Queerness and Storytelling in India

In this interview which was recorded in January 2024, the author of Coming Out as Dalit: A Memoir discusses the concept of "coming out," its genealogies and expectations. We revisit the controversy around Made in Heaven Season 2, and Dutt's vicious trolling on social media. Dutt reminds the listeners that being oppressed does not make one inherently moral or right but regardless, it makes them worthy of dignity and equality.

In this interview, Dr Chatterjee shares why he decided to translate Krishnogopal Mallick's work. The book, Entering the Maze: Queer Fiction of Krishnagopal Mallick opens us to questions about age, desire, and masculinity. Chatterjee also reflects on the need to give more visibility to Bengali literature that addresses queer issues. Additionally, he shares his experiences of being a professor at Kalyani University and collaborating with Sappho for Equality.Note: This interview was specifically requested by the publisher, Niyogi Books.এই সাক্ষাত্কারে, নীলাদ্রি আর চ্যাটার্জি শেয়ার করেছেন কেন তিনি কৃষ্ণগোপাল মল্লিকের কাজ অনুবাদ করার সিদ্ধান্ত নিয়েছিলেন। বইটি, এন্টারিং দ্য মেজ: কৃষ্ণগোপাল মল্লিকের কুইর ফিকশন আমাদের বয়স, আকাঙ্ক্ষা এবং পুরুষত্ব সম্পর্কে প্রশ্ন উন্মুক্ত করে। চ্যাটার্জি বাংলা সাহিত্যকে আরও দৃশ্যমানতা দেওয়ার প্রয়োজনীয়তার প্রতিও প্রতিফলিত করেছেন যা বিচিত্র বিষয়গুলিকে সম্বোধন করে। উপরন্তু, তিনি কল্যাণী বিশ্ববিদ্যালয়ের অধ্যাপক হওয়ার এবং সাফো ফর ইকুয়ালিটির সাথে সহযোগিতা করার অভিজ্ঞতা শেয়ার করেন।দ্রষ্টব্য: এই সাক্ষাৎকারটি বিশেষভাবে প্রকাশক নিয়োগী বুকস দ্বারা অনুরোধ করা হয়েছিল।

I spoke to Minakshi Sanyal aka Malobikadi about her co-edited anthology, Monologue: Lesbian Narrative of Bangladesh and West Bengal, and her journey in relation to Sappho for Equality. We reflect on the distinctions between "bari" and flat and what it means to be at home. She shares her experiences of collaborating with Anindya Hazra on the Dialogues: Calcutta International LGBTQIA+ Film and Video Festival. Working across movements and organizations is key to her feminist vision. Malobika di also expresses her disappointment and anger at being excluded from intra-community events and initiatives that were led and dominated by cis-gay men.

In this dialogue, Chintan gives us an impressive list of "queer" books that should be read and cherished. He insists that the best work is happening in the field of children's literature. We discuss the hierarchies of caste, region, and language in the publishing scene, and how that impacts what gets published and by whom.

Moses discusses storytelling and queerness in relation to his film on the Telangana Swabhimana pride parade, Walking the Walk  (2015). He draws connections between the right to self-determination of gender, the fight for Telangana, and the different tribal narratives and customs that inform trans and Dalit politics in the region.

A new episode

In this episode, Aamir reflects on his experiences of belonging and unbelonging in both India and Taiwan. He highlights Taiwan's apolitical approach to higher education and queer rights despite being the first Asian country to legalize same-sex marriage. Aamir also discusses the nuances of being racialized and desired (or not) in both countries. He suggests that we should care and listen, without trying to score points on social media. In that context, Aamir practices self-care through crochet and knitting. Finally, we examine the detrimental impact of SIR on vulnerable communities in Bihar, shedding light on how people are being disenfranchised in India.

In this episode, Nishant Upadhyay discusses their book, Indians on Indian Lands: Intersections of Race, Caste, and Indigeneity. They explain the use of the term "Indian" in the title and the complicity of Indian migrants in settler colonialism in Canada/Turtle Island. Upadhyay also offers a detailed account of their interdisciplinary methodology and the challenges of doing fieldwork.

In this interview, recorded in August 2024, Niharika Banerjea, Professor at OP Jindal Law School, discusses how she navigates collaborations with activists and academics. We discuss how bureaucracy influences teaching in both public and private educational institutions. Banerjea also explains how she approached the question of livability in her co-authored book, Liveable Lives: Living and Surviving LGBTQ Equalities in India and the UK.

Snehashish Das offers a critique of Western universalism and asks "us" to consider why we want to fit Indian icons like Bhimrao Ambedkar and Savitribai Phule into Western categories. They discuss the role of poetry by Kabir as well as interlocutors in their "field" to rethink ideas of gender, queerness, desire and subversion. They makes a case for hope by referring to how Begumpura exists in the present, and shares their thoughts on appropriation.

Arpita Das, the founder of Yoda Press shares what it means to start and sustain an independent publishing house in India. She discusses her collaborations with fellow publishers in Pakistan and Bangladesh. We talk about her investment in queer and trans storytelling in particular. Das also reiterates the reasons why she decided to unpublish Saiba Verma's book. She makes a case for ethical research and writing, sharing her insights into the proliferation of writing programs and workshops in Indian universities.

In this episode, activist, educator, and organizer Summi Dass shared how she started the Moitrisanjog Society, Cooch Behar, and collaborated with donors and academics. We also discussed the centricity of Kolkata in queer and trans organizing and how that impacts the community in rural Bengal.  Rajorshi Das (RD): Today, we have Sumi Das with us. She established the Moitrisanjog Society in 2009. It is the only organization in North Bengal, which works for the rights of koti, hijra, and transgender communities, particularly fighting for their livelihood and right to work. Her organization also made a documentary named Alpo Jana Golpo Guli (The Lesser Known Stories) (2018), portraying her journey as an intersectional marginalized Bahujan transgender woman. She also runs a gurukul now and is associated with many struggles including students’ and anti-caste movements. Thank you, Sumi. We were supposed to have this interview for quite some time, and finally, it’s taking place. Sumi Das (SD): Greetings everyone. I’m Sumi Das. I am speaking from Cooch Behar, North Bengal, from the state of West Bengal. RD: Oh yes, I am in Iowa City now. Like most of my podcast interviews, this is being done virtually via Zoom. I am keen to know, and you must have shared this in other interviews, but how did Moitrisanjog begin, and why in Cooch Behar? Were you born in Cooch Behar? Were you always eager to work for the koti-transgender-hijra community in Cooch Behar? SD: I was born in Bonkoma subdivision of Dinhata, Cooch Behar. It’s a more of rural area. I was brought up in a middle-class family. When I was growing up, nobody used to talk about the issues regarding the trans-koti community, and even if it was there, it was limited to the town of Siliguri. We used to hear terms like homo, somokami and homosexual a lot at that time. And my journey started…yes, I wasn’t thrown out of the house, but a situation was created that would have led to that. Hence, when I was around 14-15 years old, I left my house. My mother expired at a young age when I was in Class I, and my father got remarried. Living itself had become very challenging. After leaving my house, my initial destination was New Jalpaiguri station, Siliguri, and there I got involved in sex work, to meet my economic needs. Afterward, a person from the community, associated with the hijra occupation took me to her home. That’s when my journey started. At that time, there was this organization called Manas Bangla, which since 2006 had been working on HIV-AIDS intervention in Bengal, particularly with hijras, homosexuals, and the community in general. Back then, the word was MSM, men who have sex with men. It was the technical language of TI- Targeted Intervention. Our journey started with sexual health, but later I felt that we were losing our rights. Within the global crisis of HIV-AIDS crisis, we were identified as a high-risk group. Back in 2007-8, I felt that nobody was discussing our rights and demands. Koti, somokami, hijra: no matter which name you use, we all are stigmatized. When the condoms were being distributed with our hands, we were being doubly stigmatized. Hence, I left the job in 2009 and returned to Cooch Behar. I didn’t have any idea regarding NGO as I didn’t have any understanding of it, so I tried to make a collective of people from the community. People used to come, dance, enjoy, chitchat and gossip at the place where I lived. We used to go for outings and picnic together. I took the initiative to create a sense of bonding. Finally in 2011, 2 years after starting it, we registered Moitrisanjog. We started to do it systematically. This was the start of Moitrisanjog’s journey and the beginning of the consciousness that we should stay united. RD: You spoke about the HIV organizing work that Manas Bangla was doing in West Bengal. Whenever we talk about any kind of representation, be it news, Bengali cinema, or LGBT activism, it is very Kolkata-centric. Being based in Cooch Behar, did you ever feel that your work doesn’t get enough visibility or that you don’t get the support that the Kolkata-based organizations might be getting? How does one break this Kolkata centrism, and let people know that there are people from the community outside Kolkata, who need support? SD: See, I’ve faced this multiple times since 2009. There is always discrimination at every step. For any event or program, you need some money to organize, and all the donors and funding organizations primarily rely on metro cities like Kolkata, Delhi, and Hyderabad. One reason could be that back in 2011-12, few knew about the internet outside the metros. We were not technologically equipped back then due to a lack of resources, and so there was a huge communication gap, and the funders primarily used to communicate in English and over email, which also caused issues for us. To date, we face these issues, and the big projects or donor-based work are still specific to metro cities. There is a need to break this cycle which we were trying to do. For instance, during COVID, we were posting and sharing videos, and images through social media, trying to reach out to raise donations for our community. So I believe that we need to get more active on the internet, social media, email, and other platforms. It is also important that donors are made aware that it is not only community people from the metro cities who face challenges, but that a lot of people in rural Bengal also face challenges in their livelihood, which was particularly hampered during the lockdown. RD: Since you talked about Corona, I want to point out that Sintu (Bagui) recently shared an older article about how people are struggling to get employment in the aftermath of the pandemic. You also raised funds during the 2nd phase of lockdown. It has been almost a year or two now. How should one tackle this unemployment crisis? Are you getting any form of support now, be it from the government or in the form of donor-based projects? SD: Well, after the 2nd COVID wave, we started some projects like a beautician course, paper plate making, etc. with the support of donors. But I believe that after a point, the need remained but the urgency has died. We do not have any proper support from anybody, regarding livelihood. People who used to work in cosmetic stores and earn Rs 5000, now receive Rs 3000 or 4000 after COVID. Also, the community organizations are primarily working in Kolkata or Delhi for employment issues, and we don’t see any outreach outside that circle. We’re trying to contact some organizations, as everyone needs some livelihood measures, be it in handicrafts or some other form, but we are not getting any kind of support to be honest. During COVID, a lot of small initiatives were started, but sadly they were limited to training of 7-15 days and a photo session. This employment crisis cannot be half-heartedly solved in 7 days. There needs to be long-term support, and no one is ready to provide that. RD: So, training is taking place, and some community people are already trained and skilled, but job opportunities are not available, right? SD: No. Indeed, community people have the skills. But following a training of 7 days or 15 days, their learning and practices need to grow. For example, if someone has done a beautician course, they need to have an expensive phone, if someone learns bridal work, they need to click photos and post and share it. So, it is a long-term thing, and no donor is willing to invest in that. They are just done after the short-term training. But there are steps after that. Indeed, there was an initiative regarding livelihood work after the 2nd wave all over the country, but they were very shallow, and limited to photo sessions. No one was deeply trained in that project, as per my knowledge. RD: Now, everyone is talking about horizontal reservation. Grace Banu and other activists have been fighting for it for months or rather years. I don’t know how much the West Bengal government is supporting it. Do you think that if this reservation is implemented, it will help the transgender community, especially regarding education and employment? SD: I believe that education and employment are the primary issues right now. Both are very important. Some private companies are coming forward to recruit us, but again this is limited to metro cities. There are no corporate companies outside of Delhi, Bombay, and Kolkata and again they’re coming to only a select number of people, circling these few cities. I believe that this reservation will have a good impact, but a lot depends upon the state government. The Supreme Court gave a lot of rights after the 2014 “third gender” judgment and said that there will be employment based on ability, but standing in 2023, we haven’t seen it implemented. So, there is anxiety as to who will then be in power at the state level. RD: So, this depends largely upon the state government. SD: Totally. RD: We met several times, and you also gifted me a saree when you came to the USA. At that time, you were working with Ani (Dutta), and maybe still working with her, ie, Ani Dutta, who is a professor at the University of Iowa. So, how did you and Moitrisanjog start collaborating with academia? And there is –   SD: I’ve been working with Ani Dutta since 2011-12. There are only a handful of scholars who have worked in rural Bengal. Among the professors who were previously associated with research work in the community, only a few have been associated with rural Bengal. I don’t have much experience regarding research, but I feel that the kind of papers they’re publishing and the book that Ani is going to publish, I believe should be shared with the community. Those who’ve made the research possible should get access to it. I’ve seen that after getting jobs, some researchers do not keep any form of contact with the community except maybe with a few people in the metro cities. I would like to name some people, li

Performance Studies scholar, Dr Cherian discusses the limits of subversion in Indian classical dance. She revisits her article on Narthaki Nataraj and Kalakrishna, and explains the political processes that led to the formation of the category of "classical." She reflects on the composition of the audiences for classical dance performances across different cities while addressing the questions of caste capital and appropriation. She also touches upon the challenges of being a Dean in a public university, and the ways in which she is able to center care in her everyday work as an administrator.

In this episode, Ari explains why she wants to make a documentary on the trans and queer community in the Nadia district which is located at the India-Bangladesh border. The link to the fundraiser can be found here. We also discussed the hierarchies that govern the relationship between academics-researchers and grassroots activists. Please find the English translation and transcription of the interview below.RD: Today, we are joined by Ari Roy Chowdhuri (ARC) from Kalyani, Nadia, West Bengal, India. Ari is the secretary of Nadia Ranaghat Sampriti Society. This organization works for grassroots hijra, Kothi and trans people. She was also the project director of the NETREACH project undertaken by Sampriti. She has also worked with several organizations in the past such as West Bengal State AIDS Control Society and Pechhan Trust. Thank you, Ari for joining.I know that you have started a fundraiser for a documentary. Can you tell us if this documentary is specific to the work done by Sampriti or will address broader community issues in the region?ARC: Thank you. Firstly, this is not so much about the organization itself, but rather about the language of the community. This documentary will be based in the Nadia district. Nadia is along the border of two countries, India and Bangladesh, and it consists of a number of historical and important heritage sites. We can see the birthplace of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, a holy site for Sanatan Dharma. Similarly, we can see the important sites of Matua Mahasabha in the Nadia district and nearby regions. Also, there is a significant number of people in Nadia from the (LGBTQ+) community.During the year 2010, the number of people belonging to the community started to get increase and become more visible, and there was a huge lack of awareness within the community. During that period, if someone faced any problem from the police, administration or authorities, they found themselves helpless and weren’t able to do anything. People who didn’t want to indulge in or stay in certain professions didn’t have any opportunities for alternate livelihood. Then, some of us, my friends and seniors created an organization. In 2013-14, we got our registration, as it takes some time to get registered. After that, I got busy with my studies for a while. Then in 2016-2017, I created the first transgender toilet in our college. Afterwards, I realized that to work for the community, I need to work through my organization. Gradually our organization was growing, and the base of the community was getting stronger. Back then, the members of the organization asked me to take charge of it. On the other hand, I gradually started to get acquainted with people with political power and background. Today, standing in this position, starting from the COVID-19 pandemic to bringing a number of different small projects for Sampriti to helping people from the community to stand on their own feet, I gave my whole life to the queer community. I remember that during the pandemic, our organization worked in all the districts in West Bengal, starting from Uttar Dinajpur in North Bengal, Murshidabad on this side, Hooghly, North 24 Parganas, and the whole of Nadia district. People from the community in our district have received food and rations at every moment, that’s our achievement, through the help of crowdfunding. But sadly, to this day, no one has ever come to see and hear the voices of our community. There is a history behind my decision to make the documentary. What’s the history? We can see day by day, there’s an effect coming upon the cholla occupation. It can also be seen in badhai occupation, where kothis and hijras dance with the baby. But how will Kothis and Hijras will get their bread?! If you can’t provide food for someone, you shouldn’t take away the means of earning their bread. For that, we should look into the history of the origin of cholla and badhai occupation in the Nadia district. Today, the Matua community, who are Dalits, who have their Gurudevata as Harichand, Gourchand Thakur are getting discriminated against. On the other hand, Vaishanavas of the Sanatan dharma is following Mahaprabhu Chaitanyadev through ISKON. They are ending up their lives as members of the queer community. Why are they doing that? What problems are the community facing? Why’re they getting initiated under pressure from their family? To open up, and let people know about these issues, we’ve arranged and initiated the process to film this documentary. The rest is in your hand, and we’re expecting help and cooperation from you and everyone. With your help only, we’ll be able to complete the film. Through this, you’ll be able to get to know a lot of unknown facts and issues. You might be able to see how people from the community who have migrated from Bangladesh to Nadia at a young age, are now living in poverty or maybe associated with different occupations. Some of them are old now, and you’ll also get to hear their voices and know about us. RD: I feel that the documentary is going to be a story of not just one country, but that of India and Bangladesh. So, during the last few years, we have seen the NRC, and also protests against the Citizenship Act. How do you think the government, both the centre and the state will respond to this history of the community that you want to document?ARC: Firstly, our government, be it state or central, if they cared about our community, the situation wouldn’t have been this bad. Those who’ve come in 1971, still have to hear that they’re Bangladeshis. And who’s saying that? People who’ve been born here but maybe their parents have also come from Bangladesh. Most of the population of Nadia district is made up of refugees. But recently, there has been a surge among us, of dividing people on the lines of Hindu-Muslim, Dalit, and upper caste–lower caste to just an extent that if we don’t get united together, the situation will worsen for us in the future. This film or cinema will highlight our history, our struggle, of how the community was united together previously; why they aren’t they anymore, and what should be done to improve the condition.RD: I heard that during the pandemic, at first, the government was providing some relief. Can you say something about that? Again, about the Transgender Act of 2019, a lot of transgender persons faced difficulties in making their ID cards. Did the community get any form of support regarding this? Has the government of West Bengal come forward to help the community in any way?ARC: Nope. Firstly, I have no idea how the West Bengal government has created a Transgender State Board. Now they’ve created a cell in every district, but we’ve no clue about it either. Secondly, during the three waves of the pandemic, they’ve provided relief only twice. But they had not given any thought regarding where we will stay. Now, while they’ve started providing TG Cards, the government is still asking for an affidavit from the court, which costs around Rs 300; sadly, our community doesn’t have the financial means to provide that money as even Rs 100 is a big amount for us. Since the government hasn’t made the affidavit free and also the other amenities, the role of government is almost negligible. Our hopes and aspirations are not being addressed.RD: It is usually said that there are no hierarchies within hijra communities regarding religion as individuals irrespective of religious background, stay together. So, when we talk about transgender people and people with marginalized gender and sexual identities, how is this division getting created, and how does this effect work?ARC: It is true that the big division within the community on religious lines is starting to affect our work. You may know that the ARM of Alipurduar Railway Division has banned chibris to get on the train (for cholla). No one from the community or any NGO is raising their voice against this. Discrimination is always present within us, Hindus are discriminating against Muslims, Muslims are discriminating against Hindus, and on the lines of caste, class, Dalit and Namasudra identities. It is clearly visible in different places. But yes, this isn’t the result of something which occurred in one day, rather has been in process since ancient times in history. To get rid of this, it will take time. People need to make aware and learn more, that we’re already a marginalized community, and irrespective of the identity of being chibri, gay, lesbian, we fall under the same umbrella. It’ll take a huge time to make our community aware of this, as there is no awareness from the government as well. If the government was aware, this would have been done much earlier.RD: Can you tell us the difference between cholla and badhai?ARC: Badhai is mainly dancing with the newborn in their laps, and cholla is begging for Rs 1-2 on trains and somehow managing your life with it.RD: So slowly the government is removing and banning you all from public spaces, right?ARC: The Railways department has done this one. Particularly within Alipurduar district, not in other places yet.RD: Is the transgender toilet you made in your college still there?ARC: Yes it is still present till now. The college used to really have issues and problems with me. To remove this issue, I started protesting this and I created the first transgender toilet in my college.RD: Is there any work or project going on with/in West Bengal or India, or with any other organizations?ARC: Yes, we’re working with Seva International on the livelihood prospects of community individuals in beautician and tailoring. Overall, 24 people from the community are learning. If we get further assistance, we wish to open a parlour run by the community.RD: Like your work with Seva, you’ve also worked with several people from the academia, but people who do activism from and within the academia, and I consider myself as an activist as well, our primary meaning of income comes from acade

Queer rights activist Rohin Bhatt has been at the forefront of the struggle for marriage equality in the Supreme Court of India. We discuss the legality of the matter and the arguments from the opposing bodies. Bhatt insists that the demand for horizontal reservation for trans people should get more attention. He also explains his role as a bioethicist and elaborates on the small wins for gender inclusivity on the Supreme Court premises.

In my first-ever interview with a publisher, Sarma, the founder of Red River gives me an insider's account of what small-scale and independent publishing looks like in India. He discusses the joys and the risks involved in creating a poetry book. Sarma also reflects on the making of Whistling in the Dark: Twenty-One Queer Interviews which he co-edited with R Raj Rao.Editor: Shubang Gautam

"Candles are my claim, hula hoop, my release"Known for her handmade aromatic candles, Jyoti Singh shares what it means to tell a story with wax and dry flowers. This story is also informed by her belief in anti-caste politics and social and political justice. She also tells me how trauma changed her body's relationship with dance. This prompted her to seek refuge in the hula hoop.Editor: Shubang Gautam

Dey shares their standpoint on queer politics and why "queer" as an adjective matters more to them. We speak about poetry, queer pedagogy, intimacy, and identity politics. Dey also reflects on belongingness and exile, about living in Delhi and being brought up in Siliguri. She asks, "Can Bengalis imagine having a Nepali CM?"Editor: Shubang Gautam

In his interview which was conducted in October 2022, Pradhan shares how he negotiates different places of belonging and what that means for his queerness in a globalized world. We discuss his forthcoming anthology and the process of writing and performing for digital platforms. In response to a question, Pradhan also shares some critiques of Kaustav Chakraborty's book which tries to "queer" tribal folktales.*Audio editor: Shubang Gautam*

Santa Khurai who is a Manipuri indigenous Nupi Maanbi shares her insights on the challenges of doing activism in the region. She takes a strong stand against racism and colonialism which impacts how mainland India treats people from the Northeast. A poet and an artist, she wants to be recognized as a writer, rather than a trans writer.