Personality Poker®

 What this episode coversWhy Spades matter: Their superpower is rigorous problem definition, research, and data synthesis—the foundation of smart strategy and R&D.High vs. Low Spades: Where each gets energy (inward reflection vs. outward sharing) and how that shows up at work.Common pitfalls: Analysis paralysis, undervaluing interpersonal dynamics, missing the big picture, and drifting into “know-it-all” or cynical territory under stress.How to spot a Spade: The questions they ask, the cues they give, and why silence from them does not equal disengagement.Communicating with Spades: Slow down, bring substance, allow thinking time, use email for reflection, and avoid interrupting their analysis.Maximizing Spade contributions: Enlist their expertise, set clear decision deadlines, recognize knowledge achievements, and “sell” with facts and features.Team design insight: Balance Spades with Diamonds (ideas), Clubs (execution), and Hearts (relationships) so decisions are both smart and adopted. Key TakeawaysDefine before you decide. Spades shine when the problem is ambiguous. Put them in front of fuzzy challenges and give them the mandate to clarify scope, criteria, and risks.Progress beats perfection. Pair the Spade mindset with a “build it, try it, fix it” cadence to prevent endless analysis.Respect the pace. Spades think deeply. Provide data in advance, ask pointed questions, and give time for considered responses.Reward with recognition that fits. Articles, patents, peer acknowledgment, and visible ownership of insights motivate Spades more than generic praise.Balance the system. Use Diamonds to broaden possibilities, Clubs to drive timelines and outcomes, and Hearts to energize adoption and stakeholder buy-in. Bottom LineSpades make innovation safer, smarter, and more strategic. Give them the right inputs, time, and recognition—and pair them with complementary styles—so your team can move from insight to impact.Resources📘 Personality Poker by Stephen Shapiro — deepen your understanding of all four styles and how to build balanced, high-performing teams: https://a.co/d/1xWOKjX  Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.

What if the key to stronger teams, more effective leadership, and breakthrough innovation was hidden in a deck of cards?In this episode, Stephen Shapiro takes you inside the world of Personality Poker®, a game that’s been played by hundreds of thousands of people worldwide—from boardrooms in Copenhagen to Fortune 500 companies everywhere. Through laughter and card trading, participants uncover deep insights about their innovation personality and the balance (or imbalance) on their teams.Here’s what you’ll discover in this episode:The Four Suits of Innovation:♠️ Spades – analytical, data-driven, “why” thinkers.♣️ Clubs – structured, results-focused, “how” implementers.♥️ Hearts – empathetic, relationship-driven, “who” connectors.♦️ Diamonds – adventurous, creative, “what if” idea generators.Energy Styles (Numbers): Why introverted “inward” cards and extroverted “outward” cards shape how you show up—and how leaders often emerge from the “high cards.”Thinking Styles (Colors): Black = rational “dot” thinkers, Red = relational “line” thinkers—and why innovation happens at the connections between the dots.The Big Insight: The person you like the least is often the person you need the most. Your missing or opposite suit might drive you crazy, but they also bring the traits your team lacks.The Intersections: Why most people don’t fit neatly in one box, and how combinations like Thinkers, Directors, Influencers, and Builders create powerful team dynamics.This isn’t about putting people in boxes—it’s about sparking conversations, building awareness, and intentionally designing teams that balance creativity, execution, relationships, and results.Whether you’re leading a global company or collaborating with a small team, Personality Poker will help you see yourself more clearly and work more effectively with others.👉 Pick up your copy of Personality Poker today: https://a.co/d/1xWOKjX Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.

In this foundational episode, we explore two essential chapters from Personality Poker that will help you better understand yourself—and how to play the game effectively. Before you try to build your “perfect hand,” it’s critical to understand the difference between the four major styles:✅ Preferred Style – What comes naturally to you and gives you energy⚙️ Adapted Style – Traits you’ve developed out of necessity, often for your job🌟 Desired Style – Who you wish you were, even if it’s not natural🚫 Opposite Style – Traits that don’t fit you at all (and never will)You’ll also learn why distinguishing between these can be surprisingly difficult—and why misidentifying your style can lead to burnout, missed opportunities, or poor team dynamics.We also dive into the concept of your Strong Suit on Steroids—how the traits you might see as flaws (e.g., being disorganized or overly sensitive) are often just overextended strengths. These are not weaknesses—they’re your superpowers in disguise.Then we walk through how to play Personality Poker in three formats:🃏 How to Play:1. Solitaire (Play Solo or with a Close Friend)Use a 3- or 5-pile sorting methodUncover which traits energize you, which ones drain you, and which ones you rarely get to use (but should!)2. Gifting (Play with a Small Team of 4–20 People)Choose cards for yourself and give cards to othersShare heartfelt stories to build trust, deepen connection, and feel seen3. Poker (Play with Larger Teams of 15+ People)Trade and refine your cards like in five-card drawDiscover your ideal role—and who you need on your team for balanceOptional: End with a gifting round to reinforce how others see your strengths 💬 Key Takeaways:Being good at something doesn’t mean it’s your strengthLearned/adapted behaviors can lead to burnout over timeUnused strengths are often hidden opportunitiesThe 2, 3, and 4 cards (your shadow side) may hold your biggest insightsThe goal: build a hand that reflects your true nature, not who you think you should be🎯 Bonus Insight:Personality Poker is based on the Q-sort method, a well-established psychological technique used since the 1950s. But unlike traditional assessments, this one is interactive, fast, fun, and deeply human.Want to play? Grab a deck, pick your format, and let the insights begin.Visit personalitypoker.com to learn more or get your cards. Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.

In this episode, you’ll learn:Why most companies are unintentionally weakening their ability to innovateThe difference between visible inefficiencies and the hidden ones that do the real damageHow innovation and operations can work together without sacrificing long-term successWhat the four innovation styles are—Spades, Diamonds, Clubs, and Hearts—and how they shape team performanceWhy your style is not just who you are, but how others see youHow Personality Poker goes beyond traditional assessments by including self-perception, peer feedback, and unconscious preferencesWhat makes this tool more accurate, more fun, and more team-friendly than traditional assessments 🎯 Main takeaway: Innovation fails when companies focus only on short-term results. You need balance, alignment, and diversity of thought to thrive.NOTE: Other than the opening remarks, the podcast was read by my AI voice clone. It's far from perfect, but it works. 📘 Based on the book Personality Poker by Stephen M. Shapiro, published in 2010 by Portfolio Penguin. The text remains the same as what was in the original book.🎧 Subscribe now and discover how to play to your strong suit while building teams that are ready for anything. Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.

In this debut episode, you’ll discover:♠️ What Personality Poker is—and how it’s radically different from traditional personality assessments♦️ How a high-performance Formula One pit crew inspired the creation of the game♣️ Why your innovation style matters, and how it affects team dynamics and success♥️ The four phases of innovation and how they align with the four suits in a deck of cards🃏 Why your least favorite coworker might be the person you need most🧠 How “playing with a full deck” leads to better decisions, greater engagement, and breakthrough resultsWhether you’re a solopreneur, team leader, or executive, this episode lays the foundation for transforming how you think about collaboration, creativity, and contribution. You’ll also hear why knowing what makes you not tick is just as important as knowing what makes you tick.🔗 Learn more and get your own deck at personalitypoker.comNote: Aside from the brief prologue spoken by the real, live Stephen Shapiro, the audiobook content in this episode is narrated using Stephen’s AI voice clone. While the technology is impressively lifelike, it’s not flawless. Thanks for listening with an open ear! Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.

Hey there, and welcome back!If you’re wondering why your feed suddenly says Personality Poker instead of Invisible Solutions, don’t worry—you’re in the right place.I’m Stephen Shapiro, and I wanted to personally let you know that this podcast has officially been rebranded to Personality Poker as of May 2025.So why the change?Well, Invisible Solutions was all about reframing problems—and that’s still a huge part of what I do. But over time, one tool has consistently created the biggest impact in the shortest amount of time: Personality Poker.It’s not just a game. It’s a fast, fun, and powerful way to understand yourself, your team, and how to build collaboration that leads to real innovation.And that’s what this show is all about moving forward—creating high-performing teams through better self-awareness, stronger partnerships, and smarter collaboration.So if you’re a leader, a team member, or just someone who wants to work better with others—you’re going to love where we’re headed.Thanks for being here, and thank you for sticking with me through this exciting evolution.Be sure to follow or subscribe, because new episodes are coming soon—and we’re just getting started. Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.

Want to be a better problem solver? What if the solution is to get in the mud?In this episode, I interview Joe De Sena. He's the founder of Spartan and is the host of CNBC's No Retreat: Business Bootcamp.This incredibly powerful show puts business people in physically challenging situations as a way of getting them to be more resilient.In this episode, here are some of the questions we tackle:Why Spartan? He feels that businesspeople need to treat themselves like an Olympian - going for the gold medal.Why the TV Show? A lot of people like the idea of being in business but might not be fully committed.What is the Show? The use of military-style training, tackling obstacles to build resiliency skills.Why Physical Challenges? If you can master being under tremendous physical and mental stress and still push through and  keep it together, you're unbreakable.Why Do Businesses Fail? Most businesses fail because they quit when it gets hard.How is the Show Constructed? Each week, three business issues are identified and then physical challenges are constructed to help them get stronger in dealing with them.Why Does It Work? He uses an analogy on how steel is made:you heat it, pound it, and then drown it. His physical process is about tackling the problems and searing it into their brains.What are the Results? Each week, at the end of the show, the positive impact is shared. For example, one company increased sales 170% in just three months.How Has This Been Applied to Your Business? Joe shares how the pandemic decimated the Spartan business and how his process helped keep the company afloat (this is a very compelling story).What are the Three Top Challenges for Businesses? 1) Communication, 2) Process (having Standard Operating Procedures), and 3) Cash.And we covered so much more.We also discovered that we both are Cornellians who lived in Boston and now live in the Orlando area. Small world.This is an episode you won't want to miss. Please share it with others who might find it valuable. And be sure to watch the show on CNBC: https://www.cnbc.com/no-retreat/ Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.

In this freeform podcast episode, I share my thoughts on my next book: DIVOT.A divot is a term from golf. It's when you swing at the ball, if you go too deep, a chunk of grass goes flying, and this is a divot.And that's the premise of the next book - how can we go deep and create more customer value?Rather than changing direction (pivot) it is about deep value creation.In this episode, I cover a number of different topics related to the book:Where do we double down on our investments?How can we identify our differentiator and use that to prioritize investments?How can the divot help create employee engagement and reduce burnout?How can we best motivate employees (compensation, community, contribution)?How can we provide stability for our employees (vs feeling like employees are working in quicksand)?Why divoting is not the about standing still but is about going deeper.The 5D of Differentiation (Distinctive, Desirable, Durable, Disruption-Proof, Disseminated)Why we want a laser focus on investments rather than diluting and dissipating our energies...and much moreI cover a lot of territory in this episode!If you have any stories to contribute to the new book, please drop me a line. P.S. Note that the title may change. The content might shift. And in the end it might be something other than a book. But the general philosophy of whatever I create will remain the same. Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.

To celebrate Thanksgiving here in the United States, I decided to share this segment from my book, Goal-Free Living. Chapter 4 is entitled, "Want What You Have." Instead of looking for more and creating a different future, appreciate what you have now.Before we get to the podcast, I want to share two items:My "Purple Monday" sale  - $50 off the Personality Poker® Starter Kit and a free copy of Best Practices are Stupid if you buy a copy of Invisible Solutions. Sale ends December 3rd. Learn more here: https://stephenshapiro.com/purple-monday/The launch of my new yearlong peer-to-peer mastermind as just announced. Learn more at www.invisiblesolutionsmastermind.com. If you qualify and this is of interest to you, please schedule a discovery call to explore this further.In the podcast I share a number of stories that will hopefully inspire you to have a deeper appreciate for where you are in life, even if things are challenging at the moment.Happy Holidays! Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.

This podcast celebrates 20 years since the launch of my first book, 24/7 Innovation. It also marked the time when I left Accenture and started my own innovation business.  In honor of this special period in my life, I read the Prologue to that book and share some thoughts on where we have come in the last two decades.In this episode, we explore:how innovation and management theory have followed the times of the day (from Taylor to today)why past innovation strategies have focused on "boxes" (activities) while newer models  focus on "lines" (interconnections) why jazz is a good metaphor for innovation in that it is a collaborate and improvisational approach that adapts to new realitiesthe recent progress innovation has made to move towards "lines" rather than boxeswhy relevance and adaptability is more important than ideas or noveltyThank you to everyone who has made the past 20 years possible!Stephen Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.

What if instead of thinking outside the box, you want to find a better box?This is Chapter 4 from Best Practices are Stupid.We explore the power of Challenge-Centered Innovation (CCI) and why it leads to higher ROI than idea-driven innovation.In this episode, we exploreEinstein's perspective on innovation (hint: the problem is more important than the solution)Hollywood's point of view on thinking outside the box (hint: don't)The advantages of Challenge-Centered InnovationThe key things you do up-front with CCI: assign owners, sponsor, resources, funding, evaluators and evaluation criteriaHow ideas are like fishing with a net in the middle of the ocean while CCI is like targeted fishing with the right lure.The content in this episode is crucial to my overall work and sets the stage for future chapters.  Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.

What if asking for ideas is a bad idea? In this episode, I share Chapter 3 from Best Practices are Stupid. In it, we explore why looking for a quantity of ideas can be the downfall of your innovation efforts.You will hear:How several companies started with idea-driven innovation programs that led to the demise of their innovation effortsWhy the signal-to-noise ratio might be one of the most important measures to consider for innovationThe three categories of ideas, and why suggestion boxes lead to a lot of dudsWhy idea programs can be useful for PR or for getting people on-board with innovation, but not for ROIThe behind-the-scenes story of the Deepwater Horizon oil spill innovation efforts This episode provides one of the cornerstones of my work. In the next Best Practices are Stupid episode, we will go even deeper when we explore why you don't want to think outside the box. Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.

What if the best solutions to your internal business problems can be found by looking externally? In this episode, I have a conversation (using the Invisible Solutions® lenses) with my friend and colleague Jon Fredrickson. He is the Chief Innovation Officer for InnoCentive (a Wazoku company) and has 15 years of deep open innovation experience.The conversation covered a wide range of topics including:According to a study conducted by Harvard, over 80% of solvers of InnoCentive challenges would not fit the hiring profile of the clientOne company replicated 15 years of R&D history with one problem with a 60 day challenge - and they got a better answerIf you start looking externally, you can find a kernel of a solution which can be brought back to the organization and adaptedOpen innovation enables parallel processing of problem-solving which can speed time to solutionThere were so many stories, such as how a radiologist solved a problem on how to identify fractures and fissures in the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico to find natural gas or oil deposits.I think you'll really find this conversation fascinating.Learn more about InnoCentiveLearn more about WazokuRead about my strategic partnership with Wazoku/InnoCentiveGet the Invisible Solutions® Lenses Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.

Chapter 2 from Best Practices are Stupid: How Can You Avoid Becoming a One-Hit Wonder?Last week in Chapter 1, I explained the three levels of innovation (event, capability, system). In this week's episode I share more details on what it takes to create level 2 - an innovation capability.When you think about innovation as a repeatable and predictable process/capability like any other part of the business (e.g., finance), it opens up some new perspectives.An innovation capability contains 5 components:StrategyMeasuresProcessPeopleTechnologyWe explore all 5 components briefly - which sets the stage for the rest of the book. The remainder of Best Practices are Stupid is organized around these pieces.NOTE: Although it is not made clear in this chapter, one key difference between an innovation capability and (for example) a finance capability is involvement. Finance is a department with a limited number of people. Innovation is not. Innovation needs to involve the entire organization whenever possible. The role of the innovation team is to set standards and processes that the rest of the organization can use. More on that in later chapters. Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.

In this episode, we explore why speed and power do not lead to long-term innovation. It's not survival of the fittest; it's survival of the adaptable. The content in this episode is from Chapter 1 of my Best Practices are Stupid book.We explore why the ability to repeatedly and predictable evolve your organization is the key to long-term success. I share the three levels of innovation:Innovation as an eventInnovation as a capabilityInnovation as a systemThis is the first episode where I share content from my Best Practices are Stupid  book. Moving forward, every other week, I will share a chapter from the book. And then alternating with that content will be my problem-solving episodes.As this is a different format, I would love your feedback. Please go to www.invisiblesolutionspodcast.com to provide me your thoughts.As always, you can download the lenses at www.getthelenses.com  Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.

We assume randomness lacks a pattern. But there are inherent patterns in randomness. Unfortunately, our brain is wired to find patterns even when they don't exist in order to create shortcuts that speed decision-making. But what if this very process can lead us down the wrong path?In this episode, I start with a fun experiment where I show my (pseudo) psychic abilities. I think you'll like this, so be sure to give it a try.We then explore how pattern seeking can lead us to focus on the wrong problem.I share a client example where they made assumptions about a problem when in fact the real problem was something completely different - caused by a different department. This is an illustration on Lens #21: REAL PROBLEM.Finally, we tackle the topic of confirmation bias where I share a fascinating study that was conducted by the US Army to see how analysts make good (and not so good) decisions.To download the lenses go to GetTheLenses.comTo submit a problem you want solved on this show go to InvisibleSolutionsPodcast.comTo download the US Army study on confirmation bias, go here  Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.

On today's episode, we look into ways of "cloning" someone digitally. In particular, we discuss how to take the knowledge from someone's brain and convert it into workable tools. The  problem statement we start with is, "How can we create software that is so great that customers will be mad if we take it away?"My guest problem solver is Adam Leffert, a freelance, C#,  .Net Software Architect and Developer based in the Boston area. And he is the creator of the Invisible Solutions® Tools.We use the Invisible Solutions® Lenses Chatbot as an example. This conversational tool asks you questions that walk you through the process of finding the best lenses to apply to your problem. We discuss the design principles behind the tool and then we use the lenses to identify ways to enhance the software.The lenses we primarily used are:#14: EMOTION - What emotion do we want people to feel? In this case, anger if the software is taken away.#6: ANALOGY - Who else has solved a similar problem? How do medical chat bots help diagnose illnesses?#3: REDUCE - What if we reduced the size of the problem set? What if instead of focusing on all 25 lenses, how can we go deeper into the 10 lenses that are used most often and have the widest applicability? This is related to lens #1: LEVERAGE.#11: RESEQUENCE - How can we change the timing of the work? How can we get input earlier in the process of developing the software? How can we communicate asynchronously?#24: VARIATIONS - Instead of designing for the exception, how can we design to handle the exception?#4: ELIMINATE - What can we remove from the software to make it easier to use and/or easier to develop?Learn more about the Invisible Solutions® Tools and take advantage of trial access to the Lens Browser. The Chat Bot that we discussed during this episode is still under development.To download the lenses, go to www.GetTheLenses.com  Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.

In order to sell your ideas, you need to be better at using data. But what if leading with data might be the very thing that prevents you from selling your ideas?On this episode, I am joined by my friend and colleague, Brad Kolar. He and I worked closely together at Accenture. He was also the Chief Learning Officer for the University of Chicago Medical Center. Now he helps overwhelmed leaders make better decisions by reducing complexity and increasing clarity.The problem we tackle: "How can we drive data-driven decision-making forward without having to rehash the analysis and background each time we start a conversation?"During the conversation, we used three of the lens from Invisible Solutions:#11: RESEQUENCE - What can we do earlier in the process to increase the speed of buy-in later in the process?#14: EMOTION - Instead of focusing on facts and data, how we can leverage stories and emotion to increase acceptance?#4: ELIMINATE - What if we eliminated the use of charts and statistics in our sales pitch? How could that help improve buy-in?It was a fast-paced and engaging conversation! This is one you won't want to miss!To connect with Brad, go to www.availadvisors.com or LinkedInTo get the lenses, go to www.getthelenses.com Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.

In this week's episode, I am joined by my guest Dan Kaus. Together we tackle the problem: "How can we find time for innovation?" Dan has innovation experience with a wide range of companies and industries, including Accenture, BP, Campbell's Soup, and many others.Dan shared some of this thoughts on this, including:Try to integrate innovation into daily work rather than keeping is separateSimplify innovation so there is less confusionEnsure implementation of high-value ideasWe also explored how using the Invisible Solutions lenses can provide some new insights into this problem. In particular, we used:#1: LEVERAGE - What is the part of the innovation process that will have the greater impact? Where is there currently the biggest bottleneck?#2: DECONSTRUCT - What are the steps of the innovation process and where should we focus?#3: REDUCE - How can we simply the innovation process by reducing steps, ambiguity, or ideas to implement?#7: RESULT - Why do we care about innovation? What's the ultimate goal?#12: REASSIGN - How can we leverage outside resources to help us make innovation a reality?It was a fascinating conversation that I know you will find valuable!You can connect with Dan on LinkedIn at www.DanKaus.comTo download the lenses, go to www.GetTheLenses.com  Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.

In this episode, we explore the power of adventure and new experiences as a means for improving luck, increasing creativity, and enhancing problem-solving skills. This episode is dedicated to the memory of my friend, Dr. Jeff Salz, the quintessential adventurer, who passed away last month.This week we cover:Luck: How being open to ANY outcome (vs looking for a specific outcome) increases the probability of luckCreativity: Why collecting and connecting new experiences is a key to enhanced creativity.Adventure: We learn from Jeff Salz and his thoughts on why adventure helps you overcome fear and take on new opportunities.  Learn more, play the game, and unlock your team’s full potential at PersonalityPoker.comBrought to you by Stephen Shapiro—helping people and organizations create high-performing collaboration, innovation, and teams since 2001.