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This special SPOTLIGHT considers how human resources has changed over the years. Frank and Stan are fortunate to be able to chat with Juliet Caunt, a former Director of People in a large multi-academy trust and who now offers consultancy to a wide range of organisations. We consider how the role of HR has changed over the years, some of the difficulties senior managers experience and how HR professionals help all parties. We also reflect on how Juliet extended HR services in a rapidly growing trust as well as consider some research she is currently undertaking into how trusts use staff benefits to improve retention and recruitment. It's a good 'un. Enjoy. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Frank and Stan have been working hard to secure a slot in Paul Cherpeau's diary for close on a year. As the CEO of the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce he's a very busy colleague. Frank and Paul are members of the independent Liverpool Education Board and have discussed how best to improve the employability of young people in the city on many occasions. The chat does not disappoint as Paul explains how the Chamber works to support local businesses in the Liverpool City Region by providing a strong networking community, advocating for their interests with government bodies, offering business support services like international trade assistance and skills development, and promoting inward investment to foster economic growth and create jobs. The Chamber understands its wider role in ensuring local people gain the knowledge, skills and attitudes to enter employment as well as to have an enjoyable and fulfilling life. Paul was at Everton FC's new stadium yesterday, celebrating 175 years of the Chamber in the city with the Princess Royal. He explains how the Chamber has evolved and is continuing to play a crucial role in regenerating the city. He has some interesting insights into the role of entrepreneurship and how those who become successful without formal qualifications are important but they are the exception rather than the rule.It's a fascinating chat. We are convinced many will gain a deeper understanding of the importance of effective business and education engagement for citizens of all ages.He's agreed to come back in 2026. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Well, who would have predicted the weekly Frank and Stan Chat would reach its seventh academic year. Back in May 2020, the two gents were unable to meet for a beer, so decided to chat using Zoom and press the record button as a means of saving our thoughts on the ongoing pandemic. Putting it on Youtube without knowing what we were doing enabled viewers to watch and follow. We are now at edition 231, with a further 16 specialist SPOTLIGHT editions so we are getting close to 250! With guests lined up into 2026, all being well, we will be heading towards 300 by the end of 2026.We are privileged to be joined by Dennis Sherwood for this edition. Dennis was our first SPOTLIGHT guest in July 2023. It was one of the most interesting yet deeply worrying editions because he explained how and when he started to lose confidence in the work of OFQUAL. Look it up.Dennis explains how he has felt while students have recently received their external national examination results and why he feels so disappointed with OFQUAL especially the complaint system. Stan then considers the calculation that by the not so new Behaviour Tzar that the Behaviour crisis 'means every pupil loses 45 days of learning a year'. Frank then considers whether the focus on Islamist terrorism is the right one for the Prevent programme and for the recent Ofsted training when the DfE's own data suggests something rather different.Topical and challenging. Hope you enjoy it. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The final weekly Frank and Stan Chat chat of the 2024-2025 academic year sees Lisa Lea-Weston return to discuss what's caught her eye this week as well as update us on her work on supervision, Lisa was a guest last year and made a very positive impression in the focus her work provides on supporting senior leaders. Interestingly, the focus of her work is now developing to offer supervision to make more staff, with different levels of responsibility, across schools and trusts. Our chat considers how much senior education leaders in government and those in parliament at high office might benefit from some supervision support. If you know that this is currently offered please let us know.Stan reflects on the television series "House' which stars Hugh Laurie and considers whether the diagnostic approach he uses in his imaginary role might be useful for resolving some engrained education issues. Frank then considers the differences he has noticed in how education in Finland is offered, how it creates a high skilled and highly valued profession for the most able and talented. Lisa reflects on the changing nature of the support she is offering and how it is evenly split between those who are currently experiencing high levels of distress as opposed to those who want to identify an approach that can help them cope better with challenges when they emerge.It's a cracking chat and emphasises once again how fortunate we are to have such wonderful guests who offer some of the best free professional development for us and we hope for the viewers and listeners.We will be recording three SPOTLIGHT editions of our chat in the next few weeks covering Tutoring, Human Resources and the accuracy of our examination system (or not) and will release these during August and early September. We are back on the weekly chat for 2025-2026 on 10th September.Best wishesFrank and Stan Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week we are delighted to have John Malynn OBE, a former senior Civil Servant at the DfE and Ofsted joining us. He is well versed in the delicate discussions that take place, often behind closed doors, in ensuring policy is converted into practice. With some major policy changes this week being announced by the government concerning welfare reform, he is well placed to comment.Stan starts proceedings by reflecting on some Y6 pupils he saw locally wearing their 'Leavers 2025' sweatshirts and wondered whether this was signalling too early that the end of their Primary phase of education was now over. We consider how best to use the time between the end of the SATs period and the close of the academic year and whether the examinations are simply unacceptable in terms of providing a balanced education experience.John then reflects on the challenges the Labour government has faced and wonders whether Sir Simon Case was correct when he recently identfied a lack of clarity on the communication front. With an important shift in the welfare reforms this week John wonders whether there is sufficient clarity on what the education reforms are and whether there has been sufficient listening to those delivering the service. Having a large parliamentary majority is clearly not enough to win all arguments.Frank then considers an interesting report from EPI this week called 'Post 16 study programmes – understanding student choices and aspirations'. The report considers the pathways taken by students who were subject to Centre Assessed Grades (CAGs) during Covid. They recommend that 'GCSE English and maths results below grade 4 should only restrict access to level 3 courses where key elements of students’ main study programme are dependent on proficiency to this level' and that many students wanted flexibility in the structure and choices of courses. This presents challenges for the T Level moving forward.The chat ends with us all reflecting on the turmoil at Ofsted and whether there is effective communication from senior managers. All three of us had worked with a former HMCI who was willing to front-up and was rooted in inspection methodology. We felt that this experience and focus might be the missing ingredient.Enjoy! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week the two gents welcome back Rebecca Smith, a Headteacher in a large secondary school in Greater Manchester. Rebecca has been a guest a few times before and was a guest on our 100th edition of the chat in April 2022 alongside Prof Andy Hargreaves and her husband Neil Smith. Frank worked closely with Rebecca when she was a principal at one of the Coop Trust academies, where he witnessed her amazing leadership skills in turning around a school, that was fairly dysfunctional, into an amazing place for young people to learn and for amazing staff to teach.The chat starts with Stan considering how best to keep experienced staff invigorated and enthused about their job. He compares how this is tackled in education compared to football. He wonders whether secondments are the answer. Rebecca explains how she undertakes this challenge in her own setting and then considers the challenges that come from outside of the role and how this affects different staff in different ways.Rebecca then reflects on an article last Sunday in a newspaper which explained how a Boarding school was reverting to giving young boarders access to a landline rather than provide free access to their smart phones. We then consider how effective any approaches that ban use during the school day (as in nearly all schools) where control of their use is unfettered in some households.Frank then considers the challenges that are looming for school leaders in a lack of timeliness from the government. He reflects on the Covid period when guidance from the DfE usually arrived at 6pm on a Friday and then had to be considered and then shared by school leaders with staff in good time for the following week. With delays to the publication of the KCSIE guidance, delays to Ofsted Framework proposals and uncertainty over the timing of the Francis Curriculum Review it is going to be a very challenging autumn term. He notes that Leicestershire schools start their summer break in two week's time!It's a relaxed and enjoyable chat for us. We hope it is useful and interesting for the viewers/listeners. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

A few years after Frank and Stan started their teaching careers they became aware of an education author called Pie Corbett. As there was very little guidance in the area of reading and writing Pie's books became a staple diet for professional development. Now, with over 200 publications, including the seminal 'Talk for Writing' and 'Cats, Hats and Hippos', Pie's extensive and varied career makes him an excellent guest. He doesn't disappoint.Stan considers his wonderful holiday last week which gave him time to reflect on leadership in sport. He mourns the loss of enigmatic leaders and considers how some current managers often lack the clarity of thought and individual approach. Pie then considers a wonderful visit he made to a Primary school in Handsworth where under fresh leadership the school has been transformed. He explains how attention to detail and a consistent personal approach has led to a dramatic improvement in children's experiences and outcomes. Frank closes the chat by considering how important key teachers were in his time at school and how one in particular, Dave Milne, made history relevant, fun and interesting. As it was World Teacher Day it seemed an appropriate way to reflect on the amazing teachers we have been fortunate to work with and observe. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week, with Stan away on holiday enjoying some very hot weather, Frank is joined by Nic Ponsford CEO of the GEC Collective. The GEC is a global community of inclusion and well-being change-makers focused on education, empowerment, and equipping schools and organizations to create more inclusive and equitable environments. They utilize a digital platform and a network of experts to offer resources, data, and action plans to promote diversity and inclusion. This week they published their fascinating report '26000 Voices' so our chat includes a review of some of the findings. It also covers the fascinating career path Nic has engaged in and considers her nervousness as she preps for her Phd viva next week. The chat reflects on the importance of drawing on multiple evidence and data sources to ensure a clear and broad picture is gained of issues children, young people, parents/carers and staff experience. Nic calls this a kaleidoscopic picture. We also discover how some schools in the USA are currently having to traverse the new administration's view on diversity and inclusion and we finish off with consideration of some data analysis undertaken by FFT regarding how many pupils have been affected in Private schools by the government's change on VAT.Hope you enjoy it. We did! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

A riveting, well-informed and insightful chat with Kevin Edward Turner MBE, co-founder and co-artistic director of Company Chameleon, a highly regarded contemporary dance company based in Manchester. Kevin was a student of Frank's when he was a headteacher and re-connected in 2018 when Company Chameleon undertook dance workshops in some of the Coop's academies in Greater Manchester. Kevin explains how his life was transformed and given purpose when the Northern Ballet Theatre Company provided a dance residence at the primary school he was attending. His obvious talent was seen immediately and fostered through the Trafford Dance Group, headed by the amazing Linda Coles. He created Company Chameleon in 2006 and it has grown from strength to strength. he's soon to accompany the dance company on a trip to Japan as part of the UK deputation for the World Expo. He is an inspiration.But his life has been challenging especially when he faced serious mental health issues. The chat covers these and considers how important an active and vibrant arts curriculum is for all pupils and why this is sadly lacking in some schools. Stan reflects on a report published this week that makes clear how serious the drop in engagement is for students when they begin their secondary phase experience. We all offer some reasons for this. sadly, none of us were surprised by the findings.Kevin then reflects on the many years he has engaged with young people at 42nd Street, a charity offering mental health support to young people aged 16-25 years. Yesterday was his final session with the young people. Their response and gratitude for his work were very moving. Kevin also considers the impact of free access to education that exists in Scotland and why this is a powerful force for economic and personal development.Frank closes the chat with a reflection on the latest Sutton trust report that considers where social mobility is most successful. There appears to be a clear link between economic opportunities and the chances of achieving strong improvement in social mobility. He considers the lack of funding for FE and adult education and why the Early Years funding is important in that it supports parents/carers as well as the children.It's a belting chat. We are incredibly proud to be able to chat for around 50 minutes with such inspiring guests. Please share the video with others. The messages about the arts, curriculum access and mental health are apposite. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Just the two gents this week and they consider governance, leadership and the 'fit and proper' test for football, rugby league and MAT leadership. With Salford City Reds facing a winding-up order for non-payment of taxes Stan considers how they got into this position while Frank considers the journey of his beloved Southend Utd which faced similar difficulties recently. They consider the importance of honesty and transparency in leadership and Frank is quick to highlight the work of Prof Marianne Jennings and her book The Seven Signs of Ethical Collapse'. By the way, she's agreed to join our chat, we just need to pin down a date.Frank then reflects on the recent chats with Rebecca Hanson and Aelwyn Pugh and explains why they were so impactful. The chat then considers CEO salaries and the redundancies one high profile MAT is facing and why it feels wrong when senior leaders earn so much.We hope you enjoy it. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Every now and again Frank and Stan give full rein to our guest, especially if they want to share some insight that is challenging or even provocative. This is what happened when Aelwyn Pugh, a former highly experienced HMI joined us again for our weekly chat. Aelwyn had prepared a carefully considered his thoughts on the issue of social mobility and how it had enabled him to progress. He also reflected on the type of education he received and how it enabled him to challenge orthodoxy and helped him to better understand the world. He considers how Germany undertook a deeper soul-searching of their past and how this has ensured they view the world in a more rounded way. Throughout the chat Aelwyn is mindful of the vital role education plays in guiding and supporting young people. He is highly critical of some who view this important role as purely an examination machine. For him, education is so much more. It is a highly thoughtful chat with Aelwyn offering a compelling view of past education mistakes and how things can be improved. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

After a short break the Frank and Stan Chat returns with a familiar guest joining us again. Brian Lightman, the former leader of ASCL (for 6 years) and secondary Headteacher of two Welsh schools, author and education consultant returns to consider - the role of Facebook in deciding on which school to select- the dangers of the current Ofsted inspection proposals- the role of the RISE teams and they intersect with existing school improvement programmes and strategies- the lack of a clear vision for education, and- balancing the budget.The chat ends on a more positive note with better news on teacher recruitment and the possible push for more Drama teachers which may indicate a shift in focus coming through the Francis Curriculum Review.A great way to start the summer series of chats. Enjoy. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.