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Interviews with Creatives
20 Episodes
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Erik Millstone is an Emeritus Professor of Science Policy in the Science Policy Research Unit (SPRU) at the University of Sussex. He gained a first degree in Physics, followed by three postgraduate degrees in Philosophy.His expertise centers on the role of scientific expertise and evidence in managing technological risks, especially those arising in the food chain.Currently retired but still active in doctoral advising and public commentary. We connected to discuss food safety, regulation, questioning authority, Iran, Brexit, and his past as a scientist, and researcher.Connect with Professor MillstoneFull transcript @ Leafbox.com This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com
Interview: Aaron Moulton

Interview: Aaron Moulton

2023-05-0902:24:52

Aaron Moulton is an American curator based out of Denmark. Formally with Gagosian Galleries, and other international galleries he is interested in secrets of creativity, the evolution of art, perception, and roots his curatorial practice in anthropology, journalism, innovation, folklore etc.I first became interested in Aaron’s work finding his massive, fascinating and riddle like exposure of the Soros Centers for Contemporary Art. We discussed this project but also survey some major curations over about 20 years to understand the arc of his exploration.Major Works / Projects Discussed* The Influence Machine (PDF)* Each Memory Recalled Must Do Some Violence To Its Origins @ Undisclosed Location Utah 2012* AMERICANAESOTERICA* Trito Ursitori* Homage to Hollis Benton* Homage Benton Interview* Seeing Eye AwarenessConnect with Aaron MoultonPhotos / Videos / Images Courtesy of Aaron MoultonFull Transcript @ Leafbox.com This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com
Interview: Tao Lin

Interview: Tao Lin

2023-04-1901:06:03

The Times of the UK called Tao Lin “a daring, urgent voice for a malfunctioning age,"I agree. Tao Lin is an exciting original acclaimed voice trying who is trying to make make sense of the personal and external confusion.He’s an American novelist, poet, essayist, short-story writer and artist. He’s published several novels, and works of non fiction. He has published several books, including the acclaimed novels 'Taipei,' 'Shoplifting from American Apparel,' and 'Leave Society.' Tao is also the editor of MuuMuu House, which he founded in 2008. Currently living on the Big Island in Hawaii, Tao continues to push the boundaries of contemporary literature with his thought-provoking and innovative work.We connect today to explore his current work on his body mind, his current writing, his views on spirituality, daily routines, the rural vs urban, how he navigates the tension between mainstream and alternative narratives, gate keeping, poisoning the well, on relationships, and how Tao continues to push the boundaries of contemporary thought with original innovative work.I’ve been following Tao’s work for over a decade so this was a treat to connect.Connect with Tao Lin @ http://www.taolin.usFull Transcript @ Leafbox.com This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com
Environmental Toxicologist who originally worked on acid rain, metal pollution, water quality, air quality and related matters to shift later in her career to focus primarily in electromagnetic radiation, radio frequency radiation, electromagnetic fields, dirty electricity, and work on those who are electrically hypersensitive. Dr Magda Havas is Associate Professor of Environmental & Resource Studies at TrentUniversity where she teaches and does research on the biological effects of environmental contaminants. Dr. Havas received her Ph.D. from the University of Toronto, completed Post-Doctoral research at Cornell University, and taught at the University of Toronto before going to Trent University in Peterborough, Canada.We spoke in detail about her work, research, openness in science, her experience in science and policy, advising the medical community and more. Connect with Dr HavasFull Transcription @ Leafbox.com This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com
Andrew is a catholic, a writer, and a rural revivalist advocating for a traditional lifestyle.We talked about his online handle shagbark, about his experience living nomadically across the US for 5 years, the collapse of the western civilization, degeneracy and escape, rumspringer , the dark night of the soul, finding optimism in building local communities, rural vs urban life, the Amish, opportunities in the future and the ultimate importance of land, nature, and spirituality for personal fulfillment.Connect with Andrew on Twitter @Shagbark or via his SubstackFull Transcript @ Leafbox.com This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com
Thomas Kloepfer and his wife run Pitchfork Farms, an eco-friendly farm located on Mukaishima in Onomichi, Hiroshima. The farm cultivates seasonal fruits, vegetables, and herbs on a thriving hillside market garden and orchard overlooking the Seto-Inland sea. As regenerative farmers, the farm aims to maintain natural cycles and reduce the use of off-farm resources by producing their own energy, seeds, and fertilizers. In addition to being a sustainable farm, Pitchfork Farms is also an off-grid energy producer and rainwater and well water harvester. The farm is home to sheep, chickens, and ducks, and is dedicated to connecting the community to sustainable farming practices while celebrating the land and people.We spoke in detail about his past, his goals, farming, and future.Transcript @ Leafbox.comConnect with Pitchforkfarms.jp This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com
Interview: Marek Lehocky

Interview: Marek Lehocky

2023-03-2901:18:59

In November 2022, Marek Lehocky and his swimming partner Dr. Steven Minaglia completed a challenging, staged circumnavigation swim around the island of Oahu. This impressive accomplishment marks the first unassisted circumnavigation of the island on record.Marek Lehocky, originally from Slovakia and now residing in Honolulu, is the CEO of Kreston ProWorks, a business support services company based in Tokyo, Japan.During our conversation, we delved into various topics such as his upbringing, love for the ocean, the importance of goal-setting, transnational business experience, breathing and perseverance, and his insight into determination.Marek brings a unique cultural lens to the conversation, which is invaluable in understanding and navigating the complexities of the modern world. His multicultural background and transnational experience provide him with a nuanced perspective in understanding and navigating the complexities of the modern world.Connect with Marek and his Oahu Circumnavigation SwimFull Transcript @ Leafbox.com This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com
Interview: Arturo Tafoya

Interview: Arturo Tafoya

2023-03-2601:25:24

Interview: Arturo TafoyaMaybe you’ve heard of Cicada 3301. If not its a mysterious and highly secretive organization that emerged in 2012 and over several years posted on various internet forums and websites, puzzled that induced steganography, cryptography and other forms of esoteric knowledge. Some believed it to be a recruitment tool for highly skilled linguists, computer programmers, cryto-graphers.  The puzzles led participants on a months-long scavenger hunt around the world, with clues hidden in various locations such as books, music, and artwork. Those who successfully completed the puzzles were believed to have been contacted by Cicada 3301 and offered the opportunity to join the organization, although the true nature and purpose of the group remain unknown.Cicada 3301 has been the subject of much speculation and investigation over the years, with some suggesting it may be a government agency, a private organization, or even an elaborate prank or social experiment. However, the true identity and intentions of Cicada 3301 remain shrouded in mystery.I however had the pleasure of speaking with artist and researcher Arturo Tafoya who was recruited to create art assets for Cicada 3301 and was engaged actively with a group that ultimately was likely a splinter faction of Cicada 3301 in 2017.We spoke in detail about his experience, the current state of Cicada, disinformation, psychological operations, hyperstition , QAnon, other internet lore and ultimately sense making.Arturo is currently working on a book and a documentary. His art was used in a VICE and HBO documentary on QAnon and I thought this was a good discussion and introduction to a complex information world.  Hopefully you can take his advise to remain emotionally disconnected in your own sense making.Researcher and Artist Arturo TafoyaHe archives videos ConspiracyDistillery.com or on YoutubeRead transcript and notes @ leafbox.com This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com
Interview: Aaron Fletcher

Interview: Aaron Fletcher

2023-03-0401:03:49

Aaron Fletcher is a nomadic farmhand and subsistence dairy shepherd who lives currently in the Pacific Northwest. He lives a "home-free" lifestyle that involves connecting with local food sources and working towards local food sustainability. As a voluntarily "home-free" activist, Aaron focuses on local solutions to world problems.In Aaron's words, being "home-free" is not the same as being homeless or housed. Instead, it is the third side of a coin. He believes that there have always been people who have possessions and those who do not, but being "home-free" means being a "have-not-want."Aaron's experiments in minimizing his ecological footprint, connecting with local food sources, and building communities are inspiring and educational. His lifestyle offers one model for surviving and thriving in a post-collapse society. We can all learn from his experiences and apply them to our own lives, whether we choose to follow in his footsteps or not.Thank you for listening and reading.More information from Aaron @ 123homefree.orgFull Transcription @ Leafbox.comCredits : Photos from Aaron FletcherAI Transcription done via Whisper LibraryMusical intro in podcast features sound samples from* Tom Skinner - The Day After Tomorrow * JJJJJerome Ellis - Fountain #3 This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com
Yannick Dauby is a French sound artist and field recorder based in Taiwan. He also works in sound designs for film. He also produces audio documentary as well as electroacoustic music compositions.Dauby’s works are inspired by ethnography, amphibian conservation, stories from the forests & mountains and marine biology. He collaborates with communities and individuals in Hakka villages and Indigenous territories of Taiwan.I find his soundscapes inspiring and his work fascinating. I recently had the pleasure and honor of engaging his work more deeply via an interview.I recommend listening to the soundcape above that he provided as well as the additional ones below a fuller immersive experience. This was a pleasure to edit and explore. I hope you enjoy it as well.Please read the accompany interview and listen to additional soundscapes + photography for a full experience. Full interview @ www.leafbox.com/interview-yannick-dauby/ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com
Interview: Dr. Jose Domingo

Interview: Dr. Jose Domingo

2022-12-1601:08:35

Dr Jose L. Domingo is the Distinguished Professor (Emeritus) of Toxicology and Environmental Health at the Universitat Rovira i Virgili, School of Medicine. We spoke in detail about his interest and history in toxicology, regulation, concerns regarding the lack of study into the potential side effects of COVID 19 vaccines, regulatory frameworks, the peer review process, and more.Dr Domingo's research focuses on, among other topics, the potential human health effects of environmental and food contaminants.Dr Domingo is the editor-in-chief of the scientific journal Environmental Research and was until recently the editor-in-chief of Food and Chemical Toxicology.Prof. Domingo is founder and director of the Laboratory of Toxicology and Environmental Health and Tecnatox (www.tecnatox.cat). He is author or co-author of 680 papers (Scopus) published in international peer-reviewed journals. According to Google Scholar, these papers mean over 30,200 citations with a current h-index of 86. He has managed an important number of projects for public administrations and private companies. He has directed more than 40 PhD theses. Prof. Domingo is a Highly Cited Researcher and he belongs to various international scientific societies such as the Society of Toxicology USA, INA, SEBM, etc.Full Transcript @ Leafbox.com This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com
Dr Cook is a board certified psychiatrist in private practice. He is the founding director of Beyond Mental Health, a Honolulu, Hawaii practice combining traditional psychiatry with alternative care models using nutritional supplements, nootropics, TMS therapy, medical cannabis, ketamine, to empower patients. Dr Cook is also and advisor to the Clarity Project, a lobbying effort to improve medical access to psychadelics in the state.We spoke in detail about his general practice, marijuana, ketamine, psychadelics and alternative modalities, societal breakdown, parenting and the role of technology in today’s mental health climate.Full Transcript @ Leafbox.com This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com
Remedial Literacy Specialist, Author, and Waldorf Literacy Curriculum AdvisorWhile at first the following interview might appear only to be of interest and highly specific to the world of Waldorf educators, parents and students - rest assured that I can recommend it to a broader community. Valuable lessons and questions arise from the conversation with Jennifer Milizer-Kopperal including but not limited to the role of alternative education, the philosophy of Rudolph Steiner, the role of technology in education and learning, the holistic importance of literacy, multi-lingual environments, child development and other related broad topics etc. Jennifer Milizer-Kopperal is a literacy remedial specialist, author and educator developing and improving literacy programs in Waldorf Education. She is the co-author along with Janet Langley of the The Roadmap to Literacy: A Guide to Teaching Language Arts in Waldorf Schools Grades 1 through 3. The guide provides clear guidance on teaching literacy in the early grades. It builds off the work of Rudolf Steiner, founder of Waldorf education, by adding in material that is specific to the English language as well as modern research in literacy skills. She is also also author of the sequel Continuing the Journey to Literacy: A Guide to Teaching Language Arts in Waldorf Schools Grades 4 through 8  Students in this collection then dive into the subject blocks and learn about English, history, geography, natural science, and more. Jennifer’s two books form a complete program for teaching language arts in Waldorf Schools grades 1–8. She calls this program Renewal of Literacy. Jennifer is also the creator of www.renewalofliteracy.com.Learn more @ https://renewalofliteracy.com/Full Transcript @ Leafbox.comAlso recommend reading Jennifer's post interview notes that are available within the interview transcription. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com
For this week’s conversation I had the pleasure of learning from Brian Patterson, a Cayman Islands based, Bermudian corporate offshoring expert, crypto council and lawyer. With the entire FTX implosion currently occurring I thought it would be prudent to speak with someone at the heart of the nexus between crypto, the Caribbean, international offshoring, regulation and international banking. For those not caught up with the FTX scandal - I recommend reading before listening or reading the below interview.* “Sadly, FTX” Excellent Summary by Zvi Mowshowitz * A Grand Unified Theory of the FTX Disaster - by Mathew Crawford - For a more ‘conspiratorial take on the implosion but equally important summary Brian Patterson is also my first cousin. He is originally Bermudian but is based currently in the Cayman Islands. He is also a certified executive coach and trainer, an RYT-200 yoga and meditation teacher, and an avid scuba diver.Full Transcription @ Leafbox.com This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com
Rob Auten is a video game writer whose writing credits include Gears of War: Judgment (cowritten with Tom Bissell) as well as titles like Tom Clancy’s Rainbow Six. He is also the CEO and co-founder of Hexagram, an immersive “ambient experience” studio focused on immersive game experiences that blend reality and fiction in innovative ways. I caught up with Rob after a trip home to Dubai where he is currently based. We discussed his youth, his interest in narrative, toys, play, video games, VR, managing a studio and narrative.—Podcast Notes / Full transcription @ Leafbox.com @5 Min - Childhood / College Experiences@21 Min: Shifting into Hollywood / Music Video Production@27: Shifting into Video Game Writing / Gears of War@32: The Writer’s Room Experience@38: Narrative Structures of Game Design@44: Narrative Game Rails / Narrative Mechanics@52: Writing the Kilo Squad: The Survivor's Log@56: Dubai Mall Gear of War Laser Tag@58: Why did you start Hexagram?@59 Cadillac Immersive Installation@1:02: Role of Ai in Game Development@1:10: Discussion on VR@1:17 Dubai / Remote Work@1:20 Comparative Game Literature—Full transcription @ Leafbox.com More on Hexagram This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com
Seneca Scott was so generous to give me an hour of his time to walk through his background, his philosophical framework, his vision for Oakland and give me what he call’s the “Green Pill”. He’s running as an independent for Mayor of Oakland, California in 2022.Full transcript @ www.leafbox.com/interview-seneca-scott/Connect with Seneca Scott @Seneca4Mayor This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com
Interview: Gail Fuller

Interview: Gail Fuller

2022-10-2043:53

Gail Fuller practices no-till crop farming and cattle grazing in Eastern Kansas.He also runs with his wife Lynette Miller, the Fuller Field School, a near decade long effort to connect and educate farmers, ranchers, researchers and community leaders to share ideas, innovate and build relationships in a holistic way. I was lucky to connect with Gail to discuss his past, holistic improvement, regenerative farming, connecting to food and rebuilding communities...Full Transcript @ Leafbox.comConnect with Fuller Farms This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com
Zachary Smith is an ordained Zen priest based out of San  Francisco. We connected over a discussion politics,  life, Zen, parenting, psychadelics and more.Full Transcription @ https://www.leafbox.com/interview-zachary-smith/Connect  with  Zach @ http://stupahead.com/ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com
Interview: Kana Chan

Interview: Kana Chan

2022-10-0652:32

Kana Chan is a Canadian living in Kamikatsu, Shikoku which is Japan’s first “zero waste” village in rural Japan.  She records her daily life at her substack at Tending Gardens and runs inow (いのう)an educational homestay program that connects visitors with longer work stays in Kamikatsu along with another two partners. We spoke in detail about her homestay program, tourism, the urban vs rural, dating, language learning, dialects, zero waste and more.Full Transcript available on Leafbox.comConnect with Kana on her substack  Tending Gardens or apply to be part of the inow program. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit leafbox.substack.com
Interview: Ran Prieur

Interview: Ran Prieur

2022-09-2801:06:02

Ran Prieur is a philosopher, writer, blogger, and is well known for writing on collapse, society, psychology, freedom, drugs and consciousness. We spoke about these topics and more.Leafbox: Ran, thanks so much for taking some time. I've been a reader of your essays for many, many years... I've watched some of your documentaries, but I think I get a sense of who you are, but if you were to introduce yourself to someone new who's never read one of your works, what's your first kind of statement, usually, on who you are, what you're into.Ran:Oh, I don't know. I've been doing a blog for about 20 years. I used to write about ... I guess I'd say I used to write about critique of civilization... Now I'm writing more about psychology and metaphysics and less about politics and society, but I'm still kind of interested in that stuff. I'm writing a novel. It's going very slowly. I just like to think about things and write about things.Leafbox:So maybe we can start there since you're in Seattle and you're more interested in the psychology. I was watching the short documentary about you, and I think a lot of ... I wouldn't call you a ... I guess  not a prepper, but a doomer, but there's kind of a sense of a meaning of crisis in the West. And I'm curious where you think that comes from?Ran:The sense ... where does the sense of crisis come from?Leafbox:Yeah. The meaning of crisis in the West, possibly.Ran:The meaning of crisis, like what meaning do people get out of thinking there's a crisis? Or ... I mean, I can talk a little bit about why people might ... what sense of meaning people might get out of ... I mean, I think there is a crisis and I think there's a lot of things that are going on right now that can't keep going the way they're going. And I used to more of a doomer. I still think that there's going to be a lot of big changes. I think we're in the middle right now. We're in the middle of a slow collapse and people get a sense of meaning about ... well, I think that's part of the reason that we're in a slow collapse, is people want to be part of something.People want to feel like they're participating in something that they feel good about. And society is not doing a very good job of giving that feeling to people.So they get into other things and other movements, some of which might destabilize the system that we've got. People might ... I mean, it's fun to imagine that everything is going to collapse and that I have these special skills other people don't have that let me do better other people. And a lot of people think that way, I might say the intersection of meaning and collapse.Leafbox:And where do you think ... why do you think society's failing to give meaning to Western, kind of modern people?Ran:Why do I think it's failing? Well, you can see this and a lot of things where something starts out ... when something starts out, people are excited about it and then it just builds up all kinds of cruff, it builds up lots of stuff that's just added on and it's easy to add stuff and hard to take stuff away. There's an important book that I haven't read, but everybody talks about it, The Collapse of Complex Societies by Joseph Tainter, and he just talks about how complexity ... societies keep adding complexity, incrementally. It's easy to add complexity incrementally and hard to remove it incrementally.So they just tend to build up more and more complexity and then lose a bunch of complexity all of a sudden.So, you know, you could look at how much more expensive it is now to build things than it used to be. If you want to build a tunnel or a new subway, even accounting for inflation, it's way more expensive, and nobody is sure exactly why that is, but I think it's just that society gets more complex and the more complex it gets, the more clunky it gets.And part of that is the ability to provide meaning. I think ... I can go on a bit of a tangent. I'm optimistic about the unconditional basic income. If we get something like that, then ... what people want is they want to do things. The goal for society should be a society that builds itself upward from what people enjoy doing. And ... it's hard to do that. And a society might originally build itself upward for what people enjoy doing. And then people are just doing it to go through the motions and not really enjoying it, like in ancient Egypt, the first great pyramid was better than the second. The second was better than the third. I think it's because for the first great pyramid, people were excited about like, Oh, that's cool. We're going to build a pyramid. And then they built it, and they're like, Oh man, another pyramid. But that was all they knew how to do.So I'm just trying to triangulate this whole idea of why society starts to feel less meaningful as it goes on longer.Leafbox:Do you think other civilizations have the same decadence of collapse, like Asian or Russian or Middle Eastern or developing?Ran:Yeah. I think the same dynamic happens all over the world. I don't think this is uniquely a Western problem. It is a modern problem and there's never been so much complexity as there is right now. And just so much ... so many things we have to keep track of, and not all that stuff is going to be fun. And so it's going to be tedious, but I don't think this is uniquely Western at all. I think it's just modern. It has to do with the ... humans are always going to try, humans have been trying a lot of things that we've never tried before and we tend to mess it up and try, do it the wrong way a bunch of times until we get it right. That's happening right now all over the world with the internet and social media and lots of technologies that we haven't worked out how to work them well yet we're working them in a way that's not satisfying.Leafbox:So do you know who Balaji is? He's that South Indian American kind of venture capitalist, philosopher, writer, Bitcoin guy. And he's modeled the future based on what he considers three contemporary forces, that being what he calls the CCP model, which is the Chinese kind of authoritarian state versus what he calls the NYT model, New York times, future model, where it's kind of a progressive eco kind of authoritative state, versus the BTC model, which is the Bitcoin kind of decentralized, utopian, anarchistic model. Peter Thiel also has a similar model, but he calls it sharia law versus the CCP model, versus eco hyper kind of ... progressivism, like European, or ...I'm curious if you're in Seattle and Washington, and you're kind of worried about collapse, what's your future image of what is going to collapse and what's the future? Is it a Mad Max image? Is it a CCP kind of China image? Sharia law image? I'm just curious what you think. Use the term "long emergency," kind of the long slow collapse, but I'm curious what you see the future as.Ran:Well, I have to break it down into different things. I don't ... and one of those things is technology, and another one of those things is the economy. And if I could just start with those, I think economic collapse is inevitable and there's going to be ... the economy we've got is based on perpetual growth, exponential growth, and there's no way we can keep having exponential growth. I think we're probably actually already done with the age of exponential growth and they're just kind of counting things that they shouldn't count to try to argue that ... economists are trying to create the illusion that we still have exponential growth and we don't. But we're going to have to figure out a way to live without that. So there's going to be all kinds of economic troubles.And technology, my latest thinking on that is it's not going to be monolithic or global. It's going to be different everywhere. There's going to be really advanced ... I mean, technological innovations and ventures are going to continue. There's going to be lots of cool stuff and materials, and lots of questionable stuff, and AI, I mean, it's exciting stuff, but dangerous stuff. There's going to be lots of cool technological stuff and dangerous technological stuff continue to happen all through this. But in other places it's going to totally go to hell. There might be some neighborhoods that are Mad Max-like, but it's not going to be on a global scale.Yeah, that's all I can think of right now. I mean, I don't really know much about China at all. It's such a big subject that I haven't really looked into it, but they're going to be in trouble because their system is also based on perpetual growth, and Americans continue to buy more things than the Chinese are making and they have their own troubles with the limits of authoritarianism.Leafbox:You ... going to limits of authoritarianism. I used to be more of a fan of the concept of UBI, but I think the whole last two years of COVID have made me very nervous about UBI, and the potential of UBI being connected to state requirements. I'm just curious if you have any kind of fears of UBI being limited to authoritarian aspects?Ran:I don't think ... the best thing would be not to have a UBI, but just have everything necessary be free, but that's really hard to pull off in practice. So I think I see the UBI as a transition from more of more of a top-down economy to more of a bottom-up economy where people can ... if people's basic needs are taken care of, then they can work more for quality of life and less for money. But yeah, I-Leafbox:Ran, my fear is let's say you live in Singapore, a modern technocratic state, and you get your UBI, a thousand Singaporean dollars a month, and then they start requiring you, if you didn't get the latest booster, Oh, we saw you spit on the ground once.Ran:Oh, yeah.Leafbox:There's a lot of carrots and sticks associated with the UBI.Ran:Then it's not unconditional, is it? Then it's a conditional basic income and that's not good. It's got to be something everyone gets, I think.Leafbox:So your definition is unconditional. I didn't hear that.Ran:Yeah, tha
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