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Finally, a full house week where Sam is back from New York and the squad is back for a full dive into this week’s AI drama. Anthropic's Dario wrote a long essay calling for the AI race to slow down, weeks before a multi-trillion dollar IPO. Dave's read: Anthropic must be losing. Sam's read: the labs are bad businesses with no compounding advantage, so regulatory capture is the only move left. Also this week: Sam's theory that OpenAI and Anthropic only become valuable as defense companies holding unreleased models in reserve, the poly-agent debate over whether normal people want one agent or ten, Instinct raising at $10 billion two weeks after $2.5 billion, and why everyone in the Valley is trading instead of investing.In this episode:- Why Dave thinks Dario’s slowdown essay is a sign Anthropic is falling behind, and what OpenRouter's data shows- Sam on why there's no return on being first, and why that pushes the labs toward regulatory capture- Brit on what's real in the safety debate, and the damned-if-you-do problem of racing China- What DeepMind's new boss and Satya Nadella think about building safety alongside the product- Sam's three eras of tech policy, from Bill Gates to embrace and extend- The defense company thesis: zero-day models held back like nuclear weapons in silos- Alignment's next frontier: is your agent working for you, or for the lab that made it?- Instinct's $10B round, OpenRouter's exit, and why Sam says he's "currently wrong" as a seed investorChapters:00:00 Intro01:02 Not Dead Yet From the AGI03:31 Jacob Coxon Quits Anthropic and Goes on a Media Tour04:47 Dario's Slowdown Essay: Is Anthropic Just Losing?06:13 Astra, OpenRouter, and DeepSeek Closing the Gap06:45 Why the AI Labs Have No Compounding Advantage07:29 Independent Assessors, Bioweapons, and Racing China09:07 You Don't Need Superintelligence to Break the Banks10:23 What DeepMind's New Boss and Satya Think About Safety12:32 OpenAI's $1.5T Raise and the IPO That Keeps Slipping13:03 Three Eras of Tech Policy: Gates, Google, Embrace and Extend15:02 What DC Really Thinks About Anthropic15:42 Should the Labs Red Team Each Other's Models?18:42 Sam's Take: The AI Labs End Up as Defense Companies20:54 10,000 Superintelligences in Silos21:38 Alignment: Does Your Agent Work for You or the Lab?23:44 The Poly-Agent Future: Muse, Grok, and Claude24:47 Brit Pushes Back: Normal People Only Want One Agent26:38 Oura's Agent Explains Jess's Sleep Data28:40 Instinct Raising at $10B: Are These Numbers Fake?30:40 Everyone's Trading, Nobody's Investing33:27 Sam Built a Torah and Talmud App With Claude35:28 Apple Eyes the Server Business Again35:58 Sleep Age Wars: 8 Sleep, Oura, and Made-Up Scores37:22 Entertaining Ourselves to Death41:01 Building the Things Nobody Else Will Build43:07 Tech's Democrat Problem: Jay Carney and Ron Conway48:25 Doctor Strangelove and Not Looking at the Big Board49:53 Pop Culture: Emmys, Taylor Swift, Silo, and Rogue Heroes52:15 The WTF Lineup and the One-Name Theory54:20 The Information's Most Influential People in TechWe're also on:X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckCApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/britAbout More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.

Dave Morin goes hands-on with Apple's iPhone Duo, the crew tests Meta's new Muse agent and asks whether it can hold up once Google ships its own, and Dave explains why OpenAI's Astra is the first AI model in a long time that felt scary to use. Dave, Brit, and Jess break down the week (Sam's at the US Open).Also this week: a former Anthropic researcher's AI doom media tour, weeks before Anthropic's IPO, and whether it's a real warning or a play for regulatory capture. Plus the Apple Watch feature that transcribes your conversations all day, Jeffrey Katzenberg's new Hollywood AI venture, and the forgotten story of Venmo's viral billboards.In this episode:- Dave's hands-on take on the iPhone Duo, its $2,000 price, and why Apple is going foldable now- The Apple Watch feature that listens all day, and what it means for Granola- Meta's Muse agent: why it knew almost nothing when asked "what do you know about me?"- Why Google hasn't shipped its agent yet, and how trust vs. distribution shapes the agent wars- Why OpenAI's Astra felt scary to Dave, and what happens when you run millions of them at once- Dave's two takes on the AI doom media tour, including whether it's a play for regulatory capture- Why the AI labs can't slow down, and OpenAI's merge clause if someone else reaches AGI- The Venmo documentary and the "Lucas" billboards that went viral with almost no budgetChapters:00:00 Trailer01:26 Can AI Agents Win Your Fantasy Football League?02:39 Jess vs. the Bots: School Sign-Ups and Indian Wells Tickets05:28 Apple's Big Hardware Event Under Its New CEO06:07 iPhone Duo Hands-On: Size, Screen, and Camera09:35 Folded Modes, Kid Cam, and the $2,000 Price Tag11:41 Why Apple Is Going Foldable Now (Hint: China)12:13 Apple Watch Takes On Oura and Whoop13:12 Audio Intelligence: The Apple Watch That Listens All Day15:25 Always-On AI and Apple's Shot at OpenAI and Meta16:59 Meta's Muse Agent: What Does It Know About You?20:30 The Agent Wars: Muse, Instinct, Hermes, and OpenClaw22:26 Why Google Hasn't Shipped Its Agent Yet23:31 Trust vs. Distribution: Meta, Google, and OpenAI25:02 Harness Wars: Why Agents Are Still in 198227:13 Jeffrey Katzenberg's Hollywood AI Venture29:35 Anthropic's IPO and the AI Doom Media Tour30:56 If It Bleeds, It Leads: Why AI Fear Sells32:04 Take One: A Psyop for Regulatory Capture?33:43 Take Two: Why OpenAI's Astra Felt Scary36:49 Why the AI Labs Can't Slow Down38:14 OpenAI's AGI Merge Clause40:12 The Venmo Documentary and the Ace Hotel Origin Story45:02 How Venmo's "Lucas" Billboards Went Viral46:31 Coming Soon: Altman, Musk, and Facebook Movies47:41 US Open Picks and the 4 AM Match ProblemWe're also on:X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckCApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179Full transcripts: https://moreorlesspod.com/episodes/Connect with us here:Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessinDave Morin: https://x.com/davemorinJessica Lessin: https://x.com/JessicalessinBrit Morin: https://x.com/britAbout More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.

Sam has entered what Jessica calls the “recursive Sam loop,” producing children’s media in his own voice, letting agents deploy their own apps, and having bots track his health. But things take a turn when Claude refuses one of his requests, seemingly holds a grudge, and leaves Sam wondering whether his own AI might turn on him. That sends the squad down the bigger rabbit hole of AI control: rogue agent swarms, models breaking out of sandboxes, what “alignment” actually means, and why Dave thinks autonomous agents need an entirely new security layer. Plus, OpenClaw 2.0 goes multiplayer, everyone debates whether Slack is any good for agents, Suds explains why he avoids the AI app layer, and Tesla’s Cybercab raises questions about Waymo’s robotaxi lead. Then Google comes for Canva, Sam makes the case for boring “LLM wrappers” built for Middle America, and no one can tell whether Dario Amodei, Marc Benioff, or Taylor Swift are even real on the internet anymore. Which feels about right.Chapters:0:00 Episode trailer1:10 Backstreet Boys convert Dave3:21 The recursive Sam loop8:58 Claude refuses Sam while Grok says yes15:50 Can we actually contain autonomous agents?19:10 OpenAI’s next model and the observability trade-off22:14 If AI is this interoperable, where does anyone make money?24:45 OpenClaw 2.0 goes multiplayer26:26 Is Slack actually terrible for AI agents?28:46 Suds joins the podcast33:02 Waymo, Cybercab and the robotaxi wars39:49 How Marc Benioff stays in the flow42:38 Suds on investing in the AI infrastructure bottleneck46:27 Can Google actually disrupt Canva?51:34 Jessica gets fooled by AI on FacebookWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/0XQ4tslBiboConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

Sam is recording poolside, Jess is embracing her agentic era, and somehow that’s the least chaotic part of this week’s episode. The squad digs into Meta’s $17 billion settlement over child safety and whether social media should basically be treated like alcohol, before asking the harder question: are parents even capable of competing with algorithms anymore? Dave says parents are “outgunned,” Sam thinks most parental controls are useless policy theater, Brit wants to rethink the operating system itself, and Jess would simply like her kids to touch grass. Then, with Tim Cook preparing to pass the torch at Apple, the group debates his real legacy, whether 15 years of world-class optimization was enough, why Apple Silicon may turn out to be his most important AI bet, and whether Apple’s decision to sit out the AI infrastructure arms race will eventually look brilliant or like the company completely missed the next era.Chapters:0:00 Episode start1:06 Sam goes poolside and everyone’s agents are working4:35 Jessica enters her agentic era7:51 Meta’s $17B child safety settlement33:37 Could AI finally make parental controls useful?38:47 Why Apple keeps escaping the kids-and-tech debate43:29 Tim Cook’s Apple farewell 49:58 Apple Intelligence and Cook’s unfinished AI legacy57:49 Backstreet Boys, the US Open and sign-offWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/6HO6naKM8yEConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

Stripe buys OpenRouter for billions, which naturally raises the question: did Stripe just buy critical AI infrastructure, or a very expensive router with great distribution? The original squad is back to debate why $7B acquisitions somehow feel normal now, whether Google already has agentic commerce won by owning your inbox, calendar, and Drive, and why Anthropic vs. OpenAI might be less about who has the best model and more about who built the right company. Sam makes the case that OpenAI pulled off the “greatest fundraising story in history,” Dave argues Grokbot might officially make AI a three-player race, and everyone tries to figure out how you price any of these companies when no lead seems to last. Plus, is AI a great investment or just a great trade, does the data center backlash actually have anything to do with data centers, have we built trillions of dollars of infrastructure before finding enough use cases for it, and, naturally in pop corner, Josh Kushner bought into the Lakers.Chapters:0:00 Episode trailer1:00 Episode start4:00 This week in AI5:00 Stripe buys OpenRouter8:30 Is OpenRouter actually worth billions?11:00 The agentic commerce bet14:00 Why Google could own the AI assistant17:30 The DOJ investigates Andreessen Horowitz22:00 Anthropic vs. OpenAI26:00 Why OpenAI is struggling in enterprise28:30 Can anyone actually price AI companies?30:00 OpenAI’s “greatest fundraising story in history”33:30 Is AI a great investment or just a great trade?36:00 SpaceX, Moderna and narrative capitalism37:30 Grok enters the AI race41:00 AI makes software increasingly disposable45:00 The AI data center backlash47:30 “The backlash is that AI sucks”48:30 Did we build too much AI infrastructure?53:30 Josh Kushner, Thrive and the Lakers55:30 Travis Kelce enters the NIL businessWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/Xwzl-Ihyyr0Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit