Law, disrupted

John is joined by Dr. Hamed Merah, Chief Executive Officer of the Saudi Center for Commercial Arbitration (SCCA) and Nasser Alrubayyi, Managing Partner (KSA), Co-Chair Middle East & North Africa Practice .  They discuss commercial arbitration in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the recent impact of the Saudi Center for Commercial Arbitration. Dr. Hamed explains SCCA’s mission to establish a world class center with full case management services where foreign parties will feel comfortable submitting their disputes to a diverse roster of accomplished, impartial independent arbitrators. Although almost half of the SCCA’s caseload is construction related, it also adjudicates cases involving banking, capital markets, intellectual property, media, and the pharmaceutical industry.  They discuss how legislation in the last five years has removed restrictions on Saudi governmental entities submitting disputes to arbitration to the point that arbitration with the SCCA is now the default option in contracts between governmental entities and foreign parties. Nasser explains that parties are increasingly moving from ad hoc stand-alone arbitration procedures to institutional arbitration through the SCCA because the SCCA is the quicker and more cost efficient option. Dr Hamed also describes a recent study concluding that more than 90% of the SCCA’s awards have been upheld when challenged in annulment proceedings.  Finally, they discuss how arbitration with the SCCA is becoming more popular in technical cases, IP cases and construction disputes.Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Professor Song Sang-Hyun, retired Professor of Law at Seoul National University and former President of the International Criminal Court.  Professor Song explains the origins of the Korean civil justice system which is based upon the German system by way of Japan.  He discusses  how after World War II, American Army officers drafted many of Korea’s statutes and, in the past two decades, American law in fields such as corporate law, shipping and aviation law, antitrust law, securities regulations, intellectual property, and class action lawsuits have increasingly influenced Korean law.  They then discuss Korean pretrial practice which does not involve voluminous document discovery or any depositions and often involves the trial judge also acting as a mediator.  Professor Song explains some of the unique aspects of Korean trial practice including Korea’s recent adoption of juries that render advisory decisions on disputed facts and that cases average less than a year from filing through trial.  They also discuss that the loser must pay the winner’s attorneys’ fees, although, in practice, courts tend to award less than all the fees incurred.  Finally, they discuss some of the emerging issues in Korean law including labor, environmental and privacy law as well as the protection of personal information.Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Eytan Liraz, the Principal of Eytan Liraz & Co. Law Offices, one of the foremost business litigation firms in Israel.  Eytan explains some of the unique aspects of business litigation in Israel, including that Israel has more lawyers per capita than any other country on earth, that aggressive litigation is a common and accepted business strategy, and that Israel has far more class action lawsuits than other countries, including lawsuits where the complaints are literally copies of class action complaints that have been filed in the U.S.  He also explains the three phases that each lawsuit goes through: (1) the initial phase in which the claimant files a statement of claim raising its main arguments and elements of proof and the defendant files a statement of defense containing its arguments and proof, (2) the pretrial phase in which limited discovery and any preliminary motions take place and all evidence and expert opinions are filed with the court, and (3) the interrogation phase in which the parties are allowed to conduct cross-examinations of the adversary’s witnesses.  Cases are usually decided within one year and four months of the first filing.  Finally, they discuss the impact the events of October 7 have had on litigation in Israel including the number of lawyers who are not available due to military service, the entire court system shutting down for two months and the general effect, now dissipating, of people being unusually reluctant to litigate.Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Courtney Bowman, the Global Director of Privacy and Civil Liberties at Palantir, one of the foremost companies in the world specializing in software platforms for big data analytics. They discuss the emerging trends in AI regulation.  Courtney explains the AI Act recently passed by the EU Parliament, including the four levels of risk it assesses for different AI systems and the different regulatory obligations imposed on each risk level, how the Act treats general purpose AI systems and how the final Act evolved in response to lobbying by emerging European companies in the AI space. They discuss whether the EU AI Act will become the global standard international companies default to because the European market is too large to abandon. Courtney also explains recent federal regulatory developments in  the U.S. including the framework for AI put out by the National Institute of Science and Technology, the AI Bill of Rights announced by the White House which calls for voluntary compliance to certain principles by industry and the Executive Order on Safe, Secure and Trustworthy Development and Use of Artificial Intelligence which requires each department of the federal government to develop its own plan for the use and deployment of AI.  They also discuss the wide range of state level AI legislative initiatives and the leading role California has played in this process.  Finally, they discuss the upcoming issues legislatures will need to address including translating principles like accountability, fairness and transparency into concrete best practices, instituting testing, evaluation and validation methodologies to ensure that AI systems are doing what they're supposed to do in a reliable and trustworthy way, and addressing concerns around maintaining AI systems over time as the data used by the system continuously evolves over time until it no longer accurately represents the world that it was originally designed to represent.Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Christopher Bogart, CEO, Director and Co-Founder of Burford Capital, the largest litigation funding firm in the world.  They discuss the use of AI and data science in litigation funding decisions. Chris explains that while AI is currently not advanced enough to make decisions on whether to fund a case, advances in data science now allow litigation funders to improve their decisions by examining enormous amounts of public data to find meaningful facts such as accurate damage ranges that are often buried deep in individual case dockets. Chris also identifies the key data points used to evaluate whether to fund a case, including the legal theory of the case, the counsel representing the parties, the judge or arbitrator presiding over the case, and the likely time to reach an outcome.  Finally, John and Chris also discuss other ways that AI is impacting the legal profession including the use of AI to provide real time assistance in cross examination, the use of AI by courts in Singapore and Connecticut to adjudicate low value routine matters and traffic violations, and how AI has enabled smaller firms to expand into areas of litigation they previously could not handle such as large antitrust cases by automating the review and processing of millions of pages of documents. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Bethany W. Kristovich, Partner and Co-Chair of the Professional Liability Defense Group at Munger, Tolles & Olson, LLP.  They discuss some of the unique aspects of legal malpractice cases, including how often they arise from collection cases, how a plaintiff must prove not only malpractice but that without the malpractice, the case would have had a different result, the importance of expert testimony in malpractice cases, and the difficulty of mastering damages theories from both the underlying case and the malpractice action.  Bethany explains some of the worst things that can happen in a malpractice case, including the lawyer criticizing the former client so much it provokes a backlash by the jury, internal emails in which lawyers on the same team criticize each other’s work, and lawyers who appear arrogant because they don’t know their own rates.  Finally, Bethany explains several ways lawyers can protect themselves from malpractice claims, including making sure the client is worthy of the firm before taking their case, getting a retainer and staying current on billing and collections, creating short agendas for telephone conversations to document the topics being discussed, and including the client in all decisions about the case.Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Júlio César Bueno, Partner and Head of Litigation at Pinheiro Neto Advogados, one of the most highly regarded law firms in Brazil. Júlio explains some of the unique characteristics of the Brazilian civil justice system, including the ability of lawyers to have ex partecommunications with the judge and the severe limits on pretrial discovery. They discuss the burdens imposed by Brazil’s enormous docket (over 83 million pending cases) on the system, including the lengthy delays, the extremely short time allocated for oral argument or witness examination and the resulting importance of winning cases through written submissions. They also discuss how these burdens have led to an increase in arbitration, particularly in infrastructure and merger and acquisition disputes, as well as the increasing digitalization of the entire court system.  Finally, Júlio explains that disputes over mergers and acquisitions, corporate shareholder disputes and environmental litigation are the most rapidly growing areas in Brazilian civil disputes. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

Guests:  Robert Zink, former head of the U.S. Justice Department’s Criminal Division, Fraud Section and partner in Quinn Emanuel’s Washington, D.C. office and Steve Madison, former federal prosecutor and partner in Quinn Emanuel’s Los Angeles office. John, Robert, and Steve follow up on their August 2023 podcast about the four pending criminal actions against former President Donald Trump. They discuss how events might play out if , as seems likely, Trump is convicted in one or more of the cases.  They discuss the current timeline of each case and which will likely go to trial before the November election. They also discuss the consequences of possible convictions in each case, including the range of potential sentences, the procedures involved in sentencing, and the likelihood that he would remain free on bond.  They also discuss the impact any potential convictions would have on his ability to remain on the ballot, possible challenges to enforcing any sentences should he win the election, and the possibility of obtaining pardons, whether by himself or President Biden for the potential federal convictions or by the Governors of New York or Georgia in the state cases. They also discuss a potential Constitutional crisis if he were to refuse to report to prison and potential solutions such as a special sentencing to home detention or delayed prison time until after presidential term.  .  Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Dennis Hranitzky, partner in Quinn Emanuel’s Salt Lake City, New York and London Offices,  Head of the firm’s Sovereign Litigation practice and Co-Head of the firm’s Global Asset Recovery Practice.  They discuss various kinds of litigation, arbitration and collection actions against sovereign states. They discuss collection cases against sovereign states resulting from those states’ default on debt instruments, the challenges faced by creditors who hold out after most creditors agree to a debt restructuring arrangement with the sovereign, recent proposed legislation any other government actionsfavoring sovereigns, the current sovereign debt crisis, and concerns about opportunistic funds who seek profit by collecting on devalued sovereign debt.  They also discuss investor state arbitration generally, for example, after a company has invested in a project in a country and the country fundamentally changes the terms under which the investment was made, such as radically raising taxes as Spain did with respect to renewable energy projects after 2008. They discuss the position taken by the EU that EU courts cannot enforce arbitration awards against EU nations even when the nation entered voluntarily into an arbitration treaty and recent indications that the United States government supports the position of the EU.  Finally, they discuss litigation against sovereigns unrelated to sovereign debt, such as litigation against state sponsors of terrorism including the lawsuit Quinn Emanuel recently filed against Iran on behalf of victims of the October 7, 2023 Hamas attacks. Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by David A. Nelson, a partner in the Chicago office of Quinn Emanuel & co-chair of the firm’s National Intellectual Property Litigation Practice. David is widely recognized as one of the most successful patent trial lawyers in the United States. They discuss how trying patent cases is different than trying other commercial cases. They also discuss how to win patent cases at trial including the importance of developing common sense explanations for technical arguments, developing a consistent narrative from the beginning, and using fact witnesses to bring life to your technical arguments.If you enjoy this episode, please leave a like, review, or comment on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any major podcast platform.Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Jim Wilkinson, Executive Chairman of TrailRunner International and Former White House Director of Communications.  They discuss the art of preparing witnesses to testify before congressional committees which is very different than testifying in court. This includes the importance of researching the members of Congress who will question the witness, knowing the discussions occurring in online forums each member frequents, and the four to six categories of questions they are likely to ask.  Using specific examples, they also discuss the importance of knowing and using “megatrends” in public opinion, the advantages of having a few key metaphors or “haymakers,” and the importance of preparing three or four “pivot points” to turn the force of an aggressive question away from the witness.  Finally, they discuss the role counsel can play in preparing the witness including researching evidence that makes the witness’s points, helping the witness to make their key arguments cogently, and providing confidence that their testimony will not create any legal jeopardy.Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Major Ben Wahlhaus who serves in the International Law Department of the Israel Defense Forces.   They discuss the application of the international law of armed conflict to the current operations in the Gaza Strip, including the sources of that law and the role that the International Law Department of the IDF plays in trying to assure compliance. They also discuss the three cardinal principles of targeting: distinction (which prohibits intentionally targeting civilians or civilian objects), precautions (which requires taking all feasible measures to mitigate civilian harm), and proportionality (which for each individual attack requires balancing the anticipated military advantage against the expected civilian harm) and the rules, procedures, and policies the IDF has in place to follow these principles in every attack.  They also discuss the distinction between war crimes and crimes against humanity and apply both legal standards to the actions of Hamas and the IDF after October 7.  They discuss Major Wahlhaus’ day to day activities as a lawyer adviser to the IDF.  Finally, they discuss the action South Africa brought before the World Court alleging that Israel is currently engaged in war crimes as well as genocide, including the Major’s role as part of Israel’s defense team and the evidence presented concerning Israel’s efforts to mitigate civilian harm.Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Hisaya Kimura, Senior Counsel in the Tokyo office of Nagashima Ohno & Tsunematsu. They discuss aspects of the Japanese legal system, including Japan’s historical adoption of the German civil procedure system and subsequent incorporation of elements, such as cross-examination, of the American system. They also discuss how Japanese litigants typically exchange multiple detailed briefs covering both factual and legal issues in detail for years before trial followed by trials that last less than a day with only one witness testifying for each side. They also discuss key differences between Japanese and American litigation, including the absence of discovery, juries, and punitive damages in Japan as well as the application of the beyond reasonable doubt standard in civil litigation. Finally, they discuss recent changes to the legal profession in Japan, including the expansion of Japanese law firms beyond litigation to include advice on regulatory, M&A and competition issues, the expansion of leading Japanese firms into international markets and the impact foreign firms have had by opening Japanese offices.Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Temi Omilabu, an associate in Quinn Emanuel’s New York office.  They discuss her remarkable journey from her childhood in Lagos, Nigeria, to becoming a trial lawyer at Quinn Emanuel, including the adjustments she had to make moving from Lagos to first Florida then Texas, her years at Case Western University where she earned her Master’s degree in Bioethics and her work after graduating for two global health-focused nonprofits.  They also discuss her love of advocacy and storytelling that led her to law school, her internship in the Manhattan District Attorney’s Office and her post-law school fellowship in the General Counsel’s Office at Yale.  Finally, they discuss how Temi’s interest in litigation lead her to Quinn Emanuel’s New York office,  where she immediately started working on depositions and on multi-district litigation and went to trial in a pro bono case within her first year with the firm.Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Emmanuel Givanakis, the CEO of Abu Dhabi Global Markets Financial Services Authority (ADGM).  They discuss the growth of the ADGM as a leading international financial center based on its unique structure as an independent free zone within Abu Dhabi in which English common law directly applies and judges from the UK and other common law countries hear cases in an independent common law court.  They discuss the role the ADGM plays in diversifying Abu Dhabi’s economy away from the oil and gas industry, the importance of providing legal certainty to attract investors, and how the ADGM  chose aspects of corporate, insolvency and financial services legislation from the UK, Australia and international financial regulatory groups to craft its own financial legislation that reflected international “best practices” that would be familiar to investors from any continent.  They also discuss how the ADGM has implemented legislation regarding FinTech, digital assets and carbon markets and how AI can promote regulatory compliance.  Finally, they discuss challenges the ADGM may face in the future including the possibility of a global recession, geopolitical issues in the region, as well as the importance of allowing capital to move freely into and out of the region.Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Leslie Zhang Weihua, Vice President and General Counsel of United Energy Group, China, one of the largest independent oil and gas companies in the world.  They discuss Leslie’s extensive experience in international legal affairs, including his experience as general counsel for both large state-owned enterprises (SOEs) and private companies in China.   They discuss the differences between providing legal services for SOEs and private companies, including the additional procedures SOEs must follow in making business decisions, the strategic issues in addition to return on investment that SOEs must consider and how rate sensitive SOE’s procurement procedures are and how that applies to hiring counsel.  They also discuss the expectations that Chinese clients have with respect to counsel finding creative solutions to regulatory issues, the rates paid for unsuccessful legal projects, and responsiveness in providing legal analysis. They also compare Chinese and Western law firms with respect to training, expertise, and specialization while noting the ongoing expansion of Chinese firms into international work and the Chinese government’s policy of encouraging the continued development of international arbitration centers in Hong Kong and Singapore.  Finally, they discuss the role lawyers can play in improving relations between the United States and China including the importance of recognizing the risks and costs of decoupling.Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Sean Grimsley, Partner at Olson, Grimsley, Kawanabe, Hinchcliff & Murray LLC, one of the lawyers who represented the plaintiffs in the case in which the Colorado Supreme Court made the historic ruling that former President Donald Trump is not eligible to be elected President in 2024.  They discuss how Sean became involved in the case which his firm filed the day after it first opened its doors, how the case progressed rapidly as a special expedited state court proceeding under the Colorado Election Code, and the bench trial that concluded less than two and a half months after the case was filed.  They also discuss the fact witness who testified about the events of January 6, 2021 and the battle of historical legal experts on the original meaning of Section Three of the 14th Amendment which provides that no person may hold federal office if they previously took an oath of loyalty to the United States and later engaged in insurrection against it.  They also discuss the defenses asserted that the Colorado Election Code did not apply, that the Presidency is not an “office” within the meaning of the 14thAmendment, that this was a political question under federal constitutional law, that the only actions complained of consisted of protected speech under the First Amendment, and that the events of January 6 did not amount to an insurrection.  Finally, they discuss the expedited  appeal of the trial court’s decision before the Colorado Supreme Court, the likelihood that the U.S. Supreme Court will review the case and the status of similar 14th amendment  suits in other statesPodcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Michael Nosanchuk, an associate in Quinn Emanuel’s New York office.  They discuss Michael’s unique journey from studying screenwriting, to driving a taxi in New York City, to his time in sustainable farming to ultimately becoming a successful lawyer working in the premier art disputes practice in the world. They also discuss how these experiences prepared him for his career in law, including how driving a cab taught him cultural fluency, farming taught him patience and perseverance, and screenwriting taught him the importance of carefully crafting an emotionally moving story and telling the story in limited time. Finally, they discuss what led him to join Quinn Emanuel, including its heterogeneous collection of driven people and Michael’s observations of how art disputes differ from other kinds of litigation.Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Yixuan Zhu, an Associate in Quinn Emanuel’s Beijing office with a unique expertise in both Chinese and American law.  They discuss Yixuan's background studying law and passing the bar in both China and the U.S., including her experience conducting high stakes investigations in China for multinational companies involving the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act and other anti-bribery laws, her decision to join Quinn Emanuel’s Shanghai office, and her studies at both Harvard and the University of Indiana.  They also discuss Yixuan's experience in Quinn Emanuel’s New York office including representing KKR in a trial over an important real estate transaction and her role in expedited multi-billion dollar litigation in Delaware Chancery Court in the first busted deal case of the Covid era, including her cross-examination of the other side’s expert at trial.  Finally, they discuss her experience helping Quinn Emanuel open both its Shanghai and Beijing offices, her status as probably the only Chinese lawyer to have cross-examined a witness in a Delaware Chancery Court trial, and her suggestions to leaders in both countries on how to better understand the other. After this podcast was recorded (but not because of it!), Yixuan was elected to partnership in the firmPodcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

John is joined by Eric F. Grossman, Chief Legal Officer and Chief Administrative Officer of Morgan Stanley.  They discuss the current legal issues facing General Counsel at major international institutions including how generative AI and machine learning will impact legal services and how companies interact with their clients; when companies should speak out on social issues; and the current regulatory push regarding financial disclosures, antitrust concerns and climate related issues.  They also discuss ESG efforts including the impact of such efforts on employee morale, the capital commitments necessary to transition to sustainability and the importance of accuracy in disclosing ESG commitments.  They also discuss cryptocurrencies, including building the infrastructure and trading and the relatively slow adoption of blockchain.  Finally, they discuss areas of increasing legal risk, including risks facing businesses built on business models that assumed low interest rates and the opportunities for distressed asset investors and bankruptcy practitioners.Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fmHost: John B. Quinn Producer: Alexis HydeMusic and Editing by: Alexander Rossi