Snafu w/ Robin Zander

Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I’m talking with Bobby Podesta, longtime Pixar animator and storyteller. We dig into why storytelling and art matter, and why finding your own voice is more important than copying anyone else. Bobby opens up about his journey as an artist, the imposter syndrome he’s faced, and how he learned to create art in a style that’s truly his. We talk about how he turned a written novel into a graphic novel, translating dialogue and descriptions into illustrations along the way. He shares lessons from his college design teacher about noticing the art all around us—not just in museums or galleries. We also explore how design and storytelling balance function and emotion, in ways you might not even realize in everyday life. Bobby’s story shows that creativity isn’t about perfection – it’s about showing up and being authentic. He gives a fresh perspective on how storytelling shapes the way we see the world and connect with others. This episode is full of insights for anyone who cares about art, design, and telling stories that matter. 00:00 Start 03:13 The Importance of Human Connection in Storytelling Bobby on storytelling Background: 30 years in film, always thinking about story structure. Drama is about “what you’re both keeping back and what you’re waiting to surprise your audience with.” Steve Jobs anecdote Jobs builds suspense with “one more thing.” On stage, he asks: “Has anyone ever wondered what this small pocket is for?” (the tiny jeans pocket). Instead of something expected like a coin, he pulls out “the world’s smallest iPod and people flip out.” Why it works: audience knows the pocket’s size → no need to explain iPod’s dimensions. Structure: setup → familiar norm → question → twist → payoff. Bobby’s takeaway: “That’s really good storytelling, man. It’s really good storytelling.” “People call him a salesperson. Like he’s a great salesman. He’s a great storyteller. If you can tell a good story, you’re pulling people in. That’s the key.” Robin on storytelling & AI His work is making commercials and mini-docs for startups. Says video itself doesn’t matter as much as impact: “What I care about is changing human behavior and changing human emotion.” Believes the value of human storytelling is timeless: “The value of sitting at Homer’s feet and listening to him recite the Iliad is never going to go away.” Bobby on storytelling & art Storytelling = fundamental way to convey and connect. Sees it like art: “Art is a way to express your opinion and how you process the world around you in a manner that hopefully other people can experience and relate to.” Calls art his “oldest friend, who I’ve probably treated the worst… neglected, starved, and then expect it to show up and perform.” Believes everyone can create: “Art is not a zero-sum game… art is ultimately subjective because art is an opinion about how you see the world.” Goal of art/storytelling: help others “find some relationship to the world around them through it.” 06:01 Art as a Form of Expression Robin’s setup Grew up between an artist mother and entrepreneur father – “perfect intersection” of art + business. Distinguishes museum art (“old, on walls”) from art that’s “around us all the time.” Points out modern communicators (Musk, Trump) as powerful storytellers/branders – even if you disagree with the content, “that is great art in the form of good communication.” Asks: why do we separate “high” art (Iliad, museums) from everyday, cultural storytelling (Pixar, branding)? Art is everywhere Bobby uses the car-buying analogy to explain awareness: “You’re looking for a midsize pickup and suddenly you see them everywhere. They didn’t just appear. You’re just paying attention.” Art works the same way – once you start noticing, you realize it’s all around you. Lesson from a design teacher: “If it wasn’t dug up or grown, it’s designed.” Everything man-made carries intention – and therefore, art. Pushes back on the museum-only view of art: “Saying art is only in museums is like saying there are only cars at dealerships. There are cars everywhere. There’s art everywhere.” Examples of art woven into daily life: Clothing, headphones, glasses Desks, chairs, pottery, textiles Buildings, skylines, sidewalk prints Freeway dividers, lamps Even tools: “Go get a hammer. The handle’s probably painted a color. It may be a penny’s worth of art, but it’s art, man.” Definition of art: “All these things are working with that balance between functionality and making you feel something.” Even branding choices – a color, a shape – are designed to evoke feeling. Perspective shift: Once you adjust your lens, “there’s a lot of art out there. It’s really, really amazing.” 12:04 The Relationship Between Artist and Art Bobby compares practice to a relationship: “It’s like the people that love you the most, sometimes you treat the worst.” Practice is like a loyal friend or character always waiting: Wants to be fed, but often ignored. Always ready to show up again. “It’s like that little character that shows up and is always there to help you out.” Robin asks if practice is a character on his shoulder. Bobby: “It probably is… but I love it. If there’s a napkin, I’ll doodle.” Art as a shared childhood language: Everyone starts out drawing: “Have you ever met an adult who didn’t draw as a kid? Everyone says yes.” Drawing is how children interpret the world. Family encouragement made “the artist” part of his identity. Becoming a writer: Took a UC Berkeley Extension class called “Finishing the Novel.” Professor’s advice: “You’re all taking classes. None of you are professionals. Go form a writers’ group.” Writers’ group provided accountability → led to a first draft. Draft → literary agent → graphic novel → published book. “Flash forward all these years later and I have a book that comes out… I guess I’m an author.” Lessons on growth and identity: Identity comes from practice and persistence, not instant recognition. Progress isn’t linear: “The road is not a straight line.” Common trap: believing “I should have been there already.” Bobby reframes time: “You can often have what you want, or you can have something when you want it. But you can rarely have what you want when you want it.” Letting go of rigid timelines gives a better chance of arriving. 18:01 The Process of Creating a Graphic Novel Robin asks why this story, why now, and why as a debut novel. Bobby admits he had played with different story ideas before. Thought to himself: “If I only have one chance to do this, what story do I want to tell?” Origin spark: a daydream while driving. “What if an animal just jumped out in front of me?” What if it leapt into the air and flew away? “What if that animal was a reindeer?” Question: what would a reindeer be doing here? That “what if” became the seed of the story. Bobby folded parts of himself into the idea. Loves holiday stories and movies → wanted to write one. Describes storytelling as crafting from a “pantry of experiences.” Not autobiography or documentary, but infused with pieces of his life. Details of the novel: Protagonist is an 11-year-old girl in 1955 Colorado. Bobby: “I was neither alive in 1955, nor have I ever been an 11-year-old girl, nor have I found a flying reindeer — spoiler alert.” Still, fragments of his own experiences and emotions shape the narrative. Goal as an author: To blend reality with imagination. To create something unique, fresh, and able to stand on its own. 20:58 Visual Storytelling vs. Written Storytelling Robin asks about storytelling: what’s similar between Steve Jobs’ two-minute iPod reveal and a 350-page graphic novel? Bobby: scale is different, but fundamentals are the same. Both are about introducing an idea, building drama, and pulling the audience in. Events and books both follow arcs: setup → build → climax → resolution. “He doesn’t start the event with that, he ends the event with that. That’s the climax.” Storytelling has shape across mediums: Characters introduced → audience grows to care → surprises and turns → payoffs. Example: Steve Jobs’ coin pocket reveal → set up, then payoff. In a book, the payoff may come 100 pages later instead of 30 seconds. Analogy: whether you play 30 seconds of a song or an hour-long concert, you’re still using the same fundamentals of music. Robin shifts to Bobby’s background as a visual storyteller. As an animator of 30 years, Bobby is comfortable with visual stories, while Robin is more comfortable with written ones. Robin compares Bobby’s graphic novel to The Bone Compendium (which he revisits often) and contrasts with Heinlein novels he might attempt. Robin: making comics doesn’t have to be like “my mother’s artwork she slaved over for years.” It can be like newspaper comics compiled into story. Asks Bobby for advice on where to begin if he wanted to try sketching a visual story. Bobby’s advice: Many people don’t think visual storytelling is possible for them. Shares personal story: On his first post-college date with his wife (now 25 years married), he said he wanted to write a book. It took him 25 years to actually write one. Never thought of doing a graphic novel because his drawing style didn’t look like Marvel or X-Men. Even as a professional artist, felt imposter syndrome Realization: it’s not about imitating Spider-Man — it’s about drawing in your own style. Art is your opinion expressed visually. Stick figures can work if they serve the story. Doesn’t have to be polished airbrushed paintings. How his graphic novel came about: Originally wrote the story as a regular novel. Sent to publishers with just a few i

Hi everyone, welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. This episode is a little different - instead of me hosting, I was actually the guest on my good friend Josh Levine’s podcast, Great Mondays Radio. Josh and I went deep on a topic I care about a lot: why soft skills are the hard currency of the future. We explored what really sets humans apart in an age of rapid innovation, the rise of AI, and all the talk about machines taking over jobs. We dug into the skills that can’t be automated, the value we bring that AI can never replicate, and why those human capabilities will only matter more in the years ahead. We also touched on leadership, creativity, and how we can all prepare ourselves - and our organizations - for the changes still to come. Please take a moment to subscribe to Josh’s show, Great Mondays Radio. It would mean a lot to both of us, and I know you’ll enjoy the incredible conversations he’s hosting. I’m also excited that Josh will be joining us at Responsive Conference 2025 as a guest - so this won’t be the last time you hear from him in our orbit.

Welcome back to Snafu w/ Robin Zander.  In this episode, I’m joined by Simone Stolzoff – author of The Good Enough Job and the upcoming How to Not Know – and our opening keynote speaker at Responsive Conference 2025. We explore what it means to have an identity beyond your job title, why rest is essential for high performance, and how ritual and community offer grounding in an age of uncertainty. Simone shares how Judaism and Shabbat have shaped his views on balance, the role of “guardrails” over boundaries, and how we can build more durable lives – personally and professionally. We talk about the future of religion, the risks and opportunities of AI, and why books still matter even in a tech-saturated world. Simone also offers practical writing advice, previews his next book, and explains why embracing uncertainty may be the most valuable skill of all. Simone will be speaking live at Responsive Conference 2025, September 17–18, and I can’t wait for you to hear more. If you haven’t gotten your tickets yet, get them here.   Start (00:00) Identity Beyond Titles (01:07.414) What identities do you hold that aren't listed on your LinkedIn? Simone’s Answer: Ultimate frisbee player – “the entirety of my adult life” Aspiring salsa dancer – taking intro classes with his wife Former spoken word poet – “It was the most important thing to me when I was 19 years old.” New father – navigating life with a five-month-old "I encourage people to ask: what do you like to do, as opposed to what do you do?" Shabbat as a Sanctuary in Time (01:58.831) Robin references Simone's TED Talk, focusing on Shabbat as a metaphor for boundary-setting and presence. Simone expands: Shabbat offers a weekly rhythm to separate work from rest. Emphasizes the idea of "sacred time" and intentional disconnection from screens. Shabbat is a “sanctuary in time,” paralleling physical sanctuaries like churches or synagogues. Relates this to work-life balance, noting that intentions alone aren't enough – infrastructure is needed. "We have intentions… but what actually leads to balance is structural barriers." Boundaries vs. Guardrails (04:44.32) Cites Anne Helen Petersen’s metaphor: Boundaries = painted lane lines Guardrails = physical barriers that actually keep you on the road There are calls for more guardrails (structural protections) in modern life. Examples: Airplane mode during playtime with his kid Attending yoga or activities where work can’t creep in "Individually imposed boundaries often break down when the pressures of capitalism creep in." Religion, Ritual & Community (06:48.57) Robin asks how Judaism has shaped Simone’s thinking around work and life. Simone reflects: Religion offers a “container” with a different value system than capitalism. As organized religion declined, people turned to work for identity, meaning, and community. Religion can offer rituals to process uncertainty — e.g., mourning rituals like sitting shiva. Religious or community spaces offer contrast: they don’t care about your career success. "Religion is sort of like a container… with a value system that isn't just about growth charts." "It can be refreshing to say: Day 1, do this. Day 7, go for a walk." Personal journey: Simone reconnected with Judaism in his 30s as he built his own family. Once, went out of obligation, then rejected it, and now see beauty in ritual and intergenerational wisdom. The Future of Religion & Community (09:12.454) Robin theorizes a future rise in spiritual and communal gatherings: Predicts new spiritual movements or evolutions of old ones Notes a hunger for meaningful in-person connection, especially post-AI and amid tech saturation "There's a hunger... as AI and screens define how we relate, people want to gather in person." "I don’t tend to make predictions, but I think this one’s inevitable." Simone agrees... but offers data as contrast: Cites the decline in religious affiliation in the U.S. 1950s: 3–4% unaffiliated Today: Nearly 1 in 3 identify as “Nones” (no religion) Notes reasons: Rising wealth tends to increase secularism The internet creates alternate identity spaces "I do believe there is inevitability in the growth [of spirituality]... But the data points the opposite way." Simone reflects on the factors behind declining religious affiliation: Doubt now builds community – the internet has enabled people to connect around leaving religion as much as practicing it. Political entanglement – many young Americans, especially, are alienated by the perceived overlap between right-wing politics and Christianity. Yet despite this secular trend, the need for meaning, ritual, and purpose remains universal. “There still is this fundamental need to find meaning, to find purpose, to find ritual… even if it’s not in the forms we’re used to.” A Church in the Mission (13:07.182) Robin shares a formative experience from 2016: That year, he launched both Robin’s Café and the first Responsive Conference. When he walked into the theater space that would become his café, he encountered a young, diverse Christian revival group – live music, dancing, and energetic worship happening in a Mission District theater. This juxtaposition – a traditional spiritual gathering inside a modern, “hip” venue – left a lasting impression. “It felt like a revival meeting in the South… except it was full of people my age and younger, partying on a Saturday morning – and it just happened to be church.” You Are More Than Your Work (14:51.182) Robin segues into the idea of multiple identities: He recalls how reading The 4-Hour Work Week helped him embrace not defining himself solely by his entrepreneurial work. Even on tough days running a business, movement and fitness have been a grounding force – something he does daily, independent of career performance. Quotes from Simone’s TED Talk: “Some people do what they love for work; others work so they can do what they love. Neither is more noble.” Robin asks Simone to share the origin of this line and how it connects to the poet Anis Mojgani. Simone recounts a pivotal conversation during college: As a poetry and economics double major, he was wrestling with career path anxiety. He interviewed his favorite poet, Anis Mojgani, asking: “Do you believe in the idea, ‘Do what you love and never work a day in your life’?” Mojgani’s response: “Some people do what they love for work. Others do what they have to so they can do what they love when they’re not working. Neither is more noble.” This countered Simone’s expectations and left a deep impression. He highlights two cases for cultivating a broader identity beyond work: Business Case: High performance requires rest. People with “greater self-complexity” — more identities outside of work — are more creative, more resilient, and more emotionally stable. Moral Case: Investing in other parts of ourselves makes us better citizens, community members, and humans. Singular identity (especially career-based) is fragile and susceptible to collapse — e.g., pandemic layoffs. Solely work-based identity also sets unrealistically high expectations that can lead to disappointment. “You’re balancing on a very narrow platform… You’re susceptible to a large gust of wind.” Robin reflects on how the Responsive Manifesto intentionally avoids prescribing one path: It's not anti-work or anti-grind. Recognizes that sometimes hard work is necessary, especially in entrepreneurship. Shares how his friend’s newsletter, Just Go Grind, embraces the idea that seasons of hustle are sometimes required. “Everyone figuring out their own boundaries is actually the goal.” Work Isn't Good or Bad – It's Complex (18:34.436) Simone adds that society tends to polarize the narrative around work: Some say “burn it all down”, that work is evil. Others say, “Do what you love, or it’s not worth doing.” His book The Good Enough Job argues for a middle way: It’s not hustle propaganda. It’s not a slacker's manifesto. It’s about recognizing that we spend a huge portion of our lives working, so it matters how we approach it, but also recognizing we’re more than just our jobs. He introduces the concept of temporal balance: “There’s a natural seasonality to work.” Sometimes, long hours are necessary (e.g., startup mode, sales targets). But it should be a season, not a permanent lifestyle. What’s the Role of Books in the Age of AI? (22:41.507) Robin poses a forward-looking question: In an age when AI can summarize, synthesize, and generate information rapidly, what’s the role of books? Especially nonfiction, where facts are easier to reproduce. Simone responds with both uncertainty and hope: Human storytelling as a moat: His work relies on reporting, profiling, and character studies — something LLMs can’t yet replicate with nuance. He doesn’t know how long this will remain defensible, but will continue to lean into it. Books are more than information: Books have utility beyond facts: they are entertainment, physical objects, and cultural symbols. Quotes the vibe of being surrounded by books: there's even an untranslatable word (possibly German or Japanese) about the comfort of unread books. A vinyl-record future: Books may become more niche, collectible, or artisanal, similar to vinyl. But they still hold society’s most well-formed, deeply considered ideas. The human touch still matters: A typed note that looks handwritten isn’t the same as a note that is handwritten. People will crave authenticity and human creation, especially in a tech-saturated world. “You can appreciate when something has a level of human touch, especially in an increasingly tech-powered world.” He closes with a self-aware reflection: “I don’t

Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I’m joined by Bree Groff, consultant, writer, and author of Today Was Fun. We talk about why mischief belongs at work, how humor and flirtation create real psychological safety, and the bold design choices behind her unforgettable book cover. Bree shares how she moved from CEO roles to full creative freedom, and how that shift helped her find her voice. We discuss marketing in 2025, how AI might reshape work and writing, and why personal agency, not hours, is the most important lever in a workweek.  Bree offers practical insights for leading with joy, helping kids future-proof their lives, and deciding what’s “enough” in a world that always demands more. She also reflects on writing the book while parenting, consulting, and building her own business, and what it means to embrace the joy of not knowing what comes next. Bree will also be joining us live at Responsive Conference 2025, and I’m thrilled for you to hear her on stage. If you haven’t gotten your tickets yet, get them here. Books Trickster Makes This World: Mischief, Myth, and Art — Lewis Hyde Anansi Boys — Neil Gaiman Work Less, Do More: Designing the 4-Day Week — Alex Pang Shorter: Work Better, Smarter, and Less―Here's How — Alex Pang Rest: Why You Get More Done When You Work Less — Alex Pang Perennial Seller: The Art of Making and Marketing Work that Lasts — Ryan Holiday Today Was Fun — Bree Groff The 4-Hour Workweek —Tim Ferriss Responsive: What It Takes to Create a Thriving Organization — Robin Zander Podcasts/Videos TED Talk: How to Start a Movement — Derek Sivers Start (0:00) The Story Behind the Book Cover (00:07.822) Robin opens with a personal observation: Bree’s nails are the exact shade of green as her book cover – a smiley face on a highlighter yellow-green background.  Bree laughs and explains the choice behind the bold, offbeat cover: It was designed by Rodrigo Corral, known for iconic covers like The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fck*. When she first saw it (at 3 a.m.), she gasped and loved it — it stood out and made a statement. The smiley is cheeky but not cheesy; it suggests optimism with a bite. The color isn’t quite yellow — it’s that “gross green” that almost hurts to look at. That tension is the point. “It’s got some edge... not your straight-up yellow.” This tension – bright and fun, but just a bit weird or off –  is exactly the tone she wanted for the book and for herself. The Wink That Makes Work Fun Again (01:51) Robin brings up his old graduation photo: he posed slightly off-center, adding a knowing smirk. At the time, he didn’t know why he chose that shot, but later realized it made people curious, like a small rebellion baked into something formal. Bree relates completely. She talks about: Why humor and a bit of mischief matter in professional settings. The concept of flirtation – not romantic, but playful: A wink in a branding campaign. A reference that only a few insiders get. A running joke between team members. Mischief creates risk and intimacy, both essential for real connection. These small acts of rebellion are actually signs of psychological safety and creativity. “You need a little bit of flirtation at work... a wink that says, ‘we’re in this together.’” She argues that fun isn’t a distraction – it’s a sign that something is working. Tricksters, SNAFUs, and the Role of Risk in Work (05:49.219) Robin brings in the idea of the trickster, from folklore characters like Anansi and Coyote to his podcast title SNAFU. These figures don’t follow the rules, and that’s what makes them interesting. Bree expands on the connection between play and professionalism: There’s a cultural script that says “seriousness = competence.” But in her experience, some of the best work moments involve play, risk, and even slight embarrassment. Being human together – laughing too loud, saying something weird, trying something bold – is what builds bonds. Real joy at work comes from these edge moments, not the sanitized ones. “You have to go beyond professionalism to access the most fun parts of work.” They agree that creating spaces where people can color outside the lines is not just fun – it’s productive. Beyond Palatable: From People-Pleasing to Belonging (08:29.068) Robin shares a lesson from his mother: that once you leave high school, life is no longer a popularity contest. But he’s realized that in business, especially branding, people often still chase approval and “likability.” Bree offers a deeper lens: Being “palatable” – meaning universally acceptable – is actually the opposite of being memorable. People who try to please everyone end up blending in. What she wants is to be delicious, or at least striking, not for everyone, but unforgettable to some. She draws a line between Fitting in: performing a version of yourself to meet social norms. Belonging: being your full, vibrant self and finding others who welcome it. “Please don’t chew me up. I’m not palatable — I’m not trying to be.” This philosophy shows up in her book’s voice, design, and in how she shows up in the world. Selling a Book in 2025: Bottles in the Ocean (12:21.838) What's it been like trying to promote a book in 2025? Bree describes her strategy as both scrappy and intuitive: She thinks of book marketing as sending “a million notes in bottles” – not knowing which will land. Her approach includes: Partnering with a publicist. Creating swag kits with branded gear. Pitching the book to “chatty” communities (e.g., alumni groups, newsletters, podcast audiences). Posting regularly, even when it feels silly. She cites the idea of “luck surface area”: the more interesting things you do, and the more people you tell, the more chances something will stick. “You do interesting things and talk about them a lot... and maybe something takes off.” Still, she acknowledges that luck plays a role. There’s no guaranteed playbook, just momentum and hope. Is It Worth Talking About? (14:47.63) Robin references a quote from Tucker Max: that all marketing, in the end, is just word-of-mouth. Bree shares what guided her during the writing process: Her goal was to create something remarkable — in the literal sense: Something people would want to talk about. Not just good – but distinct, resonant, and weird enough to share. She wanted to avoid the “business book voice” – flat, generic, overly polished. She lights up when she talks about: Strangers sharing the book on social. Friends are texting her about it. An old college boyfriend resurfaced after reading it. “When that starts happening... You realize the machine is working.” She’s less interested in best-seller lists and more focused on impact – ideas spreading from person to person, because they hit. Finding Her Voice: From Blogger to Book Author (16:36.665) Bree traces the evolution of her writing life: Started a travel blog in her early 20s and loved it immediately. Played with writing publicly over the years: occasional posts on LinkedIn, Fast Company, and later Substack (which began two years ago, alongside early book ideation). Writing always felt natural, but being a public voice within organizations came with constraints: “Even when I was CEO, I still felt the need to toe the party line.” Going solo changed everything: No longer represents a company’s brand – just her own. Writing feels more honest, bolder, and more fun when it’s “Bree Groff’s opinions” alone. Stepping out independently accelerated her writing voice and gave her creative freedom. Writing in the Age of AI (18:19.63) Robin asks: Does writing still matter in the world of AI? Bree’s take: She’s a verbal processor — writing is how she discovers what she believes. “I never know how an article is going to end… I write my way into the idea.” She rarely uses AI in writing (aside from Grammarly). She prefers human composition even for emails. Writing helps her organize and refine her thinking: “I’ll write a sentence and go – wait, do I believe that? And rewrite.” What writing offers that AI can’t (yet): Emotional authenticity. A confessional power — like stand-up comedy: humans telling uncomfortable truths, out loud. She hopes we’ll someday have digital labels like: “This was made by a human.” Robin presses for Bree’s take on what AI changes – for better or worse. Bree’s pessimistic view: Mass unemployment is a likely risk. Not convinced by the “tech creates more jobs” argument – even referencing Jevons Paradox: as things become more efficient, we just use more of them. “I can’t quite think my way out of the unemployment problem.” Bree’s optimistic vision: We’re burned out. AI could fix that. If used right, AI can reduce workloads, not eliminate humans: “Wouldn’t it be great if we used these efficiencies to help people live happy, regulated lives?” This would require a policy change, like tax incentives for companies that adopt a 4-day workweek. But she admits: that’s a long shot. “It would take a lot for companies to prioritize reducing burnout over cutting costs.” Entrepreneurship Isn’t a 4-Day Workweek (And That’s Okay) (25:04.686) Robin challenges Bree’s hope with reality: Entrepreneurship is chaotic and demanding, as when he launched both a restaurant and a conference in one year. When building something from scratch, the work is relentless. “There’s no 4-day workweek when you’re going zero to one.” He notes Bree’s book could become a “perennial seller,” but only if she builds that momentum now — and that means hustle. Bree agrees — and offers nuance: She’s in a launch phase. The last 6 weeks have been intense: Nights, weekends, articles, appearances. Her daughter is in a full-day camp to support

Welcome back to Snafu w/ Robin Zander.  In this episode, I’m joined by Brian Elliott, former Slack executive and co-founder of Future Forum. We discuss the common mistakes leaders make about AI and why trust and transparency are more crucial than ever. Brian shares lessons from building high-performing teams, what makes good leadership, and how to foster real collaboration. He also reflects on raising values-driven kids, the breakdown of institutional trust, and why purpose matters. We touch on the early research behind Future Forum and what he’d do differently today. Brian will also be joining us live at Responsive Conference 2025, and I’m excited to continue the conversation there. If you haven’t gotten your tickets yet, get them here. What Do Most People Get Wrong About AI? (1:53) “Senior leaders sit on polar ends of the spectrum on this stuff. Very, very infrequently, sit in the middle, which is kind of where I find myself too often.”  Robin notes Brian will be co-leading an active session on AI at Responsive Conference with longtime collaborator Helen Kupp. He tees up the conversation by saying Brian holds “a lot of controversial opinions” on AI, not that it’s insignificant, but that there’s a lot of “idealization.” Brian says most senior leaders fall into one of two camps: Camp A: “Oh my God, this changes everything.” These are the fear-mongers shouting: “If you don’t adopt now, your career is over.” Camp B: “This will blow over.” They treat AI as just another productivity fad, like others before it. Brian positions himself somewhere in the middle but is frustrated by both ends of the spectrum. He points out that the loudest voices (Mark Benioff, Andy Jassy, Zuckerberg, Sam Altman) are “arms merchants” – they’re pushing AI tools because they’ve invested billions. These tools are massively expensive to build and run, and unless they displace labor, it’s unclear how they generate ROI. believe in AI’s potential and  aggressively push adoption inside their companies. So, naturally, these execs have to: But “nothing ever changes that fast,” and both the hype and the dismissal are off-base. Why Playing with AI Matters More Than Training (3:29) AI is materially different from past tech, but what’s missing is attention to how adoption happens. “The organizational craft of driving adoption is not about handing out tools. It's all emotional.” Adoption depends on whether people respond with fear or aspiration, not whether they have the software. Frontline managers are key: it’s their job to create the time and space for teams to experiment with AI. Brian credits Helen Kupp for being great at facilitating this kind of low-stakes experimentation. Suggests teams should “play with AI tools” in a way totally unrelated to their actual job. Example: take a look at your fridge, list the ingredients you have, and have AI suggest a recipe. “Well, that’s a sucky recipe, but it could do that, right?” The point isn’t utility,  it’s comfort and conversation: What’s OK to use AI for? Is it acceptable to draft your self-assessment for performance reviews with AI? Should you tell your boss or hide it? The Purpose of Doing the Thing (5:30) Robin brings up Ezra Klein’s podcast in The New York Times, where Ezra asks: “What’s the purpose of writing an essay in college?” AI can now do better research than a student, faster and maybe more accurately. But Robin argues that the act of writing is what matters, not just the output. Says: “I’m much better at writing that letter than ChatGPT can ever be, because only Robin Zander can write that letter.” Example: Robin and his partner are in contract on a house and wrote a letter to the seller – the usual “sob story” to win favor. All the writing he’s done over the past two years prepared him to write that one letter better. “The utility of doing the thing is not the thing itself – it’s what it trains.” Learning How to Learn (6:35) Robin’s fascinated by “skills that train skills” – a lifelong theme in both work and athletics. He brings up Josh Waitzkin (from Searching for Bobby Fischer), who went from chess prodigy to big wave surfer to foil board rider. Josh trained his surfing skills by riding a OneWheel through NYC, practicing balance in a different context. Robin is drawn to that kind of transfer learning and “meta-learning” – especially since it’s so hard to measure or study. He asks: What might AI be training in us that isn’t the thing itself? We don’t yet know the cognitive effects of using generative AI daily, but we should be asking. Cognitive Risk vs. Capability Boost (8:00) Brian brings up early research suggesting AI could make us “dumber.” Outsourcing thinking to AI reduces sharpness over time. But also: the “10,000 repetitions” idea still holds weight – doing the thing builds skill. There’s a tension between “performance mode” (getting the thing done) and “growth mode” (learning). He relates it to writing: Says he’s a decent writer, not a great one, but wants to keep getting better. Has a “quad project” with an editor who helps refine tone and clarity but doesn’t do the writing. The setup: he provides 80% drafts, guidelines, tone notes, and past writing samples. The AI/editor cleans things up, but Brian still reviews: “I want that colloquialism back in.” “I want that specific example back in.” “That’s clunky, I don’t want to keep it.” Writing is iterative, and tools can help, but shouldn’t replace his voice. On Em Dashes & Detecting Human Writing (9:30) Robin shares a trick: he used em dashes long before ChatGPT and does them with a space on either side. He says that ChatGPT’s em dashes are double-length and don’t have spaces. If you want to prove ChatGPT didn’t write something, “just add the space.” Brian agrees and jokes that his editors often remove the spaces, but he puts them back in. Reiterates that professional human editors like the ones he works with at Charter and Sloan are still better than AI. Closing the Gap Takes More Than Practice (10:31) Robin references The Gap by Ira Glass, a 2014 video that explores the disconnect between a creator’s vision and their current ability to execute on that vision. He highlights Glass’s core advice: the only way to close that gap is through consistent repetition – what Glass calls “the reps.” Brian agrees, noting that putting in the reps is exactly what creators must do, even when their output doesn’t yet meet their standards. Brian also brings up his recent conversation with Nick Petrie, whose work focuses not only on what causes burnout but also on what actually resolves it. He notes research showing that people stuck in repetitive performance mode – like doctors doing the same task for decades – eventually see a decline in performance. Brian recommends mixing in growth opportunities alongside mastery work. “exploit” mode (doing what you’re already good at) and  “explore” mode (trying something new that pushes you) He says doing things that stretch your boundaries builds muscle that strengthens your core skills and breaks stagnation. He emphasizes the value of alternating between  He adds that this applies just as much to personal growth, especially when people begin to question their deeper purpose and ask hard questions like, “Is this all there is to my life or career? Brian observes that stepping back for self-reflection is often necessary, either by choice or because burnout forces a hard stop. He suggests that sustainable performance requires not just consistency but also intentional space for growth, purpose, and honest self-evaluation. Why Taste And Soft Skills Now Matter More Than Ever (12:30) On AI, Brian argues that most people get it wrong. “I do think it’s augmentation.” The tools are evolving rapidly, and so are the ways we use them. They view it as a way to speed up work, especially for engineers, but that’s missing the bigger picture. Brian stresses that EQ is becoming more important than IQ. Companies still need people with developer mindsets – hypothesis-driven, structured thinkers. But now, communication, empathy, and adaptability are no longer optional; they are critical. “Human communication skills just went from ‘they kind of suck at it but it’s okay’ to ‘that’s not acceptable.’” As AI takes over more specialist tasks, the value of generalists is rising. People who can generate ideas, anticipate consequences, and rally others around a vision will be most valuable. “Tools can handle the specialized knowledge – but only humans can connect it to purpose.” Brian warns that traditional job descriptions and org charts are becoming obsolete. Instead of looking for ways to rush employees into doing more work, “rethink the roles. What can a small group do when aligned around a common purpose?” The future lies in small, aligned teams with shared goals. Vision Is Not a Strategy (15:56) Robin reflects on durable human traits through Steve Jobs' bio by Isaac Walterson. Jobs succeeded not just with tech, but with taste, persuasion, charisma, and vision. “He was less technologist, more storyteller.” They discuss Sam Altman, the subject of Empire of AI. Whether or not the book is fully accurate, Robin argues that Altman’s defining trait is deal-making. Robin shares his experience using ChatGPT in real estate. It changed how he researched topics like redwood root systems on foundational structure and mosquito mitigation. Despite the tech, both agree that human connection is more important than ever. “We need humans now more than ever.” Brian references data from Kelly Monahan showing AI power users are highly productive but deeply burned out. 40% more productive than their peers. 88% are completely burnt out. Many don’t believe their company’s AI strategy, even whi

Hello and welcome back to Snafu, a podcast about behavior change.  Pamela Larde, PhD is a scholar and expert on the topic of joy. She is the author of Joyfully Single: A Revolutionary Guide to Enlightenment, Wholeness, and Change and a professor of Leadership Development at Anderson University. Her mission is to help develop leaders who lead with heart.  Pamela illustrates the role of joy as a powerful tool, empowering individuals to cultivate resilience and gracefully navigate the myriad challenges life presents. Through her teachings, the concept of joy transforms into more than just an emotion—it becomes a reservoir of strength, an anchor of optimism, and a guide to living life to the fullest. In this episode, we talk about the importance of joy at work and in life, the difference between happiness and joy, what to expect from her at Responsive Conference, and more.  Pamela is an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven’t yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets It was a pleasure having Pamela on the podcast!  

Hello and welcome back to Snafu, a podcast about behavior change. For today’s episode, I sat down with Carole Robin, PhD – an expert in leadership development and interpersonal dynamics. She is best known for her work at Stanford Graduate School of Business, where she taught the infamous "Interpersonal Dynamics" course. This course is considered one of the most transformative experiences for MBA students. Her expertise in this field led her to co-author the book Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends and Colleagues, which was featured as one of Bloomberg's Best Books of 2021.  In this episode, we talk about the key to great leadership, why relationships are so important in your life, what we can expect from her at Responsive Conference 2024, and more. Carole is an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven’t yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets It was a pleasure having Carole on the podcast!

Hello and welcome back to Snafu, a podcast about behavior change.! For today’s episode, I sat down with Michael Melcher – author, executive coach, and lawyer. He's best known for his book Your Invisible Network: How to Create, Maintain, and Leverage the Relationships That Will Transform Your Career, a practical guide on building meaningful relationships. Michael’s background includes a law degree from Harvard Law School and experience in both law and consulting. He writes and speaks on topics related to career management, personal development, and leadership. In this episode, we talk about how to network effectively without feeling awkward, the importance of nurturing relationships every single day, how personal experiences have shaped Michael’s understanding of community and connection, and more.  Michael is also an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven’t yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets It was a pleasure having Michael on the podcast!  

Hello and welcome back to Snafu, a podcast about behavior change.! For today’s episode, I sat down with Abby Davisson, former president of the Gap Foundation, and author who has worked in the fields of social impact and corporate philanthropy. Abby believes in using business to make positive changes in society. She recently published a book called Money and Love: An Intelligent Roadmap for Life's Biggest Decisions. In this book, she talks about how to make important choices in life, especially when it comes to balancing money concerns with personal relationships and happiness.  In this episode, we talk about social impact through work, money being more taboo than sex, going from intern to president at Gap Foundation, why her graduate degree was the best investment of her life, and much more.  Abby is also an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven’t yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets It was a pleasure having Abby on the podcast!  

Hello and welcome back to Snafu, a podcast about behavior change! For today’s episode, I sat down with Alex Soojung-Kim Pang, a Silicon Valley-based author, consultant, and researcher famous for advocating for the  4-day work week.  Alex has become a leading advocate for the concept of "deliberate rest" through his books Rest: Why You Get More Done When You Work Less and Work Less, Do More.   Alex challenges traditional notions of productivity, arguing that strategic periods of rest and shorter working hours lead to higher productivity, more creativity, and better job satisfaction.  In this episode, we talk about why we should work less and not more, the importance of deliberate rest in work, breaking work down into smaller tasks, and much more.  Alex is also an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven’t yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets It was a pleasure having Alex on the podcast!

Hello and welcome back to The Robin Zander Show! For today’s episode, I sat down with Sally Thornton, the founder and CEO of Forshay. Forshay is a company that specializes in executive recruiting and improving workplace dynamics through diversity and inclusion. She has a background in creating innovative solutions for work-life balance and has been a speaker at various conferences, including TEDx talks.  In this episode, Sally and I talk about the science of work, how to be a good leader, doing work you love, and much more. Sally is also an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven’t yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets It was a pleasure having Sally on the podcast!

Hello and welcome back to The Robin Zander Show! For today’s episode, I sat down with Michael Bugay Steiner, author of books that have sold a million copies, including The Coaching Habit, a self-published book that’s become the best-selling book on coaching this century.  Michael Bungay Stanier is a speaker and executive coach. As the founder of Box of Crayons, he's trained thousands of managers in coaching skills. Michael’s work focuses on helping people unlock their potential and create more effective workplace cultures. In this episode, Michael and I talk about turning your weaknesses into strengths, giving feedback the right way, talking about how to work together before you actually work together, and much more. It was a pleasure having Michael on the podcast!

Hello and welcome back to The Robin Zander Show! For today’s episode, I sat down with New York Times bestselling author, Charles Duhigg. In this episode, Charles and I talk about the art of communication and the insights from his new book, "Super Communicators." We explore how effective communication is a skill that anyone can learn, focusing on the importance of asking deep questions to connect with others.Charles shares his experiences, including lessons from his time as a reporter in Iraq, and how understanding the types of conversations – practical, emotional, and social – can improve relationships. It was a pleasure having Charles on the podcast! Find his book here: https://www.charlesduhigg.com/supercommunicators

The Habit of Doing Hard Things I appreciate the irony. Do hard things, move to the Caribbean! And while most of us probably aren’t going to move to a tiny island in order to make our lives more difficult, there are a lot of simple habits that can help. Identify One Thing  Every Day That Scares You Identify something that scares you. Notice someone you are intimidated by.  Recognize a moment when you avoided speaking up. Identify one moment in your day when you feel physically nervous or afraid. You don’t need to take action – not yet! Just bring attention to one uncomfortable moment.  Start with awareness. A Daily Movement Practice There is a lot to be said for daily exercise.  Exercise is hard. When you push your physical limits, you get better at pushing the boundaries of what’s possible everywhere else in your life, too. Unfortunately, more than two thirds of Americans are overweight or obese, so clearly pressuring people to exercise does work for everyone. My approach to movement is different. Having broken my neck and then gone on to perform in the circus, I also know the consequences of pressure. Instead, I make a habit of moving every day to build the confidence that I can learn new things. If you’re interested, here’s a short video about my movement practice. Coffee Shop Challenge (h/t Tim Ferriss) Try this challenge: go to your local coffee shop and ask for a 20% discount.  The rules are that you are not allowed to give any explanation for why you are requesting a discount or any additional details alongside your request. If asked, “Why?” just say that you would like a discount and that is why you are asking.  The point of this exercise is that you are going to be uncomfortable. It will take you outside of your comfort zone.  Notice how it feels to make this request. Notice the tension in your body and  your voice. It doesn’t ultimately matter if you get a discount or not, so long as you try.  As a former coffee shop owner, please give that 20% back to your barista as a tip!   Do Something Difficult Every Day Do one thing today that is out of your comfort zone. It could be as small as a short exchange with a stranger, a much-needed conversation, or advocating for your opinion. Thank someone in their native language - If you first have to learn to say “thank you” in a language you don’t speak, all the better. Have a conversation with your spouse or a friend - You probably have something that you’ve been meaning to share, but haven’t gotten around to saying yet. Say it! Try to persuade someone of something - We are all selling to and inviting each other constantly. Advocate for your preferred restaurant or movie. When my friends first moved to Vieques, I was skeptical. I’m all for beautiful ocean views, but it was so remote and isolated. (And the hurricanes!) Now that I’ve spent a month living in that remote paradise, I understand their motivation a little better.  Living there is difficult. Every day is a stretch. And that’s the point! In a world where I – and probably you – enjoy every other modern convenience, it is easy to get complacent.  Perhaps, we could all use a bit more discomfort in our lives.  

There are a lot of things about being an entrepreneur that I avoid, but one of the silliest is opening physical mail. When I was starting Robin’s Cafe, I got a lot of mail - plans from the San Francisco planning department, legal documents, food permitting, alcohol permitting, pest control notifications, more. I was so busy figuring out the day-to-day of running the business that I developed the bad habit of just ignoring mail and leaving the pile to build up on my desk for weeks on end. When I finally got around to dealing with the pile, there was always a notice that I’d ignored for too long - a vendor I was late to pay, an IRS document I’d missed, etc. As we all do when a task is too big, I came to dread opening my mail. Failure as discouragement When you fail at a task, the experience is often one of discouragement, and that discouragement leads to a diminished desire to attempt that same task in the future. As I discussed recently, success is usually tied to positive feelings and the release of dopamine. Negative feelings often have the opposite effect and result in a feedback loop of negativity and failure. For me, that meant avoiding the mail until I discovered late bills, which meant I’d continue to dread opening mail and let it pile up further. Failure is often a sign that the task you are trying to undertake is too big. A trick, then, is to leverage the cue of the negative feelings of “I can’t do this” into action and try again, but make the next attempt different. One way to do this is to break the task down into smaller parts. Make the next step smaller When you are overwhelmed by a new behavior, the easiest way to tackle it is by making the next step smaller. I don’t need to open and respond to all of my mail on the day it arrives. A small step is to open every envelope, even if I don’t take the mail out right away. This small step moves things forward and makes the next steps - removing the contents, reading them, responding - easier. Take your large goal and just take one small step in the right direction. Create positive associations I have a letter opener that I really love - it is a beautiful folding knife with an olivewood handle. I’ve learned, in the years since Robin’s Cafe, that I derive a particular delight in opening mail with this knife. Look for ways that you can create positive associations around the edges of the habit you’ve been avoiding. Positive feelings equate to feelings of success. Play more Play and self-judgment are antithetical. When we are being playful or curious with a habit, it is impossible to regard an outcome as a “failure.” The best way I know how to play - especially when I’m not feeling playful - is to get profoundly curious about the task I’m trying to accomplish. Another is to make a game of the process. Personally, I get delighted when I see weeks worth of dealt-with mail pile up in my recycling bin! Look for a step by step breakdown You can almost always find a step-by-step breakdown of the task you are trying to accomplish. Google “how to do x” or interview someone better at that thing than you are. If you’ve hit a roadblock and aren’t sure how to make a task more manageable, someone else has likely solved this problem before you. In writing this article, I asked a few friends about how they handled their daily deluge of mail and got some interesting ideas I’ll try in the future! At Zander Media, I receive 10x less physical mail than I did at the cafe. And while there are still remnants of my avoidant behavior, I’m excited to reframe failure as a cue for novel action. These days, I look for areas of my life where I’ve historically failed and replace the cue of failure with the understanding that I haven’t made that behavior small enough, yet. Now, your turn: what’s something you’ve failed at, recently? Reply back and I’ll respond with one idea for how to turn that failure into a learning opportunity! Until next time, Robin

I’m traveling with my family to Mexico for two weeks this winter. The trip is a throwback to holidays from my childhood. Every other year, my family avoided the holidays altogether and traveled to Latin America. As a kid, I was sad to miss the holidays, but in retrospect those international trips were formative. This will be the first family trip in a decade and the first time with my nephews (7 and 10). Know why When I took a month-long trip with my mother to Ghana, I had to get very clear in the months leading up to the trip why I was going. And my purpose for taking the trip wasn’t to have a great experience. Visiting Ghana was a lifelong dream of my mother’s and a trip she wouldn’t have attempted alone. My primary reason for going to Africa was to support her; to facilitate her having a positive experience. As you are heading into an experience with family, ask yourself why you are prioritizing spending time in this way: What are you hoping to get out of it? What do you want for your family members? The more clearly you know why, the better you will be at boundaries and making productive use of the time. Habit: Write down 10 different reasons “why” you are taking the action that you are. They won’t all feel true, but you’ll find something new through the exercise. There’s no problem so big you can’t walk away I use this phrase, which is oft repeated by a close friend, to remind myself that I have agency. We always have the ability to leave – even when it feels like we don't. It is something of a cardinal sin in my family to leave a conversation or issue unresolved. And yet I’m always calmer for stepping away for ten minutes and coming back to the issue later. Any of us is free to take a break or walk away at any time. Habit: Remind yourself, maybe even aloud, that “There’s no problem so big I can’t walk away.” Repeating that serves as a reminder that you are not stuck in a difficult situation. Take a pee break Years ago, a friend taught me the trick of taking a “pee break.” Maybe you actually need to use the toilet, but that's beside the point. The goal is that when you are upset you take a couple of minutes to reorient yourself and come back refreshed. Under very few circumstances is it considered socially inappropriate to take a couple of minutes out of a conversation “because I have to use the restroom.” And often you come back better able to handle whatever challenge has been going on. Habit: Practice “taking a pee break” when the stakes are low. During an otherwise unheated conversation say, “I'll be back in 2 minutes. I need to use the restroom.” The better you get at taking a break, the better you’ll be able to when things get heated. Therapy with family I'm a proponent of facilitated conversation: therapy, coaching or anything else that works for you. In advance of our trip to Ghana, my mother and I went to therapy together. The objective was to create some guidelines about what we might expect while we were traveling in Africa, and how to collaborate better. My mother and I walked out of therapy with a new willingness to listen to each other, which led to a gentler trip in Ghana then might have happened otherwise. (It was still an intense experience!) Habit: Organize a facilitated conversation. It might not change anything, but it might also result in less drama. Family meetings We had regular family meetings growing up. Once every few weeks, our family of four would sit down and discuss challenges that had come up recently. I don't remember what got discussed, but “let’s have a family meeting” remains my family’s shorthand when communication is getting tough. Habit: Schedule a brief “family meeting.” The goal isn't to change anybody's behavior, but to create space for airing of grievances – so they don't bubble over at inopportune times. ​ As I get ready to spend two weeks in close quarters with my family in Mexico, I know that I am going to need to practice a lot of these habits and tools. I hope that one of these habits is useful for you as you head into your own holiday plans. Until next time, Robin

I've always believed that in order to acknowledge what’s going well in my life, I have to first solve any difficult emotional situations. Over the last few years, I've come to realize that it is often more effective to focus on the positive, instead of first trying to solve the negative. Instead of waiting for things to go just right, it's more effective – and more fun – to focus on what is already going well. Here are some tools that can help… Celebrate the small things By celebrating the small things that are going well – no matter how small they are – we get more practice celebrating. Don’t wait for things to go well in order to celebrate. Practice and you'll be surprised at how quickly you feel good about seemingly mundane things in your life. Habit: First thing each morning, write down one small thing that went well from the day before. Flip the judgement I have daily practice with my best friend: we phone each other and inquire “Is there a judgment that you would like to flip?” We pick a negative judgment – that we’re holding about ourselves or in the world around us – and look for the positive. If I’m berating myself for a misunderstanding with my mother, I’ll look for ways in which that misunderstanding could be beneficial. If I’m judging myself for pushing through an injury, I’ll examine how that pain could actually be helpful and result in recovery. By taking something that you are judging as bad and looking for the positive in that same example, you are "flipping the judgement” and practicing gratitude. Habit: Flipping judgements requires a lot of mental dexterity, so start small. Pick something small that you are judging as bad. Write a few sentences about how that situation could, hypothetically, be beneficial. Worst case scenario Tim Ferriss popularized the idea of “fear setting” through this TED talk. The purpose is to identify the worst case scenarios, which usually turns out to not be quite so bad. My worst case scenario usually ends up with me shitting my pants in public and leaving the country in humiliation. But even in my hypothetical worst case scenarios, I usually survive and learn from the experience. For extra credit, you can also explore the Best case scenario! Habit: When you’re considering something you are scared of, ask yourself “What’s the worst thing that could happen?” Write down a few of your answers. What went well exercise What went well is my favorite among the many exercises Martin Seligman, teaches in his book Flourish. Historically, psychology research focused on “abnormal” psychology or problems to be solved. More than 30 years ago, Seligman began researching and teaching tools that help everyone improve. One exercise that Seligman teaches is “What went well.” Very simply, the practice is to list out three things every day that have gone well. The practice forces you to focus on the specifics of what has gone well. By bringing attention to them, you recognize them, reinforce them and make them bigger. Habit: Write down three things that went well for you in the last day. Feel shine In Tiny Habits, BJ Fogg coined the word “Shine” to describe the internal positive emotion we give ourselves when we’ve done something well. When we reward ourselves with that internal feeling of celebration, we create a positive feedback loop. For more on Shine, here’s an article on the topic from TED. Habit: Take 2 minutes and deliberately feel good about something you’ve done today. Pat yourself on the back, pump your fist or smile in the mirror. Look for awe I was sitting in the sauna a few weeks ago and struck up a conversation with UC Berkeley Professor Dacher Keltne, who has spent his career studying awe. As we began to talk about his research I was reminded of the life changing moment when I first saw the circus. My parents took me to see Cirque du Soleil's Alegria, shortly after I began studying gymnastics at 17 years old. Watching the acrobats opened my eyes to what the human body is capable of and led to the last few decades of my movement career. Awe has the capacity to fundamentally change our perspective and widen our world view. (I’m also going to attend the professor’s last class of the year next week. I'll report back) Habit: Seek out awe. Whether through a beautiful view, over a meal with family or in listening to great music, look for an experience of awe. When you open yourself to the feeling of awe, you’re more likely to experience it. ​ As you spend time with friends and family this holiday weekend, or go about your life, I hope one of these tools is helpful.

Everything You Know About Sales is Wrong Everything in life is sales. From inviting your child to do her homework, to deciding where to go for dinner, to encouraging a colleague at work, the situations we encounter daily are filled with the dynamic of sales and persuasion. And, unfortunately, most of what you know about sales is wrong. What is Sales? My favorite example of sales comes from a scene from the classic Christmas movie Miracle on 34th Street. In Miracle, the Macy’s department store Santa asks each child who sits on his lap what they want for Christmas. Santa then tells the family where they can purchase that toy at the best price, even if it means at a competing department store. At first, the store manager is outraged that Santa is supporting his competitors - until he sees enthusiastic customers returning to Macy’s because of the excellent customer service. The value to Macy’s of Santa’s recommendations is greater than the sale of a single children’s toy; it’s customer loyalty. Sales is having a clear solution – a service, opportunity or opinion – that can help to solve somebody’s problem. Like Santa, good sales means aligning yourself with the interests of the person you are talking to, to discover if your solution is a good fit for them. If it is, invite them toward your solution, and if not, move on. How to Do It Wrong Sales and persuasion are most often practiced with pressure and urgency. Think of the reputation of a car salesman – pushy, fast-talking, deceptive. They aren’t considering what is best for the customer. They only want to sell a specific car at the best possible price. The result: nobody enjoys the experience and the customer won’t recommend that product or service in the future. Pressure and urgency can work, but only in the short-term. They don’t increase trust or loyalty. How to Do It Right A Process of Discovery Done well, sales and persuasion should be a process of discovery. Instead of using force, inquire about what your friend wants to eat for dinner. Get curious about why your colleague doesn’t want to do the work assigned to them. When you start by asking questions about what someone is looking to solve – for themselves, their business, or their family – you'll discover if what you are selling is a good fit for the other person. People relate through the stories that you tell them, so share your experience, too. As I discussed in “Everything is Storytelling,” your story should be brief, personal and relatable. Useful Beliefs About Sales and Persuasion Abundance - If the person you are talking to doesn’t want the solution you are offering, somebody else will. There are between 7 and 8 billion people in the world today. If the person you are talking to is not a good fit, move on. Believe it - Believe in what you are selling. That doesn’t mean that it is valuable to every single prospective buyer, only they can tell you that. But believing that it is valuable in the world makes closing easier, genuine, and fun. Decrease the stakes - There are very few game changing moments in life, and this specific sale isn’t likely to be one of them. Whether or not you make this sale today isn’t likely to matter over the course of your or your customer’s life. Autonomy - Foster the belief that everybody knows what's best for themselves. You aren’t trying to convince anyone, but rather inviting them to entertain if what you’re offering is a good fit for them. Look for “What I’ve learned” - It is useful to hold that even if you don't close a sale, you will have learned a lot along the way. This practice of iteration and repeated repetitions will make you better at closing future sales. Put in the Reps Improving at sales is a matter of practice and incremental improvement. Many of the most successful salespeople and deal makers in the world have practiced tens of thousands of times. Sales is as much a performance as trying out for a sport or auditioning for a play, and practice makes for consistency. Your Attitude Closes Deals Who you are and how you show up with a prospective customer is what will determine whether they buy. Who you are closes deals. Maintain an attitude of enthusiasm and want what is best for the other person. You'll have a better chance of having things go your way. ​ Next time you are debating with your spouse about the dishes, trying to get your child to do their homework, or asking an employee to fill out their hours, think of Santa, sitting in Macy's department store, referring customers to the competition. Until next time, Robin

Two years ago, my best friend was diagnosed with Stage 3 breast cancer. Two months ago, I went through a breakup. Whether personally or globally, challenges arise. Someone you love dies. A friend lets you down. You’re forced to confront your own aging or an aging parent. Grief is complicated. We aren’t taught much about it or how to deal with it. It is important to take time to mourn a loss. Here are some habits and practices that might help.   The role of emotions Sometimes emotions are almost too much to handle. You’ll criticize yourself, or other people. You are less happy or healthy than you want to be. But, it turns out, without emotions, we are unable to function in the world. There are some interesting studies done on the role of emotions. When someone suffers brain damage such that they can’t experience emotion, they are also unable to make decisions. While you sometimes might prefer to do without emotions, the alternative is much worse. You can’t enjoy the beautiful things in life if you don’t also experience some of the challenges. Habit: When you are grieving, find something in the same situation, however small, to be grateful for. ​ Take time to grieve Grief sneaks up at random times. When you least expect it, you may see something that reminds you of someone who’s died and the upswell of emotion can be hard to handle. It doesn’t have to be an actual death, either. The loss of a relationship, or even a missed opportunity can be something we need to grieve. It helps to take time to grieve. Difficult emotions will still come up, but setting aside time does help. Habit: During a difficult time, carve out at least one minute a day to be present to your emotions. I like to set an alarm on my phone as my cue. I prefer to write during this pause, but any reflective activity can help. ​ Don’t judge your process Everyone’s process for getting over a challenging situation is different. It might mean going to therapy or bitching to a friend. I process emotions by waking up at 5 a.m. full of adrenaline and going for a hard run. The key is not to judge yourself for the fact that you are grieving. Then you’re not only feeling bad, but you are beating yourself up about it, too. Don’t judge your process. Habit: Recognize what helps you. Take 10 minutes and write down a list of things that help you take care of yourself. ​ Grief takes the time that it takes I was in a serious car accident last year. I knew that it would take some time to heal and I was gentle with myself for the first couple of weeks. But a few weeks in, I started getting anxious to get back to my movement practice and the rest of my life. I wasn’t in pain, but I was still very shaken up and the added pressure didn’t help. In all, it took more than six months to get back to baseline. Just like healing from physical injury, grief can’t be rushed. Healing happens on its own time. Habit: If you find yourself pressuring yourself to “get over it,” decide on a timeline. Give yourself one day, one week, or one month where you won’t pressure yourself to “be there” already. ​ Don’t use force The Morningstar Company, which I wrote about in my book Responsive: What It Takes To Create A Thriving Organization, is one of the largest tomato manufacturers in the world. What makes the company unique is that it is self-managed by the employees. One of the company’s two core tenets is “Don’t use force” in working with each other. We’re accustomed to using anger, pressure, and blame at work – but at what cost? To the detriment of relationships, our own health, and building the habit of doing more in the future. Instead of trying to force yourself to feel better, acknowledge your grief. Take time to feel what you are feeling. Habit: You wouldn’t use force – physically or emotionally – with a young child or in an intimate moment with a partner. Treat yourself that same way, even if only for a moment. ​ We don’t get to control what happens to us or to the people we love. (I can’t. If you’ve figured out how – please email me!) But we do get to control how we respond. Grief is a natural part of life. It is how we make sense of what’s happened and move forward. When you’re going through a challenge, take the time to acknowledge your grief. I hope some of these habits help.

Hello and welcome back to The Robin Zander Show!  For this week’s episode, I sat down with Eden Full Goh, the founder & CEO of Mobot.  Eden founded Mobot, a physical testing infrastructure in the cloud after her experience as a Product Manager. She noticed how challenging it was to do regression testing on mobile apps and created Mobot as the solution.  In this episode, we take a deep dive into her experience learning how to Coxswain (leading a team of rowers) and how that ties into entrepreneurship. We also talk about the companies she built leading up to Mobot and her experience as a Thiel Fellow.  It was a pleasure sitting down to chat. I hope you enjoy this spirited and comprehensive conversation!