Pandora's Box: Lifting the Lid on Menstruation

The fight for menstrual equality has been building for decades, but thanks to the rise in social media and activism the movement gained rapid momentum in 2015: “The Year of the Period”. In this episode, we meet with model and activist Kenny Jones, the first transgender male model to front a campaign around period shame, Kiran Gandhi who ran the London marathon free bleeding, and Sarika Gupta, whose social initiative looks to eradicate period stigma in India. Thankfully, these voices are few among the many that are gaining momentum and moving us forward.

Produced in partnership with Diva International (Makers of the DivaCup) and Media One Creative.

Aine 0:00 This podcast has been produced in partnership with Diva International (makers of the DivaCup) and Media One Creative. This is Pandora's Box: a podcast that is on a mission to uncover how periods affect the lives of those that experience them around the globe. Join us as we travel the world to find real stories by real women and people who menstruate, who are championing change and bringing light to the global impact of menstruation. I'm Aine,  Cait 0:27 and I'm Cait, your hosts.Cait 0:32 Today, we're talking about the future of menstrual products. From using nothing, to rags, pads, tampons, and menstrual cups, the innovation of period products has made it easier and more hygienic for people to be on their periods. I have used tampons, and panty liners, and I didn't really love them. And I was introduced to menstrual cups, but that was when my period started getting super light. So I really liked the menstrual cup, it was so easy, but it just didn't make sense for me at that point in time. So I've been using period panties, which I love because I don't really have to do much, just wash them like normal underwear. And they're great for a super light flow and I don't really have to think about them at all.Aine 1:17 I remember starting out when I was first got my period, like tampons were kind of like a risqué item that nobody really used, I guess. And I remembered there was all this talk at school and you remember learning about periods and everyone would say, "Oh, tampons give you toxic shock syndrome." But then out of necessity, I started using tampons at some point. But I discovered, through this journey actually, the menstrual cup. And it really is a life-changing product. You never really need to think about your period. Conversations around periods have always felt like a dirty little secret. Nobody talks about it. It's just something that happens every month.Cait 1:52 To understand further, we brought in Elissa Stein, who's a menstrual cultural historian, to talk about the struggles women have had with products in the past.Elissa Stein  2:01 I spoke to some people in the Midwest in their 80s. And they said they still remember boiling parties. Every Monday in their town, they have a big iron pot and they bring all their dirty rags and just wash them and the men would leave for the day. And that's how the women in their community took care of things. But it's hard to even find folklore about that because it really is so secretive. You know, the thing about menstruation is that it is always been a shameful, dirty secret. People didn't write about it; people didn't talk about it. And until products came onto the market in the early 1920s, late 1910s, there was nothing about it out there at all. Another thing to keep in mind is traditional underwear wasn't a thing until the 20th century. So there's no way you can even put a pad. And it was when that came into being that sort of changed options for women as well. But women just didn't wear underwear. So mostly the stuff sort of went on to the back of whatever layers you were wearing. And then women would wash things out in cold water in a tub.Aine 2:59 Although products have advanced since the 80s, in the modern day, we still struggle with our period products. There are chemicals and pads and tampons which can lead to toxic shock syndrome. Plus, the amount of waste that comes with having a period is simply unsustainable.Elissa Stein  3:16 I think that for a lot of women, as we are taking more ownership of the process and of our bodies and as the conversation is growing, are looking for alternatives from these heavily-packaged, expensive products that fill landfills, that are not biodegradable, that contain bleach, which isn't healthy for our bodies. So something like a menstrual cup is a really smart option for women who just want to take a different path.Cait 3:42 Carinne Chambers, the CEO and Founder of Diva International, is a champion for menstrual cups. But menstrual cups weren't invented recently. Carinne talks us through their winding history and why cups didn't catch on as soon as they were invented.Carinne Chambers-Saini  3:57 So the history of menstrual cups is really interesting. There have been versions of menstrual cups kind of noted in history, probably for 1000s of years. I mean, this is not a new problem or a new condition that we have to deal with. Women have used sponges and different kinds of collection-type devices for a long time. But the first cup that was commercialized was in the 1930s. And it was patented by a woman in the U.S. named Leona Chalmers and she patented the very first. And they were very industrial, definitely rubber, like a harder rubber type device. And there was probably a good five, six versions that were marketed from the 1930s to the 1970s. There was one in the 1950s called the 'Tassaway', there was the 'Tassette', but one of them was actually a cup, but you disposed of it. And that one actually had gained some popularity at the time and was actually commercialized. And I think what happened is just that whole age of the 50s, where everything had to be proper and clean. And that was like cleaning products, you had to bleach and destroy everything. And it was just women weren't really using as many internal products. Still, pads were the primary products. So I don't think they really ever took off. And it really wasn't until we started doing the DivaCup, and really hitting it hard and trying to create this education and bring it mainstream. And that's one of the things. I think being a pioneer in this category was so difficult and so challenging. There wasn't really anything on the market that had really made it into mainstream. And without being mainstream, without being on the shelf, it would not have been accepted if we could have sold it forever online as a kind of niche product. But the category would not be where it is, without the work that we did in building the distribution. That key point is really I think what snowballed and created this and disrupted this whole industry and created this category. It was there all along. It's just no one had really had any success in mainstreaming the concept.Aine 6:45 Hiding our periods feeds into the menstrual stigma that has existed for centuries, in combination with the vague language around menstrual cups. It created a confusing message for what people are putting into their bodies.Cait 6:57 Today, the menstrual cup has changed lives. People are seeing real benefits to alternatives in the market and realizing that some products aren't as healthy as they appear.Carinne Chambers-Saini  7:05 It was funny because I think when we first started working with one of our agencies, they sent us this document and it said, you know, "We're not claiming that the DivaCup changes lives." And I was like, "That is changing. We have to take that out." I was so upset because the DivaCup changes lives. It really does. And that's not marketing speak, or I'm trying to say that. That is from years and years of what our customers are saying, what they're telling. In my own experience, it changed my life. It really did. Carinne Chambers-Saini  7:39 When we found out about the original cups, and the materials, and they were actually made out of this natural gum rubber. Those products have nitrosamines, which is type of protein that creates allergic reactions, commonly known as latex. And you can develop an allergy with exposed and continued exposure to it. So it's not really ideal material used. So it took a lot of research. Like I honestly didn't know anything when we started. We just loved the concept. And we knew it needed to be modernized. But I had just graduated and I was like, "We need to make the best product that we can make." And through trial and error and doing our research, we figured out that silicone really is, it's the safest material. It's been used for over 50 years, and in lots of medical applications, especially when you use a high-grade medical silicone. We didn't want to put any coloring or pigments or dyes because those molecules are not always permanently bound to the silicone molecules and they can leak out of the material into the body. So our goal was really to create the safest, most natural product. Really, silicone comes from sand. It comes from the earth. And it's not a chemical, like it is a chemical, but it's not a man-made chemical. We felt that it was the best as far as compatibility to the body. Just talking about menstruation helps to normalize the subject and just making it part of our daily lives. We can't improve people's period experience if the topic is surrounded by so much embarrassment and silence and shame. It's just time. You know, it's we need to have these conversations.Aine 9:35 We're lucky that in the West we have access to healthier alternative products. But that's not the case in other parts of the world. In the global south, for example, many people don't have access to basic menstrual necessities and must resort to creating harmful makeshift products. These alternatives make them more susceptible to disease and infection.Cait 9:54 We chatted with Sarika Gupta, founder and facilitator of Safe N' Happy Periods to talk about how the lack of access to affordable menstrual products is impacting rural areas of India.Sarika Gupta  10:06 You will be really shocked in India, in rural areas, as you would have heard as well they're not really aware of what to use how to use and most of them don't have access to sanitary pads because they're not affordable to them. So they end up using 'rags', not in as in rags, but something like, they would take out cotton from their old pillow and use it for a while. So these kind of habits give rise to diseases like pelvic inflammatory disease, which is a very rampant disease in rural areas. And once you have diseases like these, it becomes very difficult to either conceive or to give birth to a child. So i

Aine 0:00 This podcast has been produced in partnership with Diva International (makers of the DivaCup) and Media One Creative. This is Pandora's Box: a podcast that is on a mission to uncover how periods affect the lives of those that experience them around the globe. Join us as we travel the world to find real stories by real women and people who menstruate who are championing change and bringing light to the global impact of menstruation. I'm Aine, Cait 0:27 and I'm Cait your hosts.Aine 0:33 People who menstruate around the world that are lacking access to products. In the UK alone, one in 10 people struggle to afford menstrual supplies. Cait, how much do you think you're spending on period products?Cait 0:43 I think I used to spend $20 a month on menstrual products because I always got the kind of fancy comfortable tampons, I think. But since I've been on birth control, an IUD, I don't get my periods very often. So I got those period panties. And I find them to be fantastic. And they were expensive to begin with, but it's a great reusable option. I don't have to spend money anymore.Aine 1:12 I feel the same about the DivaCup. I was thinking about that the other day, I was walking by the tampon aisle and I just thought, "I haven't bought tampons or pads in a year." But it's just the liberation of never having to think about anything. I get my period and I'm like, okay, here's the thing that I use, and it's just there. There's something really, really liberating about that and I just think it's a revolutionary product.Cait 1:35 I can definitely say that when I was a student and walking into the drugstore, I was like, "Oh, I have to spend money on this. I guess I'll take that out of my budget." But it was something I could always afford.Aine 1:48 Whenever I was a student, or whenever I was just started working and was not earning a lot of money, it definitely felt like a big strain on my finances to have to buy menstrual products. So I can't even imagine what it's like to be in a position where you have to choose to buy medical products or to buy food or to buy clothes. Really, over the course of this process in this journey, so many times I've put myself in the shoes of people not being able to afford menstrual products, and I can't imagine how vulnerable that must make them feel not being able to deal with something that you can't stop. It's flowing, it's coming and not being able to control that, that must be so awful. They can't participate. They don't want to go out into society. That must just be a really awful feeling.Cait 2:33 I would think it would be pretty frustrating, too. Because when you think about it, there's toilet paper for free and public washrooms because nobody can control needing to go to the washroom. Like, that's a normal thing you can't stop. It's the exact same thing with periods. It's not like, "Oh, this month, I'm just going to not have it, I'm going to make that choice." So why aren't they giving out free products for periods as well? It would be really frustrating to be like, I don't have money for this. And this is something I have to deal with, but this guy doesn't have to worry about it.Aine 3:08 So that's interesting that you bring that up, because in lot of the studies that we did and a lot of looking into how periods are perceived, a lot of comments have been made by men, that, "Why can't you just hold it in?" Because they think that we can control the flow and that we choose to turn it on, and it's just like a top. I think we watched a video when we doing research and some guy was like, "Girls are just disgusting. Like, can they not hold it in? I don't pee myself. And they're just like, getting blood all over themselves." Like this is an actual thought that people have about periods because they just don't understand the anatomy. And they think that we're just choosing to bleed whenever we feel like it's so pretty shocking.Cait 3:45 To learn more, we sat down with Dawn Butler in London. Dawn is a government champion for those who can't afford period products.Dawn Butler 3:54 Hi, my name is Dawn Butler. I'm the Member of Parliament for Brent Central. I am the opposition spokesperson. So for the Labour Party, I'm the Shadow Secretary of State for Women and Equalities. I used to be a minister under the last Labour Government and I was the first elected black female minister in the UK. Period poverty is almost like phenomenon that's all of a sudden come to light over the last 10 years. It's quite shocking, you know, the sixth richest country in the world, and we've got children, young menstruators who can't go to school because they're on their periods. We've got menstruators who are going to work and using socks instead of towels or cups. And it's quite a shocking thing, because at first you think, "That can't be happening here in the UK." But we've found it's happening more and more often, as people haven't got enough food to eat. They're having to make the decisions on whether to eat, whether to heat their homes, or whether to get menstrual products. It happens everywhere: it happens in the cities, it happens in rural areas, I mean food banks now have started to provide products for people who are menstruating because there was such a need for it.Aine 5:21 After speaking to Dawn, it was really refreshing to hear that there are people focused on fighting period poverty. The more you hear about this issue, the more shocking and frustrating it becomes because you hear about people in impossible situations where they're forced to sit home and just bleed because they cannot get access to the products that they need. We shouldn't have to suffer in silence or just miss out on participating in society because of something that is a bodily function that is just not prioritized at a government level.Cait 5:50 Being born with the ability to menstruate, it shouldn't mean that you don't get to participate and when I've talked to people here in Toronto about how this happens in the Western world, they're totally convinced that it doesn't happen here. But it absolutely is a problem here. There is period poverty and it surprised me how adamant people can be about their idea that it's not a Western world problem at all. After hearing about how period poverty is affecting individuals around the world, we wanted to hear stories from those who have suffered through this crisis. We visited Rachel Krengel to learn more about her story and how she created an organization called Fourth Wave.Rachel Krengel  6:33 And then, what came out of that was that of six lower-middle-class or working-class women, two of us had a personal experience of menstrual poverty that we've never mentioned before. And bear in mind, we're a feminist collective. We talk about our vaginas constantly, but we never ever have shared these stories. There are so many people who are living in really abject poverty but are just managing to hide it because they're juggling, you know, this week we won't buy any food, this week we were buying the menstrual pads, this week we won't turn the heating on. Between it all, we're just about holding together an appearance that we're surviving and not a lot goes on.Aine 7:19 It was at that point that a news article came out reporting that children from Rachel's hometown were regularly missing schools during their periods because they couldn't afford menstrual products.Cait 7:28 Rachel's vision for Fourth Wave is inspiring. Her organization is determined to make a change. It reminded us about something Dawn said on the topic.Dawn Butler 7:37 It shouldn't be the case that you have to worry about something that happens naturally to you that you can't stop. And governments and organizations and societies should ensure that that isn't the case, and that's wherever you go to work, school, university, or prison.Aine 7:58 Dawn isn't the only political figure who believes that menstrual products should be a right, not an expense. We spoke to Danielle Rowley, a Labour Member of Parliament for Midlothian in Scotland, to hear her story.Danielle Rowley  8:09 I'm Danielle Rowley, Labour Member of Parliament for Midlothian in Scotland. Came into parliament and I had a question about period poverty and I happened to be on my period so I decided to sort of contextualize the cost of, you know, periods that a lot of women face by saying that I'm on my period and talking about how much it had cost me. I had no idea of when I said in parliament I was on my period that it was the first time anyone had said that before. And I've discovered it's not only in the UK, but I don't think anyone has said in any parliament that they're on their period before. It's not being talked about enough, you know, so I think a lot of people might not come out and say, "I don't want to discuss that." But they're not making sure it's high up on the agenda. And that's just, you know, shown by the fact that I was the first person who said I was on my period in parliament. If we had debates on it like we should do, because it's such a huge issue, then someone would have said that before. So it's not getting the prominence that it deserves.Cait 9:12 Dawn was actually in parliament with MP Danielle Rowley when she stood up and spoke about her period.Dawn Butler 9:18 MP Danielle, she stood up. She ran in, actually, sort of out of breath for a debate and said, "I'm really sorry. I'm on my period." And there were a few gasps, I think, in the chamber. And remember, it's a chamber that's not used to women in the first place. And I felt like putting my hand up and saying, "I'm on my period too." And I found it quite an empowering moment and it's a situation where we should be able to just talk about it without feeling dehumanized, without being ridiculed.  Aine 9:50 Change isn't only happening in the UK. In the U.S., changemakers such as Jennifer Weiss-Wolf are fiercely combating period poverty.Jennifer Weiss-Wolf  9:57 So if the people making

Aine 0:00 This podcast has been produced in partnership with Diva International (makers of the DivaCup) and Media One Creative. This is Pandora's Box, a podcast that is on a mission to uncover how periods affect the lives of those that experience them around the globe. Join us as we travel the world to find real stories by real women and people who menstruate who are championing change and bringing light to the global impact of menstruation. I'm Aine  Cait 0:27 and I'm Cait, your hosts. Aine 0:32 This episode is going to be a little bit different than the others. You won't be hearing much from Cait or myself. We're going to be passing the mic Topeka K. Sam, Executive Director of Ladies of Hope Ministries (LOHM). We first met Topeka back in 2019 when we were filming the documentary. She became a very central character in the film. We were just blown away by her story and by the work she does with the LOHM.  Aine 0:56 Some of the most shocking stories we heard when making this documentary were from incarcerated or formerly incarcerated women and people who menstruate. It was very harrowing to hear stories of how these marginalized communities and people are further marginalized and punished just because they have a period. Topeka K. Sam  1:18 As a formerly incarcerated woman, I know firsthand the experiences of having menstruation while incarcerated. I remember the first day I received my period. I'm not talking about when I was in prison, but when I was eight years old, I remember being in school and I just started bleeding. And sorry if I'm being a little graphic, but this is what we go through as women. I remember crying and going to the nurse saying that something was going on with me. They called my mom. And my mom was like, "Oh, well, Topeka. This is what it is." And she started to explain to me how she was seven when she got hers.  Topeka K. Sam  1:54 And I remember receiving this huge piece of cloth that reminded me of a little mini boat that you put in your bathtub, it was so big for my little body. And I got my first purse, because my mother had me put these little pads in this purse and told me that I had to carry them with me to school. And every month I was able to carry a purse while I had these. Topeka K. Sam  2:16 I talk about that particular experience and how it correlates to when I was incarcerated and needing pads. Unfortunately, the pads weren't the size of a boat. They were really thin. They were not what we needed. But what we ended up doing a lot of times, because they weren't giving them out to us, was we had to pay for them. Pads were being used as kind of bartering systems a lot of times with the guards, male guards very often. It allowed me to really, really think through what was happening in this country, how our dignity was being stripped, and how menstrual products and the inequities around those who actually receive them was happening in this country. And there were no conversations that were going on around what happens to women who are imprisoned with periods.  Topeka K. Sam  3:02 I was raised with three brothers, a two-parent home. My parents were together for 58 years prior to my father passing last year. They were franchise business owners. We were the only black family in our neighborhood. I would say I grew up very privileged. We had the best of educations. I laugh and say my father wanted us to be a string quartet because I was trained in piano and flute, one of my brothers in violin, another one in cello, another in percussion. I was captain of every team. I was president of every club. That lets you see what my ambition was. And just the need to succeed, partly because I had parents who did. My mother says I just had that kind of spirit in me of fearlessness and the ability to just do and change the world. But when you have such strong presence, the way you show up in the world actually will determine sometimes what happens in your life.  Topeka K. Sam  3:50 And so I decided that I wanted to go to an HBCU, historically black college, because I wanted to be around other kids of color. So I chose Morgan State University in Baltimore, Maryland. I chose that because a really close friend of the family who I called my aunt Maddie went to Morgan State and told me how great it was. And it wasn't too far from home. And this was my first time away from home. Being there, I was super excited because now I'm in a community with people that were just like me, then also there was fear. The fear was that I was away from home, but I didn't know about anything in life. And so I started to try to find my way. I end up dating guys who were selling drugs, eventually selling drugs myself.  Topeka K. Sam  4:29 One point I had just completely stopped that particular lifestyle. I get a call and I ended up, "Okay, you know what, this is the call that I've been waiting for. I can connect some people together real quick, make some money, open this other business and then that's it. I'm out. One last run."  Or so I thought. So now, I'm in Virginia at a meeting and something just didn't feel right. But what I do know is being arrested and I found myself in a jail, a county jail, in Hanover, Virginia.  Topeka K. Sam  4:57 Before I went in, I was going through uterine issues, and so really heavy cycles. My doctor said I had what was called uterine fibroids. And so I knew going in that I was diagnosed, I was planning to get the surgery that year in 2012. I assumed that because I was still having these heavy cycles while I was incarcerated, I will see if I can get that surgery. And so I applied to do that through the court. I went and got the surgery, or so I thought, and I came back and the cramps were worse, the cycle was heavier. And I said, “Something isn't right.” This did not feel as if anything was actually done. I made a joke earlier, but the seriousness is they were giving us the cheapest sanitary products that they could, and a very, very small amount of them, and as I mentioned with uterine fibroids, often we have very heavy and long cycles. And with that, sometimes I will go through a pack of pads a day. That's how bad it was for me. Aine 5:51 Sadly, so many incarcerated women and people who menstruate have stories about how challenging it was for them to deal with menstruation during their time spent in prison. Topeka introduced us to two formerly incarcerated women named Cass Severe and Naquasia Pollard. Both women now work with Topeka at LOHM, and wanted to share their firsthand experience of menstruating in prison. Cass Severe 6:20  I do recall a horrific experience where one particular day, lots of days, rather, my pad was so, like, saturated with blood that I one point I remember it sliding down my pant leg, you know, and it hit the floor. And it was so embarrassing on top of traumatizing but, you know, that's all I had to work with. That's what I basically got used to at times: just rewrap that same used sanitary napkin over and over again until I was able to obtain something clean. So on top of that, this was affecting my health. Naquasia Pollard  6:58 I remember a time that I was on a visit and I saw it all the way through my clothes. I went to go change and come back to my visit, and the correctional officer said that I was not allowed to do that. Either I sit on the visit and soil my pants or I terminate my visit. I terminated my visit because I didn't want to sit there and soil my clothes. That just doesn't make any sense. It was heartbreaking. Aine7:26 The lack of access to products is not only traumatizing for those who experience it, it brings up some serious health concerns as well. And particularly if somebody is dealing with a health issue that makes their period more difficult or more painful every month to begin with. Topeka K. Sam  7:48 They would give us a pack of pads a month, which sometimes was 12 pads. So you expected to keep a sole pad on for hours in a day, sometimes a day. And then you would have to purchase pads through commissary, and they were costing the same amount of money as you would if you went into the Duane Reade or Walgreens. And so I get to federal prison after being sentenced. And I still had the same issues. And I remember going to the doctor and they told me no, there was nothing wrong. They see that I had the surgery. And I'm like, I know something is wrong with me, we know our bodies. But there they ration the pads out very differently. And so though I was fortunate enough to have the highest paying job, whatever that looks like, $100 a month in prison, I was able to get support from home, I was still only allowed to buy a pack of pads every commissary and so I had to request through medical to get pads prescribed to me because the pads were so very thin and cheap. And I thought it was ridiculous that we actually had to pay for them. Topeka K. Sam  8:46  I remember getting to another prison and I saw a doctor from outside and she touched my stomach and she was like, "Your fibroids are huge." And I just broke down and cried. Because I was like, “Wow. It’s the first time there's a doctor who's actually acknowledging the things that I already knew was wrong with me.” This one particular prison, I was told that in order for me to get that documentation and get prescribed pads from the doctor, that I had to quantify my period. And what that meant is I needed to take the used pads and put them in a brown paper bag and show them to the male officer who was often such on duty, I would open the bag so he would see the pads, see that I used the pads so that he can ration out five more pads.  Topeka K. Sam  9:27 The feeling of pain and the feeling of disgust and humiliation that I felt having to go through that still with just the courage to speak up. I knew that there were so many other sisters that didn't have the resources to get what they needed. They didn't have the strength to fight. I knew that I needed to do something about it. And when I came h

Cait and Aine travel to the Mathare slum in Nairobi and speak to girls struggling to get a proper education because of the barriers they face with menstruation. We also look at period poverty and its effect on individuals in the Western world. Thousands of students in the UK lack the resources to manage basic menstrual hygiene and as a result are denied equal learning opportunities. We’re facing an important yet often ignored health crisis. Pandora’s Box is also an award winning feature length documentary. To find out where the film is currently available to watch, visit Pandorasboxthefilm.com. Produced in partnership with Diva International (Makers of the DivaCup) and Media One Creative. 

Where did this oppression start and why does it still continue today? We dive deeper into the history of female hysteria and the age-old notion: that a woman’s uterus makes her crazy. Pandora’s Box is also an award winning feature length documentary. Please go to Pandorasboxthefilm.com to find out where you can watch the film. Produced in partnership with Diva International (Makers of the DivaCup and Media One Creative)