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Mom & Mind

Author: Katayune Kaeni, Psy.D.

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Posptartum Depression is real. And it's only part of the story. We dig in to ALL of the stuff that no tells you about, but you NEED to know. Dr. Kat, Psychologist and specialist in perinatal mental health, interviews moms, dads, experts and advocates about how to cope, manage and recover from perinatal mood and anxiety disorders. We talk about postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety and SO MUCH MORE! We get real. We get honest. We put on our stigma crushing boots and address the realities of the transition to motherhood and parenthood. Learn about it before you find out about it the hard way! You don't have to suffer! www.momandmind.com
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October is Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month, and we are trying to honor each and every one of those losses. Each one has brought significant pain to many people, including grief that is most difficult to acknowledge and navigate. Today’s show focuses on one such loss that has led to the creation of a specific kind of support for thousands. Lindsey Henke is the founder and Executive Director of Pregnancy After Loss Support. She is a clinical social worker specializing as a reproductive mental health therapist with a focus on the grief and trauma that happens after a perinatal loss and the pregnancy that follows. She is also a writer, wife, and, most importantly, a mother to two beautiful daughters and one sweet boy. Tragically, her oldest daughter, Nora, was stillborn after a healthy full-term pregnancy in December 2012. Lindsey’s second daughter, Zoe, was born healthy and alive in March of 2014. Her writing about life after loss has been featured in Listen to Your Mother, Scary Mommy, Healthline, and The New York Times. Lindsey has had the honor of speaking all over the world on the topic of pregnancy after a previous perinatal loss, including at the 2020 Moms’ Maternal Mental Health Forum 2015, Pregnancy and Infant Death Alliance 2016 Conference, Postpartum Support International 2019 Conference, The 2019 Stillbirth Summit, and at The International Women’s Maternal Mental Health 2019 Conference in Paris. She is currently working on her first book. Show Highlights: How and why Lindsey started Pregnancy After Loss Support (PALS), an online support organization for the birth person who is experiencing pregnancy after loss How Lindsey had a stillborn daughter in 2012 after a full-term pregnancy---a devastating and heartbreaking experience How she relied on writing and psychotherapy to help her heal Lindsey’s second pregnancy with her daughter, Zoe, and how she made weekly posts as a blogger Lindsey found that there wasn’t a support space for those experiencing pregnancy after loss How the PALS group was formed and then blossomed into 15 groups for thousands of members How Lindsey digests the research in the field of pregnancy loss to meet the specific needs and wants of the community What’s unique about the experience of pregnancy after loss The insensitive comments that people make during a pregnancy after loss experience The amount of fear and anxiety that occur in pregnancy after loss The balance of grief, fear, and stress, along with joy and hope Knowing when the “expected anxiety” crosses over into the need to seek professional help Invalidating messages that may come from healthcare providers and family members The dance between choosing hope and holding onto fear The circles of grief and how we need to seek support The prevalence of postpartum depression and anxiety in subsequent pregnancies How friends and family can be supportive in validating the experience of the mother Why you should think about what you say and how you say it to someone who has had a pregnancy loss Other steps that family, friends, and healthcare providers can do to give additional support to moms with pregnancy after loss Resources: Pregnancy After Loss Support Facebook: Pregnancy After Loss Support Instagram Facebook: LindseyMHenke
Today’s show is another moving, personal story of the journey from pain to healing, and all that happens in the middle. My guest tells the story of how cultural challenges added yet another layer of complexity to her postpartum depression and anxiety experience. Esmeralda Cardenas is a bilingual Licensed Professional Counselor in San Antonio, Texas. She is the owner and provider at Pillars of Life Counseling. Besides being a mental health provider, Esmeralda is a wife and mother of two sons, ages 6 and 8, with both pregnancies bringing her postpartum depression and anxiety. After working with children in different settings for many years, Esmeralda became an advocate and provider for parents experiencing perinatal mood and anxiety disorders. She realized that she needed to own her story and overcome the many fears that came with it. Taking this step has allowed Esmeralda to serve moms and dads in her community with an effort to decrease stigma and help parents know that they are not alone. Show Highlights: The issues Esmeralda faced as an undocumented immigrant from Veracruz, Mexico Her first pregnancy, with no complications until the C-section delivery How Esmeralda was triggered with anxiety, pressure, and judgment from others because of the cultural stigma attached to not having a “natural birth” The symptoms of anxiety and depression, along with the guilt and shame How the pressures of new motherhood and a therapy practice led to Esmeralda’s struggles with rage and intrusive thoughts Why Esmeralda was terrified to let anyone know how she really felt How she finally shared with her husband what was really going on with her With her second pregnancy, two years later, she was much more anxious, but going back to work helped with the depression How the feelings piled up on Esmeralda How Esmeralda dug deeper into grace in owning and sharing her story---and redefined herself The challenges of being a working mom AND a stay-at-home mom Esmeralda’s advice for other moms The evolution we go through to become a happier parent in a better place Why there is hope for everyone, and no mom is ever as alone as she might feel Resources: Pillars Of Life Counseling Instagram: polcounseling Facebook: Pillars of Life Counseling
Today’s show is a personal story of postpartum anxiety and depression that led to a voluntary psychiatric hospital evaluation. My guest will share how she got to that point, along with the signs and symptoms that went unnoticed for a long time. We will also hear about her journey to healing and how she’s helping other moms now. I believe that hearing the details in others’ experiences can help us recognize these signs in ourselves and our loved ones. Celeste Chapko lives with her husband and three children in Northwest Indiana. She is the founder of Childbirth Melodies (soon to be the Northwest Indiana Center for Maternal Wellness), offering individual and group peer support and music therapy to moms dealing with postpartum depression and other perinatal mood and anxiety disorders. Celeste is a survivor of severe postpartum depression and anxiety and is passionate about supporting moms on their journey to wellness. She is also a volunteer state coordinator, online peer support group leader, and Climb Out of the Darkness leader for Postpartum Support International. Show Highlights: Celeste’s journey with postpartum anxiety and depression: she noticed rage and anxiety at seven months into her third pregnancy, but after the birth, she convinced herself that nothing was really wrong with her How intrusive thoughts convinced her that she needed help; her Ob prescribed Zoloft over the phone and Celeste began seeing a therapist How Celeste went through panic attacks and just “wasn’t functioning well with life” Why she called her husband one day to take her to the hospital’s psychiatric unit After five days in the psych unit, she left with four medications and a referral to see a psychiatrist The signs in Celeste’s first and second pregnancies that went unnoticed The guilt and shame that mother feel, which lead to increased anxiety Why Celeste refers to herself as “a recovering perfectionist” How Celeste’s anxiety and rage manifested themselves in her pregnancy with excessive worry and obsessive thoughts How Celeste knew she needed next-level care in the psych hospital The feelings of hopelessness with nowhere to turn The need for more perinatal psych units for moms How Celeste came into the work she does today on “the other side” How Celeste is more laid back, compassionate, and understanding to herself and others The potential for positive change with the right help and support How Celeste’s experience has changed how she is raising her children to know how to take care of themselves Celeste’s professional journey: music therapist, special education teacher, doula for music-assisted childbirth, and peer support group leader Celeste’s program, The SHARE Journey (Support, Hope, Assessment, Referral, and Education) and how it helps moms with peer support Celeste’s work with her Northwest Indiana Center for Maternal Wellness The difficult task of getting people connected to the resources they need Resources: Childbirth Melodies Facebook: Childbirth Melodies
Today’s show is an interesting look into how postpartum issues were dealt with, or not dealt with, in the past. We are looking from the perspective of a daughter who has been on a quest to discover the truth about her birth, her unusual childhood, and her mother’s illness. Nyna Giles is the author of The Bridesmaid’s Daughter, a deeply personal memoir about family, mental health, and revisiting the past. We’ll hear her perspective about growing up with a mother who had mental illness, and how she now knows that her mother had untreated postpartum psychosis. Back then, there was not much knowledge or support for mothers going through any perinatal crisis. We get to hear from Nyna’s perspective what it was like to grow up in that environment and what she reflected on as an adult that she shares through writing The Bridesmaid’s Daughter. Nyna is the youngest daughter of Carolyn Scott Reybold, a Ford model best known as one of Grace Kelly’s bridesmaids. Nyna has worked with leading media organizations and is the COO of Giles Communications. She’s an advocate for the mentally ill, traveling the globe to share her story, revealing the challenges brought on by her mother’s untreated mental illness and her own lost childhood and education. Nyna is a board member of NAMI Westchester and serves on the NAMI New York State Legislative Committee. She is also a volunteer with Postpartum Resource Center of NY. She lives in Westchester with her husband and has three children and three stepchildren. Show Highlights: How the book tells the story of Nyna’s mother’s untreated mental illness A summary of her mother’s glamorous life as a successful model in the 1940’s and 1950’s and best friend to Grace Kelly How her mother married, built a dream house on Long Island, and gave up her career to become a full-time mother to Nyna’s two older sisters How Nyna’s birth was traumatic because she was almost 11 lbs.! Her mother had to have her third C-section and a hysterectomy How Nyna’s father had an affair while she was an infant, and her mother had no family close by and no support Why Nyna had a lack of formal education, no friendships, and was trapped with her mother in a cycle of dysfunction The only diagnosis her mother ever received was paranoid schizophrenia in her 50’s How the change was evident in Nyna’s mom in pictures before and after Nyna’s birth As a child, Nyna never felt connected to or safe with her mom---even though she was with her all the time Nyna’s social anxiety as a teenager, and why she left home at age 14 Why mental illness was a topic that no one talked about back then Now Nyna’s father started staying away from home because he didn’t want to deal with his wife and her mental illness How Nyna’s mom gave away all her money and became homeless Why Nyna has to balance and limit the pain she feels from the past Nyna’s transition to motherhood with her three children Why Nyna felt compelled to get her school records What Nyna learned through her discovery in understanding her birth and what really happened to her mother The revelation Nyna learned about the sexual abuse of her mother by her stepfather How we can each help with mental health by engaging in real conversations Resources Mentioned: Find out more about the book and Nyna:  The Bridesmaid's Daughter Facebook: Nyna Giles Author Twitter: Nyna Giles Instagram: Nyna Giles Author
One aspect of postpartum depression and anxiety that doesn’t get much attention is the rage that comes along with these issues. People who experience this rage can feel overwhelmed and confused, and it can be a scary scenario. Today’s guest shares her story of how she came through postpartum depression, anxiety, and rage, and how she uses her healing process to help other moms today. Jen Gaskell is a quality professional who works full-time outside the home. She and her husband live near Milwaukee with their two daughters, ages 8 and 11. Jen used her writing and her blog to help navigate her journey through postpartum depression and anxiety. She was a former co-producer of Listen To Your Mother Milwaukee, where she was part of the inaugural Milwaukee cast telling her story of PPD. Jen has written for Postpartum Progress and was a member of their editorial team for three years. Jen was a Climb Out of the Darkness team leader for Milwaukee for four years. She helps lead a Facebook group of local moms who’ve been through postpartum mood disorders and recently became a PSI helpline volunteer. Show Highlights: How Jen struggled with postpartum depression and anxiety following the birth of her youngest child When she didn’t know who or where to turn to, she turned to Google to research her symptoms How she knew she needed to see someone but was afraid of having her kids taken away How Jen found a therapist and was able to get help quickly The signs in the beginning that told Jen that something was wrong The pressure Jen put on herself because of gestational diabetes and the details of managing the risks How her anxiety turned to irritability during her pregnancy and then spiraled into rage in the postpartum The feelings of irritability and rage that Jen noticed The key indicators that something was wrong How Jen learned about her triggers and when to take a break The guilt Jen felt for needing a break from her kids The internal pressure to be “on top of things” all the time How Jen learned to cope, especially journaling and learning to give herself grace How hard struggling moms work not to let others know the truth of how they feel How Jen became comfortable in sharing her story to help others The importance of normalizing the therapy process and the steps to get better Jen’s hopeful message to other moms: “It’s not you. Those negative thoughts are not who you are. There is so much support available, so reach out. This is a common condition, and it’s treatable. It won’t be like this forever.” Resources: Tranquila Mama Twitter and Instagram: @jenrenpody Facebook: Tranquila Mama Blog Listen To Your Mother on YouTube
Today’s show is a fascinating discussion about the law and postpartum psychosis. My guests helped usher a new law through the Illinois legislature, and the bill became law in January 2018. It’s the first criminal law in the nation to recognize the effects of postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis, so we’re digging into what it took to get the legislation passed and what steps you can take to get the law changed in your state. Dr. Susan Feingold is a licensed clinical psychologist, perinatal legal advocate, and author. She’s a member of the President’s Advisory Council and Postpartum Psychosis Task Force for Postpartum Support International. Susan wrote Happy Endings, New Beginnings: Navigating Postpartum Disorders, and has specialized for over 26 years in women’s mental health issues related to reproduction. She’s an advocate and expert witness involved in legislative efforts for women with postpartum depression on the state and national level and served as the President of the Board of Trustees for Depression After Delivery, Inc. Along with Barry Lewis, Susan won the 2018 Maternal Mental Health Innovation Award in Policy and Advocacy; she also won the 2016 Distinguished Alumni Award for her work in perinatal issues and women’s mental health. Barry Lewis is a litigation attorney with over 44 years in the private practice of law, primarily in the area of criminal law. He’s the past chair of the Chicago Bar Association Lawyer Referral Committee, winner of an award from Chicago Volunteer Legal Services, and has been a continuing legal education lecturer. His most recent published work was in The Champion, the magazine of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, and was titled A New Model of Law Offers Hope: Postpartum Disorders and the Law. Barry and Susan have a book coming in January 2020: Advocating for Women with Mental Illness: Changing the Law and Transforming the National Climate. The book covers why the law needs to be changed and the steps we can take to make it happen! Show Highlights: Why Susan and Barry are busy working on their new book due out in January One purpose of the book is to motivate others to help change laws in their states How a small group of people was able to make a change in the Illinois law How the change process began with two incarcerated women in Illinois who were serving 30-year and 33-year prison sentences How the new law recognizes postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis as mitigating factors in sentencing when women commit crimes while suffering The long process in getting legislation passed The typical charges in infanticide or postpartum psychosis/depression cases and the shortcomings of the law in dealing with them The difficulty for defense attorneys in making an insanity plea The arbitrary aspect of sentencing from state to state and case to case because there are not sufficient laws The magnitude of women who could be supported and helped with new, sweeping legislation The steps that need to be taken in treatment and sentencing for incarcerated women suffering from postpartum depression/psychosis Why these women benefit from being declared unfit for trial What people can do to start the change process in other states: Find the legislation schedule Look for a sponsor in the House or Senate Take an advocate training session How infanticide laws differ in England, Scotland, and Wales The important first step: eliminate mandatory minimum sentences Why unique conditions call for unique laws How the new Illinois law has opened the door for other legislation The development model to follow in dealing with these issues inhumane ways: Identify the problem Write the law clearly Document the need for new laws Attract a sponsor Convince legislators to act Examples of appropriate sentencing Resources: Websites:  Dr. Susan Feingold   and   Barry Lewis Law Email:  susanbf@sbcglobal.net  and  blewislaw@att.net
If you’ve ever had to be on bed rest during pregnancy, then you know it’s not as simple as it sounds. It takes intention to get through it with your mental health intact. Today’s guest, Jessica Vanderwier was on bed rest and she’s here to share how this experience impacted her, along with her best advice about how we can better support moms on bed rest. Jessica Vanderwier is a registered psychotherapist from Guelph, Ontario, who is passionate about supporting families. She is known online for Our Mama Village, a platform where she shares daily pieces of encouragement and support for moms and families. Jessica started this page after she went through a difficult transition into motherhood, and saw the need for a supportive community that moms would access anytime they needed. In her therapy work, Jessica supports families from preconception to working with children with mental health concerns. In her private life, Jessica loves her role as a mom and wife and spends her time with her husband and two-year-old daughter. Show Highlights: Jessica’s pregnancy: started normally, even though she was still working 40-50 hours/week At 20 weeks, cramping began, and she felt terrible after overdoing it planning a Christmas party, so she headed to the hospital to get checked The first clue that something serious was wrong at the hospital was the way the nurses kept repeating internal exams and ultrasounds--with no explanation why The nurse insisted that Jessica get in a wheelchair, so panic set in, with still no reason for the concern The diagnosis was incompetent cervix, preterm labor, and early dilation; the on-call Ob said the next step was bed rest to take the pressure off her cervix Jessica’s instructions were to be on the couch or in bed with her feet up all day, only getting up for brief bathroom breaks Why it was a difficult mental adjustment to have no work and no purpose other than to rest all-day How Jessica tried to keep a schedule each day in moving from bed to the couch, reading, books, and even taking an online course When she reached 34 weeks, her restrictions became a little more flexible; she was allowed to do dishes and ride in the car with her husband Her full-term birth was an answer to prayer, but then she entered a postpartum time of anxiety How she navigated life after bed rest How she felt like those who had helped her during the bed rest were burned out, so she didn’t ask for postpartum help At four months postpartum, Jessica decided to ask for help The frustration when the doctor discounts your postpartum feelings of anxiety and depression How this frustration fuels Jessica’s work today with moms How she got sleep, help with childcare, and therapy to feel better How Jessica looked for ways to help other moms Our Mama Village began as a Facebook page where moms could go for hope and encouragement and know they aren’t alone Why Our Mama Village has grown because the need is great and the message needs to get out to moms Jessica’s advice to others on bed rest: Be gentle with yourself Find something that gives purpose and meaning to each ay Find ways to talk and connect with your baby Schedule each day so they don’t roll along indefinitely Have something each week to look forward to Seek professional support, even if it’s online therapy Jessica’s online course (coming soon) with effective tools for dealing with anxiety and simple strategies to help moms enjoy motherhood Resources: Our Mama Village Instagram: Our Mama Village Facebook: Our Mama Village
Dealing with perinatal mental health issues is a difficult enough task, but the problem is compounded for Muslim women living in the US. My guest today helps us understand the issues and how we can best support these moms. Dr. Venus Mahmoodi specializes in trauma and reproductive mental health. More specifically, in today’s show, she’ll tell us about perinatal mental health for Muslim women, including the rates of depression for the Muslim community in the US, what makes them particularly vulnerable to perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, and how we can support Muslim women in a culturally competent way. Dr. Mahmoodi completed her Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology at Palo Alto University in California, with an emphasis on women’s neuroscience and health through collaboration with Stanford University. Her clinical training included working with refugees and torture survivors, veterans, and perinatal women in a specialized, intensive outpatient program. Her dissertation focused on the perinatal experience of Muslim women living in the US, including the protective aspects of Islamic practice during and after pregnancy against depressive symptoms. Dr. Mahmoodi completed specialized training through Postpartum Support International, and advanced specialized training in grief/loss and distress related to infertility at the Seleni Institute in NY. She now cares for individuals and couples at the Seleni Institute, which focuses on perinatal mental health as well as the Haleel Center, which focuses on the mental well-being of Muslims. Show Highlights: Why the percentages of perinatal mood and anxiety disorders increase for women of color, including Muslim women (up to 28%), but there are lower levels of support, services, and resources How culture and religion play huge roles in the Muslim population The unique challenges for Muslim women, including issues with their country of origin, because their practices will differ from those in other countries The far-reaching effects of Islam in countries around the world, with Indonesia and South Asia having the largest numbers The misconceptions that Muslims only come from Middle Eastern countries How the two sects of Muslims differ in how their religion is practiced and expectations for pregnancy and postpartum Societal pressure and family pressure within the Muslim community How family traditions in pregnancy and postpartum can lead to stress and anxiety for moms Religious practice and prayer restrictions in the Muslim community Other coping strategies that Muslim women can use when they are restricted from prayers Feelings of inadequacy for the Muslim mother How The Haleel Center finds ways to incorporate religious thought and women’s expectations Vulnerabilities for Muslim women in gender roles and stigmas for patriarchal societies Strengths for Muslim women in that religion protects them against mental illness, helps them cope with and manage stress, and gives them a sense of connection to God How we can support Muslim women in culturally competent ways by being curious and avoiding assumptions Join our Patreon today and support this Podcast: Patreon: Mom And Mind Our listeners get a 10% discount on Ritual Vitamins for your first three months! Ritual Mom And Mind Resources: Counseling Muslims: Handbook of Mental Health Issues and Interventions Edited by Sameera Ahmed and Mona M. Amer
Everyone eagerly anticipates becoming a grandparent, right? Think again. There are various reasons why you might be apprehensive about achieving this milestone in life. The truth is that it’s not socially acceptable to admit these feelings. People may shrink away in horror if you dare to confess being hesitant about what you are supposed to embrace with unbridled joy. In today’s show, we are diving deeper into this hush-hush topic. Dr. Shoshana Bennett was the very first guest on the podcast for Episodes 1 & 2. She very graciously came on when I was new at this, and she tolerated my fumbling around and my poor sound quality, too! I’m so grateful to have her back as the first guest to kick off the 3rd year of the Mom & Mind podcast. This time, she’s bringing the perspective of being a new grandmother with her own history of postpartum mental health challenges. This is such a necessary conversation, especially as the field of perinatal mental health grows, and we are recognizing and treating the conditions more. As those mothers develop into grandmothers, this will be something to consider for that time of life. Affectionately known as “Dr. Shosh,” she educates, engages, and empowers her audiences while discussing serious and often uncomfortable topics using humor, the latest research, solution-based protocols, and firsthand knowledge she gleaned after experiencing life-threatening postpartum depression. After two life-threatening bouts of postpartum illness, Dr. Shosh helped pioneer the field of maternal mental health. She founded Postpartum Assistance for Mothers in 1987, became president of California’s state organization, Postpartum Health Alliance, and then served as president of Postpartum Support International. She is the author of Children of the Depressed, Postpartum Depression for Dummies, Pregnant on Prozac, and is the co-author of Beyond the Blues: Understanding and Treating Prenatal and Postpartum Depression & Anxiety. She is an executive producer of the documentary, Dark Side of the Full Moon, and co-founded the Postpartum Action Institute. To date, Dr. Shosh has helped over 20,000 women around the world recover through private consultations, teleclasses, and support groups. At the time of this interview, Dr. Shosh wasn’t a grandmother yet but became one on June 5. In spite of anxiety and scary thoughts, she’s been able to enjoy her grandson and watch her daughter have a totally different postpartum experience than she did. Show Highlights: Shosh reads her recent article, “Scared to be a Grandma” What she heard when she submitted this article to various publications How Dr. Shosh is breaking ground in the field of reluctant grandparenting, just as she did with perinatal mental health back in the 1990s The difficulty in understanding that a grandmother may be apprehensive The fascinating feelings in the grandparent experience Why Dr. Shosh has been getting therapy support in preparing for her grandchild Embracing the whole journey to grandparenthood Finding ourselves and identifying what needs to unfold to deal with our feelings The importance of starting the conversation and being honest without judgment Maintaining the connection between parents and new grandparents Shosh wants to hear your comments, questions, and thoughts! See her contact info below! Resources: Dr. Shosh Email: drshosh@drshosh.com Dr. Shosh’s books: Children of the Depressed Postpartum Depression for Dummies Pregnant on Prozac and Beyond the Blues
Today’s show is a bonus episode as we celebrate our 3rd anniversary! It’s been an adventure and a learning process along the way. I’ll admit that I had no clue what I was doing when we started, or what was involved in doing a podcast, but I knew we needed to get information and resources out there to moms and families. So now, after 152 episodes, I’m proud of how far we’ve come on the journey---and we’ll keep going to get the word out to even more moms and families in the future! Show Highlights: The incredible details of the podcast’s reach: we’ve had 240,000 downloads in over 75 countries! The facts that show the need: 20% of new parents will experience perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, so we still have a lot of work to do How I got started without knowing anything about podcasting The rewarding feeling from the feedback, knowing the show has helped listeners The benefit in sitting and sharing with each other The intensity of our heavy topics and episodes Why I don’t want anyone to feel alone in this struggle The expenses involved to keep the show going, along with our new fundraising efforts Information about the new Monthly Mom and Mind Collaborative Resources: Patreon for Mom & Mind Podcast
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Comments (3)

samoina wangui

it is always amazing to read about people's journey, and listening in to where mom and mind began!! is beautiful. great job Kat! ♥️

Aug 16th
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Miss T

Whoa, this maked so much sense. & was explained in a user friendly way with realistic expectations. I have PTSD & by trial & error, not knowing, I identify how long I will be somewhere & always have an escape plan, so I can manage my energy & symptoms. Thanks Again, this definitely a must share. Peace Shalom Tee🐒

Oct 4th
Reply

Jae Bird

thank you for this channel. i am a new mother dealing with PPA & PPD and hearing i'm not alone has made me feel much better.

Nov 29th
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