King of the Middle

00:10 Villains Michael loves / Heroes he dislikes 02:16 Why this topic?  03:24 A well-written villain needs a good backstory / Villains often express hidden truths about ourselves 06:03 Goodness can be a bore / We’re in a battle with good and evil constantly  / Villains can reveal our own wrong thinking 08:23 Why do so many people dislike Superman? / Parallel to our false view of heaven as a “boring place” 11:03 Well-written villains allow artists to reflect real-life dynamics 14:03 Both heroes and villains must be well-written / Chris offers a comparison between cliched disasters and badly written villains 17:34 Who are some of Michael’s favorite bad guys? / Why are we still talking about Darth Vader in the 21st century? / Michael recalls a hurtful character in Dickens’s ‘Great Expectations’ / The newest Joker film / How Darth Vader reflects our own Christian walk / Why we are drawn to redemption stories / Brief mention of ‘Tale of Two Cities’ 23:13 At the turn of the century, darker flawed heroes became more in vogue / Is the 21st century shift in our collective moral values responsible for what we see in modern stories? 25:47 The perils of modern anti-heroes / Amazon's ‘The Boys’ / Christians can use evil characters to depict absolute evil / Rise of Skywalker is a good example of modern use of pure good and pure evil characters 29:50 Ravi Zacharias had a good illustration for absolute evil / Characters, whether good or bad, must face hard struggles 32:03 Warning for writers when they move into morally murky waters / The 21st century has ushered in a more mainstream acceptance of anti-heroes and flawed heroes / Why Christians have to work hard to write honest bad guys / We may lead folks astray if we’re not careful 36:03 Michael is a big fan of ‘No Country for Old Men’ / Christians need to take a hopeful spin on the modern anti-hero tale / The evil committed by Joseph’s brothers (when they sold him into slavery) is a warning to us: we the audience aren’t always intended to be aligned with the hero of the story 42:07 Chris weighs in on the filmed version of ‘No Country For Old Men’ / The end of the film is misunderstood by many believers who dislike the story / Similar conclusion in a film called ‘Jindabyne’ / Why Chris likes films where the villain gets away in the end 47:10 When we acknowledge right and wrong in our storytelling, we can further expose absolute truths 47:46 Michael mentions the film ‘A Simple Plan’ where the main character who turns bad realizes the change / When bad guys realize their evil—even if they don’t turn from darkness—it can be useful to reveal honest sinfulness / Stories that depict true evil can help us prepare for the temptations 52:11 Paul warned us that we are always in a battle against our flesh / Characters both good and bad must wrestle with their flesh and soul 55:02 Chris addendum: Superman and traditional good characters have a place in modern storytelling / We must show the moral dilemmas that purely good characters face / Superheroes do have weaknesses: the normal humans they love who cannot defend themselves 59:46 The modern film anti-hero is rooted in the 20th century, not merely the turn of the 21st century -------- Video essay: The de-mythification of heroes (WARNING: May contain R-rated language): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT75YHqlD9k Facebook https://www.facebook.com/kingofthemiddle/ Chris’s Website http://www.cmobmo.com Michael’s Website and Amazon page https://michaeljoelgreen.wordpress.com/

This review is more than a film critique. We dig deep into the pathos of the film and its implications for a Christian audience. -- Intro: Why are we reviewing ‘Bill & Ted Face the Music?’ -- Background for the trilogy / The setup for “Face the Music” / Why the beginning of film resonates with Chris -- Bill & Ted’s co-dependency and its danger to their marriages -- The dangers of placing one’s work and vocational relationships before your family / Why Chris doesn’t like finding profundity in stories when it isn’t really there -- The film turns the modern convention for father-daughter relationships upside-down -- We analyze the major overriding plot point of the film: Bill & Ted keep looking for shortcuts to accomplish their quest -- Michael talks about why an artist cannot shortcut through pain and hardship -- Pressure to succeed can greatly harm creativity -- Michael contrasts his favorite film, 'Big Fish'  with ‘Face the Music’: differing outcomes when a character knows his future -- Chris discusses why our inability to see the future is a gift; Jesus in bodily form didn’t know everything about the future -- Material world view vs non-material world view are both presented in the film -- What does God deem as success? /Be warned when we place huge burdens on ourselves because we hope to create world-changing art -- How the film explores the restoration of broken relationships / Dangers of the fame monster -- That sad truth: we often wait to restore broken relationships until our hands are forced -- Bill & Ted realize what they’ve missed: the solution to their quest doesn’t rely on them alone––a very Christian message -- We have to hand our burdens and desire for self-glory over to the Father and submit our work to him -- How Michael has been fighting against the temptation to wrap his identity up in his work / Enjoy the small moments in life -- How would we end the film if it had continued for another 10 minutes? What would Bill & Ted have done as they settled back into suburban life? -------------------------------- Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYhB_T8K03t8WO1XyvjaKWA Facebook https://www.facebook.com/kingofthemiddle/ Chris’s Website http://www.cmobmo.com Michael’s Website and Amazon page https://michaeljoelgreen.wordpress.com/ https://www.amazon.com/Michael-Joel-Green/e/B007SCU7DS/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_ebooks_1

Michael and Chris grapple with the moral implications that arise when artists draw on their observations of real life experiences, relatives, and acquaintances. -- Intro: Creating Characters: Where do we find inspiration? -- Choosing a subject can reveal secrets (intended or not) about the artist: her ideologies, grudges, etc -- Michael discusses Thomas Wolfe’s early ‘fiction’ work that was actually an expose on the brokenness of his town -- Michael mentions a memoir he wrote 10 years ago; he struggled with the decision to reveal dirty laundry about someone he knew -- Chris talks about whether it’s acceptable to use other people’s real life stories in our own fiction work / Accountability to God on this -- Michael explains how he analyzes his work to determine whether he’s giving the subject matter a fair shake / How he handles telling stories about his family’s past -- Chris discusses the intersection between sharing stories from his own past in his work and the accountability he has to his parents / How being a dad himself has altered his view of the past -- Chris asks Michael to discuss a negative event about his brother and whether he would use it in his work -- Chris shares a crazy story about his own youth that might show up in a story some day -- Michael supposes that family members don’t care very much about retelling stories from their immature youth but do if a tale is critical of an adult relative -- Chris shares the circumstances under which he would be concerned if a relative wrote about him negatively in a published story -- What about writing our own life experiences into our characters? / How many characters can you harness from your own life experiences? / How do you imbue dark characters with a part of yourself? -- Humanizing characters we’ve created based on our own life observations / Chris reveals why he failed at writing a believable flesh-and-blood character in one of his stories some years back -- How far will Michael go to sync his psyche with a fictional dark character / How does a Christian resolve the tension between sharing the Good News and writing such dark characters? -- How turning 40 changed us as artists / How 30 also changed Michael -- Michael asks Chris how he would write a young troubled character (mentioned earlier in this episode) if he re-wrote the story today / How to apply our honest, raw, observational gifts to our creative storytelling -- Pop culture often feeds our desire to be distracted from this truth: we have limited time on earth. Yet believers can express truths about God’s purpose for humanity while entertaining them -- In the next podcast, we'll discuss ‘Bill & Ted Face the Music’ ------------------------------ Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYhB_T8K03t8WO1XyvjaKWA Facebook https://www.facebook.com/kingofthemiddle/ Link to Michael’s Natter book, memoir, and other books: https://michaeljoelgreen.wordpress.com/ https://www.amazon.com/Michael-Joel-Green/e/B007SCU7DS/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_ebooks_1 Chris’s Website http://www.cmobmo.com

We talk about the ups and downs, ego and pride, successes and failures that surface when working with other believers. How do you do it successfully? Can friendships survive failed projects? We take you on a journey examining our own career roadblocks for the answers. Chronological Index: Michael introduction Chris mentions pushing through the technical difficulties to execute a podcast  We discuss our recent debate about whether to continue recording King of the Middle on a weekly basis / How hard collaborating can be, especially when working with friends How rare is it to find like-minded Christian partners for projects? / Surviving clashes, learning from artistic mistakes and missteps What insight did Michael’s recent marriage give him into the similarities between matrimony and working with creative partners in a committed partnership? Chris talks about the pain of letting go of his artistic “darlings” when criticized by work partners and learning how to accept failure Chris mentions Michael Jordan’s recent eulogy at Kobe Bryant’s memorial service: Kobe was a man who sought out advice regarding his weaknesses as an NBA player and ways to improve Michael, ironically,  discusses a recent Michael Jordan documentary that painted a less than flattering look at Jordan’s ego and lack of collaborative skills Chris talks about some of his early collaborations with Christians in Los Angeles, Was he able to maintain relationships with folks when projects didn’t work out or they came to premature conclusions? Michael talks about his collaboration with Christian musicians in his early career / How did he deal with situations that fell apart? Michael compares the difference when working with nonbelievers Chris’s relatively positive experience working with a couple of nonbelievers on spec commercial projects Projects Michael and Chris are working on together / Working on a big audio drama project while navigating the choppy waters of disagreements between friends Benefits of collaboration with fellow Christians / Learning to grow through criticism from your trusted friends / Chris admits he has grown as a person and artist as result of taking criticism from Michael / Michael shares some things he witnessed working with Chris / Michael’s struggles with criticism It’s hard to find people to constructively criticize your work Tip: How Chris learned to apply better criticism to his own work / Steps he learned to write much better stories Someone we know who rebuffed criticism and paid a price Our work as Christians must be good enough to justify the energy to execute it; Will God bless stubbornly created work? We want to make a living as artists while walking with God in our missional calling / What if your art is made for hobby's sake? Michael outro ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The other limited series podcast I mentioned at the start: God & Entertainment Podcast https://anchor.fm/god-and-entertainment Our Run Diesel site: Rundiesel.com Chris’s unreleased film “A Little Picture” coming soon––so stay tuned! Facebook https://www.facebook.com/kingofthemiddle/ Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLxhg-teum4 Chris’s Website http://www.cmobmo.com Michael’s Website and Amazon page https://michaeljoelgreen.wordpress.com/ https://www.amazon.com/Michael-Joel-Green/e/B007SCU7DS/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_ebooks_1

Lawrence joins us to talk about his journey as an actor, the temptation to compare our talents to the talents of others, his struggles due to the Covid shut-down, taking roles that don't sync with Christian faith, how he and his wife (also an actor) have a plan for their mutual success, young children in the business, and more! Chronological Index: 00:09 Michael introduces Lawrence Stallings 01:35 Lawrence discusses his background / How he started acting 03:32 Lawrence’s take on his journey as an artist vs a more traditional vocation 06:27 An ever-constant threat actors face: comparing themselves to other actors / Advice Lawrence received about this ill once 08:36 Michael shares a story about an actor he knew whose confidence was beaten down by ageism and the resulting destructive comparison to others 10:20 We discuss the pitfalls of being hypercritical towards ourselves and how such a view affects our view of other’s work 13:02 What success looks like for Lawrence / Trusting the Father 15:36 Taking a role that conflicted with his faith: The Book of Mormon on Broadway / Revealing faith to coworkers in the entertainment workplace / Going where God sends you 23:59 Chris’s experience sharing faith in the workplace  24:52 Lawrence talks about being married to an actress and being a new father / Their plan to support each other’s artistic vision in their marriage 28:10 Lawrence’s recent roadtrip from New York City to Los Angeles / How being a parent changes our view about how God loves us 32:40 Chris suggests our artistic work (our “darlings”) are like our children in some ways / How we may become better artists as parents 34:05 Pros and cons: Bringing our children into the entertainment business 35:48 Michael’s outro -------------------------------------------------------- Facebook https://www.facebook.com/kingofthemiddle/ Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOIcw5jZd3c Chris’s Website http://www.cmobmo.com Michael’s Website and Amazon page https://michaeljoelgreen.wordpress.com/ https://www.amazon.com/Michael-Joel-Green/e/B007SCU7DS/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_ebooks_1

Michael and Chris discuss their dreams and fantasies of success, brushes with successful people, the journey towards success, and jealousy of those who have succeed as artists. We wrap up with a definition of "making it" in light of our identities in the Father. Chronological Index: Michael intro Chris talks about “Doing what you want to do” and Augustine / Jesus’ answer in the Gospel of John / What is “making it?” Michael shares story about a Christian band that “made it,” the temptations his friends in the band faced, and his past desire to be in a successful band Our definition of “making it” / Dreaming about success Michael expands on the Augustine quote and some of his experiences in a band Michael’s anecdote about his jealousy of another Christian band Michael mentions a friend who wants to “make it” and deliver a TED Talk someday Chris tells a story about a situation he was in where some would say he “made it,” yet he saw himself as a failure / Chasing success is an endless, hollow pursuit Michael’s early days as an actor / When has an actor “made it?” Chris discusses the journey to success and excellence as an artist who leans on Christ Michael and Chris discuss how to conduct oneself with integrity as a Christian artist (we discuss a couple of our audio fiction projects) Chris turned down some opportunities on big shows after weighing God’s will against career success The difficulty of being a hugely famous Christian in Hollywood Mention of Justine Bateman’s book on the perils of fame (Fame: The Hijacking of Reality) / Chris ran into a famous acquaintance in a 99 Cents store Keeping Michael’s successful musician friends in prayer We discuss Go-Go’s member Jane Wiedlin’s recent comment about what she learned from failure Wisdom regarding failure comes with age / our identity in the Father ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Facebook https://www.facebook.com/kingofthemiddle/ Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb5n-I2bqiw Chris’s Website http://www.cmobmo.com Michael’s Website and Amazon page https://michaeljoelgreen.wordpress.com/ https://www.amazon.com/Michael-Joel-Green/e/B007SCU7DS/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_ebooks_1

We dig into some of our favorite horror films and discuss what Christian artists can learn from the genre. Why would believers create art that incorporate demons and evil? Are there lines we shouldn't cross? What does the Bible say about ghosts?  -- Michael intro: Is it okay for Christians to watch horror films? -- Why cover this subject in this series? -- Michael’s favorite horror films -- Chris’s favorite horror films / Discussion of The Exorcist and its variants: church leaders who grapple with their faith when demons show up -- When the devil reveals himself in the real world, it isn’t always what we may expect / Chris’s experience inside a Buddhist temple in 2016 -- Why Chris likes The Exorcism of Emily Rose -- Horror films done well can teach us powerful storytelling techniques as artists -- Chris asks Michael about the dangers of writing about demons and whether artists open themselves up to trouble / Michael’s personal story: being stalked by a dark force during his Seattle days -- Chris differentiates movies about evil from movies with demonic villains / This genre reveals the truth about moral relativism: it’s false. There is such a thing as absolute truth / Chris’s fear of writing in this genre -- Discussion about the Book of Job: evil befalls him by Satan’s hand, but God elevated and protected Job in the end / Are some people more sensitive to the spiritual battle around us? -- The Sixth Sense and ghosts / How do we deal with ghosts as Christians? (See Biblical and article links below this index) / Samuel’s spirit appears to Saul; Rich young ruler calls out to Heaven from the pit 30:48 Michael discusses a Christian man he knew who was tormented by a dark force -- Chris clarifies the difference between demons and ghosts / Are ghosthunter shows real? / The purgatory issue / Are benevolent ghost tales wrong to tell as a believer? / Synopsis of film “A Ghost Story” -- Films that end unsatisfactorily (God doesn't exist vs truthful bad endings) / Why you cannot believe in demons and not God -------------------- Theological backing for this discussion: Saul asks Medium of Endor to summon Samuel (1 Samuel 28:3-20). The rich man calls out to Abraham for permission to return to life and warn his family about the consequences of death (Luke 16:19-31). Thomas sees Jesus resurrected (John 20:24-29). Jesus was not a ghost, but flesh and blood. The holy ones rose when Jesus was crucified (Matthew 27:52). They were not spirits but flesh and blood. Nice brief article on the issue by Rick Barry: https://answersingenesis.org/angels-and-demons/do-you-believe-in-ghosts/ AND Chris's limited series podcast (pandemics, zombies, and evil) with Brian Godawa: Anchor.fm/god-and-entertainment CHRIS and MICHAEL'S LINKS KotM's Youtube channel is here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYhB_T8K03t8WO1XyvjaKWA KotM's Facebook page is Facebook.com/kingofthemiddle Chris's website is Cmobmo.com Michael's website is Michaeljoelgreen.wordpress.com

Recounting their early youth, Michael and Chris discuss what they've learned about not quitting, taking criticism, and the wisdom of learning how to "kill their darlings." -- Michael intro -- Chris’s track and field story: a great metaphor for his brokenness -- Michael’s football dream hit a blockade / The experience led him towards a career in music and an ideological stance against quitting -- We distinguish between failure of grandiose dreams vs failures of personal passion projects -- Michael’s expands on a story from episode one: an actress he knew was hurt by external forces that attempted to force her down an improper career path -- Chris reveals how painful it is when art we create with passion doesn’t impact others / It’s hard to be a good self-critic -- Michael’s difficulty listening to his own recordings / A cautionary tale: how to navigate the temptation to correlate success and accolades as an actor with one’s true self-worth -- How finding your identity in the Father frees you as an artist -- The push to be a constant self-promoter can be a pitfall, especially for believers / How to guard yourself from this risk -- Chris’s need for Christian relationships to ground him and direct him away from over-focusing on around-the-clock career advancement / The difficulty in forming new church friendships in Los Angeles / Being a workout-aholic -- Michael talks about the true calling of believers and shares a beautiful story about an interaction with a resident during his service at a homeless shelter -- Outro --------------------------------- Our Youtube channel is here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYhB_T8K03t8WO1XyvjaKWA Our Facebook page is Facebook.com/kingofthemiddle Chris's work can be found at Cmobmo.com Michael's Amazon page is here and his website is Michaeljoelgreen.wordpress.com

Michael and Chris introduce the series and the meaning of the phrase "King of the Middle." They also discuss how they made inroads into their vocations in the arts with tales of mistakes and missteps along the way. 00:10 Michael intro 00:28 Chris intro / What does “King of the Middle” mean? / Are we wrong to pursue art over stable careers? 05:03 Michael’s background and struggles with faith as a young man and the path that led him to settle in Los Angeles 10:31 Michael joins a band in Seattle 13:59 Chris comments about putting one’s faith in action and why we feel we must do it through art 14:56 Michael responds to Chris 15:44 Michael continues the discussion about his band / How he improved at the craft 16:23 A setback in the band and his career / Pushing forward with humility 20:29 Chris talks about fear of criticism / Failing to ask the Father to direct his vocation and the consequences 23:48 Learning to submit to the Father / Why are we doing this podcast now? 25:31 Why Michael decided to settle in Los Angeles and shift his focus from acting and writing 29:20 Michael’s last acting gig 30:35 Introduction to Chris’s background from college to Los Angeles 31:31 Quick mention of Michael Apted’s “Up” series and how predictions can be made about a person’s life patterns from a young age 32:44 Chris heads off to Christian film school then to Hollywood / Meeting Quentin Tarantino’s future editor / Getting hired on his first job by the granddaughter of a Hollywood studio mogul / Chris’s failed tv series and website projects / His path to the studio system 40:01 How Chris got onto Curb Your Enthusiasm and the faith dilemma he faced once he got there 46:05 Why Chris is thankful for some of his failure / His final studio job working for Ryan Murphy’s production company 49:23 Michael talks about the genesis of his book idea for “King of the Middle” / Pride is a killer 51:47 How it feels when a Christian passion project falls apart 53:05 Guarding against anger when faith-based projects don’t pan out / What can we learn from this kind of failure? 53:55 The positive consequences of a failed project 57:35 Setup for next episode: Our struggles against selfish pursuits / High school origins —————————————————————— Michael’s song “For the Love of a Beautiful Heart” (and remix as mentioned in this episode) will be posted soon… —————————————————————— Our Youtube channel is here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYhB_T8K03t8WO1XyvjaKWA Our Facebook page is: Facebook.com/kingofthemiddle For information about Chris's current and upcoming projects, visit Cmobmo.com For information about Michael's current and upcoming projects, visit his Amazon page and Michaeljoelgreen.wordpress.com

Michael and Chris introduce the new podcast series and briefly discuss what it means to be "King of the Middle." Our Youtube channel is here Our Facebook page is Facebook.com/kingofthemiddle Chris's website is Cmobmo.com Michael's Amazon page is here and his website is Michaeljoelgreen.wordpress.com