Pivot Podcast

When established churches struggle to connect with their communities, leaders typically reach for one of two solutions: work harder at the inherited model, or import a successful church plant template. But Dr. Dwight Zscheile and Rev. Ed Olsworth-Peter are inviting us to consider a different approach—one that develops church plant leadership skills through deep listening to the Spirit and to the neighborhood rather than implementing blueprints or programs. In this episode, they discuss their new book, The Starter's Way, which draws on stories from both the UK's Fresh Expression Movement and communities across the United States to explore the spiritual foundations and practices that make for faithful, sustainable leadership of new Christian communities.Dwight and Ed share compelling examples of contextual ministry, from a Wisconsin community that created "Play, Pray, and Popsicles" for families with neurodivergent children to forest churches in the UK where people encounter God in creation. They explore the 15 pioneer principles that shape church plant leadership skills, organized around spiritual foundations (Jesus-centered, prayerful, called, bicultural, and responsive), inward qualities (discerning, self-giving, playful, hospitable, and resilient), and outward practices (noticing, adapting, experimenting, co-creating, and persisting). This conversation offers hope for leaders who want to join what God is already doing in their neighborhoods rather than trying to fix inherited structures or replicate someone else's success story.

Many church leaders notice fewer young adults in the pews and wonder what strategy to try next. But Kristina Frugé, who leads the Riverside Innovation Hub at Augsburg University, has spent years actually listening to young adults. She's discovered something encouraging: they are open to connections to spiritual communities. They're hungry for authentic relationships, meaningful engagement with their real lives, and churches that practice what they preach. The gap isn't about coffee bars or contemporary worship. It's about whether churches lead with genuine curiosity or anxiety about decline. Young adults can tell the difference.In this episode, Kristina shares insights from her work with hundreds of young adults and from the new book "Hungry for Hope: Letters to the Church from Young Adults." She explains why young adults want to be known rather than known about, how "courageous curiosity" creates space for genuine connection, and why grief might be an important place to start. The good news? Churches already have what they need—relationships, practices, stories, and people who know how to love their neighbors. The question is whether we're willing to listen for where God is already at work in the lives of faith and young adults in our communities.

Our congregations are filled with people wrestling with anxiety, depression, and struggles they don't always name out loud. Many church leaders feel the weight of wanting to help people through their mental health challenges, but what does a shared approach to pastoral care look like in a church setting? And how can leaders companion people through these struggles without burning out? In this episode, Dr. Cody Sanders—Associate Professor of Congregational and Community Care Leadership at Luther Seminary and author of Spiritual Care First Aid—shares how churches can become communities of healing and hope. He offers practical examples of collaborative approaches to care, from worship planning to equipping lay caregivers, that honor both the humanity of those who are struggling and the limitations of those who care.You'll discover why companioning beats fixing every time, how to create trauma-informed care practices without clinical training, and practical ways to combat loneliness in your congregation. Cody shares stories of churches doing this well—from pastors passing out donuts at the high school to congregations equipping lay care teams that become self-sustaining. Whether you're a pastor feeling overwhelmed by caregiving responsibilities or a lay leader wanting to support your community better, this conversation offers a sustainable path forward that invites your entire church to share in the ministry of care.

What does it take to become a missional church in today's changing landscape? Bishop Scott Johnson and Deacon Timothy Siburg of the Nebraska Synod ELCA are helping 217 congregations discover the answer—and it starts with listening rather than fixing. In this episode, they share how churches across Nebraska are shifting from asking "How do we get people back?" to "What is God already doing in our community?" Through their Vitality Initiative and Mission Field Nebraska, they're creating permission-giving cultures where congregations experiment boldly, learn from unexpected partners, and discover that faithfulness means joining what God is doing in the present.Scott and Timothy offer practical wisdom for any church leader navigating change, whether in rural or urban contexts. You'll learn how to move from church-centered to God-centered questions, why giving permission is more powerful than providing programs, and how cross-cultural partnerships can transform traditional congregations into vibrant missional churches. They don't sugarcoat the challenges ahead—drawing on Romans 8's image of labor pains, they acknowledge the hard work required. But they also remind us that we're not alone in this work, and that the primary leader of the church is God, not us. If you're feeling overwhelmed by the pressure to innovate while managing traditional ministry demands, this conversation offers hope and a clearer path forward.

Integrating faith and work is one of the biggest gaps in church ministry today. Most Christians spend the majority of their waking hours at work, navigating ethical dilemmas, difficult relationships, and daily decisions that test their faith. Yet what gets talked about in church on Sunday rarely connects with what people are wrestling with Monday through Saturday. Many business leaders feel like church either puts them on a pedestal as "job creators" or critiques them for participating in capitalism—and neither approach helps them figure out how to follow Jesus in the workplace.In this episode, Dr. Michael Binder—a Luther Seminary professor and co-owner of a five-generation HVAC business—shares what he's learned from living in both worlds. Michael helps us imagine what it would look like for churches to create space where people can talk about their real work struggles, what preaching sounds like when it equips people for the six days they're not in church, and why helping members integrate faith and work into their daily callings might be some of the most important ministry we do. If your members spend most of their lives outside the church building, this conversation will challenge you to think differently about faith and work integration.

Gen Z and Gen Alpha have grown up in a world where institutional trust has deeply eroded—and that changes everything about youth ministry. In this episode, sociologist Dr. Josh Packard explains why the ministry strategies that worked for previous generations are falling flat with today's young people. It's not that Gen Z and Gen Alpha hate the church or are rebelling against it. Most simply grew up without any connection to religious institutions at all. Josh shares why the shift from high-trust to low-trust culture means churches must lead with relationships rather than programs, buildings, or pastoral credentials.Josh, author of "Faithful Futures: Sacred Tools for Engaging Younger Generations," introduces the concept of "sacred listening"—a three-part framework that helps youth workers build authentic connections at scale. You'll learn practical tools for managing dozens or even hundreds of relationships, why teenagers' "thin faith" expressions aren't the real concern, what COVID did to young people's social development, and why the critical years between 18-30 determine whether youthful faith deepens or disappears. This conversation offers hope and practical guidance for anyone working with Gen Z and Gen Alpha.

Are you exhausted from trying to be the perfect church leader who has all the answers? Nicole Massie Martin, COO of Christianity Today and author of "Nailing It: Why Successful Leadership Demands Suffering and Surrender," introduces us to cruciform leadership—a revolutionary approach that places the cross at the center of how we lead. Drawing from her journey from corporate consultant to ministry executive, Nicole reveals how most leadership models ignore the very heart of Christian faith and why pastors are burning out trying to lead like the world instead of following Jesus.In this powerful conversation, Nicole shows us what it means to replace perfectionism with perfect union with Christ, how to let God set the pace instead of competing with other churches, and why authentic vulnerability is what congregations are actually hungry for. Through cruciform leadership, church leaders can move from trying to be their congregation's savior to pointing people toward the real Savior, discovering the abundant life that comes through embracing the way of the cross rather than chasing worldly success.

Many church leaders today feel trapped in unsustainable patterns of solo ministry, carrying everything from sermon prep to pastoral care to vision casting on their own shoulders. Dr. Eun Strawser, a physician, author, and church planter in Hawaii, discovered that these church leadership best practices aren't actually biblical at all. In this episode, she shares how moving from exhausted solo leadership to shared community leadership transformed her ministry from one community to 12 missional communities serving over 650 people, all while maintaining her medical practice and raising three children.Eun reveals the "four H's" of biblical leadership (humility, honor, hospitality, and hope) that create better leaders than secular markers of control, crowd, and contribution. Through compelling stories from her Hawaii context, including leaders like Kelsey who serves 500 seniors and Melissa whose community provides school supplies for 1,000 families, listeners will discover practical church leadership best practices for identifying, developing, and empowering leaders throughout their congregations. Whether you're feeling isolated in ministry or looking to multiply your impact, this conversation offers a roadmap for sustainable, Kingdom-focused leadership that actually works.

The 90% of American congregations with fewer than 200 weekly attendees are gifted communities of faith. They are strategically positioned ministries with unique small church advantages for this time. In this episode, Brandon O'Brien, author of the newly revised "The Strategically Small Church" and director of global thought leadership for Redeemer City to City, challenges the narrative that bigger automatically means better in church ministry. Drawing from nearly two decades of serving pastors worldwide, Brandon reveals how small churches possess distinct small church advantages including radical particularity, authentic community, and the agility to contextualize ministry for specific populations that larger congregations simply cannot replicate.Brandon shares practical insights about leveraging small church advantages through asset-based thinking, focusing on worship, formation, and mission as a minimally viable ecclesiology, and embracing authenticity as a powerful evangelistic tool in our current cultural moment. Whether you're pastoring a rural congregation of 15 or an urban church of 150, this conversation will help you notice your assets and strategic strengths for ministry and mission in this time. God loves congregations of all sizes. Smaller membership congregations are strategic powerhouses positioned for meaningful mission and ministry in your particular community. Discover why the future of faithful church leadership may well depend on understanding and maximizing these essential small church advantages.

In part two of our conversation with Dr. Kara Powell, Dr. Jake Mulder, and Ray Chang from Fuller Seminary, we dive deep into the practical aspects of transforming church organizational culture. Harvard Business Review reports that 70% of change efforts fail, but these researchers have discovered why some churches successfully navigate transformation while others struggle. The key lies not in solo leadership or quick fixes, but in building diverse transformation teams that can effectively guide change through four essential zones: here, there, who, and how. Our guests share compelling stories of churches that shifted from spectator-based ministry to empowering communities of co-creators, demonstrating how effective church organizational culture change happens when the right people stay at the table long enough to discern God's direction together.Whether you're a pastor carrying the weight of change alone or a church leader seeking practical strategies for engaging your congregation in transformation, this episode offers hope and concrete tools for developing a future-focused approach. Learn why starting with "who" is more important than starting with "why," discover practical exercises for imagining your church's future through Scripture and community discernment, and explore how Jesus modeled the most effective change leadership principles. From building transformation teams with the right mix of authority and responsibility to creating church organizational culture that naturally develops disciples who live out their faith in daily life, this conversation provides a roadmap for sustainable church transformation rooted in theological conviction and practical wisdom.

Is your church organizational culture stuck in patterns that no longer serve younger generations? After working with over 1,000 congregations through their Growing Young Cohort, researchers Dr. Kara Powell, Dr. Jake Mulder, and Raymond Chang discovered that thriving churches aren't distinguished by their programs or budgets, but by their willingness to transform their church organizational culture around three key checkpoints: relationally discipling young people, modeling kingdom diversity, and tangibly loving neighbors. These aren't flashy new strategies but research-backed, kingdom-oriented practices that create the kind of church organizational culture where faith naturally forms across generations.In this hopeful conversation, the co-authors of "Future Focused Church" share why they believe "the best days of your church are ahead" and reveal how small wins can reshape entire congregations. Learn why "culture eats strategy for breakfast," discover the four essential skills for leading change (here, there, who, how), and hear practical stories of churches that moved from programs to people, creating meaningful community in our post-pandemic world. Whether you're struggling with declining attendance or wondering how to engage diverse communities authentically, this episode offers both theological grounding and practical hope for transforming your church organizational culture.

What does authentic Christian leadership actually look like in today's cultural moment? Jason Jensen, Vice President of Spiritual Foundations for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship USA, discovered the answer through 29 years of ministry at UC Berkeley—one of the most challenging campus environments in the country. After his proven Bible study techniques fell flat in a cross-cultural context, Jason learned that authentic Christian leadership flows from character formation, not charisma or methodological mastery. His supervisor's simple question—"What do you experience in my leadership?"—launched a transformation that would reshape his entire understanding of spiritual authority.Drawing from the Gospel of Luke, Jason reveals why the most influential leaders in God's story are often the unexpected ones, and why aiming for "healthy and holy" beats "smart and fast" every time. He shares how authentic Christian leadership develops through integrity, community discernment, and learning to follow God's movement rather than trying to fix institutional problems. Whether you're a pastor, ministry leader, or volunteer stepping into leadership roles, this conversation will challenge you to rethink what true spiritual authority looks like and discover how to lead as "secondary supporting cast" in God's ongoing story.

What if the struggle many churches face with forming deep, lasting disciples is an invitation to rediscover catechesis, the ancient practice that transformed the early church? For three centuries, when Christianity was just one option among many in a pluralist culture, the church developed a patient, comprehensive approach to catechesis that formed people in the basic building blocks of thinking, praying, and living as Christians. Dr. Alex Fogleman, author of "Making Disciples: Catechesis in History, Theology, and Practice," explores how this ancient wisdom can revolutionize modern discipleship formation.In this conversation, Alex reveals how catechesis addresses today's cultural fragmentation through what he calls a "pedagogy of enchantment"—formation that goes beyond mere information to create genuine encounters with the living God. Discover why effective catechesis takes time, how to practice "counter-catechesis" against competing cultural creeds, and practical steps for implementing this transformative approach in your church context. Whether you're wrestling with surface-level Christian education or seeking deeper formation practices, this episode offers ancient solutions for contemporary discipleship challenges.

Most churches have fallen into the trap of only discussing money during budget season or stewardship campaigns, focusing solely on what people give rather than how they live. But what if there's a way to go beyond the tithe and help people navigate their entire financial lives through the lens of faith? Grace Pomroy, Director of the Stewardship Leaders Program at Luther Seminary, discovered this gap when she asked a room of stewardship leaders a simple question that left them speechless: "What's one way you've managed money faithfully that didn't involve giving it away?"In this episode, Grace shares insights from her Faith and Money Learning Lab about how congregations can move beyond the tithe toward holistic financial discipleship. She reveals practical approaches for creating safe spaces where people can explore what it means to spend, save, and earn money faithfully, including spiritual practices that start with God's love rather than shame. Whether you're a pastor, lay leader, or someone wrestling with how faith intersects with your financial decisions, this conversation offers hope for engaging money conversations that transform lives rather than just fund budgets.

Church leadership challenges seem to multiply daily in today's uncertain ministry landscape. Declining attendance, budget shortfalls, aging facilities, and disengaged members can create an endless stream of problems that feel urgent to fix. But what if all the energy spent on fixing is actually getting in the way of what God wants to do? In this special Q&A episode, Pivot Podcast hosts Terri Elton, Dwight Zscheile, and Alicia Granholm address some pressing church leadership challenges facing pastors and ministry leaders today, offering a radically different approach rooted in biblical wisdom.Rather than providing quick fixes or new programs, the hosts explore how to shift from a fixing mindset to one of listening and discernment. They discuss why encounters with the living God matter more than perfect programming, how to distinguish between institutional decline and the necessary dying that leads to resurrection, and practical ways to move toward collaborative ministry models. Whether you're wrestling with questions about preaching authority, lay leadership development, or simply feeling overwhelmed by church leadership challenges, this conversation offers hope and wisdom for navigating faithful ministry in changing times.

Many congregations today find themselves wrestling with inherited buildings that no longer fit their present reality—spaces that are underutilized, expensive to maintain, and disconnected from their neighbors. But what if reimagining church spaces could transform these perceived burdens into powerful assets for community flourishing? Tim Anderson and Tabitha Montgomery, co-executive directors of Flourish Placemaking Collective, have spent years helping churches discover exactly that possibility.In this conversation with host Dwight Zscheile, Tim and Tabitha share their journey from community organizers searching for programming space to consultants helping churches practice what they call "placemaking"—centering the broader community rather than just congregational needs when thinking about church facilities. They discuss the practical steps churches can take when reimagining church spaces, from honest self-assessment to developing a "theology of space," and share inspiring examples like their own Center for Belonging, where a unused church basement became home to seven thriving nonprofit partners. Whether your congregation has 15 members or 150, this episode offers hope and practical wisdom for stewarding church property in ways that serve both faithful mission and neighborhood flourishing.

How do you maintain Christian identity in a culture where Christianity is "merely one option among many"? Church historian Dr. Stephen Presley argues that today's believers face challenges remarkably similar to those of the early church—and can learn much from how ancient Christians navigated their complex cultural moment. Rather than withdrawing from society or seeking political dominance, early believers practiced what Stephen calls "cultural sanctification"—being fully present in pagan spaces while maintaining distinctly Christian identity through quiet evangelism, deep formation, and faithful citizenship.In this conversation, Stephen shares how early Christians like Polycarp could respect civil authority while refusing to compromise their faith, why conversion involved both catechesis and liturgical formation, and what quiet evangelism looked like in practice. He offers practical guidance for local church leaders who want to engage their communities faithfully without retreating from the world or compromising their Christian identity. Stephen is Associate Professor of Church History at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and author of "Cultural Sanctification: Engaging the World Like the Early Church."

Religious decision making can feel overwhelming when you're caught between equally important values or facing an uncertain future. In this episode, Dr. Angela Williams-Gorrell shares her practical framework for faithful discernment that emerged from her own difficult choices, including leaving a tenured academic position and navigating divorce. As both a practical theologian and someone who has walked through complex decisions, Angela offers a process that honors both human wisdom and divine guidance, moving beyond quick fixes to help listeners engage in meaningful religious decision making.Angela's approach to religious decision making includes five key phases: recognizing the "stirring" that signals change, actively surrendering to God's guidance, working constructively with emotions, sifting through competing values and convictions, and finding "sated joy" in faithful choices. Throughout the conversation, she emphasizes that emotions are "incredibly helpful teachers" in the discernment process and challenges the false binary between rational and emotional decision-making. Whether you're a pastor facing ministry challenges, a leader navigating organizational change, or someone at a personal crossroads, this episode provides both theological depth and practical tools for making decisions that align with your faith and values.

What if the solution to declining church participation isn't better programs, but joining neighbors where they already are? Pastor Shannon Kiser, Senior Director of Fresh Expressions North America, shares how her congregation at Riverside Presbyterian transformed from hosting 2,000 kids once a year at their "Slop Fest" mud Olympics to creating ongoing relationships through fresh expressions of church. Their bold move - selling donated land and opening a seven-day-a-week coffee shop with indoor playground - turned their half of an office building into the community's favorite gathering place for families.Shannon reveals the "who before what" principle driving fresh expressions across denominations, from dinner churches to workplace ministries. She offers practical first steps any inherited church can take to connect authentically with neighbors, including how to see your community with "the eyes of Jesus" and why one church's simple question to their local high school - "Who's the most underserved group here?" - changed everything. Perfect for church leaders feeling stuck between maintaining existing programs and wondering what God might be calling them toward in an era of rapid cultural change.

Many church leaders find themselves exhausted by traditional programming that no longer connects with their changing neighborhoods. In this episode, discover how fresh expressions can move you beyond fixing declining programs to creating vibrant new forms of faith community. Host Dwight Zscheile speaks with Shannon Kiser, Senior Director of Fresh Expressions North America, about her transformation from VBS burnout to pioneering fresh expressions that bring diverse families together through shared activities like soccer and art.Shannon shares the "loving first journey" - a listening-first approach to developing fresh expressions that begins with discerning where God is already at work in your community rather than planning in committee rooms. Learn how to identify and release pioneers, supporters, and permission givers for fresh expressions in your congregation, and discover why fresh expressions actually energize inherited churches rather than competing with them. Whether you're struggling with volunteer recruitment, seeking to connect with your neighborhood's diversity, or wondering how to move from membership-focused to discipleship-centered ministry, this conversation offers practical insights into fresh expressions that create space for authentic community engagement and spiritual formation.