Profound

In this episode of the Profound Podcast, I engage in an insightful conversation with Richard Steele, founder and president of Peeker Services. We explore his journey from rebuilding locomotives to embracing W. Edwards Deming's principles, leading to a radical change in his company's management practices, particularly around performance appraisals and bonus systems. Steele shares transformative moments, like presenting his new pay program to the Detroit Deming study group, including Dr. Deming himself, and the eventual transition of his company into an employee-owned structure. The dialogue delves into the practical applications of Deming's theories in the workplace, the power of collective problem-solving, and the importance of fostering a culture of learning and adaptation. Finally, we take a look at some of Dick's critiques of Deming's Journey to Profound Knowledge.Steele's narrative demonstrates a successful integration of system thinking and the profound impact of shifting from traditional merit pay to a more inclusive and equitable model, redefining quality and performance metrics within his organization.Richard's LinkedIn can be found here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-steele-6586477/

 In part two of their discussion, John Willis engages in a deep dive with Bill Bellows on the multifaceted world of safety, quality, and systems thinking. Inspired by the pioneering work of Sydney Decker, Dr. Woods, and Erik Hollnagel, they explore the nuanced perspectives on safety and quality that transcend conventional understanding.John and Bill navigate the intricate connections between thoroughness, efficiency, and effectiveness, drawing parallels to the foundational principles of Deming and Ackoff. They dissect the Efficiency-Thoroughness Trade-Off (ETTO) principle introduced by Hollnagel, pondering its implications in the context of operational safety and quality management.The conversation further delves into Russ Ackoff’s insights on systems thinking, the DIKW (Data, Information, Knowledge, Wisdom) model, and the profound impact of understanding complex systems on improving organizational outcomes. Bill shares anecdotes from his experiences, illustrating the practical application of these concepts in real-world settings, including his work at Rocketdyne and with the Deming community.Bill's LinkedIn can be found here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/Show Notes: 1) Ackoff videos on Deming Cooperative, https://demingcooperative.org/ackoffvideos/2) Ackoff on DIKUW - article, https://faculty.ung.edu/kmelton/Documents/DataWisdom.pdf3) Ackoff on DIKUW - video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzS5V5-0VsA&t=21s 3) Deming and Ackoff - excerpts of Volume 21 of the Deming Library, ("A Theory of a System for Educators and Managers”),https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MJ3lGJ4OFo 4) Deming and Ackoff - transcript of full recorded of Volume 21 of the Deming Library ,https://ackoffcenter.blogs.com/ackoff_center_weblog/2011/04/a-converstaion-between-russell-ackoff-and-edward-deming.html5) Ackoff - Memories, https://www.amazon.com/Memories-Hardcover-Collectors-Russell-Ackoff/dp/09565379956) Ackoff - Differences That Make a Difference, https://www.amazon.com/Differences-that-Make-Difference-Distinctions/dp/1908009012/ 

In this episode, I sit down once again with Bill Bellows to explore the interconnected nature of quality thinking. Our conversation ventures beyond traditional boundaries, drawing on Bill's unique insights into systemic thinking and its implications for organizational excellence.We delve into the philosophy of interconnectedness, illustrating how quality extends far beyond the superficial, embedding itself into every facet of production and service. Bill shares enlightening perspectives on the importance of viewing organizations as whole systems, where every element is interrelated and changes in one part can ripple through others.Bill's LinkedIn can be found here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/Show Notes: 1) Ackoff videos on Deming Cooperative, https://demingcooperative.org/ackoffvideos/2) Ackoff on DIKUW - article, https://faculty.ung.edu/kmelton/Documents/DataWisdom.pdf3) Ackoff on DIKUW - video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzS5V5-0VsA&t=21s 3) Deming and Ackoff - excerpts of Volume 21 of the Deming Library, ("A Theory of a System for Educators and Managers”),https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MJ3lGJ4OFo 4) Deming and Ackoff - transcript of full recorded of Volume 21 of the Deming Library ,https://ackoffcenter.blogs.com/ackoff_center_weblog/2011/04/a-converstaion-between-russell-ackoff-and-edward-deming.html5) Ackoff - Memories, https://www.amazon.com/Memories-Hardcover-Collectors-Russell-Ackoff/dp/09565379956) Ackoff - Differences That Make a Difference, https://www.amazon.com/Differences-that-Make-Difference-Distinctions/dp/1908009012/ 

I have a great discussion between Derek Lewis and John Willis, focusing on the historical and philosophical underpinnings of quality control and those who were paramount to the movement including Walter Shewhart, W. Edwards Deming, and Joseph M. Juran. The dialogue includes anecdotes, critiques, and appreciations of Shewhart and Deming's work, including a dramatic rendition of a critique by Juran. Additionally, we touch on the dynamics of recognition and credit within the field, highlighting the broader system thinking introduced by Deming to Japanese industries and contrasting perspectives on their contributions to quality control.

I have an enlightening conversation with Adam Hawkins in this episode. We dive deep into W. Edwards Deming's seminal perspectives on quality. Our dialogue explores how this expansive framing of quality requires connecting producers and consumers in a broader system. We relate these concepts to service level objectives (SLOs) and their role in quantifying acceptable loss balanced against keeping systems valuable. This leads us to the profound realization that quality is contextual, varying across different systems and business needs.Among other topics, we touch on the intricacies of variation, Deming's red bead experiment, the challenges of measurement and pragmatism, bringing quality thinking into software, and the difficulty of conveying Deming's multifaceted ideas to novices. Our exchange centers on constructing shared mental models to apply Deming's deep knowledge in today's digital landscape.Adam’s LinkedIn can be found here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/hi-adam-hawkins/Software Delivery in Small Batches Podcast: https://smallbatches.fm/people/adam-hawkinsPrecision, Accuracy, and Two Quality Questions: Unpacking a conversation between John Willis and Bill Bellows on Taguchi's approach to qualityhttps://softwarekaizen.substack.com/p/c83a7c05-d5b0-4cb3-93db-0e359108e3bb

In this second part of a two-part series, I speak with Bill Bellows about W. Edwards Deming's influence on Japanese manufacturing, specifically Toyota. We discuss Deming's relationship with Genichi Taguchi and how their quality philosophies intersect and complement each other. We explore Deming and Taguchi's differing notions of quality - meeting specifications versus minimizing loss to society. Bill's LinkedIn can be found here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/

In this first part of a two-part series, I chat with Bill Bellows in this episode. Bill gave us a little history of his introduction to Genichi Taguchi's methods and quality concepts while working as an engineer in the jet engine industry. We explore key ideas around variability reduction, precision vs accuracy, process capability, and Taguchi's loss function. Our conversation looks at the difference between traditional quality approaches focused on specifications and Taguchi's view of quality based on quantifying loss and variation. We riff on analogies using a dartboard and Deming's red bead experiment to clarify Taguchi's perspectives on "loss" and variation even within specification limits. Bill's LinkedIn can be found here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-bellows-218435/

I geek out with Tracy Bannon in this episode. Tracy gave us a little history of MITRE and her work at MITRE. DevOps, DevSecOps, and SRE, were also discussed from words to movements. We explore QA and risk controls as well as modern governance. Our conversation ended with a great discussion about generative AI, specifically ChatGPT.  Tracy can be found on Linkedin here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/tracylbannon/

This episode features Mike Harris, a Tester at Geckoboard who self-identifies as a Tester. We discuss how vital Dr. Deming's ideas are to testing, especially around the System of Profound Knowledge, with Mike, who has worked in testing for 20 years. It is another example of Dr. Deming's ideas' relevance in the modern era. Here's a summary:Introducing Mike Harris.0:02Deming’s journey of profound knowledge and the importance of systems thinking.5:22How do we verify what we think we know?11:20Driving out fear in your team.17:36The tyranny of the prevailing style of management and how to break it.23:45What is agile? How did it start?29:31Words matter to Deming.37:42Do you find that most people in the testing community don’t have a clear operational definition?43:30Links:https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-harris-citp-mbcs-5a75733/https://testandanalysis.home.blog/

In this episode, Donna and I discuss what's wrong with the words Root Cause and Root Cause Analysis. Our original thoughts and the differences between the old and new meanings are discussed. Undoubtedly, Dr. Deming's words matter, and we try to figure out what he would have said. 

I'm John Willis (Botchagalupe). For almost ten years, I have been researching and writing a book about Dr. Deming. About two years ago, I got serious about the work, and then the pandemic struck. I should write this book if I ever intend to do so. Two years ago, I started working with a wonderful consultant, Derek Lewis. He has a phenomenal voice that you get to hear. I have worked with him for two years. After about a year of writing, I naively thought I was done. A year later, with five drafts, I could continue for another five years. However, I have finally begun working with a publisher. There will be some excellent news on that front. Hopefully, the audio, final, and Kindle versions will be available this summer. The paperback might not be available until the end of the year due to printing and supply chain issues.There are two things to note about this edition. One, it is an early version, so there will be changes when we finally produce and publish the production audio version. Two, I used a dramatic version for this edition. To add excitement, I added some voiceovers and minor sound effects. I hope you enjoy listening to this audiobook’s first three chapters. If you would like an early copy to finish the book, please contact botchagalupe@gmail.com. However, it won't be a version for distribution. The final version may or may not change. I hope you enjoy the first three chapters; the actual final book will have 20 chapters, as it stands at 350 pages. 

I interview a longtime Dr. Deming fan and early DevOps pioneer in this episode. Donna has a similar background to mine, where we both worked before the age of clouds and modern infrastructure. You are going to enjoy this podcast. Here are some links for follow-up knowledge. Donna Knapp LinkedinReCommoning: Transitioning Organisations with Jabe BloomThe Visible Ops HandbookTRADE-OFFS UNDER PRESSURE: HEURISTICS AND OBSERVATIONS OF TEAMS RESOLVING INTERNET SERVICE OUTAGESWhat Would Deming Do

Dennis is the founder of Sergent Results Group. Sergent Results Group was founded in 2000 and offers professional coaching, consulting, leadership learning, quality and productivity training and expert facilitation. The company created Continual Quality Improvement (CQI) Academy™ for leaders and managers seeking to understand the scientific improvement methods of W. Edwards Deming and others. Dennis describes his experiences with Dr. Deming's teaching. I am a huge fan of another Deming student, Ron Moen, Dennis has worked with Ron on a couple of occasions. If you are a Dr. Deming fan, this is another great podcast where you get here more untold stories. I hope you enjoy. https://www.linkedin.com/in/sergentresultsgroup/

In this episode Damon Edwards interviews me about my upcoming Deming book. Damon and I have been DevOps partners in crime since the beginning of DevOps. We were both down in Boca Raton recording for the Techstrong Predict conference. Techstrong let us use their facility to record the podcast. Damon does a great job of pulling knowledge about my book. 

Glenn Wilson, author of "DevSecOps: A leader's guide to producing secure software without compromising flow, feedback, and continuous improvement" discusses our upcoming trip to Japan. We are both becoming huge fans of Katie Anderson (see my last podcast), and we are attending her Japan trip. I asked him why he signed up for the trip. In addition, we discuss Katie's book and how it's a perfect complement to Mike Rother's Toyota Kata and Steven Spear's High Velocity Edge. You might find some bonus material if you're an Umberto Eco fan. Links:Glenn WilsonGlenn's DevSecOps BookKatie AndersonKatie's Japan Trip

Katie Anderson is a leadership coach, consultant, and author who inspires individuals and organizations. In 2015, she moved to Japan from public health research. She shares lessons she learned in Japan about deepening your leadership skills with The Profound podcast.  As Katie had already applied Toyota production principles in the healthcare system, her life in Japan inspired her to learn lean at the source. Transitioning from public health to consulting was her big pivot away from academia and research.Katie's WebsiteLearning to Lead, Leading to Learn

Dave and I have a long history together. Besides being one of the DevOps OG's (did I say that right?) Dave has also been a fan of Dr. Deming for many years and came on the podcast to let me know about his consulting work and Deming's principles. Dave specializes in DevOps and private equity. When I hang out with Dave, I always have a great time. You can find him at:https://www.linkedin.com/in/dmangot/

Rob and I go old school in this episode. We had first met back in my early days before DevOps when I used to run a Tivoli consulting business. Rob describes how he used Dr. Deming's principles in his consulting work. Rob works alongside Dr. Cherry Vu and describes himself as a Teal Unicorn. LinkedIn and Twitter are the best places to find Rob and Cherry's ideas and work.https://www.linkedin.com/in/robenglandattwohillshttps://twitter.com/rob_england

Dominico Lepore developed the Decalogue™ management methodology together with Oded Cohen, a leading, world-renowned expert in The Theory of Constraints. One of the first books I read about Dr. Deming is his "Deming and Goldratt: The Theory of Constraints and the System of Profound Knowledge." In this episode, we cover everything from Dr. Deming's empathy to how the Talmud explains of Theory of Constraints. If you stick around long enough we discuss Umberto Eco. Intelligent Managementhttps://www.intelligentmanagement.ws/Ess3ntial: a tool with a missionhttps://ess3ntial.com/

This is part 2 of a two-part episode with John Hunter. John Hunter's background includes two areas of focus: management improvement and information technology program management. His experience is in improving the performance of organizations. For the last 15 years, his focus has been on management improvement with a concentration on using technology to aid this process.LinkedinCurious CatJohnhunter.comHere are some links John sent me.Sales Commissions  https://deming.org/eliminate-sales-commissions-reject-theory-x-management-and-embrace-systems-thinking/ (including why Fog Creek Software got rid of sales commissions)Why ThoughtWorks Eliminated Sales Commissionshttps://deming.org/why-thoughtworks-eliminated-sales-commisions/https://deming.org/eliminating-sales-commissions-at-air-force-one/The System of Profound Knowledge Applied to Sales and Marketing (presentations at Deming Institute)   https://deming.org/the-system-of-profound-knowledge-applied-to-sales-and-marketing/Related Material:https://management.curiouscatblog.net/2010/01/28/the-trouble-with-incentives-they-work/The Existing Management Conditions Limit How Effective New Strategies Will Be https://deming.org/the-existing-management-conditions-limit-how-effective-new-strategies-will-be/(with related links including )https://management.curiouscatblog.net/2010/12/08/building-adoption-of-management-improvement-ideas-in-your-organization/ )