Decoder with Nilay Patel

This is Hank Green, cofounder of Complexly. You might remember last year when I turned the tables on Nilay and interviewed him on his own show. That was a ton of fun, and it was so much fun that they’ve brought me back again. This time, I’m stepping in for Nilay to host the next few Decoder episodes while he’s out on parental leave.  Today, I’m talking with a very special guest: Sal Khan, the founder and CEO of Khan Academy. Sal was actually Nilay’s second-ever guest on Decoder, back in 2020. And well, a whole lot has changed since then. So I wanted to have Sal back on to ask what it’s like running Khan Academy today, in the aftermath of the pandemic. But also how online learning is about to change, in really dramatic ways, due to artificial intelligence. Links:  Sal Khan on A.I.'s promise and its risks | NBC News (YouTube) The best-case scenario for AI in schools | BBC News Meet Khanmigo: the student tutor AI being tested in schools | 60 Minutes| 60 Minutes Remote learning is here to stay — can we make it better? | Decoder Hank Green makes Nilay Patel explain why websites have a future | Decoder In classrooms, teachers put AI tutoring bots to the test | NYT Elite colleges have found a new virtue for applicants to fake | NYT Everyone Is cheating their way through college | New York Magazine Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Despite being one of the most valuable companies in the world, OpenAI is still technically a nonprofit. That’s what set the stage for the dramatic board coup in 2023 that briefly ousted Sam Altman as CEO. And now, OpenAI is trying to shake this nonprofit structure so it can raise even more money and, eventually, go public. There’s a lot at stake here, and not just for OpenAI. Links:  OpenAI abandons plans to become a for-profit company | Verge Why California’s AG must continue investigation into OpenAI | CalMatters An open letter to OpenAI | EyesOnOpenAI OpenAI eyes $50B valuation in potential employee share sale | Reuters OpenAI thinks its critics are funded by billionaires | San Francisco Standard Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, and welcome to Decoder! This is Senior Producer Nick Statt. We’re on a small break for the end of summer, and, sadly, Nilay will still be out a little while longer when we come back. But we have an excellent slate of guest host episodes starting up next month, so stay tuned for those.  In the meantime, we wanted to bring back one of our favorite Decoder interviews from earlier this year. It’s with Bookshop CEO Andy Hunter, who back in January launched a pretty bold ebook initiative to take on Amazon and Kindle. It’s been about seven months, but Bookshop has seen big results, including more than $1 million in ebook sales. So we thought it was a good time to revisit our conversation with Andy.   Links:  Bookshop.org reports 65% growth, e-books add $1 Million in sales | Publishers Weekly Bookshop CEO Andy Hunter’s crusade to save books from Amazon | Decoder Bookshop.org is launching an ebook store to take on Amazon | Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello! Decoder senior producer Kate Cox here. I’m afraid I’m still not Nilay, but I hope you’ve been enjoying our series of guest hosts this summer while he’s out on parental leave. We have a few more really great guest episodes coming up, before Nilay returns to the host chair later this fall, so stay tuned. The production team is taking our own break this week, so while we’re off we’re excited to share this episode of The Gray Area with you. Students all over the country — including my own kids, thank goodness — are back in school right around now, and so we thought it would be a perfect time to revisit host Sean Illing talking with journalist James Walsh about how AI tools like ChatGPT have kicked off a new cheating arms race that’s proving extremely disruptive to college education.  There are a lot of big Decoder ideas — and problems — wrapped up in all this. Okay, The Gray Area, with Sean Illing. Enjoy.  Links: If AI can do your classwork, why go to college? | The Gray Area Everyone Is cheating their way through college | New York Magazine How to get students to stop using AI | Verge I used the ‘cheat on everything’ AI tool and it didn’t help me cheat on anything | Verge Inside the frat-bro startup that wants you to ‘cheat on everything' | SF Standard A new headache for honest students: proving they didn’t use AI | NYT Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Alex Heath, your Thursday episode guest host and deputy editor at The Verge. One of the biggest topics in AI these days is agents — the idea that AI is going to move from chatbots to reliably completing tasks for us in the real world. But the problem with agents is that they really aren’t all that reliable right now. There’s a lot of work happening in the AI industry to try and fix that, and that brings me to my guest today: David Luan, the head of Amazon’s AGI research lab, a cofounder of Adept, and a former VP of engineering at OpenAI. David and I discussed the release of GPT-5, what Amazon wants with agents, and where he thinks the AI race is headed next. Read the full transcript on The Verge. Links:  The Platonic Representation Hypothesis | Phillip Isola Amazon plays catch-up with new Nova models to generate voices, video | Verge Amazon’s new AI agent is designed to do your shopping | Verge Microsoft is racing to build an AI ‘agent factory’ | Verge OpenAI’s new ChatGPT Agent can control an entire computer | Verge 24 hours with Alexa Plus: we cooked, we chatted, and it kinda lied to me | Verge Why AI researchers are getting paid like NBA All-Stars | Decoder OpenAI’s Windsurf deal is off — and Windsurf’s CEO is going to Google | Verge This is Big Tech’s playbook for swallowing the AI industry | Command Line Amazon hires founders away from AI startup Adept | TechCrunch Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Obsidian is a note-taking and productivity app that occupies the same "second brain" space as competitors like Notion — but in a lot of ways, it's also startlingly different. Obsidian's files are Markdown-based, stored locally on your own devices, and completely free to use. Steph Ango, the CEO, is also different in a lot of ways: He's not an Obsidian founder, but instead came to the role from being basically a member of the fan development community. His take on software, productivity, and business is refreshingly old-fashioned in a lot of good ways, while he's also leading a very 21st century startup.  Read the full transcript on The Verge. Links:  I’m joining Obsidian as CEO | Obsidian Blog About Obsidian (Manifesto) | Obsidian Narvar acquires Lumi (2021) | Narvar  After 15 years whipping the llama’s ass, Winamp shuts down | TechCrunch Notion’s Ivan Zhao wants you to demand better from your tools | Decoder Book Review: “What I Talk About When I Talk About Running” | National Geographic Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt; our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Alex Heath, your Thursday episode guest host and deputy editor at The Verge. Today, I’m talking to a very special guest: Nick Turley, OpenAI’s head of ChatGPT.  While Sam Altman is definitely the public face of OpenAI, Nick has been leading ChatGPT’s development since the very beginning, and it’s now the fastest-growing software product of all time with more than 700 million weekly users. So, Nick and I talk about the backlash against OpenAI’s removal of its GPT-4o model, the future of ChatGPT itself, solving hallucinations, and why he thinks it eventually won’t look like a chatbot at all.  Read the full transcript on The Verge. Links:  ChatGPT won’t remove old models without warning after GPT-5 backlash | Verge ChatGPT is bringing back 4o as an option because people missed it | Verge GPT-5 is being released to all ChatGPT users | Verge The 6 biggest changes coming to ChatGPT | Verge ChatGPT has 20 million paying subscribers | Verge Elon Musk says he’s suing Apple for rigging App Store rankings | Verge OpenAI’s ChatGPT to hit 700 million weekly users | CNBC Chatbots can go into a delusional spiral. Here’s how it happens | NYT ChatGPT gave instructions for murder, self-mutilation, and devil worship | The Atlantic ‘I feel like I’m going crazy’: ChatGPT fuels delusional spirals | WSJ Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Casey Newton, founder and editor of Platformer and cohost of the Hard Fork podcast. This is the second episode of my productivity-focused Decoder series I’m doing while Nilay is out on parental leave. Today, I’m talking with Notion cofounder and CEO Ivan Zhao. I’ve followed Notion for quite some time now — I’m a big fan, and I use Notion as part of my workflow with Platformer. So I was very excited to get Ivan on the show to discuss his philosophy on productivity, how he’s grown his company over the last decade, and where he sees the space going in the future.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Introducing Notion AI for Work | Notion Notion Mail is a minimalist but powerful take on email | Verge Notion’s new Q&A feature lets you ask an AI about your notes | Verge Notion takes on AI notetakers with its own transcription feature | TechCrunch The impossible dream of good workplace software | Decoder When AI has better taste than you | Julie Zhuo / The Looking Glass Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was editor by Xander Adams.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Alex Heath, deputy editor at The Verge. My guest today is GitHub CEO Thomas Dohmke. In many ways, GitHub Copilot set off the current AI coding boom. But since Thomas was on the show a year ago, the rise of vibe coding has shifted the buzz to newer platforms like Cursor and Windsurf. As you’ll hear in our conversation, Thomas is thinking a lot about the competition, and GitHub’s role in the future of software development.  Links: Developers, Reinvented | Thomas Dohmke / GitHub Developer Odyssey | Thomas Dohmke / GitHub Why tech is racing to adopt AI coding, with Cursor’s Michael Truell | Decoder GitHub CEO Thomas Dohmke says AI needs competition to thrive | ⁠⁠Decoder⁠⁠ Up to 30 percent of some Microsoft code is now written by AI | Verge GitHub launches its AI app-making tool in preview | Verge Microsoft is getting ready for GPT-5 with a new Copilot smart mode | Verge Zuckerberg: AI will write most Meta code within 18 months | Engadget Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Casey Newton, founder and editor of the Platformer newsletter and cohost of the Hard Fork podcast. I’ll be guest hosting the next few episodes of Decoder while Nilay is out on parental leave. For the next three weeks, I’ll be talking to leaders in the productivity space about what they’re building, and how they can help us get things done.  My guest today: Michael Truell, the CEO of Anysphere, the maker of automated programming platform Cursor AI. I sat down with Michael to talk about his product and how it works, why coding with AI has seen such incredible adoption, and what the future of automated programming really looks like.  Read the full transcript on The Verge. Links:  Anysphere, hailed as fastest growing startup ever, raises $900 Million | Bloomberg AI coding assistant Cursor draws a million users without even trying | Bloomberg Anthropic rehires AI leaders from Anysphere | The Information Cursor apologizes for unclear pricing changes that upset users | TechCrunch OpenAI looked at buying Cursor creator before turning to rival Windsurf | CNBC Interview with Anysphere CEO Michael Truell about coding with AI | Stratechery Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Alex Heath, your Thursday episode guest host and deputy editor at The Verge. Today I'm joined by Hayden Field, The Verge’s new senior AI reporter to talk about the AI talent wars and why some researchers are suddenly getting traded like their NBA superstars. Both Hayden and I have been reporting on this for the past several weeks to get a sense of much these companies are paying for top talent, why Big Tech firms like Google are opting to hire instead of acquire, and what it means that some of the most sought-after AI experts in the world are no longer motivated by money alone.  Links:  OpenAI’s Windsurf deal is off — and Windsurf’s CEO is going to Google | Verge Mark Zuckerberg promises you can trust him with superintelligent AI | Verge Meta is trying to win the AI race with money — but not everyone can be bought | Verge Meta says it’s winning the talent war with OpenAI | Command Line Google gets its swag back | Command Line The AI talent wars are just getting started | Command Line Meta tried to buy Safe Superintelligence, hired its CEO instead | CNBC Apple loses top AI models executive to Meta’s hiring spree | Bloomberg Meta’s AI recruiting campaign finds a new target | Wired Anthropic hires back two AI leaders from Anysphere | The Information Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is CNBC journalist Jon Fortt. This is the last episode I’ll be guest-hosting for Nilay while he’s out on parental leave. My guest today is Richard Robinson, who is the cofounder and CEO of legal tech startup Robin AI.  Richard is a corporate lawyer-turned-startup founder working on AI tools for the legal profession. But law and AI have not mixed well. So I wanted to ask Richard about hallucinations, how lawyers can use AI today, and what it will really take to place our trust in an AI lawyer. Read the full transcript on The Verge. Links:  Legal tech startup Robin AI raises another $25 million | Fortune Why do lawyers keep using ChatGPT? | Verge Judge slams lawyers for ‘bogus AI-generated research’ | Verge Lawyers using AI must heed ethics rules, ABA says in first formal guidance | Reuters Lawyers fined for submitting bogus case law created by ChatGPT | AP The ChatGPT lawyer explains himself | NYT Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Alex Heath, your Thursday episode guest host. Today I'm talking with Gaurav Misra, the CEO of Captions. You may not have heard of Captions yet, but by now, you’ve probably seen a video that was generated using its AI models. The company’s Mirage Studio platform lets anyone generate AI versions of real people, and the results are alarmingly realistic.  Captions just put out a blog post titled, “We Build Synthetic Humans. Here’s What’s Keeping Us Up at Night.” It’s a good overview of the state of deepfakes and where they’re headed. So Gauraav and I sat down to discuss the trajectory of deepfake technology and what might be done to prevent it from being misused.  Links:  We build synthetic humans. Here’s what’s keeping us up at night | Captions Google’s Veo 3 AI video generator is a slop monger’s dream | Verge Gemini AI can now turn photos into videos | Verge Trump just unveiled his plan to put AI in everything | Verge Racist videos made with AI are going viral on TikTok | Verge Microsoft wants Congress to outlaw AI-generated deepfake fraud | Verge YouTube is supporting the ‘No Fakes Act’ targeting unauthorized AI replicas | Verge This Tom Cruise impersonator is using deepfake tech to impressive ends | Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Jon Fortt, CNBC journalist. I’m guest-hosting for a couple more episodes of Decoder this summer while Nilay is out on parental leave. Today, I’m talking with a very special guest: Gil Duran, an old friend, journalist, and author of The Nerd Reich, a newsletter and forthcoming book about the shifting politics of Silicon Valley and the rise of tech authoritarianism. Links:  Is Peter Thiel the Antichrist? NYT didn’t think to ask | The Nerd Reich How tech authoritarianism becomes reality | The Nerd Reich Curtis Yarvin’s Plot Against America | The New Yorker The rise of techno-authoritarianism | The Atlantic JD Vance thinks monarchists have some good ideas | The Verge Startups meeting with Trump officials to push for deregulated ‘Freedom Cities’ | Wired Peter Thiel-linked startup wants to build the “next great city” in Greenland | Inside Hook Bitcoin could replace dollar If US debt grows says Coinbase CEO | CryptoSlate Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Alex Heath, deputy editor at The Verge. Nilay’s out on parental leave for the next few months, so I’ll be stepping in to host our Thursday episodes while he’s out. My guest today is Perplexity CEO Aravind Srinivas, who is betting that the browser is where more useful AI will get built.  Perplexity just released Comet, an AI web browser for the Mac and Windows that’s still in an invite-only beta. I’ve been using it, and it’s very interesting. In this conversation, Aravind and I also discussed the future of Perplexity, the AI talent wars, and why he thinks people will eventually pay thousands of dollars for a single AI prompt. Read the full transcript here on The Verge. Links:  Perplexity just launched an AI web browser | Verge Perplexity wants to buy Chrome if Google has to sell it | Verge The Dia browser is a big bet on the. web and AI | Verge Perplexity’s CEO on fighting Google & the AI browser war | Command Line Perplexity launches a $200 monthly subscription plan | Verge Meta says it’s winning the talent war with OpenAI | Verge Meta is trying to win the AI race with money | Verge Meta held talks to buy Perplexity and others | Command Line Inside Mark Zuckerberg’s AI hiring spree | Command Line Perplexity is ready to take on Google | Command Line Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Jon Fortt, CNBC journalist, co-host of Closing Bell Overtime, and creator and host of the Fortt Knox podcast. I’m stepping in to guest host a few episodes of Decoder this summer while he’s out on parental leave, and I’m very excited for what we’ve been working on. For my first episode of Decoder, a show about how people make decisions, I wanted to talk to an expert. So I sat down with Cassie Kozyrkov, the CEO and founder of AI consultancy Kozyr and the former chief decision scientist at Google. Read the full transcript over on The Verge. Links:  Google’s ‘chief decision scientist’ explains why she left the company | Fortune What is Decision Science? | DataCamp (YouTube) Is It All About the Data? | DLD24 (YouTube) Cassie Kozyrkov on how AI can be a leadership partner | WorkLab Decision Intelligence with Cassie Kozyrkov | Google Cloud Platform Podcast Why AI and decision-making are two sides of the same coin | Cassie Kozyrkov Google's got a chief decision scientist. Here's what she does | Wired Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this episode of Decoder, Ellis Hamburger — former journalist at The Verge, early Snap employee, and founder of the brand strategy studio Meaning — joins guest host Alex Heath to share why many AI founders are missing the bigger picture. Links: Meaning | Ellis Hamburger Social media is doomed to die | Verge I used the ‘cheat on everything’ AI tool and it didn’t help me cheat on anything | Verge Hideo Kojima sees Death Stranding 2 as a cautionary tale | Verge Apple heard your complaints about the Liquid Glass | Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It’s summertime, which means it’s time for our annual grilling episode. In years past we’ve talked to the leaders of Big Green Egg, Traeger, and Blackstone, and it’s always fascinating how those companies have all the same kinds of problems and ideas as any of the tech companies we have on the show.  This time, I finally had the opportunity to sit down with SharkNinja CEO Mark Barrocas. We’ve wanted to have SharkNinja on the show for years now, mostly because it has the best name of any company I think we’ve ever had on Decoder — it perfectly describes the structure of the company. And just in time for our grilling episode, the Ninja division of Mark’s business just launched its first ever grill.  Check out the full transcript here on The Verge. Links:  Ninja announces its first ever propane grill with the FlexFlame | Tom’s Guide How SharkNinja became a viral marketing machine | Ad Age How airfryer brand SharkNinja became a $1bn UK household name | The Sunday Times Mark Zuckerberg just declared war on the entire advertising industry | Verge Dyson, SharkNinja settle patent lawsuits over bagless vacuums | Bloomberg How arson led to a culture reboot at Traeger | Decoder Big Green Egg is inviting zoomers to the cult of kamado cooking | Decoder How Blackstone became the darling of grill TikTok | Decoder Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Matt Mullenweg, the founder and CEO of Automattic and the public face of WordPress. Last year, Matt essentially went to war, publicly and in the courts, against a hosting company called WP Engine, and there’s been significant fallout at Automattic and the broader WordPress community.   It’s been a long, drawn-out saga. That said, Matt was willing to come on the show and talk through some of this thinking here, why he made some of the decisions he did, and also what he regrets about how some of this went down.  Links:  The messy WordPress drama, explained | Verge Celebrating 20 Years of Automattic | Automattic Matt Mullenweg: ‘WordPress.org just belongs to me’ | Verge Automattic offered employees another chance to quit over | Verge WordPress owner Automattic is laying off 16 percent of workers | Verge Tumblr will move all of its blogs to WordPress | Verge Beeper was just acquired by Automattic | Verge Automattic acquires relationship manager Clay | TechCrunch How WordPress and Tumblr are keeping the internet weird | Decoder How to buy a social network, with Tumblr CEO Matt Mullenweg | Decoder Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Hinge founder and CEO Justin McLeod. Hinge is one of the biggest dating apps in the United States — it’s rivaled only by Tinder, and both are owned by the massive conglomerate Match Group, which has consolidated a huge chunk of the online dating ecosystem. Justin and I dug into that here, and we also explored some of the thorny issues around AI and dating, Hinge’s monetization, and data privacy in the second Trump administration. This is a fun one, with a whole lot going on. I think you’ll like it.  Read the full interview transcript here on The Verge. Links:  How We Do Things | Hinge Hinge’s First Gen Z Report | Hinge Hinge’s new AI feature judges your prompt responses | TechCrunch When Cupid Is a prying journalist | NYT / Modern Love Tinder CEO Faye Iosotaluno to step down in July | CNBC Match Group CEO Rascoff to lead struggling Tinder app | WSJ Replika CEO says it’s okay if we end up marrying AI chatbots | Decoder Apple ordered to keep web links in the App Store | Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices