Getting Unstuck – Cultivating Curiosity

Guest When I sat down with Brew Moscarello, founder of Trico Unlimited, a Vermont-based fly fishing guiding and instruction service, it was clear that his story is about more than guiding—it's about a lifelong relationship with the outdoors. Drawn to Vermont by both snowboarding and fly fishing, Brew found himself immersed in the mountains and rivers that continue to inspire him today. His journey eventually led him into the Orvis organization, where he has turned his passion for the water into a vocation—while still maintaining a deep connection to the slopes. Summary Brew's approach goes beyond technical instruction—he emphasizes presence, patience, and the Zen-like qualities of being on the river. For Brew, guiding is as much about teaching and creating memorable experiences as it is about catching fish. He differentiates himself by leveraging his decades of experience on the Battenkill River, his deep ties to landowners and the community, and a strong instructional style tailored to each client's needs. Conservation and education are central to his mission, from working with the Battenkill Watershed Alliance to coaching a new high school fly-fishing club. Ultimately, Brew sees fly fishing as a way to connect people with nature, themselves, and each other, creating moments of joy, focus, and gratitude that extend far beyond the catch. The Key Takeaway Brew's fly fishing and guiding practice is less about catching fish and more about cultivating presence, patience, and connection with nature and others. Developing respect for the sport, the environment, and education is at the heart of what he does. Social Media Trico Unlimited, 4022 VT-313, Arlington, VT 05250 Brew Moscarello brew@tricounlimited.com (802) 379-2005

Guest Valerie Gordon is a 10-time Emmy-winning television producer with over 20 years of producing and overseeing award-winning content for HBO, ESPN, CBS, and the Olympic Games. She knows what makes a story meaningful and memorable and the incredible power of stories to engage, educate and entertain. An engaging speaker with innovative programming, Valerie offers audiences and individuals the storytelling strategies to stand out, whether they want to land a job, secure a promotion, nail the presentation, close the sale, or plan their next chapter. Summary Valerie and I discuss the importance of storytelling in leadership and how to improve storytelling skills. We dive into her highly readable book FIRE YOUR NARRATOR: A Storyteller's Guide to Getting Out of Your Head and Into Your Life, which explores the impact of our internal communications on external communications. Valerie shares her own internal voice, "Squash," and how it hindered her growth. We explore a few of the ten narrator archetypes and some strategies for reshaping personal narratives and achieving healthier perspectives. The book also combines personal stories, neuroscience, and humor to help readers improve their storytelling skills. References/Links Website: https://thestorytellingstrategist.com/ More on the book: https://thestorytellingstrategist.com/fire-your-narrator/ (Available on Amazon and BN.com) Connect with Valerie on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/valeriejgordon/ Follow The Storytelling Strategist on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheStorytellingStrategist/ on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/storytelling_strategist/

Summary This coming February, Getting Unstuck—Cultivating Curiosity will start its eighth year. My goal with this podcast is to host guests who will make us think, "I didn't know anything about that," or "That's something I hadn't considered," or "I might be able to apply that to some aspect of my life." In each case, "that" refers to the topic being discussed. And the topics will vary widely. Unlike other shows that focus on a single topic, such as politics, entertainment, or leadership, Getting Untuck's focus is eclectic. This year, I offered episodes about how to inspire student curiosity, the healing powers of fly fishing, writing, the Holocaust and World War II, marketing, and a score of other topics. Getting Unstuck—Cultivating Curiosity continues to rank in the top 3 percent of all podcasts globally, where just over 4 million options are vying for your ears' attention. We just published our 392nd episode, which is notable given that most podcasts don't reach ten episodes. I say "we" because a special thanks goes to my engineer, Neil Hughes. He manages all the back-end publishing logistics and makes every episode sound professional. He also welcomes me to pull up a virtual chair for periodic emotional therapy when needed. To say I would be lost without him doesn't begin to do his services justice. As we approach the end of the year, I want to thank you, my listeners. I wouldn't be able to continue doing this show without your interest and support. Thank you.   I'm going to recap 2025 in three parts: Part One: The three episodes that you listened to the most. Part Two: The one episode that was particularly special to me. Part Three: The three most popular backlist episodes. Part One: The three episodes that you listened to the most. (In no particular order.) 1. Episode 344 - "Earthrise"—What Apollo 8 Should Have Taught Us This episode reflects on the Apollo 8 mission's iconic "Earthrise" image in late December 1968 and the turbulent year that preceded it. It highlights enduring lessons on inequality, collective problem-solving, and environmental stewardship. The episode urges renewed respect for history and a commitment to addressing modern challenges with the same ingenuity that defined the space race. This episode's popularity doesn't surprise me, so I'm going to devote next week's episode to replaying it. 2. Episode 348 - Breaking Barriers: Men, Vulnerability and Emotional Growth In this episode, I talked with Bob Reece, a mental health counselor and fly fishing guide, about his work addressing the mental health of men and at-risk teens. We discussed overcoming societal stigmas around vulnerability, providing men with tools to manage emotions, and the transformative impact of connecting with nature through fly fishing to improve relationships and professional lives. Bob emphasized the need to normalize vulnerability among men, challenging traditional notions of masculinity and fostering healthier emotional expression. This episode's popularity did not surprise me, given what I've read about the crisis single white men are experiencing. 3. Episode 369 - From Heart Attack to Health: A Plant-based Transformation In this episode, I talked with Byron Edgington, a Vietnam Veteran and commercial helicopter pilot. Byron shared his journey to a whole food, plant-based diet after a heart attack. He and his wife experienced dramatic health improvements almost immediately, including weight loss and the elimination of prescription medications. Our conversation expanded to explore the environmental impact of meat production, animal cruelty in factory farming, and how food choices can shape personal health and global sustainability. Two other episodes deserve mention. Episode 345 - Living with Purpose—Eastern and Western Insights Into Habits and Growth In this episode, Dr. Tamsin Astor, an author and habit scientist, discussed her approach to habit formation and the integration of Western and Eastern philosophies to promote wellness. Episode 363 - Decoding LinkedIn–Optimizing Your Digital First Impression The popularity of this episode should surprise no one. Here, "LinkedIn Profiler" Tony K. Silver shared LinkedIn optimization strategies focused on capturing attention quickly, using strategic keywords, and creating high-quality, engaging content with clear calls to action for professional success.   Part Two: The one episode that was particularly special to me. Episode 368 - What We Make of Them After participating in New York City's "No Kings" march last spring, I reflected in this episode on the urgency of defending democracy, drawing parallels between the current political climate and that of 1930s Germany. When the march ended, I slipped into a bookstore to warm up and dry off. There I found Remember Us by Robert M. Edsell. The title of the book comes from a moving poem by Archibald MacLeish: "The Young Dead Soldiers Do Not Speak." A few stanzas carry the meaning. Nevertheless they are heard in the still houses: Who has not heard them? They say, Our deaths are not ours; they are yours: They will mean what you make of them They say, Whether our lives and our deaths were for peace And a new hope or for nothing we cannot say: it is you who must say this. We were young, they say. We have died. Remember us. Two of the poem's lines moved me so much that I took the episode title from them. "Our deaths are not ours; they are yours: They will mean what you make of them Remember Us documents twelve lives connected to the American Military Cemetery near the small village of Margraten, Netherlands. Approximately 8,300 Americans who helped liberate the Netherlands from the Nazis and the grip of fascism during World War II are buried there. The cemetery is remarkable because Black American soldiers, who were generally restricted to non-combat support roles, dug the graves under horrific weather conditions. The cemetery is also notable because local Dutch citizens have adopted each grave and visit it weekly. This practice reflects the citizens' ongoing gratitude for the soldiers, affirming that they have heard the voices of the dead. Their visits ensure that the soldiers are always remembered for their sacrifice.   Part Three: The three most popular backlist episodes. (Titles that aired before 1/1/25.) 1. Episode 93 - Reclaiming Our Students I'm not surprised that this episode continues to track after almost five years. Based on their mega best-selling book, Reclaiming Our Students: Why Children Are More Anxious, Aggressive, and Shut Down Than Ever―And What We Can Do About It, authors Hannah Beach and Tamara Neufeld Strijack alerted us to what's going on with today's youth. I'm going to do a separate episode update in two weeks, but for our purpose here, two of the questions we discussed in the episode were Why are our kids in the position today of being more anxious, aggressive, and shut down than ever before? What has been the impact of children losing time for free play – and of entertainment becoming the substitute for free play? 2. Episode 316 - Fishing the Good Fight—Healing on the Stream for Men with Mental Health Issues Jim Flint is the Executive Director of "Fishing the Good Fight," an organization that uses fly-fishing retreats to help men navigate the complex intersection of masculinity and mental health. As a fly fisher, I was thrilled with the reception of this episode and with two other very popular episodes on the spiritual power of fly fishing Episode 315 - Susan Gaetz is the executive director for Casting for Recovery, a national nonprofit using the therapeutic sport of fly fishing to serve women with breast cancer. Episode 330 - Sylvia Huron is the co-founder and Executive Director of Reeling in Serenity, a non-profit that uses fly fishing to support addiction recovery through free retreats. 3. Episode 321 - You Have a Story to Tell—The Art of Memoir Writing This episode explores the art of memoir writing with author and teacher, Cindy House. Our conversation delved into the genre's rising popularity and its essential elements. Cindy emphasized curiosity as the foundation of writing and how memoir differs from autobiography by focusing on one or more specific aspects of one's life rather than a comprehensive account. Our conversation also covers the major elements of memoirs, including the importance of a central dramatic question, its supporting thematic framework, and the structure that holds everything together. Two other episodes deserve mention. Episode 88 - Leading in a Time of Crisis: Part 10 I conducted this interview with the then-Principal of the Baltimore Design School, Zaharah Valentine, in April 2020. The crisis, of course, was COVID-19, and Zarharah offered suggestions on how faculty could weather it. This episode has probably surged recently because educators are once again in crisis. Teachers and administrators are leaving the field due to burnout, low pay, lack of support, political pressures, and challenging student behaviors. Episode 324 - Cultivating Student Curiosity and Engagement in the Thinking Mathematics Classroom. This was one of my favorite episodes of the year. Dr. Peter Liljedahl is a Professor of Mathematics Education and has developed a unique way for students to learn math. Instead of sitting by themselves working out mind-numbing math problems, Dr. Liljedahl's method has students working in triads at whiteboards on real-world problems. Process and thinking, here, are as necessary as the answer.

Guest Leah Ellis is a mom of four, writer, wedding officiant, Girl Scout leader, and founder of The Society of Child Entrepreneurs. Her life blends family, creativity, and leadership, from giggling over business plans at the breakfast table to mentoring kids through hands-on entrepreneurship. With her children as her compass, Leah is reminded daily that growth is messy, love is work, and compassion changes everything. Through SoCE, Nerdy Nuptials ICT, and Girl Scouts, she creates spaces where kids, couples, and communities are empowered to lead with authenticity. Leah believes in making room for both the mess and the magic of becoming. Melody Ellis is a young artist, child entrepreneur, and community leader who blends creativity, curiosity, and confidence in everything she does. As one of the first members of The Society of Child Entrepreneurs, Melody has grown up alongside SoCE, learning how to turn ideas into action through real-world business experiences. From designing artwork and products to helping at events, she leads with imagination and heart. Guided by creativity and compassion, Melody is learning that growth takes courage, mistakes are part of the journey, and kids are capable of amazing things right now. Through SoCE, Girl Scouts, and her own creative ventures, Melody is already making her mark as a leader in the making.     Summary This episode explores how Leah Ellis and her daughter, Melody, turned a four-year-old's curiosity into a thriving business and, ultimately, a youth entrepreneurship movement. When the pandemic forced Leah to close her daycare, she pivoted into financial coaching—training that Melody absorbed from the living-room TV. Soon, Melody announced she wanted to start a business, launching a contact-free drip-art venture at age four. As her work grew, Leah recognized the need for a community of young entrepreneurs. She created the Society of Child Entrepreneurs, a structured program teaching business skills, financial literacy, adaptability, and leadership through hands-on experience. Kids learn pricing, budgeting, opportunity cost, and problem-solving, culminating in selling their products publicly. The conversation highlights extraordinary creativity—like kids designing a robot to stop porch pirates—and the confidence that grows when adults step back and ask questions rather than set limits. Leah also discusses the proposed "SoCE Law" to ease restrictions on kids starting businesses. Throughout, Melody reflects on how entrepreneurship has made her more adaptable, expressive, and willing to share her work. Together, they illustrate what happens when young people are empowered to build real businesses. The Essential Point The core message is that children are far more capable than adults often assume. Creativity, business sense, and problem-solving emerge naturally when they are given space, the ability to ask questions, and trust. Leah rejects the idea that "kids are the future," arguing instead that they are powerful now. By letting kids start real businesses, handle real challenges, and make real decisions, the Society of Child Entrepreneurs helps them develop confidence, adaptability, and an entrepreneurial mindset that carries into every part of their lives. Social Media & Referenced The Society of Child Entrepreneurs

Guest Jonathan Gluck is a writer and editor whose work has appeared in The New York Times and The Washington Post. He was deputy editor of New York magazine for ten years, after which he worked as managing editor of Vogue. He currently works at Fast Company. His work has been recognized with multiple National Magazine Awards. He is the author of An Exercise in Uncertainty, a memoir of how his journey with incurable cancer has reshaped his identity, marriage, and daily life. Summary In this deeply candid conversation, journalist and author Jon Gluck recounts his 22-year journey living with multiple myeloma, an incurable but treatable bone-marrow cancer. He describes the shock of his diagnosis at age 38 and the long, winding road of tests, remissions, relapses, and emerging treatments that have kept him alive. The discussion explores how Gluck navigates profound uncertainty, the illusion of control, and the emotional toll that chronic illness places not only on the patient but also on family and relationships. He and his wife confronted the strain of living in medical limbo, ultimately turning to therapy to rebuild connection during what he calls becoming "cancer zombies." The conversation also highlights the restorative role of fly fishing, which Gluck describes as one of the few activities capable of placing him entirely in the present. This genuine flow state quiets fear and anxiety. He shares broader lessons about empathy, how to speak to someone with a serious diagnosis, and the importance of intentionally pursuing joy, connection, and meaning while living alongside uncertainty. The Essential Point The heart of the discussion is Jon's insight into living meaningfully in the face of uncertainty. His story shows that while we cannot control the inevitabilities of illness or life's unpredictability, we can control how we show up—seeking information, accepting our limits, nurturing relationships, and embracing activities that restore us. His emphasis on intentionally choosing joy, connection, and presence—even in the shadow of chronic illness—offers a universal lesson for anyone facing their own uncertainties. Social MediaFacebook https://www.facebook.com/jon.gluck.3 LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-gluck-b32b6898/ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jbgluck/

Guest Hunter Seim is a thirty-year veteran of the Bureau of Land Management. His current role is a range and wild horse advisor to the District Manager of the Northwest District, Colorado BLM. During his career, he worked as a land survey technician and an outdoor recreation planner specializing in wilderness management in Palm Springs, California, and as a rangeland management specialist and an assistant field manager in Craig, Colorado. His duties have given him exposure to almost every aspect of managing public lands. He received a Bachelor of Science in Range Management from Texas Tech University in 1992. Range management and rangeland ecology are my primary background and where the bulk of my career and professional interests lie. Summary Hunter Seim brings three decades of experience from the Bureau of Land Management to this conversation about managing America's public lands. With a background in range management and ecology, Hunter explains how the BLM oversees 245 million acres across the western states, balancing diverse and often conflicting interests—from wilderness preservation to resource extraction, livestock grazing, and wildlife habitat protection. The discussion reveals the BLM's unique challenge: its mission is so broad that "somebody's always going to be disappointed." Hunter describes managing everything from wilderness boundaries in California to oil and gas reclamation in Colorado, emphasizing that collaboration is essential to success. Rather than dictating policy, the BLM works as a neighbor to thousands of private landowners, state agencies, and various other stakeholders. Particularly fascinating is Hunter's work with outcome-based grazing, which demonstrates how properly managed livestock grazing can coexist with—and even benefit—sensitive habitats, such as sage grouse environments. The wild horse program presents one of the agency's most emotionally charged challenges, as the BLM attempts to balance animal welfare with ecosystem health while facing intense public scrutiny amplified by social media. From fire management to water rights, mineral extraction to animal crossings, the BLM operates at the intersection of conservation and commerce. Hunter emphasizes that these public lands benefit all Americans, whether they ever visit them or not—from the resources they provide to the simple knowledge that vast, undeveloped wilderness still exists. His recommended reading, Wallace Stegner's "Beyond the 100th Meridian," captures the essential challenge of managing the arid West. The Essential Point The most critical insight is that successful public lands management requires constant collaboration and a balancing act between competing interests. The BLM cannot simply dictate policy—it must work as a neighbor with thousands of stakeholders, from ranchers to environmentalists, state agencies to private landowners. This collaborative approach, exemplified by outcome-based grazing initiatives that benefit both livestock operators and wildlife habitat, demonstrates that conservation and commerce need not be mutually exclusive. Social Media & Referenced Bureau of Land Management Beyond the 100th Meridian

Guest Spencer Seim owns and operates ZiaFly guide service in Taos, NM. He's been tying flies since age eight and just finished his 23rd season guiding the southern Rockies. Spencer is well known for his classic Atlantic salmon flies, as well as his own patterns for fishing the Taos area. Spencer lives with his wife, Sophia, daughter Olivia, and son Ivo. From hopping freight trains, bouncing throughout the Rockies looking for fish, to tying flies, making hooks, and dyeing feathers, Spencer is always eager to share his hard-earned knowledge with others. Spencer's work has been featured in America's Favorite Flies, The Drake magazine, Smithsonian magazine, and The Feather Thief. In addition to Getting Unstuck, he has been a guest on numerous podcasts, including Destination Angler, Wet Fly Swing, Getting Unstuck, Ask About Fly Fishing, and This American Life. Summary In this riverside conversation, fly-fishing guide Spencer Seim reflects on how his lifelong passion for fly fishing has shaped his identity, philosophy, and environmental ethics. From his early fascination with anglers in the southern Rockies to his work guiding others on Colorado and New Mexico rivers, Spencer sees fly fishing not just as a sport but as a spiritual and meditative practice—a way to connect deeply with nature and oneself. He describes the river as "a living thing" and "the ultimate connection to nature," teaching humility, adaptability, and respect. Each day on the water is a dialogue between person and place, one that demands observation and openness rather than mastery or control. Spencer explains that true success on the river—and in life—comes from learning through failure, adapting to changing conditions, and maintaining realistic expectations. The "frontier of the mind," as he calls it, is the mental space where curiosity and growth thrive, often nurtured by time spent in solitude outdoors. As a parent, he uses these same lessons to teach his daughter resilience, kindness, courage, and the value of learning from mistakes. He also extends his stewardship ethic to conservation, recounting a story of helping prevent gas drilling in the Valle Vidal wilderness and emphasizing that "Mother Nature is not a resource, she's the source." Ultimately, Spencer frames both fly fishing and life as opportunities for "quiet lessons"—moments of discovery, humility, and connection that flow like the river itself. The Key Takeaway Spencer's central insight is that fly fishing mirrors life: success comes through humility, awareness, and adaptation. The river teaches us to listen to nature, to others, and to our own inner dialogue. Social Media https://www.ziafly.com/spencer-seim

Guest Dr. Karen Sobel-Lojeski is a pioneer in understanding how technology shapes human connection at work and beyond. She created the award-winning framework, Virtual Distance, a proven and practical set of predictive analytics that target problems and predictably strengthen trust, collaboration, and productivity across remote, hybrid, and in-person teams. As the founder of Virtual Distance International, she has advised Fortune 500 companies, government agencies, and institutions, including Coca-Cola, the US Navy, DARPA, and the World Economic Forum. A trusted advisor, former professor and researcher with affiliations at Princeton's Institute for Advanced Study, Wharton, and the Stockholm School of Economics, she is the author of Uniting the Virtual Workforce, Leading the Virtual Workforce, and The Power of Virtual Distance. Her insights have been featured in Harvard Business Review, The New York Times, Forbes, The Wall Street Journal, NPR, and other prominent publications. She is a sought-after speaker, known for energizing audiences worldwide. She holds degrees in Computer Science and Applied Mathematics from SUNY Albany and a Ph.D. from Stevens Institute of Technology, where her dissertation, Virtual Distance: A New Model for the Study of Virtual Work, won the Best Dissertation of the Year Award. Summary In this follow-up conversation, Dr. Karen Sobel-Lojeski—creator of the concept of "virtual distance"—discusses how technology continues to shape, and often erode, human connection, particularly in education. She defines virtual distance as the measurable sense of separation people feel despite being physically close, a phenomenon driven by technology-mediated communication. The model comprises three layers: physical distance, which has the least impact on outcomes; operational distance, representing the day-to-day barriers to smooth communication; and affinity distance, the emotional and relational disconnect that most strongly undermines trust, learning, and collaboration. Dr. K and Jeff revisit ideas they first discussed during the COVID-19 pandemic, when schools shifted to remote learning. While educators solved many operational challenges, they largely ignored the emotional and social costs—students' inability to connect, play, and learn together. Dr. K likens this to Isaac Asimov's story "The Fun They Had," a cautionary tale about robotic education devoid of joy and connection. The discussion shifts to current policies that restrict cell phone use in schools. Dr. K argues these measures, while well-intentioned, misidentify the real problem. Locking up phones doesn't undo decades of cultural conditioning around technology. Students' sense of self and connection has already been rewired; removing the device without addressing underlying social and emotional needs merely produces deprivation, not engagement. She urges educators to prioritize relationships, empathy, and social learning—what she calls "reconnecting to our direct experience of being human." AI, she warns, intensifies virtual distance by outsourcing creativity and meaning-making. Ultimately, she calls for a cultural and educational rebalancing that centers human connection in an increasingly digital world. The Essential Point Technological fixes—whether online learning, AI, or banning cell phones—cannot mend what they helped fray: our capacity for human connection. True learning and creativity depend on empathy, direct experience, and social bonds. Social Media klojeski@virtualdistance.com www.thepowerofvirtualdistance.com www.virtualdistance.com +1.551.580.6422

Guest Jodi Scott is a purpose-driven business leader and entrepreneur passionate about bridging the gap between natural wellness and modern innovation. As the co-founder of Green Goo, she's helped pioneer plant-based alternatives in categories traditionally dominated by synthetics, from first aid to personal care. With a background in science, sales, and sustainability, Jodi brings a fresh perspective to how businesses can grow with integrity, lead with empathy, and stay true to their mission even in fast-changing industries. Summary In this episode, Jeff speaks with Jodi Scott, co-founder of Green Goo, a family-run company that produces plant-based first-aid and wellness products. The conversation traces Green Goo's origins from her sister's early herbalism experiments to a thriving business built around natural healing and sustainability. Jodi shares how her family's blend of skills—her sister's herbology, her mother's tech entrepreneurship, and her own background in health psychology—converged to create a purpose-driven company focused on high-efficacy, natural alternatives to chemical-laden over-the-counter products. She explains the rigorous process behind Green Goo's product formulation, including the FDA's growing recognition of botanical ingredients and the company's commitment to transparent labeling. Beyond product development, Jodi highlights the deeper values that guide the company: spreading goodness, supporting community, and cultivating trust among consumers skeptical of plant-based efficacy. The heart of the conversation comes when Jodi recounts selling the company to a seemingly aligned partner—only to watch it collapse after the buyer's scandal. Forced to lay off her family and staff, she describes the emotional devastation and eventual resilience that followed as they fought to buy the company back. That experience reshaped her understanding of resilience—not as relentless grit, but as the ability to pause, get present, and move forward with clarity. Now, with Green Goo reborn and expanded into a broader wellness portfolio, Jodi continues to advocate for purpose-driven leadership and mindful living, encouraging others to "keep showing up" even when the path is uncertain. The Essential Point Jodi's essential message is that resilience isn't about endless drive—it's about presence, reflection, and finding purpose even amid loss. Her journey with Green Goo shows how values and mindfulness can sustain both people and businesses through profound challenges. Social Media www.greengoo.com | www.southernbutter.com  | www.ovamoon.com | www.fambotanicals.com     

Guest Dennis and Ali Pitocco lead 360° Nation, a global media platform dedicated to uplifting humanity. For over 15 years, the couple has focused on showcasing humanity's best aspects and driving positive change. Their philosophy emphasizes presence, belonging, and compassionate service, allocating resources for the greater good. They believe in the power of media to benefit society, employing a purpose-driven "for good" vs. for-profit business model that highlights the human potential for creativity, compassion, and collaboration.  Summary In this episode, Dennis and Ali reflect on their 500-mile walk along the Camino de Santiago, a six-week pilgrimage through northern Spain that became one of the most profound experiences of their lives. Initially drawn to the Camino less for its religious tradition than for its potential as a reflective journey, the couple sought quiet, connection, and space away from the noise of everyday life. Along the way, they discovered what they call a "symphony of silence"—a meditative calm in which layers of distraction and obligation fell away, revealing a more profound sense of self and purpose. Dennis describes how walking each day with nothing but their thoughts and nature's rhythms stripped away life's "varnish," exposing what truly matters: authenticity, relationships, and wonder. Upon returning home, he and Ali found themselves changed. Dennis reached out to each of his siblings, determined to cultivate genuine, not transactional, relationships—an impulse he attributes directly to the Camino. They also wrote the book we occasionally dip into during this episode to record for themselves and inspire others to approach the Camino as a journey of introspection rather than endurance. The conversation touches on lessons about slowing down, embracing simplicity, and rekindling awe in the everyday. For Dennis, the Camino became a metaphor for life—an act of "unbecoming" all that is false so one can return to one's most authentic self. As he puts it, "Pain is temporary, but the accomplishment of doing it lives with you forever." The Essential Point The Camino taught Dennis that transformation often comes through subtraction—not adding more, but shedding distractions and illusions to rediscover authenticity, connection, and the quiet beauty of being fully present. Social Media LINKTREE

Guest Christopher Schaberg, PhD., is the Director of Public Scholarship at Washington University in St. Louis, as well as a founding editor of Object Lessons, a book series on the secret lives of ordinary things. Chris is the author of ten books, including one really good one on fly-fishing.  Summary In this wide-ranging conversation, Chris reflects on curiosity, confusion, and the value of paying attention to small things. He begins by adapting Norman Maclean's line from A River Runs Through It—"Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it." by suggesting that "confusion" or "mystery" runs through his own life and work—a reminder that lingering in uncertainty can be a fertile state for creativity and learning. Chris also discusses his fascination with airports, where he once worked, and how those complex spaces became both a professional subject and metaphor for human experience. He also explores his "Object Lessons" book series, which celebrates the hidden lives of ordinary things, and his broader intellectual project of focusing on the small, the local, and the limited—an intentional counterbalance to a culture obsessed with scale, speed, and expansion. This theme carries through his writing on fly fishing, Adventure: An Argument for Limits, and Little Data, all of which urge closer attention to what's near, tangible, and often overlooked. As director of public scholarship, Chris works to help academics communicate their research clearly and meaningfully to general audiences, fostering what he sees as a moral imperative for universities: to re-engage with the public in accessible, authentic ways. He and I also reflect on teaching, the challenges of student preparation, and the evolving role of curiosity in an AI-driven age. Chris closes by describing fly fishing not as an escape but as a way to recenter attention and rediscover connection—with nature, with others, and with himself. The Essential Point Chris's essential insight is that confusion and uncertainty are not obstacles but opportunities—spaces where curiosity deepens, learning expands, and meaningful connections between art, scholarship, and everyday life emerge. "The best essays leave you more puzzled about a topic in a constructive way. It's okay to be confused—linger there." Social Media https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-schaberg-812923282/

Guest Lyle Kirtman has been a leadership development consultant for more than 30 years. As CEO, of Future Management Systems Inc., he has worked on developing leaders to increase results for students in 500 school districts in 15 states. Kirtman's focus on innovation in education is a key element of his presentations, keynotes, and publications. His field-based research has already made major contributions to the educational leadership arena through his "7 Competencies for High Performing Leaders," the use of leadership assessments for self-reflection and hiring, and the importance of getting a "C" in compliance to increase focus on results for student achievement. He is the author and co-author of numerous books, including Leadership and Teams: The Missing Piece of the Educational Reform Puzzle and Shaping the Future: Four Leadership Pivots for Lasting Educational Impact, which we discuss in this episode. Lyle earned a bachelor's degree in psychology from the State University of New York (SUNY) and a master's degree in counseling with a concentration in career development from SUNY and Fairfield University, Connecticut. Why This Episode Matters Lyle Kirtman's new book, Shaping the Future for Leadership Pivots for Lasting Educational Impact, aims to help educational leaders cultivate a positive results culture through four essential pivots. Identify a clear North Star that defines student success. Develop a new approach for hiring, developing, and retaining all staff (shifting from instructional leader to talent leader). Implement a system where employees self-assess their progress toward enabling student success. Establish and commit to high expectations for all students and staff. Kirtman argues that educational leaders lack a 21st-century "North Star" for student success, which is often narrowly defined by high-stakes test scores. He redefines "results" as the essential skills and competencies students need to be successful in life, beyond just academics. These include skills like critical thinking, resilience, and adaptability. Social Media www.futuremsi.com Twitter (X): @FutureManageme3

Guest Sam Sochet is a retired high school principal who currently works as an educational mentor, coach, consultant, and community speaker.  He has been a member of the Syosset, NY, Library Board of Trustees since 2020 and currently serves as its Vice President. Sam taught and led schools for over 3 decades, which culminated in his work at Martin Van Buren High School, transforming it from a school on the brink of NY State Receivership and closure, to a thriving destination school for families in Eastern Queens. Sam's ability to utilize data analysis and community and civic involvement nearly doubled the graduation rate. As a result, Sam was named New York City High School Principal of the Year in 2019.  Sam is currently running for the position of Oyster Bay, NY, Town Supervisor. Summary Sam Sochet shares lessons from transforming a struggling school, highlighting the significance of community, empowering teachers, and preparing students for flexible futures—while reflecting on the changing purpose of education and his new role in public service. The takeaway We must reimagine K–12 education, starting at the local community level, so that schooling goes beyond the traditional acquisition of content and test scores, focusing instead on preparing adaptable, collaborative, critical thinkers who can thrive in an uncertain future. Social Media LinkedIn

Guest Rebecca Winthrop is a leading global authority on education, the director of the Center for Universal Education at Brookings, and an adjunct professor at Georgetown University. She is dedicated to ensuring that every child has the opportunity to thrive in life, work, and as an engaged citizen. She leads cutting-edge research and initiatives aimed at transforming education systems around the world to better support children's learning and development. Rebecca is a trusted advisor to both school communities and national and international organizations. Her expertise is sought by many, including parent networks, schools, district education leaders, the White House, the United Nations, and Fortune 500 companies. Rebecca's work is centered on developing and advocating for evidence-based strategies that bring people together—families, educators, policymakers, and companies—to help children maximize their potential. She is the co-author with Jenny Anderson of The Disengaged Teen: Helping Kids Learn Better, Feel Better, and Live Better. She holds a PhD from Columbia University's Teachers College, an MA from its School of International and Public Affairs, and a BA from Swarthmore College. Summary Jeff and Rebecca explore how schools' outdated designs hinder student agency and engagement. They unpack the four "disengagement modes," highlight practices that foster curiosity and autonomy, and stress the role of families, teachers, and systemic reform in helping students become lifelong, self-directed learners. Key Takeaways Outdated Structures vs. Agency: Schools were built for compliance, not curiosity—modern learning must cultivate student agency and exploration. Four Modes of Engagement: Students move among Passenger, Achiever, Resistor, and Explorer engagement modes. Pathways Forward: Family collaboration, autonomy-supportive teaching, and project-based learning help students thrive and connect knowledge to real life. Social Media Instagram: @drrebeccawinthrop TikTok: @drrebeccawinthrop LinkedIn: Rebecca Winthrop

Guest None today; just me reflecting. Summary In this episode, I reflect on lessons I've drawn from Robert Redford's film adaptation of A River Runs Through It and how they support my growth as a writer. At first, I loved the film for its beauty, but as a writer, I later returned to it as an instructional tool: how to go beyond the surface story of familial love to convey Maclean's more profound meaning. The scene where Norman Maclean's father insists he cut his drafts in half taught me that "thrift" is about essence, not just length. Like Norman, I struggle in my early drafts to move past surface storytelling and uncover what I am truly trying to say. With encouragement from my writing coach, Cindy House, and insights from writing instructor Jeannine Ouillette, I've learned to revise until I reach "aboutness"—the story's heart that sits between the story's plot and its themes. For me, digging deeper means discovering not just what happens, but what emotions I'm feeling that I want my readers to feel. The Bob Ross painting I refer to in the essay. Related Media In Episode 240 of the podcast, "Teaching—The River That Runs Through A Life," I speak with John Dietsch, who choreographed all the fly fishing scenes in the film. Watch the scene where young Norman learns to write. Watch the emotional last scene in the film. Read this beautifully constructed review of Norman's teaching and writing. For a related and highly informative podcast, listen to April Vokey's interview with Rebecca McCarthy, who wrote an intimate portrait of Norman.

Guest Sarah Elkins is a keynote speaker, Gallup StrengthsFinder coach, and the author and podcast host of Your Stories Don't Define You, How You Tell Them Will. She is the principal at Elkins' Consulting. She is the organizing genius behind the annual No Longer Virtual Summit, a small business summit for those looking for a community of professionals to grow with - personally, professionally, and thoughtfully. In her work with coaching clients, Sarah guides individuals to enhance their communication by using storytelling as the foundation of their collaboration. What she's realized over years of coaching and podcasting is that the majority of people don't realize the impact of the stories they share - on their internal messages, and on the people they're sharing them with. Her work with leaders and people who aspire to be leaders follows a similar path to the interviews on her podcast, uncovering pivotal moments in their lives and learning how to share them to connect more authentically with others, to make their presentations and speaking more engaging, to reveal patterns that have kept them stuck or moved them forward, and to improve their relationships at work and at home. Summary In this episode, Sarah and I discuss our key takeaways from her recent "No Longer Virtual Summit." We reflect on sessions that focused on finding a target audience and identifying one's "content personality type." We also explore how they've applied these concepts to their work. I share how I've narrowed the focus of my podcast to center on curiosity and innovation, while Sarah talks about incorporating storytelling and the StrengthsFinder assessment into her public speaking coaching. We both emphasize the importance of vulnerability, personal stories, and targeting a specific audience to build authentic connections and achieve career clarity. Key Takeaways Narrow your focus to find your target audience. Instead of trying to appeal to a broad market, solopreneurs should "shoot with a rifle, not with a shotgun" by focusing on a specific audience based on their values and the problems they solve for clients. Embrace your "content personality type" for business development. Identifying how you work best, such as in-person or through reflection, can guide how you build your business and get people to care about your services. Use storytelling to build authentic connections. Sharing personal stories that demonstrate your skills and values can create a deeper, more memorable connection with others. This is particularly effective for leaders and professionals in networking situations. Social Media: Your Stories Don't Define You, How You Tell Them Will Book: To support your local bookstore, visit Bookshop.org. Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/your-stories-dont-define-you-how-you-tell-them-will/id1329558957

Guest Dr. Constantino "Costa" Aguilar is a distinguished educational leader with over 29 years of transformative service in public education. Throughout his dynamic career, Dr. Aguilar has demonstrated extraordinary commitment to student success and organizational excellence, serving in a wide range of leadership roles, including Spanish Teacher, Head Baseball Coach, Associate Principal, Principal, Executive Director of Technology and Innovation, and Assistant Superintendent of Educational Services in the Merced Union High School District. He currently serves as the Superintendent of Riverbank Unified School District, where he continues to lead with strategic vision, innovation, and a relentless focus on equity and achievement for all students. Dr. Aguilar's exceptional leadership has been recognized at the state level. He is a proud recipient of the prestigious "Honoring Our Own" award from the California Association of Latino Superintendents and Administrators (CALSA) and has been named Mentoring Minds California Administrator of the Year. His accolades also include ACSA Region 9 Principal of the Year, Career Technical Education (CTE) Administrator of the Year, and District Principal and Co-Administrator of the Year—testaments to his ability to inspire teams, elevate learning environments, and drive sustainable change. Summary Dr. Constantino "Costa" Aguilar is a superintendent in his third year at Riverbank Unified School District. Costa shares his journey from being a Spanish teacher to becoming a superintendent and discusses his vision for educational reform. He highlights the importance of social-emotional learning and dual enrollment programs—high school and college—and emphasizes the need to teach students how to be productive members of society. Costa outlines the challenges facing education today, including social disengagement, mental health issues, and the integration of artificial intelligence. He also stresses the need for community engagement, parent involvement, and a shift away from antiquated, adult-centric school systems. Key Takeaways Educational Purpose and Reform: According to Costa, the current national K12 school system is "incredibly antiquated" and no longer serves students' needs. He believes the purpose of schooling should be to provide every student with the opportunity to pursue their dreams, regardless of what they are. Costa advocates for changes like different scheduling and focusing on mastery learning over traditional grading. The Role of Community and Social-Emotional Learning: Costa emphasizes the importance of unifying the community and building trust between parents and the school system. He believes social-emotional learning (SEL) is a foundational and essential component of education, helping students develop emotional intelligence and learn how to be productive social members of society. Challenges of Modern Education: The biggest challenges Costa faces include how to use artificial intelligence, improving literacy skills, and student mental health. Social Media Riverbank Unified School District

In this episode, I reflect on some of the "No" responses I receive from potential guests. I have hosted this show for seven years and 376 episodes, yet some of my most popular episodes are about guests who declined to be on the show. I discuss three types of "Nos": a direct "No," an initial "Yes" followed by silence, and no response at all. I note that the rejections that linger with me are from guests I desperately wanted to host. I explain that I sometimes share these stories with my listeners to create something out of nothing and to explain what sparked my curiosity in the first place. I conclude that while a "No" still stings, I have learned not to take it personally; it is a fact of podcast life.

Guest Nanci Morris Lyon is a long-time resident of Bristol Bay, Alaska, living in King Salmon, where she owns Bear Trail Lodge on the famed Naknek River.  She is a long-time leader in Bristol Bay conservation and has been an essential voice in the fight against the Pebble Mine. As the first female guide in Bristol Bay and one of the first in Alaska, she is an inspiration for many young women pursuing careers in the sport-fishing world.  She was instrumental in the creation of the Bristol Bay Guide Academy, and 14 years later, she continues to be the lead instructor at the Academy, currently guiding some of her past students into roles as academy instructors. She is also a role model for guides throughout the country, demonstrating and emphasizing the importance of getting involved in fisheries management and conservation as a sport-fishing professional.  She has donated her time to several important Bristol Bay fisheries documents, including the Southwest Alaska Rainbow Trout management plan and the Nushagak King Salmon Management plan. Among the Bristol Bay guide circle, she is known as the "Queen of the Naknek." Summary Nanci discusses her unique path to becoming a fishing guide and lodge operator. She shares her personal history, including graduating from high school at 16, working in veterinary medicine, and then building homes in Anchorage before a personal loss led her to a new career in guiding. Nanci highlights the importance of cultivating a strong customer service culture at the lodge, where employees are treated like family and encouraged to go beyond their basic duties. She also talks about her involvement in environmental issues, particularly her opposition to the proposed Pebble Mine, and her role in establishing a fly fishing guide academy for local youth. Key Takeaways Exceptional Customer Service is a Taught Culture: Nanci emphasizes that outstanding customer service is not accidental but a deliberate part of the company culture. She leads by example, showing employees that no task is too small, and she hires people who are genuinely interested in connecting with guests rather than just performing a job. She looks for individuals who want to "meet people where they're at" and make a positive impact on their day. Environmental Advocacy is Crucial in Remote Areas: The interview highlights the fragility of Alaska's natural resources and the importance of protecting them. Nanci's involvement in fighting against projects like the Pebble Mine, which threatened the entire Bristol Bay ecosystem, demonstrates how individuals and businesses in remote locations can become key advocates for environmental preservation and the subsistence lifestyles that depend on them. Challenges Foster Resilience: Nanci's life story, from losing her brother to adapting to the demands of a remote Alaskan lifestyle, illustrates how adversity can build resilience. She believes that stepping out of one's comfort zone, especially in an environment where self-reliance is essential, makes people better. This mentality is a core part of her character, as she views challenges as opportunities rather than insults Social Media Bear Trail Lodge

Today on Getting Unstuck—Cultivating Curiosity One of the many problems that plague U.S. businesses, not-for-profits, and our U.S. education system is when and how to change. For many institutions, the process can look like fruit-of-the-month club: they try "this" until a new "this" comes along. A new something – process, way of thinking, way of leading etc. – is seen as the answer to all organizational ills . . . until a new, shinier something takes its place. As a result, employees are whipped-sawed by an unending stream of changes, and sustained results are rarely achieved. One who wrote at length about this problem was Jim Collins in his landmark book, Good to Great. There he looked at what great performing organizations do that good performing organizations typically don't do. One of the habits that great organizations instinctively employ is something Collins called "the flywheel" – a process involving 4-6 elements with each element impacting / driving the next. The thinking went: "If we do "A," then "B" will happen, which will cause "C" to happen, which will cause "D" and so on. Each element is a consequence of the element that came before it. As Collins wrote: "Pushing with great effort, you get the flywheel to inch forward. You keep pushing, and with persistent effort, you get the flywheel to complete on entire turn. You don't stop. You keep pushing. The flywheel moves a bit fast. Then as some point —breakthrough! The flywheel flies forward with almost unstoppable momentum." Guest The book was written about U.S. business, but the question was quickly asked, "Would this thinking work for not-for-profits and specifically, education?" One educator who was immediately intrigued is Dr. Deb Gustafson. Now retired, at the time of this interview, Deb was the Executive Director of Student Services for the Geary County Unified School District 475 based in Junction City, KS. She is the former principal of Ware Elementary School, and that's where she started turning a flywheel that still turns today. Listen for • What the situation like at Ware Elementary when Deb became principal. • What it was about Collins' book that most impacted Deb. • Why the first practice Deb installed as part of her flywheel – see the illustration – was "select teachers infused with passion." • What Deb saw as the ultimate goal – the why, the purpose, the cause – behind what they we're trying to accomplish at Ware. • The distinction we draw in the interview around "urgency." There was "urgency" in needing to do something to resolve the pain that students and teachers are experiencing, but it wasn't an urgency of pace or timing; it was an urgency around the imperative to take the right action where none had been taken before. • How Deb saw it as critical to "align, apply and enhance" any new initiatives and practices to the existing ones. • The impact the flywheel experience had as Deb trained new administrators. For reflection At one point in the interview, Deb noted "You just have to get to the root causes of what you need in your environment to sustain performance." How often does your current organization actually identify root causes or the real problem to be solved? For more information Turning the Flywheel by Jim Collins