In the Meanwhile

Whelp, here’s the episode where we finally ask: democracy or dystopia, which one needs fewer bunkers? Marcus and Nora open on a week so wild it made “Make America Boring Again” sound visionary, then dive in with Douglas Rushkoff (creator of Team Human, and author of Survival of the Richest). We unpack why tech billionaires keep fantasizing about escape hatches, Hawaii compounds, New Zealand bunkers, and DIY Martian hydration, while the rest of us are left with the bill (and the algorithms). Rushkoff maps the feedback loop between accelerationist politics, growth-at-all-costs tech, and a media machine allergic to context, then offers an antidote: cap the “more,” rebuild local, practice mutual aid, rediscover awe, and value time for its own sake. It’s funny, salty, and surprisingly hopeful. Mentioned in the episode: AGI | Degrowth movement | The Social Dilemma | Black Wall Street | Robert Redford: the Company You Keep | Rev. Dr. Howard John Wesley: how you die does not redeem the life you lived | Journalist firings following death of Charlie Kirk | Michaela’s story on SoundSide | Gabriel Teodros | Before trilogy Douglas's work: Team Human podcast | Generation Like | The Persuaders | Merchants of Cool | Survival of the Richest: Escape Fantasies of the Tech Billionaires Support the pod: Donate to Hinton Publishing to support In the Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus’s Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise  Nora and Marcus’s work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

This week on In The Meanwhile, Nora and Marcus speak with the one and only Tricia Rose: cultural critic, Brown professor, and professional breaker of lazy narratives. We get into “metaracism” (aka the system isn’t broken, it’s working as intended), why stories move policy more than charts, and her interactive project Way Outta No Way that makes systemic racism visible without putting you to sleep. Rose points to real leverage points, like ending property-tax funding for public schools, and reminds us that collective care (and yes, jokes) are strategy, not fluff. If you’ve ever wondered how to steal the pen back from power, this is your starter kit. Note - 9/15/25: the original version of this episode contained an error in Professor Rose's title. Professor Tricia Rose is the Chancellor’s Professor of Africana Studies and Director of the Systemic Racism and Resilience Project at the John Nicholas Brown Center for Advanced Study at Brown University. Mentioned in the episode: Tricia Rose | Tricia Rose and Larry Elder on Al Jazeera (Internet Archive) | Way Outta No Way | The Nap Ministry | Metaracism by Tricia Rose | Wild Faith by Talia Levin | History lives here at NAAM Follow Prof. Rose: https://www.instagram.com/proftriciarose | https://bsky.app/profile/proftriciarose.bsky.social  Support the pod: Donate to Hinton Publishing to support In the Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus’s Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise  Nora and Marcus’s work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

This week, Nora and Marcus sit down with Renée Hopkins, CEO of the Alliance for Gun Responsibility, to talk about a grim reality we’re supposed to pretend is normal: gun violence that’s killing kids every day while politicians offer therapeutic platitudes and zero legislation.  But here's the twist—Hopkins and her team have actually made progress on this issue. While the rest of the country cycles through outrage, helplessness, fear, and legislative paralysis, Washington state has been quietly passing comprehensive gun safety laws. Background checks, extreme risk protection orders, safe storage requirements—turns out you can regulate tools of mass death without the constitution bursting into flames.  It's a conversation about how we misunderstand both where gun violence comes from and who it most impacts, and the policy wins that are saving the biggest killer of pregnant women and children across the US. Bring tissues. Bring rage. And maybe bring some faith that steady progress beats thoughts and prayers every time. Mentioned in the episode: Alliance for Gun Responsibility | Call RFK: 202-690-7000 | Shakespearean Insult Generator | Awe by Dacher Kelter Support the pod: Donate to Hinton Publishing to support In the Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus’s Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise  Nora and Marcus’s work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

This week, Nora and Marcus take listeners on a wild ride through America’s collapsing systems, plus the unlikely origin story of this very podcast: part DIY zine, part serendipity, part awkward poetry class with an ex, and a Town Hall conversation that revealed GoFundMe has effectively become our national healthcare system… just with nicer branding. Along the way, they dig into Nora’s groundbreaking work on crowdfunding, showing how desperation got repackaged as an “internet take action button” while the real structural injustices stayed put. It’s a conversation about inequity, resilience, and why mutual aid might be the only antidote to living in the “meanwhile.” Sure, it’s a little enraging, BUT you’ll laugh through the fury (and yes, that counts as your cardio for the day). Mentioned in the episode: Marcus’s first article, featuring Nora | Nora & Marcus’s Town Hall Talk on YouTube | Heather Cox Richardson at Town Hall | Crowded Out | White women wasting ICE’s time | Our episode with Dean Spade Support the pod: Donate to Hinton Publishing to support In the Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus’s Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise  Nora and Marcus’s work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

This week on In The Meanwhile, Nora and Marcus chat it up with Dr. Daudi Abe about America’s hottest commodity: ignorance, which is now streaming in a classroom near you! From states rebranding slavery as “involuntary relocation with benefits” to classrooms streaming PragerU like it’s the Disney Channel, we dive into how the powerful weaponize misinformation to keep us confused, divided, and buying Hulk Hogan bobbleheads instead of books. It’s hilarious, terrifying, and just the kind of conversation you need if you’re trying to make sense of why critical thinking is being treated like contraband. Oh, and Dr. Abe has a special message for anyone crying that higher education leads to indoctrination… Mentioned in the episode: Deadhorse Canyon | Man or Bear | Marcus’s article on Homer in the South Seattle Emerald | Book: A Festival of Violence Support the pod: Donate to Hinton Publishing to support In the Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus’s Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise  Nora and Marcus’s work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

The broligarchy isn’t just cringe, it’s deeply dangerous. This week on In The Meanwhile, Nora and Marcus sit down with Dan McQuillan, author of Resisting AI, to unpack how artificial intelligence isn't changing the game—it's rigging it in favor of authoritarianism. McQuillan breaks down how Silicon Valley has found its perfect dance partner in far-right movements, and offers a crucial blueprint for resistance. By rejecting the lie that AI dominance is useful or inevitable, McQuillan maps out how we can refuse this technological takeover and build something better in its place. Enter "decomputing": the radical idea that communities can organize alternative infrastructures based on care, mutual aid, and actual human judgment instead of algorithmic solutionism.  Part organizing manual, part explainer on Elon’s tasteless Nazi fan fiction, this episode is necessary listening for anyone who's ever wondered if we're sleepwalking into a dystopian tech future. Spoiler alert: we are. But we don't have to be. Mentioned in the episode: Resisting AI by Dan McQuillan | Decomputing as Resistance by Dan McQuillan | Resisting the Techno-Fascist Takeover by Dan McQuillan | Travis Kalanick on doing “vibe physics” | A Former DOGE Employee Gives His Account of Working for the Operation, NPR. | More Everything Forever, by Adam Becker | Empire of AI, by Karen Hao | The Interview: The Grody-Patinkin Family is a Mess. People Love It. | Pathetic Spiritual Practice with Rev. Denise M. Cawley Find Dan McQuillan on social media:  https://x.com/danmcquillan | https://bsky.app/profile/danmcquillan.bsky.social | @danmcquillan@kolektiva.social (mastodon) |  https://www.linkedin.com/in/danmcquillan/ | https://www.instagram.com/resistingai/ Support the pod: Donate to Hinton Publishing to support In the Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus’s Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare Readying to Rise  Nora and Marcus’ work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

This week on In The Meanwhile, Nora and Marcus catch up with Seattle’s most unexpected threat to billionaire brunch politics, Katie Wilson. She’s a longtime organizer, transit rider, and Americano-splitter who went from dragging mayors in public comment to becoming the mayoral frontrunner herself. Her game plan? No hedge fund sugar daddies, no donor call lists, just a Google form, a ground game, and the radical idea that government should actually work for people. This one is for everyone who’s screamed “Do something!” at their screen, only to realize the person who should do something… might be themselves. It’s equal parts political strategy, Buddhist wisdom, and just enough hope to make every fauxgressive clutch their Chamber of Commerce tote bag in horror. Mentioned in the episode: Katie Wilson for Mayor | Voting info in King County |  Support the pod: Donate to Hinton Publishing to support In the Meanwhile Follow us on social & the web: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Nora and Marcus’ work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect.

This week on In The Meanwhile, Nora and Marcus speak with The Bitchuation Room's Francesca Fiorentini — comedian, journalist, and professional thorn in the side of fascists everywhere. She breaks down why comedy is doing the job cable news is too scared to touch, why billionaires are basically rich toddlers with Wi-Fi, and how the left can stop doomscrolling and start building real power. From Palestine to potty‑training wins, Francesca shows us that sometimes the best way to fight back is to laugh in the face of the people trying to wreck your life… and then organize to take their power away. Mentioned in the episode: The Bitchuation Room | TICKETS: The Bitchuation Room live in Seattle 8/2/25 | AJ+ | Francesca on Abolish ICE | Bill Burr | If Books Could Kill - “A Bari Special Episode” | Lead pipe replacement in Flint, MI | Injectable preventative HIV medicine goes global | The Stranger Follow us on Social: Instagram | BlueSky Nora and Marcus’ work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect.  

In this scorching episode of In The Meanwhile, Nora and Marcus sweat it out—literally and metaphorically—as they sit down with disability rights advocate and policy powerhouse Matthew Cortland. With razor-sharp clarity and raw honesty, Matthew unpacks how Trump’s so-called “big, beautiful” budget is actually a legislative wrecking ball aimed at Medicaid, Medicare, and the people who need them most. Matthew shares their own survival story of chronic illness, insurance denials, and systemic gaslighting—and how that fight led them to become one of the country’s leading voices for healthcare justice. Part moral call to arms, part policy masterclass, this episode digs into why messaging matters, how personal stories can save lives, and what it means to organize like survival depends on it–because for millions, it absolutely does. Mentioned in the episode: Matthew Cortland | Data for Progress | Ady Barkan’s organization, Be A Hero | Little Lobbyists | AAPD | The House of God by Samuel Shem | Frank Luntz | Don’t Think of an Elephant!, by George Lakoff | Haroun and the Sea of Stories, by Salman Rushdie Follow us on Social: Instagram | BlueSky Nora and Marcus’ work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

This week, Nora and Marcus sit down with Gabriel Teodros, MC, poet, educator, organizer, and community time traveler, to talk about how we carry grief, make art, and stay human when the world’s on fire (sometimes literally). Gabriel takes us from losing his home in a blaze to creating From the Ashes of Our Homes, his most personal album yet. And along the way, he unpacks what it means to do “love work” in a world built to erase us. We get into the big stuff: why silence in the face of genocide isn’t just complicity, it’s consent. Why joy isn’t a luxury, it’s resistance. And why solidarity isn’t a social media post, but something you live, build, and dance to. This isn’t just a convo about music. It’s about using every beat, bar, and breath to fight back. Come for the rhythm, stay for the revolution. Mentioned in the episode: All About Love, bell hooks | Lovework | Khalil Gibran, The Prophet | Denizen Kane | Gabriel Teodros - From the Ashes of Our Homes | Gabriel Teodros - An Open Letter to My Cousins in Israel | Palestine Will LIve Forever Festival | Andrea Gibson | The Undocumented Socialist Alien who Keeps Saving America by Marcus Harrison Green in The Stranger | Tikun Olam Follow us on Social: Instagram | BlueSky Nora and Marcus’ work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

What if everything you’ve been told about Palestine was only half the story, and the half that kept power comfy? This week on In the Meanwhile, Marcus and Nora talk with Palestinian American scholar Karam Dana, whose new book doesn’t just unpack the crisis in Gaza—it shreds the whole suitcase of sanitized narratives we’ve been fed for decades. With the precision of a professor and the fire of someone who’s lived it, Dana explains how Palestine sits at the heart of our most urgent questions: What does real solidarity look like? Who gets to speak freely? And why are Jewish voices standing with Palestinians so often erased? It’s heavy, yes but also clarifying, humanizing, and (somehow) hopeful. If you’ve ever found yourself wondering why talking about Palestine feels like touching a political third rail, this episode gives you the history, context, and moral compass to do it anyway. Mentioned in the episode: To Stand with Palestine by Karam Dana | Except for Palestine by Marc Lamont Hill and Richard Plitnick | The Message, by Ta Nehisi Coates | Tolerance is a Wasteland by Saree Makdisi | Good Muslim/Bad Muslim by Mahmood Mamdani Follow us on Social: Instagram | BlueSky Nora and Marcus’ work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

Synopsis: This week on In the Meanwhile, Nora and Marcus sit down with journalist Schuyler Mitchell to unpack how we went from “defund the police” to cities doubling down on militarized crackdowns: complete with riot gear, surveillance drones, and bipartisan gaslighting. Drawing from Mitchell’s Truthout exposé on the LAPD’s long history of unchecked brutality, the conversation explores how both Trump and so-called “resistance” leaders like Gavin Newsom helped build today’s authoritarian toolkit. They break down the blurred lines between ICE, local police, and Homeland Security, the failure of reforms, and why police budgets keep growing while communities are left to fend for themselves. It’s a sharp and sobering conversation about what public safety really means, what abolition demands, and why hope lives in mutual aid, memory, and refusing to settle for brunch as a political strategy. Mentioned in the episode: Yes, We mean Literally Abolish the Police Political Sidequest Schuyler Mitchell’s article for Truth Out Mariame Kaba and Andrea Richie - No More Police How Los Angeles Police Broke Protocols and Injured Protesters  Follow us on Social: Instagram | BlueSky Nora and Marcus’ work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

Dean Spade joins Nora and Marcus for a conversation about how our relationships show up in our activism, politics, and everyday life. Mentioned in the episode: Love in a F*cked Up World by Dean Spade | Love in a Fucked Up World Podcast | Mutual Aid by Dean Spade | Facing Collapse Together study group | Movement Memos: Bizarre and Dangerous Utopian Ideology Has Quietly Taken Hold of Tech World | Pipsqueak | Left Bank Books | Exarcheia | Inside Exarcheia on The Guardian (2019) | Demise of a neighborhood on Politico (2023) | New Jersey ICE escape | Lime Bike Barricade in Seattle Follow us on Social: Instagram | BlueSky Nora and Marcus’ work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

In this episode, Nora and Marcus wade into the bizarre right-wing war on empathy—where Elon Musk, JD Vance, and others claim that caring about other people is a threat to civilization itself. But beyond the absurdity, they trace how empathy has been weaponized, misunderstood, and hollowed out—from Clinton-era politics to today’s culture wars. Together, they ask: How should we show up and care in a time of polycrisis? s empathy even enough? Or do we need something deeper—like solidarity, discomfort, and the hard, daily work of being human with one another? Mentioned in the episode: Celebrity Imagine cringe video | Braver Angels | Pope Francis letter to Vance | Crowded Out | Toxic Empathy | Bishop Marian Budde | Guardian - Julia Carrie Wong | Tech Won’t Save Us Follow us on Social: Instagram | BlueSky Nora and Marcus’ work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Sound Effect by freesound_community from Pixabay Sound Effect by Universfield from Pixabay

Mentioned in the episode: So the No Kings March Happened. What Next? (Marcus Harrison Green, South Seattle Emerald) Erica Chenoweth Follow us on Social: https://www.instagram.com/inthemeanwhilepodcast | https://bsky.app/profile/inthemeanwhile.bsky.social  *Nora and Marcus’ work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron

In this episode Nora and Marcus dive headfirst into the dystopian text thread we’re all living in: ICE raids in broad daylight, masked agents snatching people off the streets, media complicity, and the federal government going full “authoritarian starter pack.” But rather than stew in our fear, today’s guests offer pragmatic lessons about what we face and what can be done. Professor Angelina Godoy, a human rights scholar, breaks down how U.S. immigration enforcement is veering into the territory of international crimes, and Principal Jamie Cook describes how her small-town school community mobilized to free detained students and take a stand against ICE. It’s a moving, unflinching conversation about civic bravery, the power of everyday people, and what it truly means to show up when the stakes are high and the fear is real. Listen in and get inspired.  Mentioned in the episode: The Guardian reported in April, “Despite the common refrain that the Trump 2.0 protests have been tepid, research from Harvard’s Crowd Counting Consortium showed that there were twice as many street protests between 22 January of this year and March than in the same period in Trump’s first term.” The Courage Project’s civic bravery awards | Read more about Sackets Harbor and its response to ICE. | More on the Seattle family of 6 detained in horrific conditions for 24 days. | La Resistencia’s work at the Northwest Detention Center Connections for those who want to get involved:  Community Defense Project | Organized Communities Against Deportation | Community patrolling by Union del Barrio in LA Follow us on Social: Instagram | BlueSky Nora and Marcus’ work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron.  

Five years after a global pandemic, historic protests, and social rupture, where are we now—and what have we forgotten? In this episode, Nora and Marcus Harrison Green dive into the lingering impacts of 2020, from fractured families to the backlash against empathy itself. With humor, honesty, and a touch of John Mayer fandom, they explore how we hold memory, process grief, and dare to vision something better in a nation that feels like a group project where half the class didn’t show up. This is an episode about collective endurance, radical imagination, and finding joy, however strange or small, while still stuck in the “meanwhile.” If you’ve ever wondered why things feel both over and still happening then this one’s for you. Mentioned in the episode: Pew Poll on impacts of pandemic | Affective Polarization | Reply All - “The Least You Could Do” | Nudibranchs | 1M Experiments | Nancy Pelosi in her Kente Cloth  Further reading / Listening:  Marcus’ piece on the Othello BLM march in 2020 |  Nora’s research on mutual aid networks | Arundhati Roy @ Financial Times | You’re Wrong About podcast on losing relatives to FoxNews and QAnon Follow us on Social: Instagram | BlueSky Nora and Marcus’ work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron.

Welcome to the premiere of In the Meanwhile—a podcast for anyone trying to survive the slow-motion apocalypse without losing their soul (or their sense of humor). Professor Nora Kenworthy and journalist Marcus Harrison Green kick things off with a candid, funny, and heartfelt conversation about what it means to live through this messy in-between era—where the old world is collapsing, the new one isn’t here yet, and the group chat is full of existential dread. Born out of pandemic grief, political exhaustion, and the need to build something meaningful, this first episode explores what it means to live through a time of collapse without becoming a monster, how to hold onto your humanity when the headlines hit harder than your therapist’s out-of-office reply, and why Bob Ross might be the spiritual leader we don’t deserve but need right now. This is part secular sermon, part group therapy, part dinner table rant with your smartest friends—the ones who still believe in hope, justice, and eight ounces of joy per episode. No hot takes, no empty platitudes—just real talk about how we hold onto our humanity, build community, and figure out what the hell we’re doing in the meanwhile. New episodes drop every Friday. Bring snacks. Bring questions. We’re muddling through this together. Mentioned in the episode: Readying to Rise: Essays by Marcus Harrison Green | Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | The South Seattle Emerald | Hinton Publishing | Nora and Marcus at Town Hall Seattle | Martin Demant Frederiksen writing about pandemic mean/time | Antonio Gramsci on the time of monsters | Ad Astra | Bob Ross on  YouTube Follow us on Social: Instagram | BlueSky Nora and Marcus’ work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.  

The old world is collapsing. The new one hasn’t arrived. And in between? There’s grief, confusion, burnout—and the possibility for something better.  Welcome to In The Meanwhile, a weekly podcast hosted by public health scholar Nora Kenworthy and journalist Marcus Harrison Green.  No hot takes. No empty platitudes. No easy hope. Just real talk about how we hold onto our humanity, build something better—and maybe even laugh along the way. Bring snacks. Bring questions. Bring critical thinking skills—they’ve been in a coma since 1997. We’re figuring this out together.