Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

830 Episodes

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Episode 844: Autumn McAlpin and Vienna Boyes, Powerful New Documentary: “Sanctuary”

2025-10-2101:08:31

My friend Autumn McAlpin (co-director and mother of two queer sons) and Vienna Boyes (co-director, mid 20s, queer) join us to share their stories and also their new feature length documentary called “Sanctuary”. Sanctuary—a must see—is a powerful documentary telling stories at the intersection of being a Latter-day Saint (and other Christian faiths) and being LGBTQ. I watched Sanctuary and was deeply moved hearing powerful stories/projects/efforts of queer people, parents, allies, and local church leaders. I learned so much and was deeply moved. I encourage everyone to watch Sanctuary (see show notes) and share with others. The film will be going on a screening tour in early 2026 before being released on streamers -- please follow the film's website and Instagram for screening announcements. Thank you, Autumn, and Vienna—and everyone involved with the documentary. You are making a huge difference in our community! Links: Sanctuary Web Site: https://sanctuarydoc.com/ Sanctuary Instagram: @sanctuarydocfilm Vienna's Instagram: @indigothestudio Autumn's Instagram: @autumnmcalpin Spencer’s Song: https://open.spotify.com/track/2qKXdi4mxZ0rXGoxJ6jlCF

Episode 843: Bryson Lind, Gay Latter-Day Saint, Therapist Perspective to Finding Healing and Hope

2025-10-1501:31:45

My friend Bryson Lind (active gay Latter-day Saint, mid 30’s) joins us to discuss his new therapy practice in Utah (Aletheia Counseling) and important topics he helps clients (LGBTQ and straight) solve including: * Overcoming unwanted behaviors * Reconstructing a relationship with the Divine * Honoring everyone’s path * Trusting our Light of Christ/Inner Compass * Navigating relationships with parents and leaders * Developing self-confidence and patience If you are looking for a therapist (or insights from a therapist to help you—or to be a better ally for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints), this is a must listen podcast. Bryson’s brings his lived experience, clinical training, and 5 years of clinical practice together to offer powerful solutions and principles. I was so moved listening to Bryson and so grateful to have him back on the podcast. Thank you, Bryson. You are a good man doing great work in our community. Links: Bryson’s e-mail: bryson@aletheiacounselingtherapy.com Bryson’s Work Phone: 385-442-9721 Bryson’s earlier podcast: https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-588-bryson-lind-rm-byu-grad-gay-clinical-mental-health-counselor Bryson’s Psychology Today profile: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/bryson-garrett-lind-provo-ut/1090307

Episode 842: Rob Metcalf: New Album “The Road Trip”

2025-08-3101:31:23

My friend Rob Metalf (married father of two, age 33) joins us to share his journey with his mental health (OCD/anxiety) and his physical health (Ankylosing spondylitis—or AS). Rob (guitar player and songwriter) has formed a band (TOWN!) and is releasing an album (The Road Trip) that captures many of his life experiences. The first song (Forever—see show notes) is a song about his anxiety. In the podcast, Rob talks about other songs that on the album talking about important and sensitive subjects (suicide, relationship with the Church, Alzheimer's). In the podcast, Rob shares his journey with AS (undiagnosed for a long time) and how it took him from an avid outdoorsman to—on his worse days—bedridden. Rob talks about his journey to find a diagnosis and the right medication to get him in a better spot—and all the people that helped him along the way. Rob is honest about feeling angry/abandon by God and how we can better support people with long-term health challenges. Rob is one of my heroes. He is a survivor and now using his gifts to help others through sharing his story and his music. I encourage you to listen to and share this podcast and his music. Thank you, Rob, for being on the podcast. You are a good man. Links: Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/track/5B6F6RaBY79SLmTIZvOzLs?si=495f1a71eacd480e&nd=1&dlsi=cc0b82d21bb24d6e Apple Music: https://music.apple.com/us/album/forever/1826704391?i=1826704454 Our Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/abandcalledtown/

Episode 841: Richard Ostler: YSA Ward Talk

2025-08-2723:56

Talk given in our YSA Ward on the character of our Heavenly Parents and Jesus—and how that brings us peace, healing, and hope. Focused on seven concepts: 1) Our Heavenly Parents love all Their children 2) We have to believe/know we are acceptable to God. That we are created as intended. That no one is a mistake 3) Zion isn’t sameness 4) Jesus loves to forgive 5) Whole and complete now 6) Don’t feel you are behind 7) Throw out the dating checklist Links: Seven Tips for Overcoming Porn Use: www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/10/young-adults/7-tips-for-overcoming-pornography-use How the Savior’s Healing Applies to Repenting from Sexual Sin: www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/08/young-adults/how-the-saviors-healing-power-applies-to-repenting-from-sexual-sin

Episode 840: Aaron and Julie Bujnowski: New Book “Navigating to Jesus: A Journey of Faith”

2025-08-2351:37

My friends Aaron and Julie Bujnowski (married parents of two; living North of Dallas, Texas, active Latter-day Saints) join us to talk about their new book “Navigating to Jesus: A Journey of Faith.” In this important 10-chapter book, Aaron and Julie share many of their own difficult/wounding experiences (both in and out of the Church), and their path forward to healing and staying in the Church is Jesus. Thank you, Aaron and Julie, for opening up your hearts in writing this needed book and being on the podcast. I am grateful for your courage to talk about some of your difficult life experiences, and “navigating to Jesus” is the answer. I encourage everyone to check out your book! Links: Amazon: https://a.co/d/cUw0Y09 Cedar Fort: https://www.cedarfort.com/products/navigating-to-jesus-a-journey-of-faith?sca_ref=2861413.ytmX5gv94t Instagram: @navigatingtojesus Earlier episode on Listen, Learn, and Love (episode 647): soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-647-aaron-and-julie-bujnowski-new-book-discovering-your-temple-insights

Episode 839: Jessica Frew, Podcaster, Author, New Book “Shove Your Shoulds”

2025-08-1444:17

My friend Jessica Frew (life coach, former husband is gay and still “part of the family”, married mother of three) joins us to share her story of her husband coming out as gay and that marriage ending—and still staying close as they co-parent their daughter. Jessica also talks about her important new book called “Shove Your Shoulds” which focuses on healthier boundaries, improved self-image, and deeper acceptance of ourselves and others. Jessica writes the book from her own experiences and from her work as a life coach. I am grateful for Jessica’s voice on acceptance and understanding in our community—and encourage everyone to check out her new book (currently in presale—release date of Sept 12, 2025). Thank you, Jessica, for being on the podcast. You are awesome. Links: Book website: https://shoveyourshoulds.com/ Jessica on Instagram: @heyjessicafrew Jessica’s podcast (Husband In Law): podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/husband-in-law/id1464470280 Jessica’s earlier episode on Listen, Learn, and Love (episode 217): https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-217-jessica-and-matt-frew-active-lds-and-steve-stoddard-jessicas-gay-former-husband

Episode 837: Darren Parry, New Book, “Tending the Sacred: How Indigenous Wisdom will Save the World”

2025-07-0401:06:37

My friend Darren Parry (Shoshone Leader, Adjust Professor at Utah State and University of Utah, Author) joins us to talk about his new book called “Tending the Sacred: How Indigenous Wisdom will Save the World” which talks about values from the lens of our Indigenous friends to help understand and solve today’s problems. Darren talks about his own history (including his ancestors) using real life examples on how “Indigenous Wisdom” helps see and solve problems bringing us together as the same human family. I am deeply moved by Darren’s insights/soft heart and work to build bridges. I’m honored to have served as Darren’s companion during our missions in England 45 years ago as I had the chance to see Darren’s love for the people of England (and love for me—his new junior companion). I encourage everyone to reach Darren’s book—for timeless values to help bring us together. Thank you to our friends at BCC Press for publishing Darren’s book. Thank you, Darren, for being on the podcast and your needed work in our world! Links: Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1961471248 Darren’s FB: https://www.facebook.com/darren.parry.7

Episode 836: McArthur Krishna and Anne Pimentel, New Book, “Changemakers: Women Who Bolding Built Zion”

2025-06-1601:09:07

My friends McArthur Krishna and Anne Pimentel (authors, BYU grads, advocates for those on the margins) join us to talk about their important new book (at Deseret Book and Amazon) called “Changemakers: Women Who Bolding Built Zion” The podcast/book covers important topics: How revelation is “scattered” How women led changing the Church Institution with Primary and Relief Society How most of the change we can impact is in our local area around culture Anne’s racial awakening—and her desire to help people of other races feel belonging The “Back Yard Principle” Supporting those who leave the church Why McArthur and Anne (knowing all the complicated issues) stay in the Church Why McArthur hopes the Church her daughters are raised in is different than the Church she was raised in—and how we should embrace change Importance of personal authority If you are looking to improve church culture to better create Zion so more feel welcome, I encourage you to read/share this book. It has real-life stories and perspectives/principles to help each of us. I wish I had read a book like this a long time ago. I encourage everyone to listen to the podcast, read the book—and share with others. Thank you, McArthur and Anne, for your needed work in our community. Honored to have you on the podcast! Links: Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/1560855185 Deseret Book: www.deseretbook.com/product/6085124.html McArthur IG: @mcarthurkrishna_creates McArthur FB: www.facebook.com/mcarthur.mcarthurfreeranger Heavenly Mother Matters IG: @heavenlymothermatters Anne IG: @the.vision.beautiful James Jones Online Course: btbacademy.thinkific.com/courses/lds-anti-racism-101-abandoning-attitudes-and-actions-of-prejudice Chapter on How We Should Treat People Who Leave the Church: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/zkupzyte3lqqtxla6q9y1/Chapter-4-How-Should-We-Treat-Those-Who-Leave-the-Church.pdf?rlkey=w00hdkyywo5m9dyg1uwscqbxm&dl=0

Episode 835: Shirley Washenko and Sage Williams, New Book: “Healing after Sexual Abuse”

2025-06-1101:21:09

My friends Shirley Washenko (sexual abuse survivor/advocate) and Sage Williams (MSc, RN, long-time advocate) joins us to talk about their new, groundbreaking and needed book (published by Deseret Book) called “Healing after Sexual Abuse, A Latter-day Saint Perspective”. The book has these powerful chapters: 1) Establishing Identity 2) Uncovering Wounds 3) Embracing Agency 4) Differentiating Healing Journeys 5) Responding to Anger with Integrity 6) The Core: Connection 7) It Takes “an Angel” to Speak the Truth 8) Grief: Linking, Past Present, and Future 9) Forgiveness in a New Light 10) The Healing Journey This is one of the finest podcasts we’ve done on healing after sexual abuse. Shirley and Sage (from their respective experiences) bring new, impactful, and practical insights to help heal from sexual abuse. The book will help sexual abuse survivors and also the rest of us as we learn better tools to help them. I encourage everyone to listen to the podcast, read the book—and share with others. Thank you, Shirley and Sage, for your life-saving work to bring hope and healing. You are two of my heroes. Honored to have you on the podcast! Links: Web Site: www.healingaftersexualabuse.com/ Deseret Book: www.deseretbook.com/product/P6078641.html Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/1639934219

Episode 834: Ashli Carnicelli, Trina Caudle, McArthur Krishna: New Book about Heavenly Mother

2025-06-0301:11:131

My friends Ashli Carnicelli, Trina Caudle, and McArthur Krishna join us to talk about their new book “Mother in Heaven: A Gospel Topics Essay Study Guide.” The book is exactly what the title says: a study guide for the Church's Gospel Topics essay on Heavenly Mother. The book authors talk about the spiritual benefits in our lives of learning about the doctrine of Heavenly Mother and why She matters. This book is aligned with official Church statements and teachings about the doctrine of Heavenly Mother. The authors hope that it helps people seeking our Mother in Heaven to spiritually connect with Her so She is real, intentional, and active in our lives and in Church conversations. Thank you, Ashli, Trina and McArthur, for your needed work. I was deeply moved by your insights and good hearts. I encourage everyone to read this book. Links: Mother in Heaven Study Guide: www.amazon.com/dp/1734228725 Cherish 1: The Joy of Our Mother in Heaven: www.amazon.com/dp/1948218879 Cherish 2: The Love of Our Mother in Heaven: www.amazon.com/dp/1734228733 A Girl's Guide to Heavenly Mother: www.deseretbook.com/product/5258047.html A Boy's Guide to Heavenly Mother: www.deseretbook.com/product/5258052.html Combined IG account: @heavenlymothermatters Personal IG accounts: @ashlicarnicelli @libraryhouseediting @mcarthurkrishna_creates Library House Editing page with links to the gospel topics essay footnotes and some other resources: https://libraryhouseediting.com/?page_id=741

Episode 833: Isaac Durfey, Black/Gay Latter-day Saint, Super Brave

2025-05-2901:14:14

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Isaac Durfey (lives in Utah County, Age 34, Adopted, Active Latter-day Saint) bravely joins us to share his story which includes: * Being bullied * Being suicidal * Working through pornography * Convicted of being a sex offender and spending 4.5 years in prison * Leaving prison—what he learned, why he isn’t going back, finding hope * Accepting he is gay—but doesn’t define him * Talented musician * Great/supportive parents * Role of friends to help him feel he is loved and needed * Great YSA Wards * Hopes for his future including the Melchizedek Priesthood and Temple Endowment Thank you, Isaac, for your courage to come on the podcast and share your story—stories like yours help others find hope. Thanks for helping all understand our Heavenly Parents love all of us and how the Gospel of Jesus Christ gives hope, heals and helps us move forward. You are a good man. Links: Isaac on Instagram: @durfsmurf25

Episode 832: Lilly MacKenzie, Transgender BYU Student

2025-05-2455:00

My friend Lilly MacKenzie (who was on Episode 765) joins us to update listeners on her journey—including her spiritual journey (which includes more about her purpose, her belief in the Church, and her mission to help others). Lilly also talks about how the August 2024 transgender handbooks updates negatively impacted her—and how/why she continues to be a deeply committed and believing Latter-day Saint. She also talks about the support/support groups that help her. And she talks about how her emotional health is so much better since transitioning. Thank you, Lilly, for being on the podcast. You are brave. You are helping so many. Links: June 2025 Gather Conference: www.gather-conference.com/ Lilly’s earlier episode (765): podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-765-lilly-mackenzie-transgender-latter-day/id1347971725?i=1000661805297

Episode 831: Aiden Kelly (Transgender Man) and Annalee Kelly (His Supportive LDS Mother)

2025-05-2058:04

My friend Aiden Kelly (he/him, trans man, age 23, future in theatre) and my friend Annalee Kelly (married mother of 4, RM, active LDS, from Idaho Falls) join us to share their story. Aiden starts and talks about: * Immense pain of gender dysphoria * Writing in his journal—and sharing that journal entry with his mother as a way to come out as a boy * Knowing sharing his pain with others would be key to getting help and making his future possible * How hormone treatment and top surgery ended the pain and have him hope * Parents support * Glad he is alive. Has hope and a future. * Advice to others who are suicidal/have no hope. Annalee then shares about: * The long-term hatred Aiden had for his body (hair pulling, pounding on his chest, etc) * Asking advice from his Bishop (good experience) * Had to put Aiden’s life ahead of my original dreams/hopes * Generally positive ward and family support * Starting Open Arms of Idaho * Pain of the August 2024 transgender handbook policy update * “Aiden is a masterpiece” * Aiden’s Father support Aiden is one of my heroes—a brave, talented, a good man—with a wonderful future. I’m glad you are alive Aiden and thank you for your courage to share your story. You give hope to others. And thank you Annalee for helping us know we can love and support our LGBTQ friends and family—and how that is part of responsibility as Latter-day Saints and followers of Jesus. Thank you for all the work you and your team is doing in the Idaho Falls area to bring more love and understanding. You are all some of my heroes. You are a beautiful family. And your story will help so many. Links: Open Arms of Idaho: openarmsidaho.org/ Open Arms of Idaho Instagram: @openarmsidaho Open Arms of Idaho Facebook: www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100089047401155

Episode 830: Nikki Andreasky, Non-Binary/Trans Latter-day Saint, Super Brave

2025-05-1501:02:47

My friend Nikki Andreasky (BYU-I grad, lives in AZ, they/them) joins us to share their story including: * Long-term gender dysphoria/chest dysphoria—and prayerful decision to have top surgery * Love of the temple * Learning of the handbook changes (Aug 2024) for transgender members weeks before the surgery leading to feelings of “being stabbed in the gut”, “betrayed” and “really hurt” * Meeting with local leaders * Proceeding with the top surgery—feelings of gender euphoria Pain of not being able to attend the temple and no chance of temple sealing * How North Star gave them a spiritual boost * Why they stay in the Church * Supportive mothers—grandma’s scriptures Nikki is one of my heroes—for their spiritual/emotional maturity and navigating an incredible complex road as a non-binary Latter-day Saint. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this episode so we can better understand, love and support non-binary/transgender Latter-day Saints. I believe they are needed members of the Body of Christ. Thank you for being on the podcast, Nikki. You are awesome. Links: North Star Voices of Hope: www.northstarsaints.org/voh-nikki-2022 Earlier Listen Learn and Love Podcast: soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-320-lynsie-andreasky-active-lds-asexual-aromantic-and-gender-queer/sets Nikki’s Tic Tok: www.tiktok.com/@scattering_sunshine?_t=ZT-8w1g82Dlqsl&_r=1 Nikki’s Facebook: www.facebook.com/share/16HB8rwVrQ/?mibextid=wwXIfr

Episode 829: Jenn Curtis, New North Star President, Powerful Story

2025-05-1001:07:49

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Jenn Curtis (late 40s, lives in California, experiences same-sex attraction) joins us to share her powerful story out of a desire to help others including: * Sexual assault survivor which led to unhealthy coping behaviors and immense shame * Falsely concluding “God is disappointed in me” * Falsely concluding (at age 17) that death would be a better option * Feeling unlovable and that “no one could love the real me” * Finding more hope—but two subsequent decades of living in a “form of internal hell” * Powerful spiritual experience where God told her she is a “bullfighter” * Honest about sexual orientation with God, herself, and husband * Helpful friends—part of the process to remove shame * As friends loved/accepted her, Jenn considered “I might be lovable—and God may love me too” * My story is a “beautiful love story” * Finding joy * Powerful EFY experience * North Star This is a super-powerful, spiritual, and vulnerable podcast providing principles to help us better understand God’s love, how shame has no place in the Gospel, and how Jesus helps heal us. If you are in a hard spot, please listen to Jenn’s story. It will give you more hope. And if you are looking to better support our SSA/LGBTQ friends, please listen and share Jenn’s podcast. Thank you for being on the podcast, Jenn! You are so brave—you are bullfighter—and your courage is helping so many! Links: youtube.com/@LatterdayWomenWarriors https://www.northstarsaints.org/voh-jenn www.youtube.com/@TheApocrypharules www.northstarsaints.org/voices-of-hope-profiles North Star: www.northstarsaints.org/ Jenn’s Facebook: www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100007513065761

Episode 828: Sharlee Mullins Glenn, New Book “Brighter and Brighter Until the Perfect Day”

2025-05-0601:00:04

My friend Sharlee Mullins Glenn (noted author, former adjunct faculty at BYU, committed Latter-day Saint, married mother of 5, founder and former Executive Director of MWEG) joins us to talk about her important and groundbreaking new book, an expansive epic poem full of imagination and possibilities, centering the feminine divine. In the words of Fiona Givens, Sharlee’s epic poem “is an ambitious and beautiful rendering of Latter-day Saint beliefs and yearnings regarding the feminine divine, the ethos of existence, and the centrality of agency, relationships and love.” Some of the ideas Sharlee shared include: 1) Her book is fiction--a blending of theology, science, and imagination 2) It is an offering of imagination, and does not purport to set forth doctrine 3) Imagination is a spiritual gift and reflects God's divine nature 4)The inclusion of the feminine divine was driven by two burning questions: a. Where are the women in the grand, ancient story of our beginnings, and b. What good is a doctrine if we never speak of it or seek greater light and knowledge concerning it? 5) Her hope is that her "offering of imagination" will prompt others to examine the boundaries of their own paradigms and consider new possibilities 6) Heavenly Mother “will be unveiled again” This is a unique and insightful podcast focused on a book (which is a beautiful poem) that is a reimagining of the entire scope of existence, centering the feminine divine and the preeminence of love. I learned so much from Sharlee and encourage our listeners to read her book and share it with others. Links: Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/1961471205/ Barnes and Noble: www.barnesandnoble.com/w/1147162041

Episode 827: Sara Sumsion, Painful Church Experiences, Why She Stays, Mother’s Day Lesson Insights

2025-05-0201:10:10

My friend Sara Sumsion (RM, Age 30, YSA ward leader, getting a master’s degree in marriage and family therapy) joins us to share her unique story. Sara starts with her good father’s decision to leave the Church and her initial judgements about his decision. She then shares her difficult mission experience including spiritual abuse that nearly broke her and led to her considering leaving the Church. Sara talks about finding the grey and her intentional decision to stay in the Church, her reconstructed testimony, and her desire to help others find hope and healing. Sara talks about her road to become a vocal LGBTQ Ally including her Instagram post of her non-binary friend. Sara talks about helping everyone feel welcome in their YSA ward and also practicing boundaries/good communication when interacting with less active members. Sara concludes with her Mother’s Day lesson including a focus on Heavenly Mother and helping all women feel good and welcome (regardless of their current status or feelings regarding motherhood). If you are working to stay in the Church, Sara’s journey may help you. And if you are looking for more insights about how to teach/organize a positive meeting on Mother’s Day, Sara suggestions may help you. And if you are looking to create a safer place in your Ward, Sara’s story may help you. Thank you, Sara, for your work to create Zion. I learned so much from you. You give me hope for the future of our Church and world. I see the example of Jesus reflected in your ministry. Honored to have you on the podcast! Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sara.sumsion IG: @sar_assumption/

Episode 826: Susan Hinckley and Cynthia Winward, New Book: “At Last She Said It”

2025-04-2801:21:37

My dear friends, Susan Hinckley and Cynthia Winward, (co-founders of the “At Last She Said It Project” which includes their groundbreaking podcast—with over 200 episodes and 2+ million downloads) join us to talk about their new book. Their book (published by Signature Books) invites readers to consider new perspectives, be open to changing our minds, and how growth can be uncomfortable—and how this leads to helping more fellow Latter-day Saints feel valued, welcome and how to have more belonging. The book helps us better understand patriarchy within the church and how this can cause pain for both women and men—and what we can do in our area of influence to improve. The book also addresses many other topics within the church to help us build Zion including: Discipling Obedience Fear Repentance Worthiness Cynthia's Personal Essay: “Works for Me” Susan's Personal Essay: “Metamorphosis” Speaking Up Why I Wear a Cross I’ve learned so much from these two good women about better ministering to others. I wish their podcast and book existed decades ago—it would have helped me be a better husband, father, church member—and better lift (versus sometimes add) to the burdens of others. I encourage everyone to read/share their book. Thank you, Susan and Cynthia. You two are awesome. Links: Book and podcast: atlastshesaidit.org/

Episode 825: Elder Jax Smith, Current Missionary, Gay Latter-day Saint

2025-04-2501:07:30

My friend Elder Jax Smith (multi-racial, from Highland Utah, Age 25) joins us to bravely share his story: Middle school: “My personal hell” Coming out to older siblings Suicidal ideation, hospitalization, “choosing to stay” Decision to serve a mission/called to Alabama Birmingham Reason for ending his mission and leaving the Church Role of good people (like Elder Jenkins) to help him return to Church Difficult YSA experience attending with his boyfriend—left the Church for a second time Focusing on Jesus and attending Baptist Church Bishop’s (also his uncle) invitation to attend his YSA Ward Calling that led him to full activity, becoming a temple worker, and going back on a mission Others (like Elder Wright and Brother Monson) that helped him accept himself and feel like he belonged Navigating church generated pain/trauma/difficult experiences Powerful testimony of Jesus Christ and His power to heal This is another super powerful/brave podcast from a remarkable Latter-day Saint. Thank you Elder Jax Smith for being on the podcast. You are a remarkable disciple of Christ, and your story helps others walking difficult roads—and it helps the rest of us have more insights to help everyone feel like the belong and better create Zion. You are a good man! Links: Jax Smith Facebook: www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61556810127958 Jax Smith Instagram: @smith_3_55_

Episode 824: Leon Crandell, Married Father of 8, Gay Latter-day Saint

2025-04-2001:18:351

My friend Leon Crandell (lives in Snowflake AZ, cosmetologist, Brazil RM) joins us to bravely share his story: Survivor of sexual abuse Turning to substance abuse to deal with/escape the shame of sexual abuse Later abused by a doctor on his mission—and the shame of wondering why me Concluding being a victim of sexual abuse isn’t why he is gay Getting married (married for 27 years) and not really addressing his sexual orientation Gradually opening up to his wife—and their road to stay in their marriage and the Church Finding community of others walking this road Asking Heavenly Father “What do you think of me”? Super helpful Powerful (and healing) experience in a conversation with Jesus Kurt Francom’s impactful book “Is God Disappointed in Me” Hope instead of shame/fear This is a super powerful, vulnerable, and insightful podcast to help listeners see the role of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ to help us find more hope/peace in our lives—and how our unique differences help us reach others—helping to create Zion. You are super brave Leon. Your courage to be honest gives hope to others. You are a good man! Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Leon’s podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/coming-untwo-christ/id1752406845 Leon’s webpage: cominguntwochrist.com/ Leon on Facebook: www.facebook.com/leon.crandell Leon on Instagram: @cominguntwochrist Kurt Francom’s book: www.amazon.com/dp/B0CT67RS86 Dr Robinson: www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9jO9iMbm5U

Comments (18)

Cherilyn Cox

I love what you said about the Christian agenda! Your positive attitude towards everyone who relates and everyone who doesn't is wonderful.

Jul 15th

Lilly, I'm so glad to hear your story. I especially liked how you shared things in the order you thought of them. Life doesn't happen logically, so the way you shared it all was just right. I'm proud of you for finding your truth and letting yourself become that person as you discover what that means. Thanks for helping me understand more. It means a lot.

Wow. That explains a lot! Thank you.

Jun 18th

This is such an excellent episode! I especially love what they said about the wheat and the tares. I had never thought of it that way, but it really clicked and gave me some peace and some courage. All of what you shared was beautiful. Thank you so much.

Apr 8th

This is a truly enlightening podcast! Thanks to you both, Brother Grant and Brother Ostler. Can you please share the quote from George Q. Cannon, or tell us where to find it?

Aug 18th

Patti Ashworth

GREAT podcast, not sure it's enough to keep me "in". I take it one step further...a liberal WOMAN. Brother Grant hasn't experienced the perspective of marginalized women in the church, being a liberal just amps up the feelings of worthlessness as a woman in the patriarchy.

Aug 16th

I came looking for Kris, expecting that one of your 500 podcasts would likely have been with them, and I was right. I never really knew a lot about them before their tragic passing, but I'm glad I could learn more here. Thanks for everything you do, Papa Ostler! ❤️

Feb 1st

davidaauk3

what an amazing podcast. thank you so much for this. Great to listen to.

Nov 16th

Blaire, you are delightful! I love how excited you are to help us all learn and understand. All questions are welcome and nothing is looked down on. Thanks for sharing your insight and making it easier for us to support our LGBTQ+ siblings!

Apr 25th

This is wonderful! I grew up in Eastern Idaho, which is in many ways a spiritual and cultural extension of Utah. Over the last few I've tried to better understand what it's like to be marginalized, and this is especially helpful because it talks about what that's like in the Rocky Mountain area with the LDS factor as well. Thanks, Josianne!

Sep 10th

Thank you so much, sisters, for sharing this! I will go to your website soon. I just wanted to share something I hadn't thought of in probably a quarter century, give or take. There was a lady a companion and I talked to on my mission who was more argumentative than was good to stick around for, and my companion and I were about to leave, but this lady said that before we left there was one more thing she wanted to share. It was a song. I don't remember if she sang it or played it for us, but I do remember that it was referring to God as a woman. I was shocked at how strongly I felt the Spirit when someone sang like that. I thanked her very sincerely and then we left. What you shared here gives a new light to that experience. Thank you so much for all the work you have done! I look forward to learning more.

Jun 14th

Hey, Emma! This is a quick message from a Shelley native. 😁 I really appreciated your podcast. I've been facing depression and anxiety too, and wondered whether I would be able to serve a mission. I got to go, but I also came to realize that my most important mission was at home with friends and family. Thanks for sharing what you went through and reaching out to other people when you hope you can help them. ❤ Cherilyn

May 19th

Wow, Seth! I admire your maturity and your faith. You have had difficulties most of your peers -- and a good number of your seniors -- can't fully comprehend, and you have faced them head on. Because of my epilepsy, I wasn't sure I would be able to go on a mission either. And there are certain things in my patriarchal blessing that haven't and won't come to pass in this life either. I had never considered that Moroni might have depression. That's definitely possible or even probable. Ether 12:27 is a favorite scripture of mine also. Through it I've come to realize that my seizures, depression, anxiety and ADHD can not only be overcome -- though I recognize that they won't actually go away -- but it says they can even become strengths. I can't explain why or how, but I've seen that come true, and I expect it to continue. I have much more to learn, and I know it will partially come from them. Thanks again for your message! Love and best wishes to you! Cherilyn

May 16th

Heather Eaton

This podcast is a favorite. Thanks for all you do Papa Ostler. I loved hearing from Jimmy and his experiences, thanks for being a Christlike example.

Jan 12th

Reply (1)

Caitie Finley

Loved this podcast. And I have a love for John.

Oct 7th

Brandon Thomas

I think it was a mistake for you to say "turn to our heavenly parents." Christ suffered the will of the Father in all things, not "the parents."

Jun 17th

Jason Mathis

absolutely beautiful story. dying to share this with my Edlers quorem presidency. some much to learn here

Nov 20th

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