Gospel Tangents Podcast

I had a fun time attending the first Bickertonite baptism in Utah. On a frigid 30 degree day, I witnessed a baptism in the Jordan River. I'll share my thoughts on their church services. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/0NRBxMvB1Qg If you would like to know more about this Restoration Church, check out these other episodes: https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/bickertonites/ Copyright © 2023 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission 1st Bickertonite Baptism in Utah GT  00:00  I've got a special for you today. About a week ago I attended a Bickertonite baptism. The official name of their church is The Church of Jesus Christ. They're based in Monongahela, Pennsylvania. And I found out they had their first Utah baptism. So it was fun. Steve Pynakker was out here in Utah, and we got to attend. And, you know, especially since I had David Boice on recently. I'm not going to take over his 52 Churches in 52 Weeks, but I thought it would be fun, just to do one church in this weekend and just tell you my experiences at attending a Church of Jesus Christ baptism here in Utah. The first thing that you'll notice was, it was very cold.  I can't remember if it was 30 or 32 degrees. Apparently, the Bickertonites believe that, just like Jesus, you should be baptized in an open body of water, {chuckling} even if it's December.  They joked about cutting holes in the ice to baptize somebody in the winter. Personally, if it was me, I would probably wait untill summer. {laughing} That's very cold. But the baptism occurred in the Jordan River. And so, I thought I would show you a clip here of the first baptism in Utah, for the Bickertonite Church. The Church of Jesus Christ, here in the Jordan River. And here we go.   [Video of Reid being baptized in Jordan River.]   01:38  Jacob Reid Betts, having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and in the name of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, amen.  (Congregation singing.) GT  02:17  So, the guy who got baptized, his name is Reid Betts and I've got a picture of him here. I just can't believe [he got in cold water.] I'm not that brave. I'm not a polar bear at all. But yeah, it was really cool in the Jordan River. Obviously, that would have a little bit of significance because Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River. But of course, this is Jordan river in Utah--Jordan river of Israel are not exactly the same. But it was very, very cold. So we did that. I think Reid lives in the Murray area or something because after the baptism, we got in our cars and we rode to the one of the libraries there in Salt Lake City, in Murray and did the confirmation service. One of the things that I find interesting about the Church of Jesus Christ, the Bickertonite Church, is they have amazing music and I guess this is the second time I've attended. I didn't really talk about the first time, but I'll kind of share some thoughts there. The first time I attended was in Florida with Steve Pynakker, also.  And I swear they have the best piano players, because their music-- I think I might even have a little clip here, I hope. (jazzy gospel music playing with the congregation singing) GT  04:30  Anyway, that kind of gives you a little bit of taste of the music, and it's just really fun and really, really cool. And so we sang songs for a long time while Reid was getting warm and drying off. {chuckling} Then he showed up. If you've ever been to an LDS baptism or confirmation service, in a lot of ways it is very, very similar. They give the laying on of hands and we give to the Holy Ghost and that sort of thing. One of the interesting things about the Bickertonite service is the fact that in every service that I've attended, and so at this baptism, for example, after, I believe it was after the confirmation, they made an announcement.

Lynne Whitesides is a convert to the LDS Church and has a different perspective on things than a lifelong member. We'll talk about her perspective on the Sept Six. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/oef3Zc0OLj4   Copyright © 2023 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission     Growing up Outside the Church Interview GT  00:25  So let's, go back and talk about you growing up. So, you grew up Italian Catholic or? Lynne  00:30  No, actually, my grandmother's from Italy. My grandfather was from Germany. And my mom grew up with basically immigrants. My grandmother, I think, was either pregnant, or she was born here. But she spoke only Italian until she was in eighth grade. So I grew up with those people. They were my grandparents, I hung out with them. So. My grandmother made really just one, what's the word, concession to my grandfather. She became a Lutheran and let go of Catholicism. So, I was raised Lutheran, actually. And it's a long story, but my parents moved a lot when I was kid. I moved in 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th grade. And at some point, I didn't want to do that anymore. And I started investigating the Mormon Church. And I thought that there was something about it that felt stable, to me, I think, at 17. And they were totally against me becoming Mormon, completely, because they just thought it was the weirdest church. And so, I started investigating, and I've got to also say the missionaries were very cute, and I was 17. {Rick laughing} So I was in Florida, and then they moved back up to Pennsylvania. I went from Pennsylvania to Florida a bunch of times. So, they moved back to Pennsylvania, and that's where I became a Mormon. I was baptized in New Jersey. And then my parents went to my baptism, and two months later, they became Mormon. GT  01:54  Oh, wow. Lynne  01:55  And then all of my Italian family became Mormon. GT  01:58  No way! Lynne  01:58  Yeah, I don't know. There's like [about] 30 of them that [joined:] my aunts, my uncles, my cousins, my brother. GT  02:03  Is that because of you? Lynne  02:05  I wasn't. It was my parents [who] were going around doing it all. I was at BYU by this point. GT  02:10  Okay. Lynne  02:10  So everybody just became Mormon. GT  02:14  Wow. Lynne  02:15  Like, maybe 20, something like that, became Mormon. That changed everything, too. Because by this time I was at BYU. At BYU, I was becoming a little clearer, because the Church in Pennsylvania is very different. GT  02:30  Very different. Lynne  02:31  Yeah. And then I went to BYU. GT  02:31  Okay. {chuckling} Lynne  02:31  Than the Church in Provo, Utah. And I remember thinking, "Oh, man, this is--now all these people are joining. What am I going to do?" Like, this is not the way they said, they didn't-- when I joined, they didn't talk about racism. They didn't talk about misogyny. They didn't talk about--they didn't talk about much, really. They just like, "Come in. It's this lovely family thing." So, when you're 17, you're not investigating too much because the missionaries are cute. So that's how I got into the Church. So, I went to BYU. GT  02:42  So you went to BYU. You were kind of a fish out of water at BYU? Lynne  03:06  Totally a fish out of water. GT  03:08  Okay. Lynne  03:08  My second year at BYU, I got called in and they said, "We think another university might be better for you." I think it may have been because I was hitchhiking to church, and I was wearing--it just wasn't a match. It just wasn't a match. And I realized it wasn't. So that's what happened. GT  03:25  You were hitchhiking. Don't you just go to your classes to go to church? Lynne  03:29  No, actually, because the wards were all over the place back in '70's. I mean, they were all over Provo. But, anyway, the whole thing is they said [that] we think another university would...

It appears that the LDS Church brands the scarlet letter A for apostasy on the chest of those guilty of apostasy in order to make their teachings appear dangerous to orthodox members of the Church. Despite all that, Janice continues to attend church in Provo, Utah. But this scarlet letter has affected her children, and not in a good way. Check out our conversation.... https://youtu.be/oq5UJdNf-rk   Copyright © 2023 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission Would Janice Come Back? Interview GT  00:37  Very good. I'm trying to think of who else in there. So Avraham, Maxine, both came back. Lavina applied and didn't [get accepted.] Have you ever applied to get back? Janice  00:50  No, no, I won't. GT  00:51  You won't? Why not? Janice  00:55  Several reasons. One, I'll go through them. I can only think of three today. Sometimes I can think of—the most important one. First, in order to get back, again, I take the laws and regulations of the Church seriously. In order to get back, it's required to go back to the court that excommunicated you, and to look at what happened, and the applicant is required to repent of what they did. Now, repentance must be sincere. I don't believe I did anything wrong. Therefore, I cannot say I repent of what I did. So, I can't, in good conscience, apply for rebaptism, because that is the process. The second one is, through everything that happened in the process of my church discipline, it became very clear to me that the Church requires obedience to Church authorities. And they also require me to claim, to say, that I recognize the leaders of the Church as prophets, seers, and revelators. I do not recognize the leaders of the Church as prophets, seers and revelators. GT  02:11  Oh, wow. Janice  02:11  And I am not willing to submit to their authority. Therefore, although, I don't think the Church should require that, however, that's what they require. So, for that reason, I won't do it. The third reason is, it would be futile, since they rejected my dear friend, Lavina. Why would they accept me who has written many, many more things since then, which go farther, farther, farther from what I did at that time. So, it would be wrong and futile, and so I don't. GT  02:50  So if your bishop came to you and said, "Janice, we want you back in Church." You'd say? Janice  02:58  I'd say for these—it's interesting, because my bishop has never said that. One of the Relief Society presidents, who was a friend of mine, said to me, "You should reapply." I told her my reasons. She said she had talked to the bishop, and he said that he would be willing to go through the process. And I said, "No, it would not..." Again, it would not be fair to put people through this process, which I know is going to fail, and which I also know that I cannot maintain a willingness to have my speaking, writing, publishing, overseen by them. GT  03:44  Well, because Maxine speaks at Sunstone now. Janice  03:47  She does. GT  03:48  So do you think that's still a condition? Janice  03:51  Well, I don't think it was ever a condition. I don't know Maxine's history. Speaking at Sunstone, many Church members still do that. GT  04:01  What I'm saying is, and I have to talk to her, so we'll get more of her story. But I would assume she probably had a similar prohibition: Don't speak. Janice  04:14  No, as far as I know, and listening to Maxine, she was not active. She was not going to church at the time. She did not go to her court. GT  04:26  Oh, when she was excommunicated? Janice  04:28  Right. So I don't know what she was told. I mean, I don't know. And I doubt, again, I don't know for sure. I doubt if she made any contact with Church authorities for some time, for many years until she decided to... GT  04:44  I know she became a priest in another gnostic religion or something.

Bill Russell is one of my favorite Community of Christ historians. He taught at Graceland University, and told Bruce Jenner to train hard for the 1600 meters in the Olympic Decathlon. We'll learn about RLDS history, and his unorthodox beliefs. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/NGjRr_5-c8g Copyright © 2022 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. Coaching Bruce Jenner at Graceland? Introduction I'm excited to have one of my favorite RLDS historians, Bill Russell from the Community of Christ. We're going to talk about some of his days at Graceland University and find out that he actually coached Bruce Jenner, the Olympic decathlete, now known as Caitlyn Jenner. So, that'll be a lot of fun. Check out our conversation…. Interview GT  01:07  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm so excited to have, can I call you one of the premier historians in the Community of Christ?   Bill  01:16  You might be lying, but, no. I think that would be okay.   GT  01:22  All right. Well, tell us who you are.   Bill  01:23  I'm Bill Russell and I have sort of specialized in Latter-day Saint history since about 1970.   GT  01:35  Okay, so tell us a little bit about your academic background. I understand you're a JD. You're a lawyer, I guess. But I know you taught at Graceland.   Bill  01:44  Yeah.   GT  01:45  Tell us about all your degrees, bachelor's, stuff like that.   Bill  01:48  I took a religion major at Graceland, undergraduate. Then I got my Master of Divinity. That's a three-year degree from the Methodist Seminary in Kansas City. I loved it. I mean, it's just some of the best professors I've ever had. Lindsey Farrago in New Testament, I've often thought of him as the best professor I've ever had.   GT  02:14  What was the name of that seminary?   Bill  02:16  St. Paul School of Theology, a Methodist Seminary in Kansas City, Missouri. I just loved it there. So, I graduated there. Then Graceland said, 'Well, we really need somebody to teach Bible and history of Christianity. And that's kind of your strength from seminary. Come on, up to Graceland and teach." So, I said, "Sure." I had always been kind of a goal of mine to eventually teach at Graceland, although early on I thought, I would love to teach something and coach at Graceland. But that now had long, left my objectives by this time. I did coach cross country three times during my career, three times each, for a total of nine years. But that's just because I had a record running cross country and had been pretty successful at it. So, they roped me and the first time that I coached cross country, this is off above the subject.   GT  03:23  We're all into tangents on Gospel Tangents. So that's okay.   Bill  03:25  So, the first time I coached cross country was I came to Graceland as a freshman. The coach and athletic director said, "Russell, I understand you were successful running cross country at Flint Northern High School in Michigan. I would like you to start the cross-country program at Graceland. So, I did, as a freshman. I went around the men's dormitories and got about five or--we got about six or seven guys.   GT  03:51  Because you need at least five.   Bill  03:53  At least five. Some meets I only had five, but I think I had a maximum of like a six or seven. I did that for three years and then my senior year, LD Weldon, the guy who later would coach Bruce Jenner, came my senior year. So I was able to back away from him. But the funny thing about it was LD Weldon was the third coach that I had--I had three coaches, but I only considered him the third best. My high school coach was better than any of them. He had been one of the top three hurdlers in the country. I learned, even though I was a distance runner, I learned how to hurdle from Norbert Badar, my coach. Yeah,

We’re continuing our conversation with David Rosenvall.  He’s the guy who came up with who came up with the idea that the Book of Mormon lands may have occurred in the Baja Peninsula.  We’ll also discuss some other issues with the Book of Mormon.  Are there two Hill Cumorahs? We don’t know where he goes but we do know how long it took him that he wandered.  He again buries the plates in 420 A.D. We believe in the hill north of Manchester where Joseph Smith would eventually meet with him.  That’s a period of about 36 years. How would one get plates that one can carry, these few plates to that sort of distance?  Well if you want to break it down per year it’s about the distance from Provo to Ogden every year that Moroni would have had to travel with these plates.  We don’t know.  We have one point that’s kind of interesting.  Manti, Utah is a place that Brigham Young states that Moroni dedicated the temple site.  If you go down there, there’s a statue of Moroni there, dedicating. You can see if one started in Baja and had to get to New York in 36 years, one could easily take that path.  Our theory isn’t so much about two Cumorahs, it’s about two hills:  one in the text called the Hill Cumorah, and one where Joseph Smith got the plates called the hill north of Manchester.  Now I kind of like that we as the saints call that hill in New York, Cumorah. Had you heard about this statue of Moroni in Manti?  What about steel swords? One of the things most interesting that we have learned since we started this:  if you go down to the museums in Baja California, specifically the museum in La Paz, they’ll have a display of swords.  Half of them are Spanish swords that they know are very beautiful.  They have a certain design and they’re on display.  It just so happens they have this other collection which is a completely different design, much older, very rusted that are swords, and knives, and all sorts of metal implements that they say they have gotten from some burial sites when they dig up.  They’ve found them in of the ground. So we have metal swords, just as described from the Baja Peninsula.  What we are missing is a full archaeological excavation of more of that.  So we’re finding it very exciting that (1) we’ve got areas where metal is still there today that you can take from outcroppings, (2) you’ve got smelting sites that are ancient.  They all claim they are pre-Spanish.  They’re smelting sites.  Number (3), they do have evidence on the peninsula, so at this point, the Book of Mormon is holding together.  Now the rest of North America, yeah you’ve got a problem with it, but not the Baja Peninsula. They’ve got metal implements. Were you aware that metal swords have been found in Baja, or is David overstating his case?  What do you think of this theory?  (Check out part 1 and part 2.) Don't forget there is less than a week left to sign up for a free book! https://youtu.be/let3ElsNmA8

How does a married man add another wife to his family? Is his wife involved in dating? What is courtship for polygamists like? Josh Thompson shares his experiences and cultural expectations.. Check out our conversation… https://youtu.be/Q4wpdBUjheg Don’t miss our other conversations on Mormon Fundamentalism! https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/aub Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

Is White & Delightsome racist scripture in the Book of Mormon. Brant Gardner will tackle that in out next conversation. He’s the author of 2 books, “Plates of Mormon” & “Engraven Upon Plates, Written Upon Paper.” He’ll also discuss KJV English (or is it Tyndale English?) & horses in the Book of Mormon. Check out our conversation… https://youtu.be/4v-mi7HYS7w Don’t miss our other conversations with Brant Gardner! https://gospeltangents.com/people/brant-gardner Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

I'm happy to have Dr Paul Reeve back on the show! We'll talk about the earliest black Mormons who did and did not hold the priesthood. Paul has a new book published by Deseret Book titled "Let's Talk About Race and Priesthood." He will introduce the book and discuss his amazing website called "Century of Black Mormons."  It will include not only famous ones like Elijah Abel, but others you haven't heard of like his son Moroni Abel. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/jWGxwREuH3g Copyright © 2023 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission Earliest Black Mormons GT  00:36  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I'm excited to have one of my favorite historians. It's been a long time since he's been on the show. Some of you new listeners may not have even known that Paul was my second interview ever. Paul, could you go ahead and tell us who you are and where we are? Paul  00:52  I'm Paul Reeve and I'm a Simmons Chair of Mormon studies in the history department at the University of Utah. GT  01:00  Perfect. I remember the last time I talked to you, you had just received a promotion. And this is not the same office that we were in last time. Paul  01:12  That's right. GT  01:13  I think you've received a couple of promotions since then. Last time you were a full professor. What's happened in the last seven years? Paul  01:20  So I am now chair of the History Department at the University of Utah. It's a three-year appointment. I'm in the first of three years as chair at the department. GT  01:32  And that's your favorite job? Paul  01:35  Well, I'd probably rather be in the classroom. GT  01:40  You know, it's funny because Margaret Toscano, she's been on a couple of times, and she was department chair. And she was like, "I can't wait until I'm done with this." Paul  01:48  Yes. GT  01:49  What's the big deal about department chair? Why is it such a terrible job? Paul  01:54  {Chuckles}  Well, hopefully no one from my department listens to this. It's a lot of bureaucratic work that just isn't my favorite thing. GT  02:05  Okay. I can see that. So, you're just much more of a researcher. Paul  02:10  Yeah, I'd rather be in the classroom and researching and writing. GT  02:15  Well, very good. Okay. Well, you've got a new book. Now, why don't you go ahead and show it to the audience? It's a big book, you can see. Paul  02:24  (Chuckling) It's very small. GT  02:25  What's it called? Paul  02:26  Let's Talk About Race and Priesthood. It's a part of Deseret Book's, "Let's talk About" series. Darius Gray wrote the foreword and I'm really honored to have his story at the beginning of the book. He's a remarkable Latter-day Saint and I'm really honored that he was willing to participate and write the foreword. GT  02:57  Yeah, Darius is a great guy. I actually talked to him when I saw you last week at Writ & Vision. So, he's going to be on the show. But for those people who don't know who he is, could you just give a short blurb about Darius? Paul  03:11  Yeah, Darius joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints before the 1978 revelation and has been just an important black Latter-day Saint ever since. He was a part of the original Genesis group leadership and became president of Genesis, which is a support group for black Latter-day Saints officially organized by the Church. He was a counselor from 1971 to 1997. So, think about the tenure that he spent there. And then he became president of Genesis from 1997 to 2003. GT  03:55  You know, they used to have 20-year callings. We didn't think those still were around, but apparently, they are. Paul  04:00  In Darius' case, they were, yes. And he really became the face of Genesis and really made it what it is today. I think he's lived through being a black Latter-day Saint and all of the changes that the 1978 Revelation brought abo...

Tom Bennett invited me to visit Centennial Park, Arizona, a group that practices polygamy. It’s just south of the Utah border and about 50 minutes southeast of St George, Utah. Come along as we visit the community and I share my impressions of my church visit. Check out our conversation… https://youtu.be/o8z5wSg8olQ Don’t miss our other episodes on Mormon fundamentalism! https://gospeltangents.com/denominations/fundamentalism/ Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. transcript to follow Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

Where are the lost diaries of 2 of Modern Mormonism’s most famous authors: Juanita Brooks & Michael Quinn? Joe Geisner tells us. Joe also gives a sneak peek to Writing Mormon History Volume 2. Check out our conversation… https://youtu.be/WoF9w0gZUpo Don’t miss our other conversations with Joe! https://gospeltangents.com/people/joe-geisner/ Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

Have you every wanted to go on a road trip with Rick B? Now’s your chance! This is the first in a series of Tangent Trips we’ll go on: Gilgal Gardens. The idea is to visit various Mormon history sites, both obscure & famous, and take you along for the ride! In this first Tangent Trip, we’ll visit Gilgal Garden, home of the Joseph Smith Sphinx! Why a sphinx? Why not! I’ll let my friend Clair Barrus tell you more! Don’t miss our other trips: https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/gt-trips/ transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved

We're going to dive into Matthew 7 to discuss more LDS Temple theology. Dave talks about approaching the veil in Matthew 7. Does it match with the Book of Mormon? Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/1oqDbbW4qXo Don’t miss our other conversations with David: https://gospeltangents.com/people/david-john-butler/ transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved

Adam Stokes is not only an apostle for Church of Jesus Christ - The Assured Way of the Lord, but he has a divinity degree from Yale University. Does his scholarship training conflict with biblical literalism? How does he balance the competing ideas? We're going to talk about Biblical Scholarship vs Literalism. Check out our conversation... https://youtu.be/iYwcr7hSwog Copyright © 2023 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. transcript to follow Copyright © 2023 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.

Why does one person leave religion, while another person leaves? Dr Ryan Cragun discusses his own faith crisis and Rick shares why he stays. Check out our conversation… https://youtu.be/2qQ1dzvyalA Don’t miss our other conversations with Ryan: https://gospeltangents.com/people/ryan-cragun/ transcript to follow Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission 0:00 Ryan’s Mission 11:21 Ryan’s Deconversion/Betrayal 17:41 Why People Stay or Leave 25:01 Hard Exits transcript to follow Copyright © 2025 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission

Emma wanted William Marks to be the next prophet. What happened when Brigham Young & Sidney Rigdon had other plans? William Marks was so trusted by the Smith family that he helped prepare Joseph’s body for burial.  Cheryl Bruno & John Dinger, the biographers of William Marks answer. Check out our conversation… https://youtu.be/qC6f-U12Qys 0:00 Reactions to Polygamy 19:16 Martyrdom of Joseph 21:01 Defending Sidney Rigdon transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission. transcript to follow Copyright © 2024 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.