Humans of Martech

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with David Joosten, Co-Founder and President at GrowthLoop and the co-author of ‘First-Party Data Activation’.(00:00) - Intro (01:02) - In This Episode (03:47) - Earning The Right To Transform Martech (08:17) - Why Internal Roadshows Make Martech Wins Stick (10:52) - Architecture Shapes How Teams Move and What They Believe (16:25) - Bring Order to Customer Data With the Medallion Framework (21:33) - The Real Enemy of Martech is Fragmented Data (28:39) - Stop Calling Your CRM the Source of Truth (34:47) - Building the Tech Stack People Rally Behind (38:18) - Why Most CDP Failures Start With Organizational Misalignment (44:18) - Why Tough Conversations Strengthen Lifecycle Marketing (55:15) - Why Experimentation Culture Strengthens Martech Leadership (01:00:00) - How to Use a North Star to Stay Focused in Leadership Summary: David learned that martech transformation begins with proof people can feel. Early in his career, he built immaculate systems that looked impressive but delivered nothing real. Everything changed when a VP asked him to show progress instead of idealistic roadmaps. From that moment, David focused on momentum and quick wins. Those early victories turned into stories that spread across the company and built trust naturally. Architecture became his silent advantage, shaping how teams worked together and how confidently they moved. About DavidDavid is the co-founder of GrowthLoop, a composable customer data platform that helps marketers connect insights to action across every channel. He previously worked at Google, where he led global marketing programs and helped launch the Nexus 5 smartphone. Over the years, he has guided teams at Indeed, Priceline, and Google in building first-party data strategies that drive clarity, collaboration, and measurable growth.He is the co-author of First-Party Data Activation: Modernize Your Marketing Data Platform, a practical guide for marketers who want to understand their customers through direct, consent-based interactions. David helps teams move faster by removing data friction and building marketing systems that adapt through experimentation. His work brings energy and empathy to the challenge of modernizing data-driven marketing.Earning The Right To Transform MartechEvery marketing data project starts with ambition. Teams dream of unified dashboards, connected pipelines, and a flawless single source of truth. Then the build begins, and progress slows to a crawl. David remembers one project vividly. His team at GrowthLoop had connected more than 200 data fields for a global tech company, yet every new campaign still needed more. The setup looked impressive, but nothing meaningful was shipping.“We spent quarters building the perfect setup,” David said. “Then the VP of marketing called me and said, ‘Where are my quick wins?’”That question changed his thinking. The VP wasn’t asking for reports or architecture diagrams. He wanted visible proof that the investment was worth it. He needed early wins he could show to leadership to keep momentum alive. David realized that transformation happens through demonstration, not design. Theoretical perfection means little when no one in marketing can point to progress.From then on, he started aiming for traction over theory. That meant focusing on use cases that delivered impact quickly. He looked for under-supported teams that were hungry to try new tools, small markets that moved fast, and forgotten product lines desperate for attention. Those early adopters created visible success stories. Their enthusiasm turned into social proof that carried the project forward.Momentum built through results is what earns the right to transform. When others in the organization see evidence of progress, they stop questioning the system and start asking how to join it.Key takeaway: Martech transformations thrive on proof, not perfection. Target high-energy teams where quick wins are possible, deliver tangible outcomes fast, and use that momentum to secure organizational buy-in. Transformation is granted to those who prove it works, one visible success at a time.Why Internal Roadshows Make Martech Wins StickAn early martech win can disappear as quickly as it arrives. A shiny dashboard, a clean sync, or a new workflow can fade into noise unless you turn it into something bigger. David explains that the real work begins when you move beyond Slack celebrations and start building visibility across the company. The most effective teams bring their success to where influence actually happens. They show up in weekly leadership meetings for sales, data, and marketing, and they connect their progress to the company’s larger mission. That connection transforms an isolated result into shared purpose.“If you can get invited to those regular meetings and actually tie the win back to the larger vision, you’ll bring people along in a much bigger way,” David said.The mechanics of this matter. A martech team can create genuine momentum by turning their story into a live narrative that other departments care about. Each meeting becomes a checkpoint where others see how their world benefits. Instead of flooding channels with metrics, show impact in person. When people see faces, hear real stories, and feel included in the mission, adoption follows naturally.David has seen that the most credible voices are not the ones who built the system, but those who benefited from it. He encourages marketers to bring those users along. When a sales manager or a CX leader shares how a workflow saved hours or unlocked new visibility, trust deepens. One authentic endorsement in a meeting will do more for your reputation than a dozen slide decks.Momentum also depends on rhythm. Passionate advocates move ideas forward, not mass announcements. David’s playbook involves building a few strong allies who believe in your work, keeping promises, and maintaining a consistent drumbeat of delivery. Predictable progress creates confidence, and confidence earns permission to take bigger swings next time.Key takeaway: Wins that stay private fade fast. Present them live, in front of the right rooms, and connect them to the company’s shared mission. Bring along the people most impacted to tell their side of the story, and focus on nurturing a few genuine allies instead of broadcasting to everyone. That way you can turn one early success into a pattern of momentum that fuels every project that follows.Architecture Shapes How Teams Move and What They BelieveTechnology architecture does more than keep the lights on. It defines how much teams trust each other, how quickly they adapt, and how confidently a brand competes. David describes it as invisible scaffolding, the kind that quietly dictates how an organization moves. Once the systems are in place, the defaults harden into habits. Those habits shape behavior long after anyone remembers who set them.“People can get used to almost anything,” David said. “You acquire habits from architectural decisions made long ago, and it’s not conscious. You just walk into the context and act within it.”That pattern shows up inside every marketing organization. Data teams often build for accuracy and control, while marketers push for agility and access. The architecture decides which side wins. When the design prioritizes risk management, marketers spend months waiting for queries to be approved. When it prioritizes freedom without governance, trust breaks down the first time a campaign misfires. Neither version scales.Composable system...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Angela Vega, Director, Capabilities and Operations at Expedia Group.(00:00) - ‌Intro (01:18) - In This Episode (04:55) - Building an ADHD Techstack (11:11) - Why ADHD Shapes Better Decision-Making in Marketing Operations (19:06) - How to Turn ADHD Patterns Into Martech Leadership Strengths (23:38) - Why ADHD Helps Marketers Build Better Systems (31:25) - Building a Bridge Between Strategy and Execution in Marketing Ops (37:21) - Execution Defines Whether Ideas Live or Die (41:19) - Why Recent Execution Experience Builds Better Marketing Leaders (46:09) - How to Build Discernment in Martech Leadership (52:52) - Energy Economics for Marketing Ops Leaders (01:00:39) - How to Build a Personal Growth Formula in Marketing Leadership Summary: Angela built her ADHD tech stack as a way to survive the noise in her own head, turning distraction into design. Her workflow (Offload, Shape, Prototype, Loop, and Anchor) channels restless thought into motion through AI tools like Whisper and GPT. After her second pregnancy and a diagnosis that reframed her chaos, Angela stopped fighting her wiring and built systems that worked with it. Her fast, pattern-driven brain now thrives in marketing operations, where complexity rewards connection. She reads emotion like data, earning trust through clarity and transparency, and reminds leaders that execution, not strategy decks, moves companies forward. These days she measures success in energy and her mantra is “It’s just marketing, we’re not in the ER”.About AngelaAngela Vega has spent over 13 years in FinTech, health, and travel, she has unified global martech stacks, accelerated execution ninefold, and led CRM for Expedia, Vrbo, and Hotels.com, supporting over a billion monthly customer interactions. Her leadership grows both teams and ideas. She blends creative intuition with operational rigor, translating insight into systems that last. As a late-diagnosed ADHD professional, she experiments with AI to help neurodivergent leaders thrive, proving that marketing can be both human and scalable.Building an ADHD TechstackAngela built her ADHD Tech Stack to make her brain an ally instead of a hurdle. The system blends ADHD science with AI practicality, turning common executive function challenges into structured momentum. Each part of her workflow (Offload, Shape, Prototype, Loop, and Anchor) acts as a circuit for channeling mental noise into clarity. It is both a workflow and a survival strategy for people who juggle too many tabs at once, whether they are digital or mental.Her starting point came from frustration. Lists, sticky notes, and phone alarms worked for a while but always hit a ceiling. The real struggle was never remembering to do things but figuring out where to start. Executive function is about getting from idea to action, and for ADHD professionals, that gap can feel massive. Angela found her bridge in AI tools that could listen, capture, and organize her thinking in real time. Whisper transcribes her thoughts. GPT shapes them into frameworks. Gemini helps her plan and communicate with clarity.“I talk out loud all the time. Instead of saying things into the abyss, I say them into AI,” Angela said. “One system holds my to-dos, another handles updates for my boss, and another helps me break big goals into smaller steps.”Her stack follows five steps that anyone can adapt:Offload: Speak or type ideas into AI to clear mental clutter.Shape: Ask AI to sort and group ideas into logical categories.Prototype: Turn thoughts into quick drafts or mockups to trigger dopamine and action.Loop: Use AI for feedback, reflection, and gentle nudges that replace self-criticism.Anchor: Set reminders, templates, and adaptive systems that help you return to projects smoothly.Angela’s framework works because it aligns tools with real human behavior instead of forcing people into rigid systems. The design rewards momentum over perfection. It gives permission to think out loud, change direction, and experiment without shame. Every ADHD brain operates differently, so every system should too. AI’s flexibility makes that possible by turning scattered thoughts into structured workflows without losing the spark that drives creativity.Key takeaway: Treat productivity as a design challenge, not a discipline test. Use AI to capture ideas before they vanish, shape them into usable form, and build adaptive anchors that forgive interruptions. That way you can create a personal martech system that channels ADHD energy into consistent output, steady progress, and fewer moments of paralysis.Why ADHD Shapes Better Decision-Making in Marketing OperationsADHD rewires how people handle complexity, and marketing operations thrive on complexity. Angela discovered that her diagnosis reframed everything about her work and leadership. Years of restless multitasking, late-night thought spirals, and endless side projects suddenly made sense. Her mind was not unfocused. It was constantly building new connections, scanning for patterns, and searching for stimulation that most work environments suppress.Her diagnosis arrived during a storm of personal and professional change. After her second pregnancy, her coping systems stopped working. Therapy no longer grounded her, medication clashed with her body, and grief from losing her father-in-law blurred her focus. Meanwhile, the pressure at work continued to grow. Leadership demanded stability while her world spun faster each week. Reaching for help was not an act of surrender. It was a recalibration of survival.“I have a lot of thoughts in my head. It’s sometimes super hard to fall asleep. I think of the twenty things that might go wrong and the hundred hobbies I have,” Angela said.When testing confirmed ADHD combined type, disbelief gave way to validation. The diagnosis gave shape to her chaos. She stopped labeling her quirks as flaws and started understanding them as traits with purpose. Her curiosity was a strength, not a distraction. Her brain thrived in dynamic systems where rules shifted and creativity met precision. That explained her pull toward marketing operations, where nothing stays still and every campaign or data sync has moving parts that need decoding.Angela began building systems that complemented her wiring instead of fighting against it. She used visual workflows to clear mental clutter, broke large tasks into tight sprints, and surrounded herself with teammates who balanced her energy with structure. ADHD did not make her less capable. It made her more adaptive. In a field that rewards fast problem-solving and parallel thinking, her mind became her greatest operational advantage.Key takeaway: ADHD changes how leaders process and prioritize information, and awareness turns that difference into strategy. Identify where your energy peaks and build workflows around those cycles. Use external systems to store what your brain refuses to hold. Protect deep-focus windows instead of forcing consistency. The goal is not to tame your wiring but to design with it, that way you can turn what once felt chaotic into sustainable momentum.How to Turn ADHD Patterns Into Martech Leadership StrengthsADHD often gets framed as distraction, but in martech leadership, it can function as accelerated pattern recognition. Angela’s brain fires fast. She sees connections before most people finish explaining the problem. “I can jump from one topic to another pretty quickly because in my mind I’ve already created the five c...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Aboli Gangreddiwar, Senior Director of Lifecycle and Product Marketing at Credible. (00:00) - Intro (01:10) - In This Episode (04:54) - Agentic Infrastructure Components in Marketing Operations (09:52) - Self Healing Data Quality Agents (16:36) - Data Activation Agents (26:56) - Campaign QA Agents (32:53) - Compliance Agents (39:59) - Hivemind Memory Curator (51:22) - AI Browsers Could Power Living Documentation (58:03) - How to Stay Balanced as a Marketing Leader Summary: Aboli and Phil explore AI agent use cases and the operational efficiency potential of AI for marketing Ops teams. Data quality agents promise self-healing pipelines, though their value depends on strong metadata. QA agents catch broken links, design flaws, and compliance issues before launch, shrinking review cycles from days to minutes. An AI hivemind memory curator that records every experiment and outcome, giving teams durable knowledge instead of relying on long-tenured employees. Documentation agents close the loop, with AI browsers hinting at a future where SOPs and playbooks stay accurate by default. About AboliAboli Gangreddiwar is the Senior Director of Lifecycle and Product Marketing at Credible, where she leads growth, retention, and product adoption for the personal finance marketplace. She has previously led lifecycle and product marketing at Sundae, helping scale the business from Series A to Series C, and held senior roles at Prosper Marketplace and Wells Fargo. Aboli has built and managed high-performing teams across acquisition, lifecycle, and product marketing, with a track record of driving customer growth through a data-driven, customer-first approach.Agentic Infrastructure Components in Marketing OperationsAgentic infrastructure depends on layers that work together instead of one-off experiments. Aboli starts with the data layer because every agent needs the same source of truth. If your data is fragmented, agents will fail before they even start. Choosing whether Snowflake, Databricks, or another warehouse becomes less about vendor preference and more about creating a system where every agent reads from the same place. That way you can avoid rework and inconsistencies before anything gets deployed.Orchestration follows as the layer that turns isolated tools into workflows. Most teams play with a single agent at a time, like one that generates subject lines or one that codes email templates. Those agents may produce something useful, but orchestration connects them into a process that runs without human babysitting. In lifecycle marketing, that could mean a copy agent handing text to a Figma agent for design, which then passes to a coding agent for HTML. The difference is night and day: disconnected experiments versus a relay where agents actually collaborate.“If I am sending out an email campaign, I could have a copy agent, a Figma agent, and a coding agent. Right now, teams are building those individually, but at some point you need orchestration so they can pass work back and forth.”Execution is where many experiments stall. An agent cannot just generate outputs in a vacuum. It needs an environment where the work lives and runs. Sometimes this looks like a custom GPT creating copy inside OpenAI. Other times it connects directly to a marketing automation platform to publish campaigns. Execution means wiring agents into systems that already matter for your business. That way you can turn novelty into production-level work.Feedback and human oversight close the loop. Feedback ensures agents learn from results instead of repeating the same mistakes, and human review protects brand standards, compliance, and legal requirements. Tools like Zapier already help agents talk across systems, and protocols like MCP push the idea even further. These pieces are developing quickly, but most teams still treat them as experiments. Building infrastructure means treating feedback and oversight as required layers, not extras.Key takeaway: Agentic infrastructure requires more than a handful of isolated agents. Build it in five layers: a unified data warehouse, orchestration to coordinate handoffs, execution inside production tools, feedback loops that improve performance, and human oversight for brand safety. Draw this stack for your own team and map what exists today. That way you can see the gaps clearly and design the next layer with intention instead of chasing hype.Self Healing Data Quality AgentsAutonomous data quality agents are being pitched as plug-and-play custodians for your warehouse. Vendors claim they can auto-fix more than 200 common data problems using patterns they have already mapped from other customers. Instead of ripping apart your stack, you “plug in” the agent to your warehouse or existing data layer. From there, the system runs on the execution layer, watching data as it flows in, cleaning and correcting records without waiting for human approval. The promise is speed and proactivity: problems handled in real time rather than reports generated after the damage is already done.The mechanics are ambitious. These agents rely on pre-mapped patterns, best practices, and the accumulated experience of diverse customer sources. Their features go beyond simple alerts. Vendors market capabilities like:Data issue detection that flags anomalies as records arrive.Auto-generated rules so you do not have to write manual SQL for every edge case.Auto-resolution workflows that decide which record wins in conflict scenarios.Self-healing pipelines that reroute or repair flows before they break downstream dashboards.Aboli noted that the concept makes sense in theory but still depends heavily on the quality of metadata. She recalled using Snowflake Copilot and asking it for user lists by specific criteria. The model understood her intent, but it pulled from the wrong tables.“If it had the right metadata, the right dictionary, or if I had access to the documentation, I could have navigated it better and corrected the tables it was looking at,” Aboli said.Phil highlighted how this overlaps with data observability tools. Companies like Informatica, Qlik, and Ataccama already dominate Gartner’s “augmented data quality” quadrant, while newcomers are rebranding the category as “agentic data management.” DQ Labs markets itself as a leader in this space. Startups like Acceldata in India and Delpha in France are pitching autonomous agents as the future, while Alation has gone further by releasing a suite of agents under an “Agentic Data Intelligence” platform. The buzz is loud, but the mechanics echo tools that ops teams have worked with for years.Aboli stressed that marketers and ops leaders should resist jumping straight to procurement. Demoing these tools can spark useful ideas, and sometimes the exposure itself inspires practical fixes in-house. The key is to connect adoption to a specific pain point. If your team loses days untangling duplicates and broken joins, the ROI might be obvious. If your pipelines already hold together through strict governance, then the spend may not pay off.Key takeaway: Autonomous data quality agents can detect issues, generate rules, resolve conflicts, and even heal pipelines in real time. Their effectiveness depends on metadata discipline and the actual pain of bad data in your org. Use vendor demos as a scouting tool, then match the investment to measurable business problems. That way you can avoid buzzword chasing and apply agentic tools where they drive the most immediate value.Data Activation Agents

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Henk-jan ter Brugge, Head of global digital programs and Martech at Philips.(00:00) - Intro (01:17) - In This Episode (05:11) - Embracing the Digital Pirate Mindset in Martech (16:18) - Why Clean Data Is the Real Treasure Map for AI in Marketing Ops (19:20) - Why Composable Martech Stacks Work in High Seas Regulated Enterprises (24:35) - Rethinking Martech as People Tech (32:51) - Elevating Martech Teams Beyond Button Pushing (37:16) - Where Martech Should Report in the Organization (42:58) - Unlocking Innovation Through the Long Tail of Martech (47:42) - The Limits of Vendor Isolation in Martech (52:12) - Philips Digital Marketing & e-Commerce Stack (55:10) - How to Use Weekly Prioritization to Protect Energy Summary: Henk-jan works like a pirate inside the navy, exposing inefficiency with data, redesigning roles around real capabilities, and breaking AI promises into measurable wins backed by clean data and clear standards. He treats composability as an operating model with budgets tied to usage, gives local teams autonomy within guardrails, and measures martech by how it serves people and drives revenue. Ops leaders earn influence by pulling in allies and securing executive sponsorship, while reporting debates matter less than accountability and outcomes. Real innovation comes from embracing the long tail of smaller tools, working with vendors who integrate into the ecosystem, building adoption models with champions, and protecting energy through ruthless prioritization.About Henk-janHenk-jan ter Brugge is Head of Digital Programs and Martech at Philips, where he leads the global digital marketing and ecommerce technology team. With over a decade at Philips, he has driven transformation across CRM, ecommerce, sales enablement, web experience, ad tech, analytics, and AI innovation. Henk-jan is a lean and agile certified leader who believes technology is an enabler, but it’s people who create the real impact. His career spans international experience in Seoul, Paris, and Shanghai, and he is a frequent keynote speaker on martech, salestech, and digital transformation. Passionate about improving health and wellbeing through meaningful innovation, he connects strategy, technology, and change management to deliver customer value at scale.Embracing the Digital Pirate Mindset in MartechPirates were early system hackers. They rewrote rules on their ships, experimented with shared decision-making, and introduced ideas like equal pay centuries before they reached land. That spirit of rewriting norms has carried into Henk-jan’s work in martech. He frames the pirate as someone inside the navy, pushing the big ship to move differently, rather than a rogue causing chaos on the outside.Corporate inertia creates its own myths. Vendor onboarding still takes 12 to 18 months in some organizations. Translation cycles hold content hostage for weeks. Colleagues accept these delays as culture, with a shrug and a “that’s just how we do things.” Henk-jan refuses to let tradition dictate output. He arms himself with data and turns it into proof. If a team claims a translation cycle takes three months, he presents the real number: 10, 15, maybe 20 days.“Everything we say can be data driven. If someone tells me translation takes three months, I can show with data that it takes 10, 15, maybe 20 days. The data talks there.”The pirate mindset works only when it builds coalitions. Lone rebels fade out in corporate structures. Movements form when people across teams share the same impatience for inefficiency and the same hunger for progress. That is why Henk-jan focuses on allies who welcome change. With them, he introduces controlled experiments that rewire expectations step by step until the new way becomes the default.One of his boldest moves came in team design. He rebranded product owners as platform managers. They stopped acting like ticket clerks and became capability builders, consultants, and business partners. They handled strategy, education, and enablement, while still owning the backlog. A time study revealed that 70 percent of team energy had been going into internal operations. After the shift, 60 percent went directly into business-facing work. The lesson was clear: titles shape behavior, and behavior shapes impact.Key takeaway: The digital pirate mindset thrives when you expose inefficiency with data, recruit allies who share your appetite for change, and redesign roles so teams build capabilities instead of servicing tickets. Work inside the system, use transparency to gain trust, and experiment in controlled steps. That way you can redirect energy from internal bureaucracy toward direct customer value, creating momentum that compounds over time.Why Clean Data Is the Real Treasure Map for AI in Marketing OpsSpeaking of chasing treasures… AI has forced leadership teams to finally pay attention to the quality of their data. Henk-jan described it with a simple observation: “Everybody in the company becomes a technologist in a way, even the CEO.” Executives want automation, optimization, and sharper analytics, but none of those things matter without reliable data flowing through the system.Requests for a CDP illustrate the problem. Leaders hear the acronym and assume it represents an instant fix. Henk-jan has seen this cycle many times and insists the smarter move is to break the vision into small, practical wins. CEOs need short stories they can tell at the end of a quarter, stories that show how clean data lifted conversion or reduced wasted spend. Large programs gain momentum when they stack up these smaller wins rather than selling one massive transformation.“The only way to do that well is to slice it up, basically to show some promising use cases. Talking CEO, they need some impactful stories they need to have at the end of the quarter to show what we have delivered.”Clean data depends on discipline across the organization. Henk-jan stressed the need for rules: standards for how data is collected, shared definitions across content systems, and taxonomies that keep categories consistent. Integrations and lifecycle management depend on that structure. Without it, AI experiments turn into siloed pilots that never scale.AI becomes useful only when the groundwork is finished. Leaders may chase demos that look impressive, but real value comes from standards, integration discipline, and lifecycle maturity. These foundations create systems that grow stronger over time rather than projects that fizzle out after launch.Key takeaway: Clean data gives AI something to stand on. Break big promises into small, measurable wins that executives can celebrate at the end of a quarter. Pair those wins with clear rules on data standards, integration discipline, and taxonomy. That way you can build credibility quickly, prove value, and create a foundation where AI programs expand instead of stall.Why Composable Martech Stacks Work in High Seas Regulated EnterprisesComposable stacks sound exciting in theory, but at enterprise scale the question is always about execution. Henk-jan calls it the “cradle to grave” lifecycle of martech, and he is not exaggerating. Every new tool at Philips runs through a process: onboarding, building and deploying, adopting, improving, and eventually decommissioning. Each step matters because every skipped detail becomes someone’s day-to-day problem.He warns against the common trap of treating tools like silver bullets. Buying a platform for insights or personalization only matters if there are people inside the business who can operate it. Henk-jan has seen too many o...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Aditi Uppal, Vice President, Digital Marketing and Demand Generation at Teradata.(00:00) - Intro (01:15) - In this Episode (04:03) - How to Use Customer Conversations to Validate Marketing Data (10:49) - Balancing Quantitative Data with Customer Conversations (16:14) - Gathering Customer Insights From Underrated Feedback Channels (22:00) - Activating Voice of Customer with AI Agents (29:09) - Voice of Customer Martech Examples (34:48) - How to Use Rapid Response Teams in Marketing Ops (39:07) - Building Customer Obsession Into Marketing Culture (43:44) - Why Voice of Customer Works Differently in B2B and B2C (48:26) - Why Life Integration Works Better Than Work Life Balance Summary: Aditi shows how five honest conversations can reshape how you read data, because customer language carries context that numbers miss. She points to overlooked signals like product usage trails, community chatter, sales recordings, and event conversations, then explains how to turn them into action through a simple pipeline of capture, tag, route, track, and activate. Tools like BrightEdge and UserEvidence prove their worth by removing grunt work and delivering usable outputs. The system only works when culture supports it, with rapid response channels, proposals that start with customer problems, and councils that align leaders around real needs. Blend the speed of B2C listening with the discipline of B2B execution, and you build strategies grounded in reality.About AditiAditi Uppal is a data-driven growth leader with over a decade of experience driving digital transformation, product marketing, and go-to-market strategy across India, Canada, and the U.S. She currently serves as Vice President of Digital Marketing and Demand Generation at Teradata, where she leads global strategies that fuel pipeline growth and customer engagement. Throughout her career, Aditi has built scalable marketing systems, launched partner programs delivering double-digit revenue gains, and led multi-million-dollar campaign operations across more than 50 technologies. Recognized as a B2B Revenue Marketing Game Changer, she is known for blending strategy, operations, and technology to create high-performing teams and measurable business impact.How to Use Customer Conversations to Validate Marketing DataDashboards create scale, but they do not always create confidence. Aditi explains that marketers often stop at what the model tells them, without checking whether real people would ever phrase things the same way. Early in her career she spent time talking directly to retailers, truck drivers, and mechanics. Those interactions were messy and slow, filled with handwritten notes, but they gave her words and patterns that no software could generate. That language still shapes how she thinks about campaigns today.She argues that even a small number of conversations can sharpen a marketer’s decisions. Five well-chosen interviews can give more clarity than months of chasing analytics dashboards. Once you hear a customer describe a problem in their own terms, the charts you already have feel more trustworthy. As Aditi put it:“If you get an insight that says this is their pain point, it helps so much to hear a customer saying it. The words they use resonate with them in ways marketers’ words often do not.”She points out that B2C teams benefit from built-in feedback loops since their channels naturally keep them closer to customers. B2B teams, on the other hand, often hide behind personas and assumptions. Aditi suggests widening the pool by talking to students and early-career professionals who already use enterprise software. They may not be buyers today, but they become decision makers tomorrow. Those conversations cost almost nothing and create raw material more valuable than agency-produced content.She frames the real task as choosing the right method for the right question. If you want to refine messaging, talk to your most active customers. If you want to understand adoption patterns, run reports. If you want to pressure test a product roadmap, combine both and compare the results. Decide upfront what you need and when you need it. Then continue adjusting, because customer understanding is not a one-time project, it is an ongoing discipline.Key takeaway: Use customer conversations as a validation layer for your data. Pair five direct interviews with your dashboards, and you gain language, context, and trust that numbers alone cannot provide. Always define why you need an insight, then pick the method that gets you there fastest. That way you can build messaging, campaigns, and roadmaps grounded in reality rather than in assumptions.Balancing Quantitative Data with Customer ConversationsMarketers keep adding dashboards, yet confidence in the numbers rarely grows. Aditi argues that a few customer conversations often do more to build certainty than a warehouse of metrics. Early in her career she spent long days interviewing retailers, truck drivers, and mechanics. She filled notebooks with their words, then worked through the mess to find common threads. The process was slow, but it created clarity that still guides her perspective today.“You do not need hundreds of those conversations. You just need five, and you will come out so much more confident in the data you are looking at.”That perspective challenges a common assumption in B2B marketing. Models can predict buying intent, but they cannot capture the urgency or tone that customers bring to their own words. Dashboards may flag data scientists as target buyers, yet when you sit with an aspiring data scientist, you hear frustrations and motivations that algorithms miss. Real language often carries sharper meaning than the polished words marketers invent for campaigns.Aditi warns that relying only on quantitative signals pushes teams into a self-referential loop. Marketers build strategies based on metrics, then describe those strategies in their own buzzwords. Direct conversations break that loop. Even five interviews can ground your messaging, highlight gaps in the data, and validate where models are directionally right. B2C teams often benefit from tighter feedback loops through customer-facing channels. B2B teams need to create their own versions of those loops by talking to users directly, including students and early-career practitioners who represent the next generation of decision makers.Every stage of marketing benefits from this practice. Roadmaps become sharper, content becomes more resonant, and campaign ideas carry more weight when tested against real voices. Customer interviews cost little compared to polished content campaigns, yet they create a foundation of confidence that technology alone cannot replicate.Key takeaway: Five direct customer conversations can build more confidence than a room full of dashboards. Capture the exact words your buyers use, compare them with your data models, and use both inputs together. That way you can validate your metrics, sharpen your messaging, and trust that your strategy connects with the people who matter most.Gathering Customer Insights From Underrated Feedback ChannelsMarketers love surveys. They love sending out NPS links, post-purchase forms, and satisfaction checkboxes that make dashboards look busy. Aditi is blunt about the limits of this ritual. A buying committee has users, influencers, and decision makers. Each group has different needs, and you cannot lump them into a single “customer voice.” If you want useful signals, you have to decide who you are li...

What’s up folks, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Rebecca Corliss, VP Marketing at GrowthLoop. (00:00) - Intro (01:20) - In This Episode (03:46) - The Future Agentic Marketing Org (07:59) - The Rise of the Marketing Dispatch Layer (14:47) - Lifecycle Marketers Belong at the Center of Every Agentic Org (21:19) - Why Channel Specialists Must Shift to Journey Orchestration (25:06) - How To Actually Become More Strategic (29:28) - This Team Promoted ChatGPT to Director of Product Marketing (32:55) - What it Means to Be a Specialist in the Moment Works (37:12) - How Systems Thinking Helps Lifecycle Marketers Shine in Agentic AI (40:10) - How AI Expands the Role of Marketing Ops (43:37) - The Speculative Future of Marketing With Compute Allocation and Machine Customers (46:35) - Mesh of Agents Coordinating Across Departments (50:07) - The Rise of Machine Customers (53:55) - How to Stay Energized as a Marketing Leader Summary: Rebecca imagines a future marketing org built on three layers: leadership fluent in data and AI, a dispatch control tower staffed by engineers and privacy experts, and pods that design customer journeys while agents handle scale. Lifecycle marketers are essential to this dispatch layer and provide the “heart,” keeping campaigns authentic. Her own path as a “specialist in the moment” shows the power of adaptability, diving deep where it counts and moving on with impact. The marketers who thrive will be those who pair technical fluency with empathy and judgment.About RebeccaRebecca is a veteran marketing executive known for building engines that drive outsized growth. She is currently VP of Marketing at GrowthLoop, shaping the go-to-market for its Compound Marketing Engine. Previously, she scaled VergeSense from Series A through Series C with over 8X ARR growth, and at Owl Labs she took the company from launch to 35,000 customers worldwide while establishing it as a future-of-work leader. She also spent eight years at HubSpot, where she grew demand generation to 60K leads per month, doubled blog-driven leads, and built leadership programs that developed the next generation of marketers. Across every role, Rebecca has consistently turned early-stage momentum into durable, scalable growth.The Future Agentic Marketing Org and the Rise of the Marketing Dispatch LayerRebecca lays out a future where marketing org charts gain an entirely new layer. She predicts three core structures: leadership, dispatch, and pods. Leadership continues to steer strategy, but the demands on CMOs change. They will need fluency in data systems, architecture, and AI operations. Rebecca explains that “CMOs have to flex their technical chops and their data systems and architecture chops,” a shift for leaders who have historically leaned on brand or budget narratives.The dispatch layer functions as the operational hub for campaigns. This group manages data flows, AI orchestration, and channel activations. It operates like a control room for all outbound communication. Dispatch is staffed with people who rarely sat in marketing orgs before. Data engineers move in from IT, privacy specialists join the table, and Rebecca even describes “traffic cops” who arbitrate which campaigns reach a customer when multiple business units compete for the same audience.“Imagine this new dispatch layer, the group that is thinking about the systems, the data, the AI, the architecture, and campaign activation for the entire marketing org holistically.”Pods sit at the edge of this system, each one tasked with a specific objective. A retail pod might obsess over repeat purchases and next best product recommendations. Pods shape customer journeys, creative work, and product presentation. They do not execute campaigns directly. Instead, they work with dispatch to push scaled, AI-driven activations that tie back to their mission. This structure gives pods focus while ensuring campaign execution remains coordinated and efficient.Rebecca stresses that humans remain responsible for organizing this system. Agents will handle execution, but people set goals, decide structures, and elevate the skills required to manage AI effectively. The companies that thrive will be the ones that invest in human fluency now, especially in data architecture and cross-functional collaboration. Marketing leaders cannot wait for agents to make the org smarter. They have to build teams ready to use agents well.Key takeaway: Treat dispatch as a new operational hub inside marketing. Staff it with cross-functional talent such as data engineers, privacy experts, and campaign traffic managers. Align pods around clear business outcomes, and let them focus on customer journeys and creative execution. Give dispatch responsibility for scaling campaigns through AI agents. Start by training CMOs and their leadership peers to speak the language of data and AI strategy. That way you can prepare your organization to actually run an agentic structure instead of scrambling when competitors already have it in place.Lifecycle Marketers Belong at the Center of Every Agentic OrgLifecycle marketers thrive in environments where customer signals drive execution. Rebecca describes them as the people who study every stage of the journey, then translate that understanding into activation rules that actually serve the customer. Agents may handle the heavy lifting, but lifecycle marketers decide what matters and when it matters. They are the human layer that keeps the entire system from drifting into mechanical noise.“If it supports the customer, it supports the business objectives. That is the way everyone wins.”Rebecca explains that lifecycle marketers split into two groups. Some will lean technical and operate directly in the dispatch layer. They will define activation strategies, ensure campaigns run with precision, and use data to protect customer-first thinking. Others will integrate into pods and shape the full journey, using systems thinking to design one-to-one experiences at scale. Both groups carry the same DNA: empathy paired with curiosity about how AI can extend their reach.This structure becomes even more important in content. Generative AI can produce endless material, but personalization collapses if the output feels artificial. Lifecycle marketers bring the judgment required to keep content aligned with customer needs. They will be the people asking hard questions about tone, timing, and authenticity while still leveraging AI to handle scale. The combination of empathy and technical curiosity will keep campaigns human, even as agents flood the stack.Rebecca calls this quality “heart,” and she sees it as the non-negotiable element that AI cannot replicate. Lifecycle marketers carry responsibility for maintaining authenticity while still driving one-to-one marketing. Their role is not to fight against automation but to guide it toward outcomes that respect the customer experience.Key takeaway: Lifecycle marketers should sit at the center of every agentic org. Place technical lifecycle marketers in the dispatch layer to design activation rules that protect the customer. Embed strategic lifecycle marketers inside pods to architect journeys that scale with authenticity. Treat empathy as the operational safeguard, and give lifecycle marketers the authority to enforce it. That way you can use AI to expand capacity without sacrificing trust.Why Marketing Channel Specialists are FadingChannel specialists are facing a turning point. Rebecca explains that AI agents now handle many of the mechanical tasks that ...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with John Saunders, VP of Product at Nova / Power Digital Marketing. Power Digital is a San Diego-based growth marketing firm. Nova is their proprietary marketing technology. (00:00) - Intro (01:15) - In This Episode (03:26) - How an Agency Operating System Reduces Silos (05:47) - Why Context Driven Analytics Replaces Dashboards (09:15) - Building a Single Source of Truth in Marketing Data (16:00) - Building an AI Cockpit Before AI Copilots (18:26) - Why Data Accuracy and Transparency Build AI Trust (28:28) - Building Internal Data Products for Agencies (34:09) - Reducing Complexity in Martech Product Development (39:16) - How To Tell If An AI Tool Is More Than A Wrapper (46:49) - How to Build Client Portals That Clients Actually Use (49:50) - Finding Happiness in Building and Experimentation Summary: Agencies are drowning in tools, dashboards, and AI gimmicks, but John Saunders has spent years building something that actually works. Nova started as an internal fix and grew into an operating system that strips away noise, delivers context with every number, and gives AI a cockpit filled with real operational data. Along the way John learned that trust comes from accuracy, speed, and transparency, and that adoption only happens when products remove steps instead of adding them. From client portals to analytics to AI, his story shows how clarity beats complexity and why agencies that chase it finally get technology that feels like leverage instead of liability.About JohnJohn Saunders is the Vice President of Product at Power Digital Marketing. He leads strategy, UX, operations, and AI for nova, the agency’s enterprise marketing technology platform that connects with more than 2,000 integrations. Since 2021, he has grown the technology team from 2 to 40 members, delivered more than 20 production-ready applications, and developed intelligence tools that improve client retention and increase lifetime value. He has also built partnerships with Google, Meta, TikTok, and Amazon that resulted in multi-million-dollar funding and new product capabilities.Prior to his current role, John served as Vice President of Technology. He built the first applications that became the foundation of nova and improved scalable systems, API integrations, cloud performance, and automation for the firm. He previously worked as Software Development Project Manager at Internet Marketing Inc. (now REQ), and Co-Founder of Brightside Network Media, a platform that combined technical design with storytelling to highlight culture and music.John has also mentored students at the Lavin Entrepreneurship Center at San Diego State University. He guided undergraduates in UX, product strategy, and agile workflows while encouraging leadership and collaboration in a hands-on environment.How an Agency Operating System Reduces SilosAgencies are drowning in tools. CRMs handle sales, project boards track tasks, invoicing software manages billing, and analytics dashboards measure performance. Each tool may solve a specific problem, but together they create a scattered system where every team works in isolation. John Saunders has seen this problem repeat across agencies, and his solution is direct. Build a single operating system that reflects how the agency actually works rather than relying on disconnected platforms that never sync.John described Nova as that system. Instead of forcing teams to reinvent contracts or pricing every time, Nova uses a service library with set rates and guidelines. Automation handles the repetitive work, so teams spend less time drafting proposals and more time serving clients. Nova acts as a hub for the agency’s real workflows. It connects sales, operations, and delivery into one shared environment where everyone can see the same information."With an agency OS, we are trying to fix this problem where there are so many tools and platforms that people work on, and that inherently creates silos. With one system focused on operations, it provides a central spot for everybody to work from, which creates efficiency and alignment."The need for this kind of system is obvious once you look closely at agency life. Account managers keep their own spreadsheets, sales leaders adjust pricing rules on the fly, and creative teams use tools that never connect with operations. The result is misalignment, duplicated effort, and wasted hours. An operating system forces the agency to define its rules and then codify them into the platform. That way you can cut the daily noise and create repeatable workflows that scale.Agencies often assume the next SaaS subscription will solve their problems. The reality is that the core problems are internal. Building an operating system like Nova does not replace tools, it makes them work together. It creates one place where every team operates from the same playbook. That way you can reduce inefficiency, strengthen alignment, and free people to focus on client work instead of wrestling with tool silos.Key takeaway: An agency operating system reduces silos by centralizing contracts, pricing, and service guidelines inside one platform. Standardized rules and automation save time, while a shared hub keeps every team aligned. Instead of adding another tool to an already bloated stack, define your workflows, codify them into an operating system, and create an environment where teams work together with speed and clarity.Why Context Driven Analytics Replaces DashboardsDashboards impress people for about five minutes. They get pasted into a slide deck, admired in a meeting, and then forgotten. They look sleek but rarely change how teams actually work. John Saunders describes them as “dead weight,” and he is right. Most dashboards are static trophies, not decision-making tools.John insists that analytics must carry a point of view. Agencies do their best work when they stop presenting raw numbers and start tying those numbers to judgment. Nova, the product his team builds at Power Digital, bakes that opinion into everything it produces. Every measurement is run through a filter: does this reflect the right way to evaluate performance? If the answer is no, it never makes it to the client. That rule sounds simple, yet it separates meaningful analytics from the noise of charts that show data without direction.He also points out that numbers without context fail to tell the full story. Performance depends on more than what a database records. It depends on client conversations, launch dates, migrations, and campaign decisions that live outside structured tables. Nova integrates those details directly into the analytics layer. The result is data that reads like a story, not a sterile snapshot.“Performance isn’t just the data itself. It’s everything around it.”John sees analytics moving toward systems that feel conversational. Static dashboards freeze data in time, while teams need a living engine that blends numbers with the narrative behind them. Instead of flipping between charts and email threads, the analysis itself should surface both at once. That way analytics become a dialogue with context, not a set of disconnected metrics.Key takeaway: Treat dashboards as disposable and focus on analytics that combine three things: a strong opinion about what matters, context from the real world, and delivery in a format that feels like a conversation. When you give your team numbers plus narrative, you give them clarity that drives decisions. Replace static charts with context driven analytics so people act faster, waste less energy, and actually understand what the data is te...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Olga Andrienko, Former VP of Marketing Ops at Semrush. (00:00) - Intro (01:24) - In This Episode (03:55) - How AI Agents Reshape Marketing Ops Roles (08:53) - How To Beat AI Imposter Syndrome And Start Using Custom GPTs (13:28) - How AI Content Agents Generate Drafts Using Internal Context (24:29) - How to Use a Risk and Reward Grid to Prioritize AI Projects (33:19) - How To Use Google Workspace To Skip AI Vendor Approvals (40:00) - How To Decide Which AI Agent to Use (46:44) - How To Build an AI-First Reflex in Marketing Ops (51:59) - AI’s Endgame: Play-to-Earn and Mandatory Human Quotas (01:03:58) - What Happens When You Optimize Your Body Like a Martech Stack Summary: Olga thought she was ahead of the AI curve, but a weekend course on autonomous systems showed her she was thinking too small. She pitched a shared internal AI stack at Semrush, built systems off APIs, skipped procurement by using already-approved tools, and tracked hours saved instead of promising vague ROI. She started with the work she already knew, made it faster, and used that time to build better systems. Now she’s looking ahead, watching work blur into participation, prepping for human quotas, and making sure ops teams aren’t caught off guard while the rest of the company is still testing prompts.About OlgaOlga Andrienko spent nearly 12 years at Semrush, where she helped build one of the strongest B2B marketing brands in tech. She started by leading social media, then expanded into global marketing, eventually becoming VP of Brand and later VP of Marketing Operations. She helped guide the company through its IPO, launched brand campaigns that drove massive reach, and scaled AI systems that saved her teams hundreds of hours. Most recently, she built out a marketing and AI ops function from scratch, automating reporting, content feedback, and influencer analytics across the org. Recently, Olga announced she was leaving Semrush to go out on her own. She’s now building a marketing SaaS product while advising companies on how to use AI agents to rethink marketing operations from the inside out.How AI Agents Reshape Marketing Ops RolesOlga had already logged countless hours with Claude and ChatGPT. She was building chatbots, fine-tuning prompts, and staying sharp on every update. Then she joined a weekend course on agent-based AI. At first, it felt like overkill. By the end of day two, she had completely changed direction. That course forced her to realize she had been spending time in the shallow end. Agent AI wasn’t just a smarter assistant. It was a structural overhaul. It changed what could be automated and who was needed to do it.Agent AI builds systems instead of just responding to inputs. Olga described a clean divide between tools that help you finish tasks faster and agents that actually run the tasks for you. How agent AI differs from task-level tools:Traditional tools require manual input for each useAgent systems operate autonomously and initiate actionsTools accelerate individual workAgents orchestrate end-to-end processesTools help you move fasterAgents help you step away entirelyShe saw use cases stacking up that didn’t fit inside marketing’s current playbook. Systems could now operate without manual checkpoints. Processes that once relied on operators could be built into fully autonomous loops.“I went into panic mode. Even with our tech stack at Semrush, I realized we were behind. Every company is behind.”The realization came with a cost model. Internal adoption of Claude and ChatGPT was rising fast. Olga noticed growing subscription bills across teams, with everyone spinning up individual accounts. She ran the numbers and saw the future expense curve. Giving each person their own sandbox didn’t scale. What made sense was building shared tools through APIs, designed to solve repeatable tasks. That way you can maintain quality, cut costs, and still give everyone access to powerful AI systems.Timing mattered. Olga was coming off a quarter where she had high visibility, internal trust, and a direct line to leadership. Instead of waiting for AI priorities to come down from the top, she used that leverage to move. She pitched a new team and made the case for shifting from brand to ops. She had technical interest, political capital, and an urgent belief that velocity mattered more than perfection.Key takeaway: Marketing ops leaders are uniquely positioned to build agent-level systems that scale across teams. Instead of waiting for strategy teams to greenlight AI plans, use cost data to make the case for shared infrastructure. Build with APIs, not individual tool access. Push for automation at the system level, not just task-level assistance. If you understand the workflows, know the tools, and already have trust inside the org, you are the one who should be building what comes next.How To Beat AI Imposter Syndrome And Start Using Custom GPTsAI imposter syndrome shows up fast. It tells you the developers will handle it, the data team will figure it out, and you should stick to writing copy or launching campaigns. Olga ignored that voice. She opened up ChatGPT, looked at the most repetitive task on her plate, and started testing. No credentials. No roadmap. Just frustration, curiosity, and a weekend.“Anybody who says they have figured AI out or that they’re on top of this, they’re lying to you.”She did not wait for a manager to assign her an AI project. She looked for work she already understood. Rewriting vague marketing text. Fixing formatting issues. Translating copy into other languages without sounding robotic. These were not moonshot experiments. They were annoyances. She built a custom GPT for each one.That work gave her traction. It also gave her time back. She found herself reclaiming an hour a day just by handing off the small, repeatable parts of her job. That time opened up new space to build more. The learning came naturally because it was grounded in daily tasks she already owned.“If we look at this like a Maslow pyramid, the repetitive tasks are the base layer. That’s where you start.”Confidence grows when the work starts to feel useful. That shift does not come from reading whitepapers or watching LinkedIn demos. It comes from applying the tool to one thing you do every week and watching it cut your time in half. That is how you build fluency. Not all at once. One custom GPT at a time.Key takeaway: Choose a task you already know well and automate it with a custom GPT. Keep the instructions specific and tied to your current workflow. Run it repeatedly until it saves you real time. Then build another. Confidence in AI tools comes from using them to solve work you already understand, not from waiting until you feel qualified.AI Use Cases in Marketing: AI Agents Creating Drafts from Context That Humans PerfectAI content agents are getting better, but they are not off the leash. Olga built two systems to test how far automation can go without turning content into generic filler. One starts with human writers. The other starts with a structured form. Both rely on real performance data, brand knowledge, and experienced editors.The first system runs inside Google Docs. Writers draft copy. The AI overlay scores it using past campaign performance, conversion data, and hand-labeled examples of strong and weak copy. It flags weak headlines, vague CTAs, bloated structure. Then it explains why. Olga’s team noticed that when the starting draft is weak, AI only sm...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Jonathan Kazarian, Founder & CEO of Accelevents.(00:00) - Intro (01:35) - In This Episode (03:41) - Are Point Solutions Actually a Distraction for Marketing Teams? (09:32) - Data Models Can Decide Platforms or Point Solutions (14:20) - Contact Based Pricing Skews Platform Versus Point Solution Costs (19:44) - Integration Depth Can Decide Platforms Versus Point Solutions (31:32) - Point Solutions Provide Faster and Smarter Support Than Platforms (37:28) - Documentation Shapes Point Solution Stacks (42:01) - How to Manage Shiny Object Syndrome in Marketing Ops (49:35) - A Founder's Admiration for Marketing Operators (54:42) - Why Continuous Growth Keeps Founders Balanced Summary: Jonathan framed point solutions as late-night distractions that add baggage, while Phil argued they solve real constraints platforms can’t touch, like global routing or multilingual campaigns. Darrell pulled the lens to data models, showing how shared schemas keep stacks clean but warehouse-native teams lean on composability for speed and control. Money made the tradeoffs clear when Phil cut HubSpot costs from $150k to $70k with Ghost, ConvertFlow, and Zapier, and Jonathan countered that the problem was platform fit, not price alone. Support stories added texture, with Phil praising startups that fix issues in Slack within hours and Jonathan noting how urgency and empathy thrive in smaller teams. The thread ran through every topic: platforms provide coherence and stability, point solutions unlock lift when constraints demand it, and the operator’s job is knowing which moment they are in.About JonathanJonathan Kazarian is the Founder & CEO of Accelevents, an all-in-one event management platform trusted by over 12,500 organizations worldwide. Since launching in 2015, he has led the company’s growth into a leader in powering in-person, virtual, and hybrid events with enterprise-grade features and 24/7 customer support. Before Accelevents, Jonathan worked in investment management and business development at Windham Labs and Windham Capital, where he supported strategy and client relationships across $1.5B in global assets. Based in Miami, he’s passionate about building technology that makes life easier for event organizers.Are Point Solutions Actually a Distraction for Marketing Teams?We all know the cycle of startups and enterprise. Point tools surge to fix sharp pains, a small group wins, platforms acquire them, founders spin out, and the next crop floods your feed. Jonathan thinks that those shiny tools pull teams off the work that actually moves numbers. He describes a scene every operator recognizes, the glow of a laptop at 3 a.m. and a to-do list that did not get shorter by sunrise.“I will see something, get excited about it, and then I am up until 3 a.m. playing with it. It distracts me from the things that actually matter.”Jonathan sets a firm bar for focus. Ship on a platform first, then layer selectively when a real constraint shows up. He treats events as a pillar beside CRM and marketing automation, so his platform must deliver value on day one without a four-tool puzzle. He stays explicit about the work that pays the bills:Tighten positioning so buyers understand you in one scroll.Communicate with customers in their language, not vendor speak.Make the core stack usable for sales, finance, and ops, not only for marketing.That way you can add niche tools later without freezing adoption while integrations sprawl.Phil takes the other corner and argues for composability with lived examples. He respects HubSpot and has shipped plenty on it, but real constraints demand specialists. Example: territory routing across pooled rep availability needs a product built for that job, which is why RevenueHero exists. Example: global email collaboration with dozens of languages and brand guardrails needs serious template control, which is why Knak clears roadblocks. Phil speaks to the operator who needs real lift:Match routing logic to the sales org rather than bending the org to the tool.Scale content production with permissions, templates, and translation workflows that teams actually follow.“I have built stacks that blended platform basics with pointed upgrades for specific constraints, and those upgrades paid off when growth demanded it.”Jonathan agrees on the destination, then anchors the sequence. Buy, go live, and prove value within weeks. Add point tools only when a named constraint blocks revenue or customer experience. Keep the stack boring where it should be boring. Run a simple playbook that your team can execute:Stand up your platform baseline and drive daily use from sales and marketing.Write down the first constraint that limits revenue or adoption.Choose one specialist that removes that constraint end to end.Set a 14-day integration target with one success metric tied to pipeline or retention.Move to the next constraint when the metric shows lift.Key takeaway: Point solutions can give shiny object syndrome to the undisciplined, but for the trained ops folks, they are upgrades on a platform backbone that are used to remove constraints that block revenue or adoption. Ship a platform baseline, then add specialists when the job requires things like territory routing, multilingual content control, or workflow depth that platforms rarely specialize in. Treat this as an operating rule, decide by trigger rather than trend, and tie every addition to a single metric that moves pipeline or retention.Why Data Models Decide Platforms or Point SolutionsDarrell sets the table with a consumer gut check, iOS versus Android, and he leans into reliability as the buying trigger. He points to the calm moment when AirPods pair and everything just works, which mirrors the promise of packaged platforms that share a core operating system. He still sees sharp edges, like deduplication, that call for extra tooling and he asks for a push off the fence."I love it when you buy a new Apple device and it just connects."Jonathan makes the platform case with a concrete pattern, two full platforms that cooperate. He points to Gmail on iOS as normal behavior rather than a bolt-on oddity, and he maps that to how customers pair Accelevents with HubSpot or Salesforce across the event-to-CRM vertical. He calls out a hard truth that veterans recognize, some big-suite acquisitions integrate worse than third parties. He zeroes in on the backbone that actually saves time, a consistent data model.A shared schema speeds onboarding and shortens the time from login to first useful outcome.Common structures reduce UTM and conversion mapping that steals cycles from the team.Clear seams across products limit the need for specialist tool owners."When you connect Gmail on iOS, you are bolting two platforms together."Phil answers with the warehouse-first pattern that many modern teams now run. A team with a data engineer, quality checks, and a lakehouse or warehouse prefers composable tools and custom models. That team treats the suite as a source, not the system of record, and wires APIs or bypasses based on need. He warns that a single vendor model can force the business into shapes that never fit.A staffed data function supports attribution and identity stitching in code you control.A warehouse-centered stack concentrates transforms, lineage, and governance where you already work.Custom metrics move faster when they live in versioned models, not tucked inside a vendor UI.API-first wiring keeps you from waiting on a roa...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Nadia Davis, VP Marketing at CaliberMind. (00:00) - Intro (01:12) - In This Episode (02:53) - Understanding the Attribution Periodic Table Framework (07:49) - Why Marketing Teams Face Higher ROI Pressure Than Other Departments (20:15) - Why Attribution Fails Without Data Stewardship (33:02) - Treating Multi-Touch Attribution as an Analytical Tool (39:05) - Exploring Chain Based Attribution Models for B2B Marketers (46:31) - Why Customizing Markov Chain Attribution Improves Accuracy (50:56) - How to Decide When Attribution Data Is Good Enough to Guide Strategy (01:00:00) - Why Marketing Operations Defines Multi Touch Attribution Success (01:04:50) - Why Time Management Drives Career Fulfillment Summary: Nadia learned early that attribution keeps you in business, proving to executives why the budget, the team, and the work matter. Seeing “attribution is dead” posts, she built her Attribution Periodic Table to show data modeling, measurement rules, and cross-team alignment as one connected system. In B2B, where budgets are treated like investment portfolios, she uses multi-touch attribution to connect brand and demand to revenue in CFO terms. For her, it’s an analytics tool, not a scoreboard, shaped by sequences like her govtech playbook where event conversations plus on-demand webinars moved deals forward. Chain-based and Markov models help her cut noise, drop vanity metrics, and ground decisions in logged, meaningful touches, all anchored in strong marketing operations that make multi-touch attribution something teams actually trust.About NadiaNadia Davis is the VP of Marketing at CaliberMind, where she leads demand generation, ABM, and marketing operations. She is known for building teams from scratch, overhauling martech stacks, and creating data-driven programs that sales teams can act on immediately. With over 15 years in B2B marketing, she has worked across SaaS, IT automation, healthcare tech, and data platforms, consistently delivering measurable growth by aligning marketing execution with revenue goals.Her career includes senior roles at PayIt, Stonebranch, LexisNexis Risk Solutions, Informa, and ND Medica Inc., as well as nearly a decade as an ABM and digital strategy consultant. She has led global campaigns, designed persona-driven targeting, run high-profile industry events, and built marketing programs that continue to deliver pipeline well beyond launch. A former Girls in Tech board member, Nadia combines hands-on technical expertise with the leadership skills to grow both teams and results.The Periodic Table of Marketing Attribution ElementsNadia has worked in revenue marketing long enough to know attribution is a survival tool. In every demand generation and performance role, she carried it like part of her standard kit. It was how she justified headcount, protected budgets, and kept the lights on in her department. Attribution helped her prove progress in a language executives understood.When she took over marketing at CaliberMind, she noticed the volume of “attribution is dead” posts climbing in her feed. The pattern felt familiar. Marketing tactics often get declared obsolete the moment they fail for someone, then replaced with whatever is trending. From her perspective, most of those posts came from SMB marketers moving on after a bad run. Meanwhile, enterprise teams were applying attribution with discipline, pairing it with strong data modeling, and getting measurable results. They simply were not talking about it publicly.That split in sentiment drove her to dig deeper. She wanted to measure the gap between what people were saying and what they were actually doing. The outcome was the State of 2025 Attribution report, anchored by her Revenue Marketing Periodic Table. Nadia built it to show attribution as part of an integrated framework, not a lone tactic. She broke it down into interconnected components:Data modeling that improves accuracy and removes noiseMeasurement frameworks that define terms and keep reporting consistentCross-functional alignment that ensures teams interpret the data the same way"So many things may seem completely disconnected, yet they all come together within a bigger ecosystem."The iceberg metaphor stuck with her. Most marketers focus on the visible metrics, but the real forces driving success are below the surface. Choosing the periodic table format brought this idea into focus. It showed each element as part of a larger system, each with its own role and complexity. Nadia even remembered struggling with chemistry in school, to the point where she once cheated on a test because she could not memorize the valency of certain elements. That frustration helped her appreciate the value of a clear visual framework when dealing with something complicated. The periodic table worked because it grouped related elements, revealed their relationships, and made the whole system easier to navigate.Key takeaway: Build attribution like a connected ecosystem. Pair it with precise data modeling, clear measurement frameworks, and strong cross-team alignment so every metric connects to a broader strategy. Map your system like a periodic table, where each element has a defined purpose and a place in the structure, that way you can spot gaps, diagnose problems faster, and prove impact without relying on surface-level numbers.Why Marketing Teams Face Higher ROI Pressure Than Other DepartmentsMarketing leaders manage one of the most lopsided jobs in business. One half of the work runs on instinct, creativity, and the psychology of memory. The other half is rooted in measurement, analytics, and financial accountability. Nadia points out that most marketers do not come from a statistics-heavy background, yet they are expected to operate as if they did. The pressure is not just to build campaigns that inspire but to show how those campaigns directly affect the bottom line.In B2B, the stakes climb even higher. Sales cycles can drag for months or even years, and the money behind your budget often comes from venture capital or private equity. Those investors see marketing spend as growth capital, not operational overhead. That means they expect a return. Nadia compares it to giving a retirement manager your savings. You would not leave them unchecked. You would want to see exactly how those dollars are working and why certain investments are made.Other departments do not face the same revenue-tied scrutiny. Finance manages operating budgets. Sales has smaller discretionary pools for travel and entertainment. HR spends what it takes to keep the team functioning. None of those groups is routinely asked to tie their activities to closed-won revenue. Marketing is, because its budget is treated as a bet on future growth, not a cost of maintaining the business.The challenge is translating marketing results into terms that matter to the C-suite. Nadia frames it clearly:“You are here because you got money to spend that we invested with you, and we want to have the responsible output from how this money is performing.”But that translation is rarely straightforward. Engagement, recall, and psychological impact are powerful, yet they do not speak the same language as pipeline targets and closed deals. In SaaS and tech, that disconnect is shrinking fast as investor pressure mounts. Marketing leaders who can quantify the financial impact of creative work are the ones who keep their budgets, and their seat at the table.Some people struggle with making decisions without near-perfect certainty, relying on data ...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Kevin White, Head of GTM Strategy at Common Room. (00:00) - Intro (01:00) - In This Episode (02:59) - How to Design a Super IC Role for Senior Marketers (09:11) - How to Get Comfortable With Public Visibility as an Introverted Leader (10:39) - sing Empathy and Product Demos to Build Authentic GTM Strategies (16:52) - How to Use Pain Points to Make Personalization Work (19:21) - How to Use Buyer Behavior Signals to Improve Outreach Timing (21:36) - Leveraging GitHub Signals to Drive High-Conversion Micro Campaigns (24:57) - Smarter Account Prioritization With Buyer Signals (29:02) - Why Messaging Drives GTM More Than Signals and Plays (31:16) - Why Overengineered Tech Stacks Fail GTM Teams (35:05) - Why AI SDR Agents Need Structured Coaching to Work (41:43) - Why The Last Mile Of AI Marketing Still Belongs To Humans (43:57) - AI Sharpens the Divide Between Experts and Amateurs (45:46) - Why Declaring Human-Written Outreach Gets Better Responses (48:00) - Futureproofing Operations Skills Through Challenge Driven Learning (51:46) - Why Data Warehouses Are Taking Over Customer Data Platforms (55:32) - Finding Career Balance Through Self Reflection Summary: Kevin rebuilt his career around the work that fuels him. After years leading teams at Segment, Retool and Common Room, he walked away from politics and board decks to create a “super IC” role focused on experiments, product evangelism, and hands‑on growth. He applies that same mindset to go‑to‑market: strip out the bloat, ditch templated outreach, and use real buyer behavior to build small, personal campaigns. He treats AI as an amplifier for skilled marketers, using it to speed research and sharpen ideas, while relying on human judgment to make the output work. Even visibility, once draining for him, became a muscle he trained through repetition. Kevin’s story is a guide for marketers who want less political fluff, more impact, and roles built around the work they actually love to do.About KevinKevin White is a seasoned go-to-market leader with over 20 years of experience driving growth for high-growth SaaS companies. He’s held senior roles at Gigya, SingleStore, HackerOne, and Twilio Segment, where he built demand generation engines and scaled marketing operations during critical growth stages.Most recently, Kevin led marketing at Retool and advanced through multiple leadership roles at Common Room, from Head of Demand Generation to Head of Marketing, and now Head of GTM Strategy. He has also advised innovative startups like Ashby, Gretel.ai, and Deepnote, helping them refine their go-to-market strategies and accelerate adoption.How to Design a Super IC Role for Senior MarketersClimbing the marketing ladder feels like progress until you realize the work at the top is entirely different. Kevin spent years running teams at Retool and Common Room. He managed a dozen people, dealt with SDR team politics, prepared board updates, and handled internal marketing. Those tasks ate up his time and dulled his energy for the work that made him great in the first place. “My day-to-day was full of things I didn’t enjoy. One-on-ones, internal marketing, SDR team drama, board updates. None of it felt like what I wanted to be doing,” he said.Kevin thrived in the early-stage chaos. He loved being the first marketer, building programs from scratch, experimenting with growth channels, and connecting directly with customers. Those environments let him create instead of coordinate. He could see the direct impact of his work and feel close to the product. As companies grew, that hands-on work disappeared. He became a coach, a manager, and a political operator. For someone who values doing over directing, that was a poor fit.He worked with Common Room’s CEO to design a role that put him back in his zone. Now, as Head of GTM Strategy, Kevin functions as a “super IC.” He runs high-leverage growth experiments, drives product evangelism, and collaborates with a few freelancers instead of managing a team. That way he can focus on the work that delivers impact while avoiding the politics and administrative load that drained him. It is a custom role built around his strengths, and it brought back his enthusiasm for the job.Kevin’s thinking extends beyond his role. He shared how Common Room rethought sales development. They hired an excellent manager who knows how to attract and retain elite talent. Then they paid those top performers well above the market rate. “Harry is one of our SDRs,” Kevin explained. “We pay him a good amount because he produces outsized results. That playbook works.” In Kevin’s view, companies should build alternative tracks for individual contributors and reward them based on their production, not their willingness to manage people.Key takeaway: Create roles that match strengths instead of forcing people up a management ladder. Build paths for senior individual contributors who can deliver massive value without leading teams. Pay top performers according to their impact, not their title. If you manage teams, audit which roles could benefit from this model and where high-performers need more autonomy. If you are an individual contributor, consider what a custom role would look like that keeps you close to the work you do best.Building Confidence With Public Visibility as an Introverted LeaderPublic visibility exhausts many introverted leaders. Kevin describes finishing a full day at a conference feeling drained, running only on caffeine to get through the next one. Sharing his voice on LinkedIn or recording videos once felt unbearable. Even now, he admits to taking multiple tries before posting anything. Despite that discomfort, he continues to do it because the repetition has transformed the work from a chore into a habit.“I was mortified at myself when I first started recording things,” Kevin said. “But I kept hearing people say how helpful it was, and that positive reinforcement made it easier.”Kevin builds on small steps instead of waiting for confidence to appear. He creates a cycle where he pushes himself into uncomfortable situations, collects positive feedback, and uses that reinforcement to do it again. Over time, the acts that once caused him anxiety, like posting thought pieces or speaking publicly, have become regular parts of his work.He views visibility as a skill that can be practiced. Instead of thinking in terms of strengths or weaknesses, he treats every new action as training. This perspective removes the pressure to “perform” and reframes the process as building a muscle. That makes posting online, speaking at events, and showing up in public spaces a set of learnable behaviors rather than personal traits.You can use his approach:Start with small, low-stakes actions like sharing short ideas on LinkedIn.Progress to more challenging mediums such as podcasts or short recorded demos.Save positive responses to use as reminders when your motivation dips.Treat every effort as practice, which builds resilience and lowers fear over time.Key takeaway: Confidence grows through repetition. Build it by starting with small visibility actions, collecting reinforcement, and gradually increasing the difficulty of your public presence. That way you can turn something that drains you into a manageable, even natural, part of your role.Using Empathy and Demos to Build Authentic GTM StrategiesKevin remembers the grind of stitching together spreadsheets, Zaps, and Salesforce automat...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Simon Lejeune, VP of Growth at Wealthsimple. (00:00) - Intro (01:16) - In This Episode (03:55) - How to Escape Local Maximum Traps in Growth Marketing (08:59) - Productive Laziness Mindsets (12:03) - The Psychological Trap of A/B Testing (15:55) - Balancing Clean Experiments with Bold Bets (18:43) - How to Use Incrementality to Measure Real Campaign Impact (22:32) - How to Approach Incrementality Without Large Data Sets (25:13) - The Best Use Cases for Incrementality Tests (29:58) - How to Handle ROI Conversations Without Slowing Down Growth (38:02) - Why Most A/B Testing Is a Waste of Time (47:17) - When Natural Language Becomes the Interface, Channel Expertise Stops Being a Moat (01:03:31) - How to Use Game Thinking to Stay Energized in Growth Roles Summary: Simon Lejeune learned early that chasing small wins keeps growth teams stuck, a lesson that landed hard when Hopper’s CEO dismissed his price‑point test as a “local maximum” and pushed him toward ideas bold enough to reshape the business. That experience drives how he leads at Wealthsimple, where he tells teams to stop polishing the same hill and start climbing new mountains by deleting work that doesn’t matter, cutting projects when the lift is negligible, and measuring true incrementality with one simple question: “What would have happened if we didn’t do this?” He believes AI is accelerating this shift, turning deep channel expertise into a commodity and making curiosity, speed, and ruthless prioritization the real competitive advantages. Growth, in his view, belongs to teams who can abandon the comfort of optimization and pursue experiments big enough to change the trajectory.About SimonSimon Lejeune is a seasoned growth leader with over a decade of experience scaling some of North America’s most recognized tech brands. Currently VP of Growth at Wealthsimple, he drives client and asset growth across products like Trade, Crypto, Cash, Invest, and Tax. Before that, Simon founded Mile End Growth, a boutique agency delivering strategy, creative, and media buying for startups, and led user acquisition at Hopper, where he managed multimillion‑dollar budgets and built one of the most sophisticated in‑house ad automation engines in travel tech. His career began at Busbud and Nomad Logic, where he directed growth marketing and developed new revenue‑generating spin‑offs.Local Maximum vs Global MaximumHow to Escape Local Maximum Traps in Growth MarketingA local maximum trap happens when teams keep optimizing small features that look like wins but cap long-term growth. Simon uses the metaphor of being blindfolded on uneven terrain. You walk in every direction until each step feels lower, then assume you have reached the peak. When you take off the blindfold, you see you are standing on a hill while a much larger mountain waits in the distance. Many growth teams spend months, sometimes years, stuck on those hills.Simon experienced this lesson in an uncomfortable way. During his final interview at Hopper, CEO Fred Lalonde asked him what he would change first to grow revenue in the app. Simon answered with what felt like a logical idea. He suggested testing different price points for the $5 tip option, maybe $4 or $6, to find the best revenue point.“He looked at me and said, ‘That’s literally a local maximum, and I do not want you doing that,’” Simon recalled.That feedback forced Simon to change his perspective. He proposed a more radical idea: building a separate app that would use Hopper’s flight data to surface ultra-cheap Ryanair-style deals under five euros. It sounded risky and unconventional, but Lalonde loved it. Simon left that meeting understanding that real growth often comes from bigger, more disruptive ideas that challenge the current model instead of refining it.Growth teams can apply this lesson by actively questioning whether their experiments drive material change or simply polish what already exists. Regularly evaluate whether you are optimizing features, pricing, or flows when the real opportunity may be entirely new product lines, bold pricing experiments, or acquisition channels that look nothing like what you use today.Key takeaway: Incremental optimizations create comfort but rarely drive exponential growth. Audit your current priorities and identify one experiment that pushes far beyond incremental gains. Focus on ideas that reimagine your product, acquisition model, or customer experience. That way you can escape local maximum traps and open paths to growth that small experiments will never reach.Productive Laziness MindsetsSimon challenges his team to delete more work than they refine. “The fastest way to do something is not to do it,” he said. He encourages what he calls “productive laziness,” which means questioning why a task exists before sinking hours into improving it. Many growth teams fill their calendars with recurring meetings and busywork that provide comfort but little actual impact. Simon wants his team to hunt down and remove the 80 percent of work that clogs up progress.“You could probably not do 80 percent of what you’re doing, and you need to take the time to find it.”He distinguishes between local and global maxima. Local maxima are small, incremental wins that stack up over time. They create efficiency, but they rarely transform outcomes on their own. Simon shared a story from Wealthsimple where his team used a simple AI-driven prompt to quickly generate FAQs for new promotions. It only improved one process by a few percentage points. Combined with other similar fixes, it meaningfully reduced the time from campaign idea to launch. These small process wins compound into real operational speed.Simon points out the trap many teams fall into when these tweaks become the entire focus. He calls out A/B testing as the classic example. The industry celebrates small lifts in conversion rates, yet the promised gains rarely translate into significant growth. “If you’ve had that many wins,” he said, “your conversion rate should be 300 percent by now.” Experienced operators know that most of these improvements exist only in reports, not in the top-line numbers.He pushes for a balance between incrementalism and bold redesigns. Teams need to ask hard questions: Does this process deserve to exist? Does this experiment meaningfully impact the business? Would rebuilding this system create more value than optimizing it? Those are global maximum questions, and they require a willingness to break away from the comfort of small wins to pursue something transformative.Key takeaway: Use incremental process improvements to accelerate execution, but regularly pause to audit whether the work itself creates meaningful business impact. Remove tasks, experiments, or processes that do not clearly connect to growth. That way you can free up the capacity to pursue global maximum opportunities that drive measurable, lasting results.The Psychological Trap of A/B TestingLocal maximum thinking happens when teams equate motion with progress. Simon describes this as the pattern of chasing a string of small A/B test wins while nothing meaningful shifts in the business. Every tweak produces a minor lift, enough to justify the next experiment, yet the bigger picture remains stagnant. The illusion of progress feels convincing in the moment, which is why so many teams stay stuck in it.He experienced this firsthand at Wealthsimple. The team wanted to answer a straightforward question: should they push new users toward onboarding ...

What’s up folks, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Alison Albeck Lindland, CMO at Movable Ink.(00:00) - Intro (01:14) - In This Episode (03:10) - 1. Movable Ink's Platform Evolution (04:19) - 2. Alison's 3 Stage Journey at Movable Ink (05:08) - 3. Using Customer Relationships to Future Proof a Marketing Career (09:50) - 4. Building AI Literacy in Marketing Teams (16:17) - 5. How to Spot AI Literacy in Marketing Hires (21:35) - 6. Fostering AI Experimentation Across Your Team (25:43) - 7. AI Point Solutions vs Platforms (30:37) - 8. Align CMOs and Boards on Long Term Marketing Goals (33:37) - 9. How to Measure and Maximize the ROI of Video Podcasts (40:23) - 10. Building a Customer Strategy Team That Drives Enterprise Growth (49:36) - 11. How To Build Lasting Influence With B2B Buyers (55:49) - 12. Creating Energy and Balance as a CMO Summary: Alison believes marketing careers thrive when you stay close to the people who buy from you, and at Movable Ink she has built that into the culture with a customer strategy team, advisory boards, and events that create real connections customers carry into new roles. She applies the same thinking to AI, starting with shared tools and boundaries, then layering in structured experimentation and custom apps that live inside daily workflows. Alison hires people who tinker on their own time, keeps experimentation alive with weekly check‑ins and show‑and‑shares, and cuts projects that do not deliver, like ending a podcast to focus on high‑impact testimonial and “hero” videos. Through it all, she builds influence by aligning teams on one scorecard, sharing loyalty stories that prove long‑term value, and helping buyers see her platform as part of their personal playbook for success.About AlisonAlison is the Chief Marketing Officer at Movable Ink, leading global marketing, brand, strategy, and communications for the AI-powered personalization platform used by the world’s top brands. In her 12+ years at Movable Ink, she’s had three distinct phases: rising through customer success, founding the company’s now-influential strategy team, and stepping into the CMO role nearly three years ago. That journey (across constant evolution and new challenges) has kept the work “never the same company for more than six months at a time,” and helped shape Movable Ink’s role as a leader in enterprise personalization.Customer Relationships Can Future Proof a Marketing CareerAlison argues that the best way to future proof a marketing career is by knowing your customers as actual people rather than abstract data points. Marketers who thrive over time make it their job to understand what customers want, how they think, and why they buy. "You have to know them personally and pretty intimately," she says. "You’ve got to be constantly advocating for their perspective around the table." That kind of understanding does not happen in a spreadsheet. It happens in conversations, often unplanned ones, that give you unfiltered context about their challenges and priorities.She has turned this belief into a repeatable practice at Movable Ink. Her team builds ongoing contact with customers through multiple channels, including:Quarterly fireside chats with CMOs who share their challenges and ideas.A hybrid customer advisory board that rotates in staff members to observe and participate.Strategic placement of marketers at in-person events where they can form real connections.These interactions do more than collect feedback. They create a loop where customer input shapes campaigns, product positioning, and content. Alison credits these relationships with Movable Ink’s staying power. Marketers who use their platform often bring it with them when they change roles or companies, expanding the brand’s reach through personal advocacy."We spend a lot of time now trying to bring our team members in close contact with our customers in more than just a servicing capacity," Alison explains. "They need to develop personal relationships that inform the work they are doing, whether it is content marketing, events, or ABM."Alison also leans on product marketing as a partner in capturing deeper customer knowledge. She highlights win-loss interviews as especially valuable. Unlike survey data, these conversations expose what is working and where gaps exist with enough specificity to guide real change. Her team uses these discussions to refine strategy and make decisions with authority. Marketers who adopt this mindset do more than execute tactics. They become trusted voices in shaping what their company brings to market.Key takeaway: Build constant, meaningful contact with your customers. Use advisory boards, interviews, and live events to hear their unfiltered perspectives. Treat these conversations as fuel for your campaigns and strategies. When you consistently advocate for customers with authority, you position yourself as someone whose work will stay relevant no matter how the tools, titles, or industry trends shift.AI Literacy in Marketing: How to Build AI Literacy in Marketing TeamsAI literacy in marketing takes shape when organizations stop treating AI like a playground and start building a framework for real, coordinated adoption. Alison Albeck Lindland pushes for a model where alignment and enablement come before experimentation. “You need to make sure you’re all singing from the same songbook,” she says. When teams skip that step, they end up with scattered projects, compliance headaches, and wasted time. A clear, shared framework turns AI from a set of personal experiments into an enterprise capability.This is why the updated Pyramid of AI Literacy begins with organizational alignment and standardized tooling at its base. These steps give teams a shared understanding of the company’s AI strategy, ethical guidelines, and compliance boundaries, along with enterprise-grade tools that build institutional knowledge instead of one-off fiefdoms. Alison’s point is direct: enterprise AI can only scale when everyone is using the same platforms and working from the same rulebook.“OpenAI is great, but we’re using a tool that lets us build institutional muscle and share learnings across teams.”The middle of the pyramid focuses on practical proficiency, experimentation, and model literacy. Teams develop real competency with structured prompts and multi-model workflows. They also learn how large language models work and how AI connects to data, workflows, and machine learning systems. Experience does not come from a training course. It comes from giving teams space to test ideas, share lessons learned, and build the muscle memory to use AI effectively.At the top sits strategic leadership. This is where marketing leaders guide the organization with clear purpose, challenge hype, and embed AI into the company’s growth strategy. At Movable Ink, this looks like dedicated business analysts building custom AI apps that plug into daily work, from a brand voice checker to a natural language search bot for surfacing industry-specific content. These tools live inside workflows, making AI part of the operating rhythm instead of a side project.Key takeaway: Use the pyramid as your blueprint for building AI literacy. Start by aligning the organization on strategy, ethics, and enterprise tools. Then train teams to get real value from AI through structured prompts, model literacy, and cross-functional experimentation. Finally, put strong leadership at the top to guide adoption with purpose. That way you can move AI from scattered experiments to a unified, scalable capability that drives ...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with István Mészáros, Founder and CEO of Mitzu.io. (00:00) - Intro (01:00) - In This Episode (03:39) - How Warehouse Native Analytics Works (06:54) - BI vs Analytics vs Measurement vs Attribution (09:26) - Merging Web and Product Analytics With a Zero-Copy Architecture (14:53) - Feature or New Category? What Warehouse Native Really Means For Marketers (23:23) - How Decoupling Storage and Compute Lowers Analytics Costs (29:11) - How Composable CDPs Work with Lean Data Teams (34:32) - How Seat-Based Pricing Works in Warehouse Native Analytics (40:00) - What a Data Warehouse Does That Your CRM Never Will (42:12) - How AI-Assisted SQL Generation Works Without Breaking Trust (50:55) - How Warehouse Native Analytics Works (52:58) - How To Navigate Founder Burnout While Raising Kids Summary: István built a warehouse-native analytics layer that lets teams define metrics once, query them directly, and skip the messy syncs across five tools trying to guess what “active user” means. Instead of fighting over numbers, teams walk through SQL together, clean up logic, and move faster. One customer dropped their bill from $500K to $1K just by switching to seat-based pricing. István shares how AI helps, but only if you still understand the data underneath. This conversation shows what happens when marketing, product, and data finally work off the same source without second-guessing every report.About IstvánIstvan is the Founder and CEO of Mitzu.io, a warehouse-native product analytics platform built for modern data stacks like Snowflake, Databricks, BigQuery, Redshift, Athena, Postgres, Clickhouse, and Trino. Before launching Mitzu.io in 2023, he spent over a decade leading high-scale data engineering efforts at companies like Shapr3D and Skyscanner. At Shapr3D, he defined the long-term data strategy and built self-serve analytics infrastructure. At Skyscanner, he progressed from building backend systems serving millions of users to leading data engineering and analytics teams. Earlier in his career, he developed real-time diagnostic and control systems for the Large Hadron Collider at CERN. How Warehouse Native Analytics WorksMarketing tools like Mixpanel, Amplitude, and GA4 create their own versions of your customer. Each one captures data slightly differently, labels users in its own format, and forces you to guess how their identity stitching works. The warehouse-native model removes this overhead by putting all customer data into a central location before anything else happens. That means your data warehouse becomes the only source of truth, not just another system to reconcile.István explained the difference in blunt terms. “The data you’re using is owned by you,” he said. That includes behavioral events, transactional logs, support tickets, email interactions, and product usage data. When everything lands in one place first (BigQuery, Redshift, Snowflake, Databricks) you get to define the logic. No more retrofitting vendor tools to work with messy exports or waiting for their UI to catch up with your question.In smaller teams, especially B2C startups, the benefits hit early. Without a shared warehouse, you get five tools trying to guess what an active user means. With a warehouse-native setup, you define that metric once and reuse it everywhere. You can query it in SQL, schedule your campaigns off it, and sync it with downstream tools like Customer.io or Braze. That way you can work faster, align across functions, and stop arguing about whose numbers are right.“You do most of the work in the warehouse for all the things you want to do in marketing,” István said. “That includes measurement, attribution, segmentation, everything starts from that central point.”Centralizing your stack also changes how your data team operates. Instead of reacting to reporting issues or chasing down inconsistent UTM strings, they build shared models the whole org can trust. Marketing ops gets reliable metrics, product teams get context, and leadership gets reports that actually match what customers are doing. Nobody wins when your attribution logic lives in a fragile dashboard that breaks every other week.Key takeaway: Warehouse native analytics gives you full control over customer data by letting you define core metrics once in your warehouse and reuse them everywhere else. That way you can avoid double-counting, reduce tool drift, and build a stable foundation that aligns marketing, product, and data teams. Store first, define once, activate wherever you want.BI vs Analytics vs Measurement vs AttributionBusiness intelligence means static dashboards. Not flexible. Not exploratory. Just there, like laminated truth. István described it as the place where the data expert’s word becomes law. The dashboards are already built, the metrics are already defined, and any changes require a help ticket. BI exists to make sure everyone sees the same numbers, even if nobody knows exactly how they were calculated.Analytics lives one level below that, and it behaves very differently. It is messy, curious, and closer to the raw data. Analytics splits into two tracks: the version done by data professionals who build robust models with SQL and dbt, and the version done by non-technical teams poking around in self-serve tools. Those non-technical users rarely want to define warehouse logic from scratch. They want fast answers from big datasets without calling in reinforcements.“We used to call what we did self-service BI, because the word analytics didn’t resonate,” István said. “But everyone was using it for product and marketing analytics. So we changed the copy.”The difference between analytics and BI has nothing to do with what the tool looks like. It has everything to do with who gets to use it and how. If only one person controls the dashboard, that is BI. If your whole team can dig into campaign performance, break down cohorts, and explore feature usage trends without waiting for data engineering, that is analytics. Attribution, ML, and forecasting live on top of both layers. They depend on the raw data underneath, and they are only useful if the definitions below them hold up.Language often lags behind how tools are actually used. István saw this firsthand. The product stayed the same, but the positioning changed. People used Mitzu for product analytics and marketing performance, so that became the headline. Not because it was a trend, but because that is what users were doing anyway.Key takeaway: BI centralizes truth through fixed dashboards, while analytics creates motion by giving more people access to raw data. When teams treat BI as the source of agreement and analytics as the source of discovery, they stop fighting over metrics and start asking better questions. That way you can maintain trusted dashboards for executive reporting and still empower teams to explore data without filing tickets or waiting days for answers.Merging Web and Product Analytics With a Zero-Copy ArchitectureMost teams trying to replace GA4 end up layering more tools onto the same mess. They drop in Amplitude or Mixpanel for product analytics, keep something else for marketing attribution, and sync everything into a CDP that now needs babysitting. Eventually, they start building one-off pipelines just to feed the same events into six different systems, all chasing slightly different answers to the same question.István sees this fragmentation as a byproduct of treating product and marketing analytics as separate functions. In categorie...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Tiankai Feng, Data & AI Strategy Director at Thoughtworks and Author of Humanizing Data Strategy. (00:00) - Intro (01:06) - In This Episode (03:18) - How Data and Marketing Create a Symbiotic Relationship (06:00) - If Data Governance Is the Jedi Council, Marketing Ops Is the Rebel Alliance (08:26) - How to Organize Data Teams and Improve Marketing Collaboration (14:49) - Handling Healthy Data Conflicts Without Crushing Creativity (25:23) - How to Use Shadowing to Fix Broken Marketing Alignment (36:44) - The Comeback of Data Quality (43:20) - How Natural Language BI Tools Change Data Analyst Work (46:50) - How Composable Data Management Works in Marketing (53:30) - How to Use Authentic Communication to Build Influence in Marketing Ops (56:40) - Happiness Summary: Data governance feels like the Jedi Council, steady with its rules, while marketing ops moves like the Rebel Alliance, quick to adapt when perfect data never arrives. Tiankai believes progress comes from blending discipline with curiosity, bringing data in early as a partner, not a critic. He’s seen teams thrive when they pick trade-offs upfront, document how everyone fits together, and take ownership of clean, reliable inputs instead of trusting AI to fix sloppy work later. Even the best tools still need humans to design the logic behind the scenes. When teams care about context and build real relationships, data becomes the backbone that keeps marketing strong under pressure.About TiankaiTiankai Feng is Director of Data & AI Strategy at Thoughtworks, where he leads global service offerings spanning data governance, AI strategy, and modernization initiatives. He is the author of Humanizing Data Strategy – Leading Data with the Head and the Heart, and serves on the Education Advisory Board at DataQG. Previously, Tiankai spent over six years at Adidas as Senior Director of Product Data Governance, shaping data practices across global teams. He is also Head of Marketing at DAMA Germany, helping grow the country’s leading data management community. Earlier in his career, Tiankai worked as a senior consultant with TD Reply, advising major brands on digital strategy and performance. Recognized as a top data product thought leader, he is passionate about bridging the gap between technical excellence and human-centered data cultures.How Data and Marketing Create a Symbiotic RelationshipIt is interesting to consider how many data professionals started their careers by obsessing over why advertising can make people feel something. Tiankai shared that he studied campaigns as a kid and felt driven to decode the hidden mechanics behind each message. He called it the science behind the feeling. He wanted to understand why a phrase could trigger a decision and what evidence proved it actually worked.When he chose his degree, he blended marketing with database systems because he believed data could ground creative work in reality. He wanted a way to measure the effectiveness of ideas instead of relying on gut reactions. That decision led him into marketing analytics, where he learned to balance instinct with structured evidence. He described this period as the moment he first saw every click, conversion, and impression as a trail of signals pointing to what people valued most.Tiankai shared that many companies separate marketing from data in ways that weaken both. He believes that every creative idea grows stronger when it gets tested by proof. He said, “You have a lot of thoughts and gut feelings, but what if you could actually rely on proof to make better decisions?” He still asks this question whenever he evaluates a strategy or decides how to communicate the value of a data project.He also applies marketing principles inside his own teams. He treats internal projects like product launches and focuses on storytelling as much as reporting. He learned that evidence alone rarely convinces stakeholders. People respond when data feels relevant and easy to act on. He credits this mindset to his early work in brand campaigns, which taught him that information becomes meaningful when it connects to someone’s goals and emotions.“By heart, I’m still a marketer,” he said. “Even now, I’m applying what I learned in marketing to convince stakeholders to work with me.”This blend of skills helps teams create strategies that people believe in and understand. When marketing and data share the same goals, campaigns feel both credible and inspiring.Key takeaway: Blending marketing analytics with creative thinking lets you challenge assumptions and build strategies that people trust. When you share data work, present it like a product launch. Frame the message in relatable stories, make the numbers clear, and show how the information supports better decisions. That way you can help teams act with confidence and prove the impact of their ideas.If Data Governance Is the Jedi Council, Marketing Ops Is the Rebel AllianceIt is interesting to consider how marketing teams keep borrowing Star Wars metaphors to make sense of the work. Tiankai described clean, governed data as the Jedi Council, the calm authority that brings order and discipline. He shared that marketing operations always felt more like the Rebel Alliance, a team of underdogs improvising bold plans and building strategies out of whatever they could find in the hangar.In those early years, nobody had a clear guidebook. Teams cobbled together workflows, tested ideas with half-finished data, and celebrated any dashboard that did not explode during a quarterly review. Tiankai remembered feeling like every small win was a victory against the Empire of bad processes. This scrappy environment fueled creativity, but it also came with plenty of late nights and occasional panic.Today, marketing ops feels more settled. > “There’s more experience and more best practices to be shared,” he said. Teams now have detailed frameworks, polished documentation, and tools that mostly work the way they promise. That way you can spend less time guessing and more time refining campaigns that drive results. You can treat the Jedi Council as a helpful ally rather than an unreachable ideal.Tiankai still believes good operators keep a bit of rebel spirit. Even the best-governed data will sometimes contradict reality on the ground. When those moments happen, it helps to trust your instincts and build something that makes sense for your business, not just the standard playbook. The Jedi Council can provide discipline, but someone still has to step into the hangar and fly the mission.Marketing operations has grown up, but it never lost the urge to experiment. The work feels rewarding when you blend clear frameworks with your own curiosity and a willingness to bend the rules when the stakes demand it.Key takeaway: Data governance acts like a steady Jedi Council, giving your marketing operations clarity, trust, and a strong backbone. To get the most from it, combine those proven systems with the resourcefulness of a rebel team. Stay ready to challenge assumptions, tweak the plan, and follow your judgment when data alone does not tell the full story. That way you can build workflows that are disciplined enough to scale and flexible enough to handle reality without falling apart.How to Organize Data Teams and Improve Marketing CollaborationIt is interesting to consider how data ownership used to feel like an afterthought in early SaaS companies. Tiankai remembered scraping together metrics by hand, jumping between marketing dashboards and...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Guta Tolmasquim, CEO at Purple Metrics. Summary: Brand measurement often feels like a polite performance nobody fully believes, and Guta learned this firsthand moving from performance marketing spreadsheets to startup rebrands that showed clear sales bumps everyone could feel. She kept seeing blind spots, like a bank’s soccer sponsorship that quietly cut churn or old LinkedIn pages driving conversions no one tracked. When she built Purple Metrics, she refused to pretend algorithms could explain everything, designing tools that encourage gradual shifts over sudden upheaval. She watched CMOs massage attribution settings to fit their instincts and knew real progress demanded something braver: smaller experiments, simpler language, and the courage to say, “We tried, we learned,” even when results stung. Her TikTok videos in Portuguese became proof that brand work can pay off fast if you track it honestly. If you’re tired of clean stories masking messy reality, her perspective feels like a breath of fresh air.How Brand Measurement Connects to RevenueBrand measurement drifted away from commercial reality when marketers decided to chase every click and impression. Guta traced this pattern back to the 1970s when companies decided to separate branding and sales into distinct functions. Before that split, teams treated branding as a sales lever that directly supported revenue. The division created two camps that rarely spoke the same language. One camp focused on lavish creative campaigns, and the other became fixated on dashboards filled with shallow metrics.Guta started her career in performance marketing because she valued seeing every dollar accounted for. She described those years as productive but ultimately unsatisfying. She moved to big enterprises and spent nearly a decade trying to make brand lift reports feel credible in boardrooms. She eventually turned her focus to startups and noticed a clearer path. Startups often have budgets that force prioritization. They pick one initiative, implement it, and measure its direct impact on revenue without dozens of overlapping campaigns.“When you only have money to do one thing, it becomes obvious what’s working,” Guta explained. “You almost get this A/B test without even planning for it.”That clarity shaped her view of brand measurement. She learned that disciplined isolation of variables makes results easier to trust. When a startup rebranded, sales moved in a way that confirmed the decision. The data was hard to ignore. Guta saw purchase volumes increase after brand updates, and she knew these signals were stronger than any generic awareness metric. The companies she worked with never relied on sentiment scores alone because they tracked actual transactions.Guta later built her own product to modernize brand research with a sharper focus on financial outcomes. She designed the system to map brand activities to revenue signals so marketing could prove its impact without resorting to vague reports. The product found traction because it respected the mindset of finance leaders and offered direct evidence that branding drives growth. Guta believed this connection was essential for any team that wants to secure resources and build trust across departments.Key takeaway: Brand measurement works best when you focus on one clear change at a time and track its impact on revenue without distractions. You can earn credibility with your finance partners by showing how brand decisions move purchase behavior in measurable ways. When you build discipline into measurement and align it with actual sales, you transform branding from a creative exercise into a proven growth lever.Examples Where Brand Investments Shifted Real Business OutcomesBrand investments often get treated as trophies that decorate a budget presentation. Guta shared a story that showed how sponsorships can drive specific business results when you track them properly. A Brazilian bank decided to sponsor a soccer championship. On the surface, the campaign looked like a glossy PR move. When Guta’s team measured what they called “mindset metrics,” they found that soccer fans reported higher loyalty toward the bank. The data set off a chain reaction that forced everyone involved to reconsider how they viewed sponsorships.The bank pulled internal reports and discovered a clear pattern. Fans who followed the soccer sponsorship churned at much lower rates than other customers. Guta said the marketing team realized they were sitting on a revenue engine they never fully understood. They began to see sponsorship as a serious retention tool rather than a vanity spend. That shift did not happen automatically. Someone had to ask whether the big brand push was connected to any measurable outcomes, and then look carefully for the link between sentiment and behavior.Guta described another client who rebranded their product suite under one name. They planned to delete the old LinkedIn pages that showed the previous brand identities. The team assumed nobody cared about those pages because LinkedIn conversions looked low in standard reports. Guta’s data proved otherwise. Those profiles accounted for more than 10% of conversions. Even though LinkedIn often buries links and limits reach, buyers visited those profiles before searching on Google and converting later.“Organic is a myth. It’s just conversions you forgot to measure.”Guta said this with the calm certainty of someone who has studied enough attribution to see where the gaps live. She explained that once you recognize how long it takes for a sponsorship impression to spark a branded search or a sale, you change how you plan. You stop guessing about campaign timing. You start working backward from the conversion window. If you expect a surge in July, you begin your campaigns in May so your budget has time to mature into real conversions instead of wasted impressions.Key takeaway: Map the path between your brand investments and your conversions with concrete data instead of assumptions. Use mindset metrics to identify early loyalty signals, then confirm whether those signals correlate with retention and branded search. When you see exactly how long each channel takes to drive revenue, you can plan campaigns months in advance and protect your budget with evidence that proves your strategy is working.The Tangible Outcomes of Brand: Purchase Intent and Memory StructuresBranding often carries a reputation as a soft layer of sentiment layered on top of performance campaigns, but Guta shares that it operates through a more rigorous mechanism than most teams realize. Branding creates memory structures that store signals in a person’s mind. When customers enter the market ready to buy, they retrieve those signals almost instantly. Their brains pull up familiar visuals, a sense of trust, or a specific promise that speeds up the choice. Guta has seen this happen repeatedly when people move straight from awareness to purchase without even visiting the company’s website again.Guta describes the reality that many marketing teams get stuck in a single-track mindset. They keep trying to hammer home immediate behaviors without any effort to create longer-term recall. She shares that brands can think about their work in two tracks running side by side:One track plants attributes in memory so customers can recall the brand later.The other track activates specific behaviors like trying, subscribing, or purchasing.When companies only focus on activation, they may end up with viral content that does not translate into any buying behavior. Guta has watched teams measure short-term engagement while ignoring whether the campaign ...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Chris O'Neill, CEO at GrowthLoop. Summary: Chris explains how leading marketing teams are deploying swarms of AI agents to automate campaign workflows with speed and precision. By assigning agents to tasks like segmentation, testing, and feedback collection, marketers build fast-moving loops that adapt in real time. Chris also breaks down how reinforcement learning helps avoid a sea of sameness by letting campaigns evolve mid-flight based on live data. To support velocity without sacrificing control, top teams are running red team drills, assigning clear data ownership, and introducing internal AI regulation roles that manage risk while unlocking scale.The 2025 AI and Marketing Performance IndexThe 2025 AI and Marketing Performance Index that GrowthLoop put together is excellent, we’re honored to have gotten our hands on it before it went live and getting to unpack that with Chris in this episode. The report answers timely questions a lot of teams are are wrestling with:Are top performers ahead of the AI curve or just focused on solid foundations? Are top performers focused on speed and quantity or does quality still win in a sea of sameness?We’ve chatted with plenty of folks that are betting on patience and polish. But GrowthLoop’s data shows the opposite.🤖🏃 Top performerming marketing teams are already scaling with AI and their focus on speed is driving growth. For some, this might be a wake-up call. But for others, it’s confirmation and might seem obvious: Teams that are using AI and working fast are growing faster. We all get the why. But the big mystery is the how. So let’s dig into the how teams can implement AI to grow faster and how to prepare marketers and marketing ops folks for the next 5 years.Reframing AI in Marketing Around Outcomes and VelocityMarketing teams love speed. AI vendors promise it. Founders crave it. The problem is most people chasing speed have no idea where they’re going. Chris prefers velocity. Velocity means you are moving fast in a defined direction. That requires clarity. Not hype. Not generic goals. Clarity.AI belongs in your toolkit once you know exactly which metric needs to move. Chris puts it plainly: revenue, lifetime value, or cost. Pick one. Write it down. Then explain how AI helps you get there. Not in vague marketing terms. In business terms. If you cannot describe the outcome in a sentence your CFO would nod at, you are wasting everyone’s time.“Being able to articulate with precision how AI is going to drive and improve your profit and loss statement, that’s where it starts.”Too many teams start with tools. They get caught up in features and launch pilots with no destination. Chris sees this constantly. The projects that actually work begin with a clearly defined business problem. Only after that do they start choosing systems that will accelerate execution. AI helps when it fits into a system that already knows where it’s going.Velocity also forces prioritization. If your AI project can't show directional impact on a core business metric, it does not deserve resources. That way you can protect your time, your budget, and your credibility. Chris doesn’t get excited by experiments. He gets excited when someone shows him how AI will raise net revenue by half a percent this quarter. That’s the work.Key takeaway: Start with a business problem. Choose one outcome: revenue, lifetime value, or cost reduction. Define how AI contributes to that outcome in concrete terms. Use speed only when you know the direction. That way you can build systems that deliver velocity, not chaos.How to Use Agentic AI for Marketing Campaign ExecutionMany marketing teams still rely on AI to summarize campaign data, but stop there. They generate charts, read the output, and then return to the same manual workflows they have used for years. Chris sees this pattern everywhere. Teams label themselves as “data-driven,” while depending on outdated methods like list pulls, rigid segmentation, and one-off blasts that treat everyone in the same group the same way.Chris calls this “waterfall marketing.” A marketer decides on a goal like improving retention or increasing lifetime value. Then they wait in line for the data team to write SQL, generate lists, and pass it back. That process often takes days or weeks, and the result is usually too narrow or too broad. The entire workflow is slow, disconnected, and full of friction.Teams that are ahead have moved to agent-based execution. These systems no longer depend on one-off requests or isolated tools. AI agents access a shared semantic layer, interpret past outcomes, and suggest actions that align with business goals. These actions include:Identifying the best-fit audience based on past conversionsSuggesting campaign timing and sequencingLaunching experiments automaticallyFeeding all results back into a single data source“You don’t wait in line for a data pull anymore,” Chris said. “The agent already knows what audience will likely move the needle, based on what’s worked in the past.”Marketing teams using this model no longer debate which list to use or when to launch. They build continuous loops where agents suggest, execute, and learn at every stage. These agents now handle tasks better than most humans, especially when volume and speed matter. Marketers remain in the loop for creative decisions and audience understanding, but the manual overhead is no longer the cost of doing business.Key takeaway: AI agents become effective when they handle specific steps across your marketing workflow. By assigning agents to segmentation, timing, testing, and feedback collection, you can move faster and operate with more precision. That way you can replace the long list of disconnected tasks with a tight loop of execution that adapts in real time.How Reinforcement Learning Optimizes GenAI ContentReinforcement learning gives marketers a way to optimize AI-generated content without falling into repetition. Chris has seen firsthand how most outbound sequences feel eerily similar. Templates dominate, personalization tags glitch, and every message sounds like it was assembled by the same spreadsheet. The problem does not stem from the idea of automation but from its poor execution. Teams copy tactics without refining their inputs or measuring what actually works.Chris points to reinforcement learning as the fix for this stagnation. He contrasts it with more rigid machine learning models, which make predictions but often lack adaptability. Reinforcement learning works differently. It learns by doing. It tracks real-world feedback and updates decision-making logic in motion. That gives marketers an edge in adjusting timing, sequencing, and delivery based on signals from actual behavior.“It would be silly to ignore all the data from previous experiments,” Chris said. “Reinforcement learning gives us a way to build on it without starting over each time.”Chris believes this creates space for creative work rather than replacing it. Agents should own the tedious tasks. That includes segmenting lists, building reports, and managing repetitive logic. Human teams can then focus on storytelling, taste, and trend awareness. Chris referenced a conversation with a senior designer at Gap who shared a similar view. This designer believes AI lets him expand his creative range by clearing room for deep work. Chris sees the same opportunity in marketing. The system works best when agents handle the mechanical layers, and humans bring energy, weirdness, and originality.Many leaders are still caught in operational quicksand. Their teams wrestle with bl...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Rajeev Nair, Co-Founder and Chief Product Officer at Lifesight. Summary: Rajeev believes measurement only works when it’s unified or multi-modal, a stack that blends multi-touch attribution, incrementality, media mix modeling and causal AI, each used for the decision it fits. At Lifesight, that means using causal machine learning to surface hidden experiments in messy historical data and designing geo tests that reveal what actually drives lift. Attribution alone can’t tell you what changed outcomes. Rajeev’s team moved past dashboards and built a system that focuses on clarity, not correlation. Attribution handles daily tweaks. MMM guides long-term planning. Experiments validate what’s real. Each tool plays a role, but none can stand alone.About RajeevRajeev Nair is the Co-Founder and Chief Product Officer at Lifesight, where he’s spent the last several years shaping how modern marketers measure impact. Before that, he led product at Moda and served as a business intelligence analyst at Ebizu. He began his career as a technical business analyst at Infosys, building a foundation in data and systems thinking that still drives his work today.Digital Astrology and the Attribution IllusionLifesight started by building traditional attribution tools focused on tracking user journeys and distributing credit across touchpoints using ID graphs. The goal was to help brands understand which interactions influenced conversions. But Rajeev and his team quickly realized that attribution alone didn’t answer the core question their customers kept asking: what actually drove incremental revenue? In response, they shifted gears around 2019, moving toward incrementality testing. They began with exposed versus synthetic control groups, then evolved to more scalable, identity-agnostic methods like geo testing. This pivot marked a fundamental change in their product philosophy; from mapping behavior to measuring causal impact.Rajeeve shares his thoughts on multi-touch attribution and the evolution of the space.The Dilution of The Term AttributionAttribution has been hijacked by tracking. Rajeev points straight at the rot. What used to be a way to understand which actions actually led to a customer buying something has become little more than a digital breadcrumb trail. Marketers keep calling it attribution, but what they're really doing is surveillance. They're collecting events and assigning credit based on who touched what ad and when, even if none of it actually changed the buyer’s mind.The biggest failure here is causality. Rajeev is clear about this. Attribution is supposed to tell you what caused an outcome. Not what appeared next to it. Not what someone happened to click on right before. Actual cause and effect. Instead, we get dashboards full of correlation dressed up as insight. You might see a spike in conversions and assume it was the retargeting campaign, but you’re building castles on sand if you can’t prove causality.Then comes the complexity problem. Today’s marketing stack is a jungle. You have:Paid ads across five different platformsOrganic contentDiscountsSeasonal shiftsPricing changesProduct updatesAll these things impact results, but most attribution models treat them like isolated variables. They don’t ask, “What moved the needle more than it would’ve moved otherwise?” They ask, “Who touched the user last before they bought?” That’s not measurement. That’s astrology for marketers.“Attribution, in today’s marketing context, has just come to mean tracking. The word itself has been diluted.”Multi-touch attribution doesn’t save you either. It distributes credit differently, but it’s still built on flawed data and weak assumptions. If you’re measuring everything and understanding nothing, you’re just spending more money to stay confused. Real marketing optimization requires incrementality analysis, not just a prettier funnel chart.To Measure What Caused a Sale, You Need ExperimentsEven with perfect data, attribution keeps lying. Rajeev learned that the hard way. His team chased the attribution grail by building identity graphs so detailed they could probably tell you what toothpaste a customer used. They stitched together first-party and third-party data, mapped the full user journey, and connected every touchpoint from TikTok to in-store checkout. Then they ran the numbers. What came back wasn’t insight. It was statistical noise.Every marketing team that has sunk months into journey mapping has hit the same wall. At the bottom of the funnel, conversion paths light up like a Christmas tree. Retargeting ads, last-clicked emails, discount codes, they all scream high correlation with purchase. The logic feels airtight until you realize it's just recency bias with a data export. These touchpoints show up because they’re close to conversion. That doesn’t mean they caused it.“Causality is essentially correlation plus bias. Can we somehow manage the bias so that we could interpret the observed correlation as causality?”What Rajeev means is that while correlation on its own proves nothing, it’s still the starting point. You need correlation to even guess at a causal link, but then you have to strip out all the bias (timing, selection, confounding variables) before you can claim anything actually drove the outcome. It’s a messy process, and attribution data alone doesn’t get you there.That’s the puzzle. You can’t infer real marketing effectiveness just from journey data. You can’t say the billboard drove walk-ins if everyone had to walk past it to enter the store. You can’t say coupons created conversions if they were handed out after someone had already walked in. Attribution doesn’t answer those questions. It only tells you what happened. It doesn’t explain why it happened.To measure causality, you need experiments. Rajeev gives it straight: run controlled tests. Put a billboard at one store, skip it at another. Offer discounts to some, hold them back from others. Then compare outcomes. Only when you hold a variable constant and see lift can you say something worked. Attribution on its own is just a correlation engine. And correlation, without real-world intervention, tells you absolutely nothing useful.Key takeaway: Attribution data without controlled testing isn’t useful. If you want to know what drives results, design experiments. Stop treating customer journeys like gospel. Use journey data as a starting point, then isolate variables and measure actual lift. That way you can make real decisions instead of retroactively rationalizing whatever got funded last quarter.The Limitations of Incrementality Tests and How Quasi-Experiments Can HelpMost teams think they’re being scientific when they run an incrementality test. But the truth is, these tests are fragile. Geo tests are high-effort and easy to mess up. Quasi experiments are directional at best and misleading at worst. If you’re not careful with design, timing, and interpretation, you’ll end up with results that look rigorous… but aren’t.Why Most Teams Get Geo Testing Completely WrongGeo testing gets romanticized as this high-integrity measurement method, but most teams treat it like a side quest. They run it once, complain it was expensive, then go back to attribution dashboards because they're easier to screenshot in a slide deck. The truth is, geo testing takes guts. It means pulling spend from regions that bring in real revenue. That’s not a simulation. It’s a real-world test with real-world consequences.Rajeev breaks it down with...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Hope Barrett, Sr Director of Product Management, Martech at SoundCloud. Summary: In twelve weeks, Hope led a full messaging stack rebuild with just three people. They cut 200 legacy campaigns down to what mattered, partnered with MoEngage for execution, and shifted messaging into the product org. Now, SoundCloud ships notifications like features that are part of a core product. Governance is clean, data runs through BigQuery, and audiences sync everywhere. The migration was wild and fast, but incredibly meticulous and the ultimate gain was making the whole system make sense again.About HopeHope Barrett has spent the last two decades building the machinery that makes modern marketing work, long before most companies even had names for the roles she was defining. As Senior Director of Product Management for Martech at SoundCloud, she leads the overhaul of their martech stack, making every tool in the chain pull its weight toward growth. She directs both the performance marketing and marketing analytics teams, ensuring the data is not just collected but used with precision to attract fans and artists at the right cost.Before SoundCloud, she spent over six years at CNN scaling their newsletter program into a real asset, not just a vanity list. She laid the groundwork for data governance, built SEO strategies that actually stuck, and made sure editorial, ad sales, and business development all had the same map of who their readers were. Her career also includes time in consulting, digital analytics agencies, and leadership roles at companies like AT&T, Patch, and McMaster-Carr. Across all of them, she has combined technical fluency with sharp business instincts.SoundCloud’s Big Messaging Platform Migration and What it Taught Them About Future-Proofing Martech: Diagnosing Broken Martech Starts With Asking Better QuestionsHope stepped into SoundCloud expecting to answer a tactical question: what could replace Nielsen’s multi-touch attribution? That was the assignment. Attribution was being deprecated. Pick something better. What she found was a tangle of infrastructure issues that had very little to do with attribution and everything to do with operational blind spots. Messages were going out, campaigns were triggering, but no one could say how many or to whom with any confidence. The data looked complete until you tried to use it for decision-making.The core problem wasn’t a single tool. It was a decade of deferred maintenance. The customer engagement platform dated back to 2016. It had been implemented when the vendor’s roadmap was still theoretical, so SoundCloud had built their own infrastructure around it. That included external frequency caps, one-off delivery logic, and measurement layers that sat outside the platform. The platform said it sent X messages, but downstream systems had other opinions. Hope quickly saw the pattern: legacy tooling buried under compensatory systems no one wanted to admit existed.That initial audit kicked off a full system teardown. The MMP wasn’t viable anymore. Google Analytics was still on Universal. Even the question that brought her in—how to replace MTA—had no great answer. Every path forward required removing layers of guesswork that had been quietly accepted as normal. It was less about choosing new tools and more about restoring the ability to ask direct questions and get direct answers. How many users received a message? What triggered it? Did we actually measure impact or just guess at attribution?“I came in to answer one question and left rebuilding half the stack. You start with attribution and suddenly you're gut-checking everything else.”Hope had done this before. At CNN, she had run full vendor evaluations, owned platform migrations, and managed post-rollout adoption. She knew what bloated systems looked like. She also knew they never fix themselves. Every extra workaround comes with a quiet cost: more dependencies, more tribal knowledge, more reasons to avoid change. Once the platforms can’t deliver reliable numbers and every fix depends on asking someone who left last year, you’re past the point of iteration. You’re in rebuild territory.Key takeaway: If your team can't trace where a number comes from, the stack isn’t helping you operate. It’s hiding decisions behind legacy duct tape. Fixing that starts with hard questions. Ask what systems your data passes through, which rules live outside the platform, and how long it’s been since anyone challenged the architecture. Clarity doesn’t come from adding more tools. It comes from stripping complexity until the answers make sense again.Why Legacy Messaging Platforms Quietly Break Your Customer ExperienceHope realized SoundCloud’s customer messaging setup was broken the moment she couldn’t get a straight answer to a basic question: how many messages had been sent? The platform could produce a number, but it was useless. Too many things happened after delivery. Support infrastructure kicked in. Frequency caps filtered volume. Campaign logic lived outside the actual platform. There was no single system of record. The tools looked functional, but trust had already eroded.The core problem came from decisions made years earlier. The customer engagement platform had been implemented in 2016 when the vendor was still early in its lifecycle. At the time, core features didn’t exist, so SoundCloud built their own solutions around it. Frequency management, segmentation logic, even delivery throttling ran outside the tool. These weren’t integrations. They were crutches. And they turned what should have been a centralized system into a loosely coupled set of scripts, API calls, and legacy logic that no one wanted to touch.Hope had seen this pattern before. At CNN, she dealt with similar issues and recognized the symptoms immediately. Legacy platforms tend to create debt you don’t notice until you start asking precise questions. Things work, but only because internal teams built workarounds that silently age out of relevance. Tech stacks like that don’t fail loudly. They fail in fragments. One missing field, one skipped frequency cap, one number that doesn’t reconcile across tools. By the time it’s clear something’s wrong, the actual root cause is buried under six years of operational shortcuts.“The platform gave me a number, but it wasn’t the real number. Everything important was happening outside of it.”Hope’s philosophy around messaging is shaped by how she defines partnership. She prefers vendors who act like partners, not ticket responders. Partners should care about long-term success, not just contract renewals. But partnership also means using the tool as intended. When the platform is bent around missing features, the relationship becomes strained. Every workaround is a vote of no confidence in the roadmap. Eventually, you're not just managing campaigns. You’re managing risk.Key takeaway: If your customer messaging platform can't report true delivery volume because critical logic happens outside of it, you're already in rebuild territory. Don’t wait for a total failure. Audit where key rules live. Centralize what matters. And only invest in tools where out-of-the-box features can support your real-world use cases. That way you can grow without outsourcing half your stack to workaround scripts and tribal knowledge.Why Custom Martech Builds Quietly Punish You LaterThe worst part of SoundCloud’s legacy stack wasn’t the duct-taped infrastructure. It was how long it took to admit it had become a problem. The platform had been in place since 2016, back when the vendor was still figuring out core features. Instead of switching, SoundCloud stayed locked in ...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Joshua Kanter, Co-Founder & Chief Data & Analytics Officer at ConvertML. Summary: Joshua spent the earliest parts of his career buried in SQL, only to watch companies hand out dashboards and call it strategy. Teams skim charts to confirm hunches while ignoring what the data actually says. He believes access means nothing without translation. You need people who can turn vague business prompts into clear, interpretable answers. He built ConvertML to guide those decisions. GenAI only raises the stakes. Without structure and fluency, it becomes easier to sound confident and still be completely wrong. That risk scales fast.About JoshuaJoshua started in data analytics at First Manhattan Consulting, then co-founded two ventures; Mindswift, focused on marketing experimentation, and Novantas, a consulting firm for financial services. From there, he rose to Associate Principal at McKinsey, where he helped companies make real decisions with messy data and imperfect information. Then he crossed into operating roles, leading marketing at Caesars Entertainment as SVP of Marketing, where budgets were wild.After Caesars, he became a 3-time CMO (basically 4-time); at PetSmart, International Cruise & Excursions, and Encora. Each time walking into a different industry with new problems. He now co-leads ConvertML, where he’s focused on making machine learning and measurement actually usable for the people in the trenches.Data Democratization Is Breaking More Than It’s FixingData democratization has become one of those phrases people repeat without thinking. It shows up in mission statements and vendor decks, pitched like some moral imperative. Give everyone access to data, the story goes, and decision-making will become magically enlightened. But Joshua has seen what actually happens when this ideal collides with reality: chaos, confusion, and a lot of people confidently misreading the same spreadsheet in five different ways.Joshua isn’t your typical out of the weeds CMO, he’s lived in the guts of enterprise data for 25 years. His first job out of college was grinding SQL for 16 hours a day. He’s been inside consulting rooms, behind marketing dashboards, and at the head of data science teams. Over and over, he’s seen the same pattern: leaders throwing raw dashboards at people who have no training in how to interpret them, then wondering why decisions keep going sideways.There are several unspoken assumptions built into the data democratization pitch. People assume the data is clean. That it’s structured in a meaningful way. That it answers the right questions. Most importantly, they assume people can actually read it. Not just glance at a chart and nod along, but dig into the nuance, understand the context, question what’s missing, and resist the temptation to cherry-pick for whatever narrative they already had in mind.“People bring their own hypotheses and they’re just looking for the data to confirm what they already believe.”Joshua has watched this play out inside Fortune 500 boardrooms and small startup teams alike. People interpret the same report with totally different takeaways. Sometimes they miss what’s obvious. Other times they read too far into something that doesn’t mean anything. They rarely stop to ask what data is not present or whether it even makes sense to draw a conclusion at all.Giving everyone access to data is great and all… but only works when people have the skills to use it responsibly. That means more than teaching Excel shortcut keys. It requires real investment in data literacy, mentorship from technical leads, and repeated, structured practice. Otherwise, what you end up with is a very expensive system that quietly fuels bias and bad decisions and just work for the sake of work.Key takeaway: Widespread access to dashboards does not make your company data-informed. People need to know how to interpret what they see, challenge their assumptions, and recognize when data is incomplete or misleading. Before scaling access, invest in skills. Make data literacy a requirement. That way you can prevent costly misreads and costly data-driven decision-making.How Confirmation Bias Corrupts Marketing Decisions at ScaleExecutives love to say they are “data-driven.” What they usually mean is “data-selective.” Joshua has seen the same story on repeat. Someone asks for a report. They already have an answer in mind. They skim the results, cherry-pick what supports their view, and ignore everything else. It is not just sloppy thinking. It’s organizational malpractice that scales fast when left unchecked.To prevent that, someone needs to sit between business questions and raw data. Joshua calls for trained data translators; people who know how to turn vague executive prompts into structured queries. These translators understand the data architecture, the metrics that matter, and the business logic beneath the request. They return with a real answer, not just a number in bold font, but a sentence that says: “Here’s what we found. Here’s what the data does not cover. Here’s the confidence range. Here’s the nuance.”“You want someone who can say, ‘The data supports this conclusion, but only under these conditions.’ That’s what makes the difference.”Joshua has dealt with both extremes. There are instinct-heavy leaders who just want validation. There are also data purists who cannot move until the spreadsheet glows with statistical significance. At a $7 billion retailer, he once saw a merchandising exec demand 9,000 survey responses; just so he could slice and dice every subgroup imaginable later. That was not rigor. It was decision paralysis wearing a lab coat.The answer is to build maturity around data use. That means investing in operators who can navigate ambiguity, reason through incomplete information, and explain caveats clearly. Data has power, but only when paired with skill. You need fluency, not dashboards. You need interpretation and above all, you need to train teams to ask better questions before they start fishing for answers.Key takeaway: Every marketing org needs a data translation layer; real humans who understand the business problem, the structure of the data, and how to bridge the two with integrity. That way you can protect against confirmation bias, bring discipline to decision-making, and stop wasting time on reports that just echo someone's hunch. Build that capability into your operations. It is the only way to scale sound judgment.You’re Thinking About Statistical Significance Completely WrongToo many marketers treat statistical significance like a ritual. Hit the 95 percent confidence threshold and it's seen as divine truth. Miss it, and the whole test gets tossed in the trash. Joshua has zero patience for that kind of checkbox math. It turns experimentation into a binary trap, where nuance gets crushed under false certainty and anything under 0.05 is labeled a failure. That mindset is lazy, expensive, and wildly limiting.95% statistical significance does not mean your result matters. It just means your result is probably not random, assuming your test is designed well and your assumptions hold up. Even then, you can be wrong 1 out of every 20 times, which no one seems to talk about in those Monday growth meetings. Joshua’s real concern is how this thinking cuts off all the good stuff that lives in the grey zone; tests that come in at 90 percent confidence, show a consistent directional lift, and still get ignored because someone only trusts green checkmarks.“People believe that if it doesn’t hit statistical significance, the result isn’t meaningful. That’s false. And danger...