Plato's Pod: Dialogues on the works of Plato

Book XII is the final chapter of Plato’s longest and last dialogue, The Laws, and addresses the challenge of how a community can thrive when its leaders act against the collective interest. Having set out a novel constitution that promotes the virtue of citizens and leaders in Crete’s new colony, Magnesia, the three characters in the dialogue turn their attention to protecting the colony from vice that sometimes arises from the greed and self-interest of rulers. On July 21, 2024, members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups met to consider the proposal discussed by the Athenian, Clinias from Crete, and Megillus from Sparta to implement an office of scrutineers to oversee Magnesia’s Guardians of the Laws. The proposed solution avoids an infinite regress of leaders overseeing other leaders by giving the independent scrutineers the power to review but not to legislate, and it further strengthens the colony’s virtue and peace with provisions governing ambassadors and guarding against foreign influence. Will their provisions be sufficient? In our next and final episode on The Laws, we’ll discuss the Nocturnal Council, which is an additional pillar the three characters will add to Magnesia’s constitutional framework to guard the Guardians.

Book XI of Plato's last and longest dialogue represents a dramatic shift in tone from Book X, where we began our series on The Laws eleven episodes ago. On July 7, 2024, members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups convened to consider the thirty-three laws that the Athenian proposes to Clinias and Megillus for the regulation of trade and property in Crete's new colony, Magnesia. Some of the Athenian's laws are exceptionally harsh, including one that would allow a passer-by over the age of thirty to administer a beating with impunity to any seller in the market who quotes two different prices in a day for his goods. In this book, the Athenian is dramatically different from Book X and the previous books. Does Clinias, who is to be among Magnesia's first rulers, see any contradictions in what the Athenian proposes in Book XI? Has the Athenian been faithful to his previous assertion that all laws must be prefaced by a lengthy, reasoned preamble, or do his thirty-three laws on the distribution of wealth rely more on tradition and less on reason in the resolution of often extremely contentious disputes over property? Participants engaged in a spirited discussion on these and other questions, as we set the stage to complete The Laws in our next two episodes.

In our eleventh meeting on Plato's longest and final dialogue, we set aside Book VIII and moved from Book VII to read selections from Book IX. In Book IX, the Athenian, Clinias from Crete, and Megillus from Sparta address the practical questions of administering justice for those in Crete's new colony who might commit evil acts. On June 23, members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups contributed thoughts to the approaches suggested by the Athenian, the first being that the laws should have preambles to persuade with reason those who might consider unjust acts. The analogy of a doctor having greater success treating a patient not just by prescription but also with education drew comments, as did the Athenian's conclusion that in certain cases the death penalty is warranted. The Athenian's philosophy that no one acts unjustly except against his will - that no one willingly does injustice - was another focus of the discussion. We began our series on the Laws with Book X, which presents Reason as central to the universe and the first cause of all physical things, and in Book IX the Athenian demonstrates the application of reason in confronting injustice.

In our series on Plato’s longest and last dialogue, The Laws, on June 9, 2024 members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups turned to Book VII. There, the three characters – the Athenian, Clinias from Crete, and Megillus from Sparta – discuss the raising of children in Crete’s new colony, Magnesia. They begin by exploring the harmony of the colony’s laws with the customs and habits of its citizens, then they discuss the instruction of children. The Athenian ends by explaining that appreciating the relationships of numbers and shapes can deliver understanding of our individual limitations and collective potential in the universe. Some intriguing ideas emerge with respect to motion: that a harmony of the immaterial soul and material body in the motions of dance and song dispel the disharmony of fear, that the gods love us as a child loves playing with its toys, that idleness leads to corruption, and that there is fundamental incommensurability in the motions of the universe centred on Reason, whose role is to moderate the frequent conflicts between needs and pleasures.

In Book VI of his last dialogue, The Laws, Plato has the Athenian, Clinias from Crete, and Megillus from Sparta discuss the governing structure for Crete’s new colony, to be called Magnesia. It’s a mixed system involving elements of democracy and monarchy, and one that places responsibility on every citizen to perform duty for the community and to choose the Guardians of the Laws through a rigorous system of vetting. On May 26, 2024, members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups discussed the Athenian’s proposals for the government of the colony with a view to securing peace and instilling virtue in the citizens and rulers. Many intriguing questions were raised about the unique project of establishing a colony with no prior history, and Crete’s role was cast as that of a parent whose responsibility is to deliver its child, Magnesia, into the world while preparing to free the colony of its oversight so the community can flourish on its own.

In Book V of Plato’s Laws, only the unnamed Athenian speaks while the other two characters, Clinias from Crete and Megillus from Sparta, listen to his presentation on the power of the soul, harmony in human behaviour, and the just division of property for Crete’s new colony to be called Magnesia. On May 12, 2024, Plato’s Pod held its eighth meeting on Plato’s longest and last dialogue, with members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups participating. We began by listening to the Athenian’s compelling exposition on the nature of the soul as the master in us, with the body as its slave. The Athenian continues by explaining how the virtuous soul gains happiness by moderating pains and pleasures, and his proposition that the new community should be “purged” of those who cause disharmony provoked a discussion among the participants on questions of ethics and the distinction between religious and secular ethics and laws. Book V ends with the Athenian’s famous and curious proposal that 5,040 is the ideal population of a community. What did Plato, who sprinkled mathematics and geometry throughout his dialogues, intend to convey with this number?

Book IV of Plato's longest dialogue, The Laws, places the spotlight on the qualities of virtuous leadership as the three characters - the unnamed Athenian, Clinias from Crete, and Megillus from Sparta - discuss the establishment of Crete's new colony. The skill of the leader, says the Athenian, must help guide the colony through the risks and rewards of chance and opportunity. These, he says, reign supreme in the universe where God, not man, is the measure of all things. A spirited discussion ensued when members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups convened on April 28, 2024. We brought the themes of The Laws squarely into the 21st century, as participants raised similarities between the discussion written 2,400 years ago and the current global political situation. One member recalled that God, as defined in Book X, is Reason, and Reason is both the origin and middle of the universe. We discussed the possible benefits of the lengthy justifications of laws that the Athenian introduces. We also noted that at several points Book IV reminds us that the colony will embody a mixture of political styles, partially democratic and partially monarchical, like the constitutions of Crete and Sparta which are the homes of two of the three characters.

Our discussion on Book III of Plato’s longest dialogue, The Laws, began by considering the consequences of natural cataclysms that invariably befall humanity. Plato opens the book with the emergence of early human communities that begin with goodwill when people are few and resources are relatively abundant, and many fascinating observations emerged when members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups convened on April 14, 2024 to consider this and the other themes of Book III. One participant asked whether humans are inherently bad, and others highlighted Plato’s understanding of human behaviour in the context of political economy, a modern field of study, and that the rough edges of reason are best tempered by drink and music as we age. Book III focuses on the social benefits of concord between the extremes of pain and pleasure, on the one hand, and on the other hand reason – which Plato wrote in Book X is in the very middle of the universe. Book III stresses the importance of education, appreciation for proportion, and inculcation of a common sense of virtue among members of a community, which are topics that yielded some deep insights in our discussion.

Our coverage of Plato’s longest dialogue, The Laws, continues with a discussion on Book II, building on the connection of virtue and happiness that was emphasized in Book I. As the Athenian, Cretan, and Spartan proceed in considering the ideal framework for a constitution, the theme of harmony in the soul and in the community is central to Book II. How are children to be educated, to instill in them a sense of virtue and to find happiness in its pursuit? When members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups convened on March 24, 2024, questions were raised about a perceived elitism in Plato and whether his educational approach is a form of indoctrination, any more than modern education might be considered as such. In any event, some form of understanding is required to find virtue in the “general concord of reason and emotion,” and Book II focuses on learning to judge the consequences of pleasure and pain that motivate human behaviour. We’ll follow in our next episode with Book III, beginning where Book II ends highlighting the importance of correctly determining proportions and fidelity in representations.

If the constitution for Crete’s new colony, Magnesia, is to succeed in setting the conditions for virtue among its citizens, self control and courage will be required to conquer the pains but equally the pleasures that visit every human life. This is the conclusion of the Athenian, Clinias, and Megillus in the second part of Book I of Plato’s dialogue The Laws, which highlights the benefits of harmony to a society that equips citizens both to govern and to be governed. Members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups met on March 3, 2024 to explore these themes and consider parallels to modern social issues, when virtue is now seldom equated with happiness as it was when the U.S. Constitution was framed some 2,100 years after Plato’s writing.  And what of the Athenian’s encouragement for citizens to engage in drinking parties as a test of virtue and self control? It’s both a curious and amusing feature of Book I that we’ll pursue when we read Book II of The Laws in our next meeting, rescheduled to March 24.

Plato’s Pod began discussing Book I of Plato’s longest dialogue, the Laws, which advances the argument for the constitution of Crete’s new colony to cultivate the virtue of its citizens. It’s unlike the war-focussed constitution of Crete itself, represented in the discussion by the character Clinias, and the laws of Sparta whose spokesman is Megillus, but together with the unnamed Athenian they agree that a society of virtuous citizens will be peaceful and enduring.On February 18, 2024, members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups turned to the dialogue’s beginning armed with knowledge of Book X, which opened our extended series on the Laws by exploring Plato’s presentation of the universe as having a soul and, at its core, the supremacy of Reason. Everything comes to be from a cause and Reason and, in Book I, virtue is presented as the reason for a peaceful and just society.Is there a lesson for the world now, 2,400 years after Plato wrote the Laws, in the pursuit of collective virtue as a higher good than the quest for individual freedom?  Would a focus on virtue replace the present discord with harmony? Our discussion covered many of the practical considerations including security and protection of material possessions, the problems of measuring cause and effect over time, and the benefit of citizens who (in the words of the Athenian) know both “how to rule and be ruled as justice demands.” Such skill requires self control, a subject we’ll discuss in our next episode when we will cover the second half of Book I of the Laws.

Plato's Pod continues its series on Plato's longest work, The Laws, picking up where we left off two weeks ago with the second part of Book X, near the end of the dialogue. In Book X, the three characters - an unnamed Athenian speaking with Clinias (from Crete) and Megillus (from Sparta) - set out the logic for reason as the primary cause of the universe, and reason's central function in the soul's moderation of need and desire. But have the three gone too far in prescribing the death penalty for any citizen of Crete's new colony, Magnesia, who refuses after every attempt at explanation and reconciliation to acknowledge reason as a god? On February 4, 2024, members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups met to consider the arguments. Is it just to impose reason in the form of a "state religion," one participant asked, or have the Athenian, Clinias, and Megillus adequately established that reason is no longer a matter of belief but a matter of fact? How do they define "impiety," for which death is the ultimate penalty, and is it fair to see it as a disease and demand that non-believers justify themselves? Some fascinating perspectives were offered in our discussion on the very different view of the universe and soul that is presented in Book X, which we will revisit when we turn to the beginning of The Laws in our next episode.

On January 21, 2024, Plato's Pod began its extended series on Plato's longest and perhaps most enigmatic and impenetrable dialogue, The Laws, which is said to have been his final work. Members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups began by discussing Book X, near the end of the dialogue, which features Plato's cosmology. The immaterial soul, says the unnamed Athenian speaking with a Cretan and Spartan, is the oldest thing in the universe, older than material physical matter and therefore the primary cause of all motion. Our discussion ranged from Plato's definition of "god" and the soul's power of persuasion, to the basis of the soul's laws. Are the laws rooted in universal nature, or in the time-bound variability of convention? Many fascinating points were raised, setting the stage for the second half of Book X in our next episode.

Plato brought the legend of Atlantis to the world in the Timaeus, and in the Critias provided many details of the fabulously wealthy and technologically advanced society that fell into disharmony and disappeared in a great earthquake 9,000 years earlier. As the character Critias relates the story, over time the Atlanteans gradually forgot their divine origin from the god Poseidon and began to pursue material wealth, losing their harmony and bringing upon themselves the punishment of Zeus. On December 3, 2023, members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups addressed the curious ending of the tale told by the character Critias, just as he was about to quote the words of Zeus. Was this cliff-hanger, “and he said …” a theatrical device of Plato, or a case of lost writing, or was Plato telling us that no human can know the mind of a god? The theme of memory plays throughout the dialogue, and Critias says that memory is particularly difficult when opinion applies in representing human actions over time. Was the ancient story that Critias relates a warning to the Athenians of his time about social constitutions like those of Atlantis that become too rigidly rooted in the past, and are there warnings in it for our time? The mystery of Atlantis has endured for 2,400 years since Plato’s writing, and in our discussion we may have found some clues to understanding the lessons of Atlantean history.

Plato’s Pod concluded its revisiting of Plato’s Timaeus, covering from 53(a) to 72(d) with a focus on sensory perception in relation to triangles and what have come to be known as the five Platonic solids because of this dialogue. It was 2,400 years ago, when Plato wrote Timaeus, that he revealed to the world knowledge of the only five regular solids in the universe. Why did Plato, who was a geometer as well as a philosopher, go to great lengths to make the character Timaeus discuss triangles and the five regular solids in such detail? A fascinating discussion ensued on November 18, 2023 when members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups brought forth ideas on our souls’ capacity for measurement of the “necessities” in the surrounding realm of Becoming, and the ethical implications of our measurements. The exceptional properties of the five Platonic solids were discussed, and perhaps most intriguing was one member’s question about the spherical universe that Timaeus presents: “Is there a triangle in the very center of the sphere?”

How does perception of shape relate to our understanding of time, when everything we see, touch, taste, smell, and hear is in a constant state of motion and change? The question occupied members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups on November 5, 2023 in reading the assertions of the astronomer Timaeus on the interplay of proportions and probabilities in a spherical universe with a soul circling around its middle. Beginning at 48(a) in the dialogue, Timaeus introduces the concepts of Necessity, a container for the limits of things in the process of Becoming, and the four fundamental physical elements of earth, fire, water, and air – the latter two of which intermediate the first two. What does all of this mean? And what came first in the universe: physical objects, or intelligence? We will pick up in our next episode where we left off in this, with triangles and the five Platonic solids.

Plato’s Pod continues its coverage of Plato’s Timaeus, from 30(d)-47(e) where the astronomer Timaeus explains the construction of the universe centered on the soul. On October 22, 2023, members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups discussed the soul’s vantage in the timeless realm of Being relative to motions in the universe’s physical realm of Becoming, and our capacity for reason to differentiate and integrate information received from the physical senses. Timaeus claims that knowledge of proportion is essential to reason, which is one of the questions that the group considered. Participants brought forward many fascinating observations, including a comparison of today’s atomic model to the way Timaeus depicts the universe as spherical. The session ended with Timaeus’ unique description of the nature of time, which we will revisit at the beginning of the next meeting.

Why does Plato’s Timaeus, on the creation of the universe, begin with Socrates disavowing the imagined city of The Republic? As Socrates and the astronomer Timaeus review their discussion of the previous day, which was the basis of Plato's epic on justice and political organization, Socrates declares that he can’t picture the idealized city in motion. It’s a question discussed by members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups on October 8, 2023, when Plato’s Pod revisited the first part of the Timaeus, covering to 30(d). Why does Plato's dialogue then go on to discuss the legend of Atlantis, before Timaeus describes the fundamental division of the universe between Being – which is the realm of the observer – and Becoming, which is the part of the universe that consists of physical limits? Many fascinating points were raised by participants, touching on the scientific method, determinism and probability, the nature of time as linear or circular, and much more.

Plato’s Pod introduces its 4th season by demonstrating the relevance of ancient philosophy to modern technology with the question, “What Would Socrates Say About ChatGPT?” We take Socrates to the offices of OpenAI to meet the company’s CEO, Sam Altman, and imagine the questions that Socrates would have after the technology is explained to him. In the course of the imagined meeting, we bring a number of Plato’s dialogues previously featured in the podcast into consideration, including the Cratylus, The Republic, the Phaedo, the Phaedrus, the Meno, the Statesman, the Theaetetus, the Critias, and the Philebus. What do you think - are there some timeless and fundamentally questions about our relationship with technology?

What is our relationship with the laws of the society of which we are a part, and what should we do when the laws are misapplied by a misguided majority? For Socrates, in Plato’s Crito, the answer was clear: to endure the consequences, since he benefited from Athenian society and its constitution for seventy years. Wrongly convicted, and faced with his execution in two days, Socrates tells his friend Crito that it is not right for an individual to take the laws into his own hands, even if the laws have been corrupted by their custodians. On June 26, 2023, members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups convened to consider Crito’s reasoning for Socrates’ escape, and the conversation with the laws that Socrates stages at the end of the dialogue. One participant observed there is a family metaphor with Athens throughout the dialogue. Another participant asked, is it philosophy itself that Socrates was defending? And indeed, if Socrates had followed Crito’s advice and bribed his way out of prison, would we be discussing Socrates now, 2,400 years after Plato wrote about him?