Summary
Alexander Rose (Website; Twitter) joins Andrew (Twitter; LinkedIn) to discuss a gripping spy-vs-spy true story from the U.S. Civil War. He wrote the book that was the inspiration behind the hit TV-series TURN.
What You’ll Learn
Intelligence
The secret plot to build a Confederate Navy
Why Liverpool was so important to both the North and the South
How Civil War espionage played out in Great Britain
The high-level spy the South had in the British Foreign Office
Reflections
The birth of the Atlantic World
The malleability of public opinion
And much, much more …
Episode Notes
Liverpool. The city of the Beatles. The home of Liverpool F.C., winner of six European Cups. Did you know that there – thousands of miles away from the bloody battlefields of Fredericksburg, Shiloh, and Gettysburg – the U.S. Civil War played out?
In fact, it was a key part of the strategies of both the North and the South since at that time it produced more ships than every other dockyard in the world combined. The North wanted to choke off the South, with the help of spies; but the South wanted to build a navy, with the help of spies. Who would prevail? This is the story of spy-vs-spy, North vs South, and Thomas Dudley vs James Bulloch.
And…
If this spy story makes you hungry for more, check out Alex’s historical espionage newsletter, Spionage.
Quotes of the Week
“If Dudley hadn't stopped Bulloch, or if Dudley hadn't existed and Bulloch created this massive fleet of blockade runners and had built more commerce raiders … You would've had a many more sinkings of American merchant vessels. You would've had larger inflows of arms and weapons into the South. The biggest change of all would've been that having the sea lanes open like that would've allowed the South to fight on much longer than it actually did.”
Resources
SURFACE SKIM
Andrew’s Recommendation
You must watch Ken Burns landmark documentary The Civil War; but, you must also read more recent commentary and critique – there’s even a whole book related to it.
Headline Resource
The Lion and the Fox: Two Rival Spies and the Secret Plot to Build a Confederate Navy, A. Rose (Mariner, 2022)
*Beginner Resources*
Civil War: Evolution of Espionage in America, INTEL.gov (n.d.) [digital exhibition]
The History of Liverpool, Historic UK (2018) [webpage]
Liverpool and the American Civil War, National Museums Liverpool (n.d.) [short article]
British Support During the U.S. Civil War, LDHI (n.d.) [digital exhibit]
DEEP DIVE
*SpyCasts*
George Sharpe and the BMI – Peter Tsouras (2019)
Intelligence in the Early Republic – Ken Diagler (2015)
The Beginnings of U.S. Overhead Reconnaissance – Jim Green (2014)
Intelligence and Espionage in the U.S. Civil War - William Feis (2012)
Books
The Civil War Abroad, J. Priestley (McFarland, 2022)
Cotton, Liverpool and the American Civil War, J. Powell, (LUP, 2020)
Lincoln’s Spies, D. Waller (S&S, 2019)
Liar, Temptress, Soldier, Spy, K. Abbott (Harper, 2015)
The Union and Confederate Navies, J. McPherson (University of North Carolina, 2012)
The Civil War at Sea, C. Symonds (Oxford, 2012)
Articles
Liverpool, site of last surrender in US Civil War, S. Abdelaziz, CNN (2020)
CSS Alabama: Lost and Found, Naval History & Heritage Command (2020)
Primary Sources
The Secret Service of the Confederate States in Europe, J.D. Bulloch (1882)
Letter from J.D. Bulloch to General McRae et al (1865)
Dudley Introduces Lincoln to a Liverpudlian Union Sympathizer (1863)
Dudley’s Concerns About Southern Secession (1860)
*Wildcard Resource(s)*
You know Liverpool as the city of the Beatles. Did you know that The Beatles’ first single “Love Me Do” and James Bond’s debut movie “Dr. No” were released within a month of each other in 1962? And while none of the Beatles went on to become spies themselves, Ringo married Bond girl Barbara Bach in 1980 and Paul was behind the first rock Bond theme song, “Live and Let Die,” in 1973.
I worked at SHAPE at the time and I worked quite a Lot with ACE CI. But this guy is full of shit. The bullshit of his story is seething out of my speaker. Laughable!
this was great, please have more Australians on!
really getting tired of all the woke BS on every damm episode. Used to be a good podcast, but is tiresome now. Could get back to spycraft instead of social justice?
Absolutely amazing. What a wonderful woman. Thank you Marthe for your dedication and bravery ensuring our freedom. Sending much love your way for a wonderful life in your twighlight years. 💕
yay finally an episode on Australia! I would suggest you do more on other countrys' intelligence starting with Five Eyes
is there a part 2, this seems to just cut out
very interesting podcast
Lost me when he started on limiting "hate speech." More boilerplate leftism. Fine and well if you just announce that this is his perspective, but to pretend that it's just obvious for combating counterterrorism is disingenuous. I'm starting to worry about this podcast. The previous host was carefully apolitical, this guy just doesn't seem to care that much about being balanced.
Would've been better to leave personal political beliefs out of the discussion.
surely Spycast can do better than Vince Houghton.....his liberal bias is a turn off and a big reason why I don't listen to Spycast anymore. I can get the leftist agenda on another channel.
This is pathetic. Liz wahl. Lol
love the show I've been listening 4 about half a year now, I've started with the old shows and throw a few new ones in here and there. 5 out of 5 stars one of my favorite podcast. however this episode I cannot hear your guests at all they sound very whisper ear quiet. using voice to text at work. keep up the good work, again love the show thanks for doing what you do
This cuts off at the end! You'd think that after years of this podcast, the quality would get better...
more Dangerous than Chicago. LA and Newyork?.
Bore score 100%. Enough callow youths!
Campbell's hasty speech is that of a nervous gabbler, and his Trump-like massacring of English syntax and grammar suggests incoherency of thought. God help USA if its safety depends upon jittery minds such as Campbell's.
Worst episode ever. Total circle-jerk among desktop spooks. No wonder taxes are high.
Dylan Thomas was Welsh, not Irish you ignoramus.
Hardly audible. TURN VOLUME UP!
once an interesting podcast but now all the guests are leftist leaning, no doubt to the pleasure of the admitted leftist host, never a mention of the obvious and verifiable effort by obamas administration to illegally manipulate the 2016 election in Clinton's favor. this podcast should be renamed trash Trump and occasionally other topics