No Small Endeavor with Lee C. Camp

This is our unabridged interview with Garrett Graff. What can it possibly mean to flourish in our tech saturated world? In the early 2000s, the internet felt like a civic miracle in the making, with profound possibilities for human flourishing and civic progress. Facebook gave voice to protestors in Egypt’s Tahrir Square. Twitter helped bring down dictators. The web seemed poised to enhance democracy, amplify transparency, and connect us more deeply. But then the tide turned. This episode features Garrett Graff, historian, journalist, and host of the award-winning podcast Long Shadow: Breaking the Internet. In this sobering conversation, Graff joins Lee to unpack how a platform born of hope became a tool for outrage, surveillance, and even genocide. Drawing on more than three decades of digital history, Graff traces how tech's shift from user-driven exploration to algorithmic manipulation created not just a loss of innocence—but a structural system designed to enrage. We hear the story of the Arab Spring, where connectivity spurred revolution, only to become a mechanism of authoritarian control. We examine Myanmar, where unchecked hate speech on Facebook helped fuel mass atrocities. And we explore a haunting question: What kind of people are we becoming through our use of these technologies? Along the way, Graff reflects on his own tech optimism, the moral responsibility of tech executives, and why understanding internet history is a civic—not academic—duty. He and Lee also examine whether AI is already repeating these same mistakes. If you’ve ever asked how the internet became what it is today—or what role we each play in its future—this episode offers both clarity and a call to courage. Garrett Graff’s insights offer one of the most thoughtful takes yet on the digital age’s moral and social consequences. Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Garrett Graff. Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order. Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join our subscriber-only community called NSE+ ⁠⁠⁠⁠BY CLICKING HERE ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Get tickets to NSE Live in Nashville ⁠⁠⁠⁠BY CLICKING HERE⁠⁠⁠⁠ Get ad-free listening, great member-only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member! No Small Endeavor: An award winning podcast exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, spirituality, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, the cardinal virtues, the how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, and community. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When a Christian influencer warns moms that Taylor Swift will lead their daughters astray, the conversation has moved beyond pop music and into culture. In this episode, Savannah and Lee trace how the church has wrestled with cultural artifacts, including Niebuhr’s Christ and Culture, and what frameworks can help us understand modern reactions to celebrities like Swift. Then, they turn to Life of a Showgirl to explore how Taylor’s own storytelling exposes what we actually believe about celebrity, power, and holiness in the world. Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What can it possibly mean to flourish in our tech saturated world? In the early 2000s, the internet felt like a civic miracle in the making, with profound possibilities for human flourishing and civic progress. Facebook gave voice to protestors in Egypt’s Tahrir Square. Twitter helped bring down dictators. The web seemed poised to enhance democracy, amplify transparency, and connect us more deeply. But then the tide turned. This episode features Garrett Graff, historian, journalist, and host of the award-winning podcast Long Shadow: Breaking the Internet. In this sobering conversation, Graff joins Lee to unpack how a platform born of hope became a tool for outrage, surveillance, and even genocide. Drawing on more than three decades of digital history, Graff traces how tech's shift from user-driven exploration to algorithmic manipulation created not just a loss of innocence—but a structural system designed to enrage. We hear the story of the Arab Spring, where connectivity spurred revolution, only to become a mechanism of authoritarian control. We examine Myanmar, where unchecked hate speech on Facebook helped fuel mass atrocities. And we explore a haunting question: What kind of people are we becoming through our use of these technologies? Along the way, Graff reflects on his own tech optimism, the moral responsibility of tech executives, and why understanding internet history is a civic—not academic—duty. He and Lee also examine whether AI is already repeating these same mistakes. If you’ve ever asked how the internet became what it is today—or what role we each play in its future—this episode offers both clarity and a call to courage. Garrett Graff’s insights offer one of the most thoughtful takes yet on the digital age’s moral and social consequences. Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Garrett Graff. Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order. Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join our subscriber-only community called NSE+ ⁠⁠⁠⁠BY CLICKING HERE ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Get tickets to NSE Live in Nashville ⁠⁠⁠⁠BY CLICKING HERE⁠⁠⁠⁠ Get ad-free listening, great member-only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member! No Small Endeavor: An award winning podcast exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, spirituality, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, the cardinal virtues, the how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, and community. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Anna Sale. When Anna Sale launched Death, Sex & Money in 2014, she was 30 years old, newly divorced, living alone in a studio apartment in New York City, and trying to figure out what her life would become. She had covered politics as a reporter, but her personal world was unraveling. So she started asking strangers to talk about hard things, the questions she herself was desperate to explore: How do people rebuild after loss? What do we do with grief, shame, money, or fractured relationships? What does it mean to live with honesty when the easy script disappears? Over the past decade, Anna Sale has become one of the most trusted voices on how to have hard conversations—the ones we often avoid but need most. Her hit podcast has been named Podcast of the Year by The Atlantic and Apple Podcasts, and her book, Let’s Talk About Hard Things, has been embraced as a guide for meaningful living. In this conversation, Anna and Lee explore the important difference between "let's talk about HARD things" and "yes, LET's! let's talk about hard things." And why talk about hard things might be, potentially, among the most life-giving conversations. They discuss shame and grief, the ways our families teach us what not to talk about, and the habits that help us listen well. Anna reflects on her own divorce, her Unitarian Universalist upbringing, and how practices of honesty and vulnerability help us build flourishing relationships even across cultural divides. Along the way, Anna shares wisdom on navigating sex and intimacy without shame, why money conversations trigger so much discomfort, and what facing death can teach us about authentic human flourishing. Her insights blend psychology and happiness research, theology and culture, and a deep faith in the inherent dignity of every person. A beautiful conversation about being human, and about what becomes possible when we have the courage to ask hard questions and the patience to really listen. Please be advised that this episode contains details that may be upsetting to some listeners, including reference to suicide. Additional resources are available at:  ⁠ NAMI⁠  ⁠Crisis Textline⁠ ⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Anna Sale⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order. Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join our subscriber-only community called NSE+ ⁠BY CLICKING HERE ⁠ Get tickets to NSE Live in Nashville ⁠BY CLICKING HERE⁠ Get ad-free listening, great member-only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member! No Small Endeavor: An award winning podcast exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, spirituality, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, the cardinal virtues, the how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, and community. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Here’s a preview of a new podcast series that Lee recently appeared in, The Alabama Murders from Revisionist History. Florence, Alabama. 1988. A preacher has an affair. A woman is murdered. One death cascades into more, stretching across decades and leaving no one untouched — victims, bystanders, perpetrators, and those just trying to help. On The Alabama Murders, Malcolm Gladwell asks: why, in our efforts to alleviate suffering, do we so often make it worse? Find Revisionist History: The Alabama Murders wherever you get podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When Spotify CEO Daniel Ek invests in a military AI startup, it raises a deeper question: how do we live with integrity in systems that profit from harm? In this episode, we explore the uncomfortable relationship between the best and brightest, money, and violence—from Deerhoof’s protest to Oppenheimer’s legacy, from Walter Wink’s “powers that be” to Dorothy Day’s radical refusal to cooperate. Is resistance possible in a world where no dollar is clean? And what does the Kingdom of God have to do with any of it? Follow The Subtext: ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠X⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠ Follow Lee: ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠⁠ Follow Savannah: ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Substack⁠⁠ Join our Email List: ⁠⁠nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When Anna Sale launched Death, Sex & Money in 2014, she was 30 years old, newly divorced, living alone in a studio apartment in New York City, and trying to figure out what her life would become. She had covered politics as a reporter, but her personal world was unraveling. So she started asking strangers to talk about hard things, the questions she herself was desperate to explore: How do people rebuild after loss? What do we do with grief, shame, money, or fractured relationships? What does it mean to live with honesty when the easy script disappears? Over the past decade, Anna Sale has become one of the most trusted voices on how to have hard conversations—the ones we often avoid but need most. Her hit podcast has been named Podcast of the Year by The Atlantic and Apple Podcasts, and her book, Let’s Talk About Hard Things, has been embraced as a guide for meaningful living. In this conversation, Anna and Lee explore the important difference between "let's talk about HARD things" and "yes, LET's! let's talk about hard things." And why talk about hard things might be, potentially, among the most life-giving conversations. They discuss shame and grief, the ways our families teach us what not to talk about, and the habits that help us listen well. Anna reflects on her own divorce, her Unitarian Universalist upbringing, and how practices of honesty and vulnerability help us build flourishing relationships even across cultural divides. Along the way, Anna shares wisdom on navigating sex and intimacy without shame, why money conversations trigger so much discomfort, and what facing death can teach us about authentic human flourishing. Her insights blend psychology and happiness research, theology and culture, and a deep faith in the inherent dignity of every person. A beautiful conversation about being human, and about what becomes possible when we have the courage to ask hard questions and the patience to really listen. Please be advised that this episode contains details that may be upsetting to some listeners, including reference to suicide. Additional resources are available at:  NAMI  Crisis Textline Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Anna Sale Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order. Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join our subscriber-only community called NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE  Get tickets to NSE Live in Nashville BY CLICKING HERE Get ad-free listening, great member-only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member! No Small Endeavor: An award winning podcast exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, spirituality, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, the cardinal virtues, the how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, and community. Follow @nosmallendeavor  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow @leeccamp Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Terence Lester. It was three days before Christmas when Terence Lester’s family dropped him beneath a bridge in Atlanta. With no change of clothes and a biting winter cold, he began a month-long experiment in solidarity with the unhoused. Strangers offered blankets, socks, even stories around a firepit. It was humbling, painful, and life-altering. And it was from this crucible that Love Beyond Walls was born—a nonprofit dedicated to restoring dignity and community for those pushed to the margins: an exploration into what human flourishing might entail among the disenfranchised.  In this episode of No Small Endeavor, Lee C. Camp sits down with scholar and activist Terence Lester, whose own journey from dropout to doctorate is as much about human flourishing as it is about survival. His book, From Dropout to Doctorate: Breaking the Chains of Educational Injustice, chronicles the wounds of generational trauma, systemic barriers, and the loneliness of feeling unseen—but also the surprising sanctuaries: a stranger’s word of courage, a teacher’s belief, and a church’s embrace, and the daily practices that sustain new ways forward. They explore how trauma shapes education, how community makes flourishing relationships possible, and how storytelling itself becomes a form of justice. Terence Lester reminds us that poverty is not just economic—it is cultural, emotional, spiritual—and that courage and compassion are required if we are to serve the common good. It is an invitation to become people who borrow and lend courage, to create sanctuaries for others, and to live with an intention toward justice, belonging, and authentic human flourishing. ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Terence Lester⁠⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order. Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Join our subscriber-only community called ⁠NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE⁠. ⁠⁠ Get ad-free listening, great member-only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member! No Small Endeavor: An award winning podcast exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, the cardinal virtues, the how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, and community. Follow ⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, interreligious dialogue, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and the social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠@leeccamp⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, Lee and Savannah explore why friendships are harder to form and sustain in today’s culture, despite living in the most “connected” era in history. They examine how technology and convenience have reshaped friendship from a priority into a luxury. They ask whether these shifts meet our deep human need for connection or quietly erode it. Ultimately, the conversation wrestles with how we might resist the forces of isolation and reclaim friendship as essential to a flourishing life. Follow The Subtext: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Threads⁠ | ⁠X⁠ | ⁠YouTube⁠ | ⁠TikTok⁠ Follow Lee: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠ | ⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠ Follow Savannah: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Substack⁠ Join our Email List: ⁠nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It was three days before Christmas when Terence Lester’s family dropped him beneath a bridge in Atlanta. With no change of clothes and a biting winter cold, he began a month-long experiment in solidarity with the unhoused. Strangers offered blankets, socks, even stories around a firepit. It was humbling, painful, and life-altering. And it was from this crucible that Love Beyond Walls was born—a nonprofit dedicated to restoring dignity and community for those pushed to the margins: an exploration into what human flourishing might entail among the disenfranchised.  In this episode of No Small Endeavor, Lee C. Camp sits down with scholar and activist Terence Lester, whose own journey from dropout to doctorate is as much about human flourishing as it is about survival. His book, From Dropout to Doctorate: Breaking the Chains of Educational Injustice, chronicles the wounds of generational trauma, systemic barriers, and the loneliness of feeling unseen—but also the surprising sanctuaries: a stranger’s word of courage, a teacher’s belief, and a church’s embrace, and the daily practices that sustain new ways forward. They explore how trauma shapes education, how community makes flourishing relationships possible, and how storytelling itself becomes a form of justice. Terence Lester reminds us that poverty is not just economic—it is cultural, emotional, spiritual—and that courage and compassion are required if we are to serve the common good. It is an invitation to become people who borrow and lend courage, to create sanctuaries for others, and to live with an intention toward justice, belonging, and authentic human flourishing. ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Terence Lester⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order. Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join our subscriber-only community called ⁠NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE⁠. ⁠ Get ad-free listening, great member-only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member! No Small Endeavor: An award winning podcast exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, the cardinal virtues, the how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, and community. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, interreligious dialogue, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and the social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Jen Hatmaker. Jen Hatmaker's world unraveled at 2.00 a.m. one night when she awoke to hear her husband of 26 years lying beside her in bed, voice-texting his girlfriend.  That's the brutal story with which Jen begins her new memoir, Awake: A Memoir of Reinvention and Recovery. It was the start of a long, painful journey—through grief, honesty with her self, and ultimately, toward authentic human flourishing. Jen shares what it meant to lose not only her marriage, but also the public persona she had spent decades building. Best known as a bestselling author and beloved Christian speaker, Hatmaker found herself stripped of the institutional supports that once held her world together. And yet, in that undoing, she began the slow work of reinvention. Lee and Jen explore the process of grief, self-awareness, and personal growth—why many of us fear the truth, how religious systems can discourage vulnerability, and what it looks like to move from codependency toward self-compassion. And, Hatmaker speaks candidly about the body’s wisdom, the challenge of letting go, and the act of befriending yourself. Jen Hatmaker is the author of fourteen books, including four New York Times bestsellers, and host of the podcast For the Love. Her latest book, Awake, offers a vulnerable account of healing after loss—exploring what it means to live with purpose, even when everything falls apart. ⁠⁠ Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Jen Hatmaker⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order. Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join our subscriber-only community called ⁠NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE⁠. ⁠ Get ad-free listening, great member-only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member. No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, Savannah Locke and Lee C. Camp dive into a critical discussion of the Netflix show "America's Sweethearts" and the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders' fight for fair wages. This sparks a broader conversation about the wealth gap, the commodification of labor—including human bodies—in professional sports, and the different types of justice. They explore why many American Christians might be hesitant to critique systemic wealth inequality, referencing historical Christian traditions on money and justice. Plus important public service announcements about skunks and shoes. Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jen Hatmaker's world unraveled at 2.00 a.m. one night when she awoke to hear her husband of 26 years lying beside her in bed, voice-texting his girlfriend.  That's the brutal story with which Jen begins her new memoir, Awake: A Memoir of Reinvention and Recovery. It was the start of a long, painful journey—through grief, honesty with her self, and ultimately, toward authentic human flourishing. Jen shares what it meant to lose not only her marriage, but also the public persona she had spent decades building. Best known as a bestselling author and beloved Christian speaker, Hatmaker found herself stripped of the institutional supports that once held her world together. And yet, in that undoing, she began the slow work of reinvention. Lee and Jen explore the process of grief, self-awareness, and personal growth—why many of us fear the truth, how religious systems can discourage vulnerability, and what it looks like to move from codependency toward self-compassion. And, Hatmaker speaks candidly about the body’s wisdom, the challenge of letting go, and the act of befriending yourself. Jen Hatmaker is the author of fourteen books, including four New York Times bestsellers, and host of the podcast For the Love. Her latest book, Awake, offers a vulnerable account of healing after loss—exploring what it means to live with purpose, even when everything falls apart. ⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Jen Hatmaker Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order. Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join our subscriber-only community called ⁠NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE⁠.  Get ad-free listening, great member-only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member. No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Max Lucado. Called “America’s Pastor," Max Lucado has sold more than 150 million products and authored over 40 nonfiction books. In this vulnerable career retrospective interview, Lee explores what led Max Lucado to become almost synonymous with grace, acceptance and forgiveness--namely some of his own wounds from childhood experiences in a frugal, sometimes emotionally volatile West Texas home. He recounts stories of his mother--whom he deeply loved--struggling with undiagnosed depression and difficult mood swings; a cheerful and industrious father who modeled stability; and Max's own heavy drinking in his teenage years.  We also discuss Max's new book, Tame Your Thoughts, rooted in the psychology of thought management alongside biblical principles. As rates of depression and anxiety spike, especially among young people, Lucado’s integration of neuroscience, spiritual reflection, and practical action speaks directly to the needs of a culture wrestling with mental health and personal growth. He shares candidly about his wife’s experience with depression, his own evolving understanding of clinical support, and how brain science—particularly studies around neuroplasticity—has reshaped his approach to spiritual life and leadership. The conversation also examines the ethics of silence and speech, particularly in the context of evangelicalism and American politics. Lucado explains why he historically avoided political commentary—and why, in key moments, he broke that rule. From criticizing Donald Trump’s character during the 2016 election, to asking public forgiveness at a 2020 Black Lives Matter prayer event, he reflects on the risks and responsibilities involved in public moral witness. Themes of grace, trauma, conviction, and community intertwine with personal storytelling and spiritual wisdom. It’s an invitation not just to understand Max Lucado better—but to examine the stories, bruises, and beliefs that shape our own lives. How might your past inform your calling? What hidden scripts are shaping your thoughts—and how can they be rewritten? ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ of our abridged episode with Max Lucado⁠⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Click ⁠⁠here⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order. Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Join our subscriber-only community called ⁠NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE⁠. ⁠⁠ Get ad-free listening, great member-only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member! No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, the cardinal virtues, the how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, and community. Follow @nosmallendeavor Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow @leeccamp Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, we dissect the summer blockbuster Superman that flips the script by emphasizing vulnerability and humanity over untouchable power. Fans have praised the way the movie let Superman cry, lose, and even ask for help, while critics argue it made him too weak. We connect these reactions to questions of faith, asking what it means to worship a vulnerable God who suffered, wept, and even seemed to lose. This episode was recorded on August 29, 2025. Follow The Subtext: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Threads⁠ | ⁠X⁠ | ⁠YouTube⁠ | ⁠TikTok⁠ Follow Lee: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠ | ⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠ Follow Savannah: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Substack⁠ Join our Email List: ⁠nosmallendeavor.com⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Called “America’s Pastor," Max Lucado has sold more than 150 million products and authored over 40 nonfiction books. In this vulnerable career retrospective interview, Lee explores what led Max Lucado to become almost synonymous with grace, acceptance and forgiveness--namely some of his own wounds from childhood experiences in a frugal, sometimes emotionally volatile West Texas home. He recounts stories of his mother--whom he deeply loved--struggling with undiagnosed depression and difficult mood swings; a cheerful and industrious father who modeled stability; and Max's own heavy drinking in his teenage years.  We also discuss Max's new book, Tame Your Thoughts, rooted in the psychology of thought management alongside biblical principles. As rates of depression and anxiety spike, especially among young people, Lucado’s integration of neuroscience, spiritual reflection, and practical action speaks directly to the needs of a culture wrestling with mental health and personal growth. He shares candidly about his wife’s experience with depression, his own evolving understanding of clinical support, and how brain science—particularly studies around neuroplasticity—has reshaped his approach to spiritual life and leadership. The conversation also examines the ethics of silence and speech, particularly in the context of evangelicalism and American politics. Lucado explains why he historically avoided political commentary—and why, in key moments, he broke that rule. From criticizing Donald Trump’s character during the 2016 election, to asking public forgiveness at a 2020 Black Lives Matter prayer event, he reflects on the risks and responsibilities involved in public moral witness. Themes of grace, trauma, conviction, and community intertwine with personal storytelling and spiritual wisdom. It’s an invitation not just to understand Max Lucado better—but to examine the stories, bruises, and beliefs that shape our own lives. How might your past inform your calling? What hidden scripts are shaping your thoughts—and how can they be rewritten? ⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ of our abridged episode with Max Lucado⁠⁠⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Click ⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order. Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Join our subscriber-only community called ⁠NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE⁠. ⁠⁠⁠ Get ad-free listening, great member-only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member! No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, the cardinal virtues, the how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, and community. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠ Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Amy Sherman. What if the church were known not for culture wars or abuses of power, but for building parks, strengthening schools, advancing science education, and championing restorative justice? That’s the vision Amy L. Sherman lays out in her book Agents of Flourishing. In this conversation, Sherman invites us to imagine faith communities not as insular institutions, but as agents of civic renewal—places that contribute to the common good. Her framework centers on six “endowments” of a thriving society: the Good, the True, the Beautiful, the Just, the Prosperous, and the Sustainable. Each is a way of asking how theology might shape public life: how churches partner with schools, support economic models that value workers and neighborhoods, invest in the arts, and even help design more beautiful and livable cities. At its heart, this is a call to recover a holistic, biblically grounded vision of shalom—where faith is not reduced to Sunday services or private belief, but becomes a public witness for wholeness in our relationships, institutions, and communities. ⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠ No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Join our subscriber only community called ⁠NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE⁠. Get ad-free listening, great member only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if the church were known not for culture wars or abuses of power, but for building parks, strengthening schools, advancing science education, and championing restorative justice? That’s the vision Amy L. Sherman lays out in her book Agents of Flourishing. In this conversation, Sherman invites us to imagine faith communities not as insular institutions, but as agents of civic renewal—places that contribute to the common good. Her framework centers on six “endowments” of a thriving society: the Good, the True, the Beautiful, the Just, the Prosperous, and the Sustainable. Each is a way of asking how theology might shape public life: how churches partner with schools, support economic models that value workers and neighborhoods, invest in the arts, and even help design more beautiful and livable cities. At its heart, this is a call to recover a holistic, biblically grounded vision of shalom—where faith is not reduced to Sunday services or private belief, but becomes a public witness for wholeness in our relationships, institutions, and communities. Show Notes, Resources and Transcript No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Join our subscriber only community called NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE. Get ad-free listening, great member only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is part two of our unabridged interview with Parker Palmer. “Things didn’t come together vocationally for me until I was 50.” At 86 years old, Quaker writer, speaker, and activist Parker Palmer has much to say about living a good life. And in his experience, a good life is often hard-won and counterintuitive. In this episode, Parker covers a lot of ground, offering wisdom gleaned from a life lived with attention to the makings of a good life. He tells about his experience seeking and finding vocation, discovering how a rich life entails the embrace of paradox, and living through three major bouts of depression, which gave him an increased attention to life’s small things.  Show Notes  Resources: ⁠Let Your Life Speak by Parker Palmer⁠ ⁠The Courage to Teach by Parker Palmer⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Similar Episodes: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Actor and Activist: Martin Sheen⁠ ⁠Author of The Shack: William Paul Young⁠  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Transcript⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Want more NSE? ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠JOIN NSE+ Today!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Our subscriber only community comes with bonus content, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets for our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. Start your podcast at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠helpmemakeapodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.  Subscribe to episodes:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Apple⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Amazon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Google⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Us:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Lee:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join our Email List:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ nosmallendeavor.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  See Privacy Policy:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Privacy Policy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is part one of our unabridged interview with Parker Palmer. “Things didn’t come together vocationally for me until I was 50.” At 86 years old, Quaker writer, speaker, and activist Parker Palmer has much to say about living a good life. And in his experience, a good life is often hard-won and counterintuitive. In this episode, Parker covers a lot of ground, offering wisdom gleaned from a life lived with attention to the makings of a good life. He tells about his experience seeking and finding vocation, discovering how a rich life entails the embrace of paradox, and living through three major bouts of depression, which gave him an increased attention to life’s small things.  Show Notes  Resources: ⁠Let Your Life Speak by Parker Palmer⁠ ⁠The Courage to Teach by Parker Palmer⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Similar Episodes: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Actor and Activist: Martin Sheen⁠ ⁠Author of The Shack: William Paul Young⁠  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Transcript⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Want more NSE? ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠JOIN NSE+ Today!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Our subscriber only community comes with bonus content, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets for our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. Start your podcast at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠helpmemakeapodcast.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.  Subscribe to episodes:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Apple⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Amazon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Google⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Us:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Lee:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join our Email List:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ nosmallendeavor.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  See Privacy Policy:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Privacy Policy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices