Main Justice

Last week’s fatal shooting of Charlie Kirk was deeply disturbing, and as Andrew establishes at the start, “murder is murder” and those responsible must be held to account. So Mary and Andrew begin with where the investigation stands and how the FBI has handled the case, as well as the lawsuit filed against FBI Director Kash Patel over alleged politically motivated firings at the Bureau. Then, co-editor-in-chief of Just Security, Ryan Goodman stops in to share his research around the end of “the presumption of regularity” in the Trump era, amid growing frustration from many lower courts. And lastly, Andrew and Mary dig into the latest twists and turns in the President’s attempt to fire Fed Governor Lisa Cook.A note to listeners: After today’s recording, Tyler Robinson was charged with felony aggravated murder, among other charges.Further reading:  Here is Ryan Goodman’s research in Just Security: The “Presumption of Regularity” in Trump Administration LitigationAnd a reminder: There are still tickets available for MSNBC Live – our second live community event featuring more than a dozen MSNBC hosts. The day-long event will be held on October 11th at Hammerstein Ballroom in Manhattan. To buy tickets visit msnbc.com/live25.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This episode begins with Mary and Andrew digesting the 2-1 decision from the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals halting the Trump administration’s ability to use the Alien Enemies Act to deport Venezuelan nationals accused of being members of Tren de Aragua. Andrew calls the administration’s recent arguments “outlandish” before moving to the questionable legality of the U.S. military’s deadly boat strike last week – an unprecedented action which left eleven dead. Next, they move to Monday’s Supreme Court decision undoing limits set by a lower court on how ICE conducts immigration raids. Plus, a federal judge issues a win for Harvard University on the topic of frozen and terminated funds. Further reading:  The 5th Circuit Court of Appeals’ ruling on Trump’s invocation of the Alien Enemies Act to deport VenezuelansAnd a reminder: tickets are on sale now for MSNBC Live – our second live community event featuring more than a dozen MSNBC hosts. The day-long event will be held on October 11th at Hammerstein Ballroom in Manhattan. To buy tickets visit msnbc.com/live25.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

After a Labor Day weekend that saw a judge halt the Trump administration's attempt to deport dozens of Guatemalan children already loaded onto airplanes, Andrew and Mary had planned to start their conversation there. But just this morning, Judge Charles Breyer ruled the administration cannot deploy U.S. military to carry out law enforcement operations, as this violates the Posse Comitatus Act. Andrew and Mary provide historical context for the act and walk us through the rationale of this latest ruling. Then, they take a beat on moves to oust two more Trump appointed U.S. Attorneys in California and Nevada who have yet to be congressionally approved. And last up, they review several big cases on tariffs, Lisa Cook, and cuts to foreign aid.Further reading:  Here is Judge Thomas T. Cullen’s opinion dismissing Trump’s lawsuit against Maryland federal judges.And here is Judge Charles Breyer’s ruling on the Posse Comitatus Act: Opinion granting injunctive reliefAnd a reminder: tickets are on sale now for MSNBC Live – our second live community event featuring more than a dozen MSNBC hosts. The day-long event will be held on October 11th at Hammerstein Ballroom in Manhattan. To buy tickets visit msnbc.com/live25.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

On Monday, after Kilmar Abrego Garcia was taken into ICE custody, Judge Paula Xinis temporarily barred the Trump administration from deporting him to Uganda. Mary and Andrew begin here, reminding listeners that the origin of his case stems from a mistake made by our government. Next, they detail the questionable nature of the FBI raid on former National Security Advisor John Bolton’s home and office before diving into some 30+ letters sent by Attorney General Pam Bondi to blue-leaning jurisdictions, with the aim of ending their sanctuary policies. Last up, Mary and Andrew drill down on Trump’s latest executive order related to a rapidly deployable National Guard unit, as he sharpens threats to send troops into more cities.Further reading: Trump’s Executive Order: ADDITIONAL MEASURES TO ADDRESS THE CRIME EMERGENCY IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIAGarrett Graff's piece Mary referred to: America Tips Into FascismAnd a reminder: tickets are on sale now for MSNBC Live – our second live community event featuring more than a dozen MSNBC hosts. The day-long event will be held on October 11th at Hammerstein Ballroom in Manhattan. To buy tickets visit msnbc.com/live25.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

It's been another wild week, after the D.C. Attorney General sued the government for attempting to install the head of the D.E.A. as D.C.’s emergency police commissioner. Following an emergency hearing, US Attorney General Pam Bondi backed down and re-wrote the directive. But Andrew and Mary highlight why that’s just the start: it’s no longer just the D.C. National Guard being deployed in the nation’s capital, National Guard units from five other red states are being sent to the city, making a complicated stew of who’s in charge and who has jurisdiction. Next, they weave this thread into last week's trial over whether California’s National Guard performed law enforcement operations in Los Angeles, a potential violation of The Posse Comitatus Act. And with Russia and Ukraine so much in the news, Andrew offers some reflections from the 2019 Special Counsel’s report that exposes Russia’s long-held goal of taking over the Donbas region. And last up, Andrew and Mary fill listeners in on two DC Circuit cases that have their attention: a decision allowing the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau to be dismantled and another that allows Trump to withhold billions in foreign aid.And a reminder: tickets are on sale now for MSNBC Live – our second live community event featuring more than a dozen MSNBC hosts. The day-long event will be held on October 11th at Hammerstein Ballroom in Manhattan. To buy tickets visit msnbc.com/live25.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

When “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength” we are living in an era of alternate facts. Mary and Andrew apply this Orwellian concept to what's happening this week, after President Trump cited section 740 of the Home Rule Act to federalize the DC police force and send in the national guard to the nation’s capital. They detail how the president was able to do this and why Congress will be the ultimate arbiter of this move. Then, they highlight some litigation befitting this theme, with Judge Breyer’s trial starting this week on the use of the national guard in Los Angeles, and some decisions including not to unseal grand jury testimony in the Ghislaine Maxwell case, plus an Appeals court blocking contempt proceedings in JGG. Last up, Andrew and Mary take a look at Judge Henderson’s opinion in the OMB case and why it deserves more attention than it’s received. Further reading: Here is President Trump’s letter to Congress citing section 740, courtesy of the New York Times.And some exciting news: tickets are on sale now for MSNBC Live – our second live community event featuring more than a dozen MSNBC hosts. The day-long event will be held on October 11th at Hammerstein Ballroom in Manhattan. To buy tickets visit msnbc.com/live25.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Accountability or weaponization? That's the question Andrew and Mary tackle in their 150th episode together, starting with the distraction of the Office of the Special Counsel's investigation into Jack Smith for possible Hatch Act violations. In other DOJ related matters, they give some context to the Trump administration’s continued battle to keep Alina Habba, a Trump ally, as New Jersey U.S. Attorney, just as The Legal Accountability Center filed bar complaints against lawyers who have represented Trump’s White House in court. In another sideshow, Andrew and Mary break down what to make of a report on the “Clinton Plan” emails, declassified amid the Epstein controversy. And last up, they detail the decision out of the 9th Circuit Court which upheld a pause on ICE raids in California.  Further Reading: Here is the piece Andrew and his colleague Ryan Goodman wrote for Just Security in October 2024: Refuting the Latest Baseless Attacks Against Special Counsel Jack SmithHere is the 9th Circuit Court decision on ICE Raids: Appeal from the United States District Court for the Central District of California And some exciting news: tickets are on sale now for MSNBC Live – our second live community event featuring more than a dozen MSNBC hosts. The day-long event will be held on October 11th at Hammerstein Ballroom in Manhattan. To buy tickets visit msnbc.com/live25.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

If it’s customary, it’s probably not happening in this Justice Department. Starting with the latest from the Epstein controversy, Andrew and Mary unpack what to make of the two days Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche spent interviewing Ghislaine Maxwell. This, after a Florida judge denied the release of Epstein grand jury transcripts last Wednesday.And in immigration related news, three decisions came through in the Kilmar Abrego Garcia saga, just as the first claim is filed against the U.S. over one man’s deportation to El Salvador without due process. Then, in an eye-popping move, Attorney General Pam Bondi’s office filed a misconduct complaint against Judge James Boasberg for “making improper public comments” about the President and his administration. And before wrapping up this week, Mary and Andrew give some context to the former J6 prosecutor who’s suing the administration over his abrupt firing.Further Reading: Here is the misconduct complaint filed against Judge Boasberg: Complaint Against United States District Court Chief Judge James E. BoasbergAnd some exciting news: tickets are on sale now for MSNBC Live – our second live community event featuring more than a dozen MSNBC hosts. The day-long event will be held on October 11th at Hammerstein Ballroom in Manhattan. To buy tickets visit msnbc.com/live25.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Pressured for transparency from all sides of the aisle, the Department of Justice made a surprising move to try and unseal grand jury materials from the Jeffery Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell cases. Andrew and Mary discuss why this move is so shocking and what it signifies. They also look at the latest sentencing for an ex-officer involved in the 2020 raid that killed Breonna Taylor and what a trial on behalf of international students and faculty detained for pro-Palestinian activism revealed about ICE’s practices. Finally, they unpack the DOJ’s firing of Maurene Comey and Attorney General Pam Bondi’s firing of a New Jersey attorney who replaced a long-term Trump ally.  Listener Note: This episode was recorded prior to the ruling from a Florida court that denied the requested grand jury materials in the Jeffery Epstein case. However, the DOJ’s other request related to a grand jury in the Southern District of New York remains pending.Further reading:Here is the op-ed written by Rümeysa Öztürk in the Tufts Daily about her time in a women’s ICE facility.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Following the emergence of new evidence from messages submitted by the Department of Justice's whistleblower, Erez Reuveni, Andrew and Mary discuss its potential implications for the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia and the confirmation process of Emil Bove III. They also examine a Southern California ruling to halt immigration stops based on race. On the other coast, they look at a temporary block of Trump's order restricting birthright citizenship—a case where Mary has particular expertise via her role in a related birthright citizenship case: CASA v. Trump. Finally, SCOTUS paves way for mass layoffs of federal workers, and DOJ opens investigations into former FBI Director James Comey and former CIA Director John Brennan.Listener Note: This podcast was recorded several hours before the Supreme Court decision allowing for the dismantling of the Department of Education. Andrew and Mary will discuss on next week's episode.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week’s episode begins with a Supreme Court decision to allow the deportation of eight migrants to South Sudan without due process, despite it not being their country of origin. And after a comparative review of the new beefed-up ICE budget and what it means for deportation operations moving forward, Andrew and Mary spotlightthe latest from Kilmar Abrego Garcia’s civil and criminal cases. Also not to be missed: the newly disclosed letters Attorney General Pam Bondi sent to tech firms assuring them they would not be penalized for supporting TikTok operations in the US, despite a federal ban. Plus: how a pardoned J6 defendant received a life sentence for plotting to kill the agents who investigated him, and what led to FBI agent Michael Feinberg’s forced resignation.Further reading: Here are the letters sent from Attorney General Pam Bondi to Google, Apple and Amazon, among others. And here is a write up from former FBI agent Michael Feinberg, explaining his coerced resignation. Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

After Friday’s Supreme Court ruling to limit nationwide injunctions, Mary and Andrew begin by breaking down what it means for future challenges to executive actions as they make their way through the courts, and what’s next for Mary’s birthright citizenship case. They also tackle the DHS lawsuit against all federal judges on the district court in Maryland, before reviewing the Justice Department’s plans to prioritize cases revoking citizenship—aka ‘denaturalizing’ US citizens. This, along with their discussion of ICE targeting migrant workers and using routine traffic stops to check legal status, shines a light on the legal limits of ICE’s tactics.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The United States entered the conflict between Israel and Iran this weekend after bombing three Iranian nuclear sites. Andrew and Mary start this week’s episode here, discussing the scope of presidential war powers and the norms of international law following the strikes. After, they shift focus to immigration, zeroing in on a whistleblower complaint from a former DOJ lawyer against Principal Deputy Attorney General Emil Bove among others, as well as the releases of Mahmoud Khalil and Kilmar Abrego Garcia. And after a nod to the Supreme Court’s decision on removing immigrants to countries other than their own, Mary and Andrew touch on the 9th Circuit decision allowing Trump to retain control of the California National Guard, and what happens next.Further reading: Here is the compliant from the Justice Department whistleblower (courtesy New York Times): Protected Whistleblower Disclosure of Erez Reuveni Regarding Violation of Laws, Rules & Regulations, Abuse of Authority, and Substantial and Specific Danger to Health and Safety at the Department of Justice.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Political violence is never OK. So after the horrible news out of Minnesota, Mary and Andrew begin with a breakdown of the federal charges against the man accused of murdering a Minnesota state lawmaker and her husband and attempting to murder several others.Next, they move to an explainer of an appeals court ruling that temporarily blocked a lower court decision ordering the control of the California National Guard back to the state, while tying in the scuffle during Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem’s press conference last week as Senator Alex Padilla was forcibly removed and handcuffed. And rounding out this episode, Andrew and Mary note Trump’s failed attempt to appeal the $5 million judgement in the E Jean Carroll case, and the arguments heard last week on his attempt to remove his NY state hush money case to a federal court.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Protests intensified in Los Angeles and around the country after the Trump administration stepped up ICE raids largely targeting immigrants working in service industries. And after Trump deployed the National Guard without any buy-in from the state, California sued. So what now? That’s where Andrew and Mary begin this week, parsing the legality of using the military domestically, and how responsibilities shift when the National Guard is federalized. The rest of this episode is focused on the intertwined news of Judge Boasberg’s sweeping decision to ensure due process for the Venezuelan immigrants deported to El Salvador, with Kilmar Abrego Garcia’s return to the US, as he faces charges of human smuggling in Tennessee.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Media coverage over the economic impact of President Trump’s tariffs has been robust,but not a ton of attention has been paid to the actual legality of them. So that's where Andrew and Mary begin, after two court decisions in the last week questioned the merits and where jurisdiction lies. Then they turn to the president's significant use of the pardon power to commute sentences and override convictions of some friends and allies, and what it says about maintaining a belief in blind justice. And after some great reporting from the New York Times, Mary and Adnrew detail some changes happening within Director Kash Patel’s FBI, as bureau leaders are taken down a peg and emphasis on public corruption is dialed back.Further reading: Here is the New York Times reporting concerning the FBI: Unease at F.B.I. Intensifies as Patel Ousts Top OfficialsWant to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Andrew and Mary launch this week’s episode by digging into the details on some of the latest acts of retribution coming out of the Trump administration as Trump targets Harvard, the Jenner & Block law firm gets a decision and Rep. LaMonica McIver gets charged with assault. Afterwards, they review a preliminary decision from the Supreme Court to stay a DC District Court’s injunction that paused the firing of Gwynne Wilcox from the National Labor Relations Board, as well as Cathy Harris from the MSPB governing board while they challenge their removals. And lastly, Andrew and Mary get listeners up to speed on the O.C.G. case and the DOJ’s continued defiance of Judge Murphy's TRO regarding extractions of migrants to countries they have no ties to.Further listening: HERE is a clip of Rep LaMonica McIver responding to the charges against her.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

With so many issues stemming from President Trump’s executive orders now before the Supreme Court, it’s tough to know where to begin. So Andrew and Mary start this week with the arguments heard last Thursday from Mary’s ICAP team on the courts issuing national injunctions in several birthright citizenship cases. They recap Thursday’s highlights and note the Justices' interest in getting to the merits of the birthright issue. Then, they talk through two SCOTUS decisions from Friday and Monday: one on the Trump administration using the Alien Enemies Act to ‘extract’ Venezuelan migrants, and the other on their attempt to revoke the protected status of Venezuelans. Last up, Andrew and Mary turn to the specifics of a few of the immigration removal cases, as hearings continue and the lack of due process continues to be challenged.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Stephen Miller’s got some ideas. So this week, Mary and Andrew start with a focus on his recent acknowledgement that the White House is considering suspending habeas corpus altogether for migrants. They talk about what that means, and the reality that it lacks any legal sniff test, which the Supreme Court agrees with. Then, they highlight what happens when due process works, after the release of Rumeysa Ozturk, a Tufts student who was detained by ICE over an opinion piece she wrote for the student newspaper. Next up, a significant decision from Judge Susan Illston out of California, putting a temporary hold on reducing the federal workforce. Mary and Andrew note what she held, including that the administration needs to follow procedure and get congressional buy in. And lastly, they preview the Supreme Court argument Mary’s ICAP team is bringing this Thursday on birthright citizenship- not on the merits per se, but on the issue of national injunctions. And a quick eye pop on Trump’s decision to swap out Ed Martin as the US Attorney for DC with yet another Fox News host, Jeanine Pirro.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Long established legal norms continue to be challenged by Trump’s Justice Department, leading Andrew and Mary to emphasize how the courts have grown increasingly frustrated with the administration's tactics. They begin with last Thursday’s ruling from Judge Rodriguez in Texas, that Trump was unjustified in using the Alien Enemies Act to deport Venezuelan migrants. After a review of what that means for his ‘extraction’ efforts, Andrew and Mary go deep on an assessment made public from the National Intelligence Council, that indicates despite Trump’s presidential proclamation evoking the Alien Enemies Act, intelligence officials do not see a strong link between the Venezuelan government and Tren de Aragua. And lastly this week, they look at the latest judicial pushback on Trump’s attempts to threaten law firms, after Judge Beryl Howell ruled against his targeting of Perkins Coie by executive order.Further reading: Here is the assessment from the National Intelligence Council on the relationship between the Maduro government and Tren de Aragua, courtesy of the New York Times.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.