Notice That

What happens when a visionary academic, a few decades of lived EMDR experience, and a global perspective meet a pair of U.S.-based EMDR trainers hungry for evolution?You get a conversation that challenges everything we take for granted about training, research, and the future of trauma therapy.In a recent episode of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, we had the immense honor of sitting down with Dr. Derek Farrell—clinical psychologist, international EMDR leader, Trauma Aid Europe president, and editor of the forthcoming Oxford Handbook of EMDR. His voice is rare in our community: one that spans the trenches of EMDR practice, the architecture of academic programs, and the politics of international research.And he’s not afraid to say what others only whisper.“EMDR is very, very good at talking to itself,” Farrell told us. “But it would be very useful to be more friendly with other organizations.”Farrell sees the echo chamber. He names the structural gaps. And he points toward the opportunities we’re missing if we don’t open up.The Missed Opportunities of a Siloed ModelSince his first training with Francine Shapiro in the 1990s, Farrell has witnessed the evolution of EMDR from fringe to globally recognized treatment. But he’s also watched how the field’s franchise-style model has limited its ability to join the larger scientific conversation.“If you look at the ISTSS annual conference, how many papers are based on EMDR? Very few,” he noted. “And that’s a missed opportunity, because they’re one of the major political players in informing health policy.”Farrell urges the EMDR community to step out of self-reinforcing training cycles and into more robust, interdisciplinary partnerships—particularly with academic institutions and trauma researchers in CBT and related fields.“We have to stop being so insular. If we don’t, we’ll lose space to something else. The future won’t be in our hands—it’ll move on.”The Case for Academic IntegrationFarrell isn’t calling for the abolition of professional trainings—but he’s asking us to see their limits. Especially in countries where trauma prevalence is high and mental health infrastructure is limited, the standard credentialing pipeline simply isn’t realistic—or ethical.“You can’t make decisions in first-world economies about how third-world health systems should deliver care,” he said, referencing his trauma capacity work in Iraq. “They don’t have 10 years to wait for an indigenous EMDR trainer.”In one particularly poignant story, Farrell described how a UK university removed EMDR from its trauma curriculum entirely because their two course leaders—both widely published psychologists—weren’t credentialed EMDR trainers. The credentialing system, he argued, had failed the field.“That would’ve been an amazing opportunity to bring EMDR into mainstream trauma psychology. And we missed it.”Credentialing Is Not the Enemy—But It Can’t Be the Only PathDespite his critiques, Farrell is no enemy of credentialing. In fact, he sees it as critical for clinician protection and client safety.“If a client is choosing between two EMDR therapists—one credentialed and one not—they will always choose the credentialed one,” he said. “And they should.”But he’s clear: our current model doesn’t serve the spectrum of learners, educators, and clients. We need both professional and academic pathways. We need to distinguish between basic attendance and demonstrated competence. And we need to stop pretending that a seven-day training is equivalent to a psychotherapy education.“The contradiction is we call it a basic training, but we also say EMDR is a powerful therapy,” he told us. “Those two things don’t go together.”What About the Protocol? Isn’t That Enough?In the trenches, EMDR therapists often cling to the eight-phase protocol as a kind of life raft. But Farrell challenged us to see it differently.“The protocol is highly forgiving,” he said. “We miss bits out, we forget the VOC or the negative cognition, and the client still processes. That’s the magic of it. But we need to teach people not just the steps—but why and how to break the rules wisely.”Farrell encourages trainers and educators to move beyond memorization and into meaning—especially when the bulk of clients are not single-incident trauma survivors.“We’re teaching to a model that doesn’t reflect the reality of most people’s caseloads,” he said. “It’s no wonder there’s burnout and drop-out after level one.”So… Where Do We Go From Here?Farrell’s parting thoughts were both sobering and deeply hopeful.“We need to get the AIP model into undergrad. Into graduate programs. Into social work and psychology and counseling degrees. Because when students understand that model, EMDR is no longer a leap. It’s a natural next step.”He’s also spearheading a massive academic effort to support that very integration: The Oxford Handbook of EMDR, set to release later this year.“We’ve built it as a robust, evidence-based academic text,” he shared. “Forty-five chapters. Past, present, and future. It will be the most definitive handbook we’ve had.”Farrell’s message to the EMDR community? The time is now. To break out of silos. To let go of professional tribalism. To prioritize accessibility and integrity over exclusivity.“Francine always said the future is in our hands. But if we’re not careful, it won’t be.”See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

04-10

01:19:24

What If EMDR Was a Fully Somatic Therapy?In the world of EMDR therapy, conversations about somatics are becoming more and more common. But what if somatics wasn’t just a helpful layer to add onto EMDR? What if it was the foundation? What if we could reimagine EMDR as a truly somatic therapy—one that centers the body as the primary source of healing, rather than just another variable to account for?In a recent episode of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, Melissa, Bridger, and Jen gathered to reflect on their first EMDR Basic Training as trainers through Beyond Healing Institute—and to introduce a new series that dares to ask big, paradigm-shifting questions about the nature of trauma and the future of EMDR.Launching Something New: The First Beyond Healing EMDR TrainingAfter two years of planning and waiting for approval, the team finally launched their EMDR Basic Training—and it exceeded expectations. What struck them most was how natural the experience felt. The structure of the training emphasized spaciousness, human connection, and honoring the therapist as a vital part of the therapeutic process. Participants left not just informed, but embodied—ready to bring the work into their practice with confidence and clarity.For Melissa, this experience prompted deeper questions about the nature of EMDR itself—questions that have been simmering for years: What would it mean to practice EMDR from a truly somatic orientation? What would change if we made the body—not the memory—the primary focus?Trauma as the Disallowance of Natural ExpressionOne of the core ideas introduced in this episode is a somatic definition of trauma:Trauma is a moment when the body is disallowed its natural response.Whether through physical restraint, anesthesia, shaming, fear, or relational danger, the body’s innate need to express gets halted. What remains is energy that no longer has a context—a charge without a story. That disoriented energy gets stored in the body and, over time, leads to patterns of dissociation, confusion, and eventually depression.From this lens, trauma work is about recontextualizing that energy—giving it back its story—and then addressing the fear (or phobia) that originally caused it to be repressed. Healing, then, becomes about both remembering and reclaiming what the body lost access to.Suppression, Repression, and Depression: A Somatic Venn DiagramThe team explored the difference between suppression and repression, noting that these terms are often used interchangeably but reflect very different processes. Suppression is a conscious decision to hold something back—functional, temporary, and often socially necessary. Repression, on the other hand, is unconscious and usually the result of overwhelming trauma.Chronic repression, over time, often leads to depression—what Melissa described as a loss of access to the body’s vital energy. This devitalization shows up as apathy, confusion, loss of identity, and disconnection from wants, needs, and affect. The work of trauma healing becomes a process of revitalization—not just regulation.Moving Beyond RegulationOne of the major themes of this episode is the critique of the current cultural obsession with “nervous system regulation.” While regulation is a helpful part of the process, it is far from the whole picture. Melissa invites us to ask:Why are we so afraid of activation? Why do we associate calmness with healing, and intensity with danger?From a somatic lens, regulation is not about minimizing activation—it’s about supporting the body in accurately responding to the environment. That means we need to move beyond the dichotomy of regulated = good and dysregulated = bad. Sometimes, yelling, shaking, crying, or expressing intense emotion is the most accurate and necessary response a body can have.Rewriting the Protocol: Why EMDR Isn’t Somatic (Yet)Despite its growing popularity, EMDR in its standard form is not a somatic therapy. As Melissa puts it bluntly:“The only thing somatic about the standard protocol is one question: ‘Where do you feel that in your body?’”Even the body scan at the end of Phase 6 is often used to check if the client is “done,” rather than to deeply listen to the body’s story. Somatics, in its truest form, isn’t about control or compliance. It’s about contact. Real, honest, present-moment contact with the body as it is—not as we want it to be.The team explored how preparation in somatically-focused EMDR would look radically different. Rather than beginning with calmness and containment, it might begin with something more raw and real:“Welcome to your body. How does it feel to be here? What sensations do you notice? Can you feel your aliveness?”Preparing the Body for HealingIn this series, the team will continue to explore how trauma healing changes when we lead with the body. Upcoming episodes will dive into:The concept of affect phobia—why we’re so afraid of feeling, and how to titrate our way back into sensation.The somatic preparation phase—how to support clients in making safe, loving contact with their bodies before jumping into memory work.The reclamation of sensation and affect—how we guide clients back into vitality in ways that feel empowering, not destabilizing.And most importantly: how to do all of this without losing the humanity, play, and relational connection that makes healing possibleWant to Learn More?If this episode sparked something in you—whether a question, a memory, or a deep resonance—we want to invite you into further learning. Beyond Healing Institute’s EMDR Basic Training is infused with this somatic lens, and there are three opportunities to join us in 2025:🗓️ May 15–17 | Springfield, Missouri (Live + Zoom)🗓️ August 7–9 | Springfield, Missouri (Live + Zoom)🗓️ November 13–15 | Springfield, Missouri (Live + Zoom)You can learn more and register at connectbeyondhealing.comTakeaways for Your PracticeHere are a few reflections you might carry with you into your clinical work:Reconsider what it means to “regulate.” Is calmness the goal—or is presence?Invite the body into the process—not as a data point, but as a guide.Be curious about what was disallowed. What energy, affect, or expression was blocked—and why?Give clients permission to rediscover themselves. Vitality can be confusing at first. Let there be room for exploration, play, and gentle messiness.The somatic turn in EMDR isn’t a rejection of the protocol—it’s a reimagining of what’s possible when we bring the whole human into the room. Including ourselves.What stood out to you from this conversation? How are you thinking about trauma, the body, and EMDR differently? Drop a comment or reach out—we’d love to keep this dialogue going.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

03-27

52:06

In the world of EMDR therapy, it's easy to get caught up in technique—perfecting protocols, refining scripts, and ensuring procedural accuracy. But what happens when we step beyond protocol and start seeing the therapeutic process as an intersubjective experience—one that includes not just our clients but ourselves as well?In a recent episode of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, we had the opportunity to sit down with Jenniffer Weller-White, LCSW, and Nicole Deems, LMFT, both clinicians and EMDR consultants who have been immersed in the work of Somatic Integration and Processing (SIP) for several years. Their journey through EMDR, SIP, and case conceptualization offers a powerful insight into how these frameworks can revolutionize the way we think about therapy—not just for our clients, but for our own growth and development as therapists.Case Conceptualization: More Than Treatment PlanningOne of the core themes of this conversation was rethinking case conceptualization. Traditionally, case conceptualization has been viewed as a tool for treatment planning—a structured way to organize symptoms, identify target memories, and plan interventions. But Jenniffer and Nicole emphasize that it’s so much more than that.“Case conceptualization is not just about treatment planning—it’s about every facet of the therapeutic process, including our own professional development.”At its core, case conceptualization is about making meaning—understanding how a client’s strategies, symptoms, and relational patterns are expressions of their life experiences. SIP provides a language and framework for recognizing these patterns in a way that humanizes them rather than reducing them to clinical formulations.Instead of seeing symptoms as pathology, SIP invites us to view them as adaptive strategies—deeply ingrained responses that once served a purpose. When we shift from problem-solving mode to meaning-making mode, we create space for clients to understand themselves in a new and profoundly validating way.The Language of Strategy: Reframing “Symptoms”A major takeaway from this discussion was the importance of language in therapy. Words shape perception. The way we describe a client’s experiences directly impacts how they interpret themselves.Jenniffer and Nicole shared how SIP has changed the way they talk about “triggers” and “maladaptive behaviors”—terms that can sometimes feel pathologizing. Instead, they use the word “strategy.”“Being able to neutralize language around being ‘triggered’ and instead frame it as a strategy is incredibly softening for clients. It shifts the focus from ‘something is wrong with me’ to ‘this is how I learned to survive.’”This subtle shift can be transformative. When a client moves from feeling shame about their symptoms to seeing them as intelligent, adaptive responses to past experiences, they can begin to approach their healing with compassion instead of self-judgment.Even more powerful? When clients themselves adopt this language.“I love when clients start using the word ‘strategy’ themselves—when they say things like, ‘Oh, I think this is just my system’s strategy to keep me safe.’ That’s when you know a shift is happening.”The Intersubjective Space: Healing Through RelationshipA core principle of SIP is the intersubjective space—the relational field between therapist and client where healing occurs.In traditional EMDR, the therapist’s role is often viewed as directive: administering the protocol, tracking the client’s responses, and moving them through the phases of treatment. While this structure is necessary, Jenniffer and Nicole spoke to the depth that is added when we integrate the relational component.“At first, EMDR felt too prescriptive to me. When I found SIP, I realized it was giving language to what I was already doing—bringing in the human, relational, and nuanced aspects of therapy.”When we understand the intersubjective space, we become aware of what’s happening between us and our clients in real time—the subtle shifts, the unspoken communication, the moments of connection or disconnection. Instead of simply “delivering” EMDR, we learn to co-create the experience with our clients.This is especially important when working with complex trauma, where the wound itself is often relational. Healing doesn’t come from following a script—it comes from the experience of being truly seen and understood.“Disconfirming experiences happen in the intersubjective space. Clients don’t just hear new information—they feel something different in the relationship with us, and that’s what changes them.”Building Community Through Shared LanguageOne of the most exciting aspects of SIP isn’t just its impact on client work—it’s how it has helped build a professional community.Jennifer and Nicole shared how their shared language has transformed the way they collaborate—from peer supervision to case consultation to even co-facilitating trainings.“We can reduce barriers in our field by building shared language. Even if our sessions look different, we can come together with the same foundational understanding.”This vision has led them to expand SIP training in South Carolina, where they are working to bring together clinicians who want to connect through this framework and build ongoing consultation communities.Takeaways for Your PracticeSo, what can you take from this conversation and start using in your own work?Reframe symptoms as strategies – Instead of seeing client behaviors as “problems,” recognize them as adaptive strategies that have helped them survive.Use shared language to enhance therapy – Introduce terms like strategy, intersubjective space, and system activation to help clients better understand their experiences.Recognize the role of relationship in EMDR – Protocols are important, but healing happens in the relational space. Stay attuned to what’s unfolding between you and your client.Build community around case conceptualization – Having a shared framework makes consultation richer, deepens professional relationships, and combats burnout.Upcoming Opportunities to Learn MoreIf this resonates with you, there are some exciting opportunities to engage further:EMDR Canada Conference (March 2025 – Vancouver, BC)We’re thrilled to be presenting Breaking the Relational Enactment: Mapping the Cycle of Repression, where we’ll explore how unconscious cycles keep clients stuck and how we can interrupt these patterns in EMDR therapy.SIP Training in South Carolina (May 2025 – Hybrid Option Available)Jennifer and Nicole are hosting an in-person SIP Level 1 Training, where you can dive deep into this framework and connect with a growing community of therapists integrating these concepts.EMDRIA Conference Proposal (Fall 2025 – Pending Approval!)We’ve submitted our proposal for Enactment-Focused EMDR: Targeting the Space Between Attachment Wounds. This presentation will focus on how attachment wounds shape enactments in therapy and how EMDR can be used to target the space between those wounds, helping clients break free from unconscious relational patterns.If you’re interested in learning more about these trainings, upcoming events, or getting involved in consultation, check out Beyond Healing Institute.SIP, EMDR, and case conceptualization are more than clinical tools—they are invitations into deeper understanding, connection, and transformation. Whether you’re a new therapist or a seasoned clinician, there is always room to refine the way we make meaning of our work.What are your takeaways from this? How has case conceptualization shaped your clinical journey? Drop a comment and let’s keep the conversation going!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

03-06

48:17

Bridging EMDR and Somatic Experiencing: A Conversation with Amanda Johnson & Rachel CagleCurious about how EMDR and Somatic Experiencing can work together? In this episode of Notice That, we explore the integration of these two modalities, the challenges and rewards of blending them, and how they can enhance trauma therapy. Tune in to hear Amanda Johnson and Rachel Cagle share their insights and experiences with Jen.Listen to the Full Episode: Somatic Experiencing and EMDR: Interview with Amanda Johnson and Rachel Cagle Why Blend EMDR and Somatic Experiencing?Many trauma therapists are trained in both EMDR and SE but struggle with how to integrate them effectively. EMDR provides a structured, protocol-driven approach to trauma reprocessing, while SE is a more fluid, intuitive method focused on tracking bodily sensations and releasing stored survival energy. Despite their differences, these modalities share a common goal: helping clients process trauma in a way that feels safe and regulated for their nervous system.Our guests, Amanda Johnson, LCSW, and Rachel Cagle, LPC, share their journeys into both EMDR and SE and how they’ve learned to blend them in practice.💬 Amanda: “I had a profound personal experience with a therapist who integrated EMDR and somatic work. That moment changed everything for me—I realized there was so much more happening in my body than I had been aware of.”💬 Rachel: “Talk therapy alone felt like it was missing something. When I started receiving somatic therapy as a client, it shifted something internally for me. I knew I wanted to bring that into my work with clients.”Where EMDR and SE Complement Each OtherThroughout the episode, Amanda and Rachel highlight specific ways that SE can enhance EMDR, particularly for clients who struggle with embodiment.🔹 Pendulation and Titration: SE emphasizes moving between activation and regulation, mirroring EMDR’s use of dual attention and calm place resourcing. “In SE, we learn to gently introduce activation, pendulate back to safety, and slowly build the nervous system’s capacity for intensity,” Rachel explains.🔹 Tracking the Body’s Cues: EMDR often includes body scans, but SE provides a deeper framework for understanding bodily signals. Amanda describes how SE helps her notice micro-movements in clients—like subtle shifts in breath or posture—that offer valuable information for the healing process.🔹 Expanding Affect Tolerance Before Reprocessing: One of the biggest mistakes therapists make in EMDR is pushing into reprocessing before a client has the affect tolerance to stay with activation. SE teaches clinicians how to gradually increase that tolerance, making EMDR more effective. “If a system doesn’t yet know how to process and release activation, it’s too early for trauma processing,” Amanda explains.Challenges in IntegrationDespite their synergy, integrating these approaches can be tricky. Amanda shares a formative experience early in her training where she presented an EMDR case at a Peter Levine case consultation.💬 Amanda: “I had just finished my EMDR training and had worked with a client using a single-episode trauma approach. When I described this in the consultation, I felt like I had made a huge mistake—like EMDR wasn’t supposed to be used for this client’s complex trauma history. That moment really threw me. I actually put EMDR on the shelf for a while because I wasn’t sure how to reconcile the two approaches.”For Rachel, the challenge has been introducing SE concepts to long-term EMDR clients.💬 Rachel: “With newer clients, I can naturally integrate both approaches from the beginning, but with established clients, I sometimes have to introduce SE more explicitly. It can feel like I’m asking them to do something totally different, and that takes some adjusting.”Do Therapists Need Formal SE Training to Work Somatically?If you’re an EMDR therapist who wants to bring in more somatic awareness but isn’t sure if full SE training is the right path, Amanda and Rachel suggest exploring:✅ Polyvagal Theory: Learning about nervous system states can significantly enhance your EMDR work.✅ Shorter Somatic Trainings: Many organizations offer introductory somatic courses that are less intensive than full SE certification.✅ Personal Somatic Work: One of the best ways to integrate somatics into your practice is to experience it yourself. “If we’re asking our clients to engage with their bodies in this way, we should be doing that work, too,” Amanda emphasizes.Final Thoughts: An Ongoing IntegrationBlending EMDR and SE isn’t about choosing one over the other—it’s about allowing both to influence the way we show up with clients. As Amanda puts it:💬 “EMDR gave me the coloring book—the structure and framework—but SE taught me how to color outside the lines in a way that makes sense for each client.”For therapists who feel torn between structured and fluid approaches, Rachel offers this encouragement:💬 “Everything doesn’t have to fit neatly into a model. The best therapy is relational, responsive, and flexible. Give yourself permission to integrate what works for you.”Connect with Amanda & RachelIf you’re interested in learning more about integrating EMDR and SE, Amanda and Rachel both offer consultation:🔹 Amanda Johnson, LCSW – amandajohnsonlcsw.com🔹 Rachel Cagle, LPC – Connect via Beyond HealingWhat are your thoughts on blending EMDR and SE? Have you tried integrating somatic approaches into your trauma work? Let us know in the comments below!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

02-14

01:04:26

Listen in to hear Jen and Bridger sit down with Kristine Mark-Griffin for a discussion on working with children using EMDR. Christine is the founder of EMDR for Kids. She is an EMDRIA approved Consultant & advanced trainer. She is the author of the award winning EMDR Workbook for Kids and is the lead trainer at EMDR for Kids. Christine’s professional experience has included working in non-profit, child welfare, juvenile justice, community mental health, school-based mental health and higher education settings. Working in these various settings over the years has deepened her knowledge and understanding of complex trauma but has also exposed her to some of the most beautiful stories of healing and resilience. Christine is also a perinatal mental health certified therapist and loves working with expecting and new mamas! She provides a variety of EMDR consultation services & training and welcomes EMDR clinicians to join her offerings below! If you are a therapist who is interested in working towards EMDR certification or becoming a Consultant-in-training (CIT) with Christine, please complete the All EMDR therapists are welcome to join monthly drop-in EMDR consultation groups. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

02-06

01:02:39