Sustain

Guests Ben Nickolls | Andrew Nesbitt Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard is joined by guests Ben Nickolls and Andrew Nesbitt to discuss the ecosyste.ms project. They explore how ecosyste.ms collects and analyzes metadata from various open-source projects to create a comprehensive database that can help improve funding allocation. The discussion covers the importance of funding the most critical open-source projects, the existing gaps in funding, and the partnership between ecosyste.ms and Open Source Collective to create funding algorithms that support entire ecosystems. They also talk about the challenges of maintaining data, reaching out to project maintainers, and the broader implications for the open-source community. Hit the download button now! [00:01:58] Andrew and Ben explain ecosyste.ms, what it does, and how it compares to Libraries.io. [00:04:59] Ecosyste.ms tracks metadata, not the packages themselves, and enriches data via dependency graphs, committers, issues, SBOMs, and more. [00:06:54] Andrew talks about finding 1,890 Git hosts and how many critical projects live outside GitHub. [00:08:37] There’s a conversation on metadata uses and SBOM parsing. [00:12:49] Richard inquires about the ecosystem.ms funds on their website which Andrew explains it’s a collaboration between Open Collective and ecosyste.ms. that algorithmically distributes funds to the most used, not most popular packages. [00:15:45] Ben shares how this is different from previous projects and brings up a past project, “Back Your Stack” and explains how ecosyste.ms is doing two things differently. [00:18:59] Ben explains how it supports payouts to other platforms and encourages maintainers to adopt funding YAML files for automation. Andrew touches on efficient outreach, payout management, and API usage (GraphQL). [00:25:36] Ben elaborates on how companies can fund ecosyste.ms (like Django) instead of curating their own lists and being inspired by Sentry’s work with the Open Source Pledge. [00:29:32] Andrew speaks about scaling and developer engagement and emphasizes their focus is on high-impact sustainability. [00:32:48] Richard asks, “Why does it matter?” Ben explains that most current funding goes to popular, not most used projects and ecosyste.ms aims to fix the gap with data backed funding, and he suggests use of open standards like 360Giving and Open Contracting Data. [00:35:46] Andrew shares his thoughts on funding the right projects by improving 1% of OSS, you uplift the quality of millions of dependent projects with healthier infrastructure, faster security updates, and more resilient software. [00:38:35] Find out where you can follow ecosyste.ms and the blog on the web. Quotes [00:11:18] “I call them interesting forks. If a fork is referenced by a package, it’ll get indexed.” [00:22:07] We’ve built a service that now moves like $25 million a year between OSS maintainers on OSC.” [00:33:23] “We don’t have enough information to make collective decisions about which projects, communities, maintainers, should receive more funding.” [00:34:23] “The NSF POSE Program has distributed hundreds of millions of dollars of funding to open source communities alone.” [00:35:47] “If you have ten, twenty thousand really critical open source projects, that actually isn’t unachievable to make those projects sustainable.” Spotlight [00:39:35] Ben’s spotlight is Jellyfin. [00:40:20] Andrew’s spotlight is zizmor. [00:42:21] Richard’s spotlight is The LaTeX Project. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) SustainOSS Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/sustainoss.bsky.social) SustainOSS LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Ben Nickolls LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjamuk/) Andrew Nesbitt Website (https://nesbitt.io/) Andrew Nesbitt Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/@andrewnez) Octobox (https://github.com/octobox) ecosyste.ms (https://ecosyste.ms/) ecosyste.ms Blog (https://blog.ecosyste.ms/) Open Source Collective (https://oscollective.org/) Open Source Collective Updates (https://opencollective.com/opensource/updates) Open Source Collective Contributions (https://opencollective.com/opensource) Open Source Collective Contributors (https://opencollective.com/open-source) Open Collective (https://opencollective.com/) 24 Pull Requests (https://24pullrequests.com/) Libraries.io (https://libraries.io/) The penumbra of open source (EPJ Data Science) (https://epjdatascience.springeropen.com/articles/10.1140/epjds/s13688-022-00345-7) FOSDEM ’25- Open source funding: you’re doing it wrong (Andrew and Ben) (https://fosdem.org/2025/schedule/event/fosdem-2025-5576-open-source-funding-you-re-doing-it-wrong/) Vue.js (https://vuejs.org/) thanks.dev (https://thanks.dev/home) StackAid (https://www.stackaid.us/) Back Your Stack (https://backyourstack.com/) NSF POSE (https://www.nsf.gov/funding/initiatives/pathways-enable-open-source-ecosystems) Django (https://www.djangoproject.com/) GitHub Sponsors (https://github.com/sponsors) Sustain Podcast-Episode 80: Emma Irwin and the Foss Fund Program (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/80) Sustain Podcast- 3 Episodes featuring Chad Whitacre (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/chad-whitacre) Sustain Podcast- Episode 218: Karthik Ram & James Howison on Research Software Visibility Infrastructure Priorities (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/218) Sustain Podcast-Episode 247: Chad Whitacre on the Open Source Pledge (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/247) Invest in Open Infrastructure (https://investinopen.org/) 360Giving (https://www.360giving.org/) Open Contracting Data Standard (https://standard.open-contracting.org/latest/en/) Jellyfin (https://opencollective.com/jellyfin) zizmor (https://github.com/zizmorcore/zizmor) The LaTeX Project (https://www.latex-project.org/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Andrew Nesbitt and Benjamin Nickolls.

Guests Marianne Bellotti | Greg Wilson Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer talks with Marianne Bellotti, author of *Kill It with Fire, *and Greg Wilson, co-founder of the Carpentries, about what happens to your code when you leave your job and how to make sure it survives. They discuss their new paper, "10 quick tips for making your software outlive your job (https://arxiv.org/abs/2505.06484)," and share practical strategies for protecting, documenting, and sustaining code in open source, research, and civil service environments. Whether you're preparing for a job change or want to future-proof your work, this conversation offers real-world advice for developers and researchers alike. Hit the download button now! [00:03:04] Greg and Marianne talk about challenges in code sustainability. [00:05:46] Greg speaks about how scientists often prototype rather than build production quality code. [00:09:48] We start with Step 1 in the paper: “Consider your threat mode.” Greg explains the different plans needed for individual vs. systematic departures, Marianne speaks about the importance of understanding code lifecycle-some code has a “fruit fly” lifespan others a “tortoise” one, and Richard adds to think about reframe threat modeling around future usefulness. [00:15:53] There’s a discussion on Step 2: “Get sign-off on releasing it publicly.” [00:21:30] Greg discusses Step 3: “Choose an open license” and emphasizes to stick to well-known licenses (MIT, BSD), don’t write your own, and he shares a funny story. [00:25:29] Richard talks about Step 4: “Put your code somewhere safe” and shares to upload code to GitHub, Codeberg, OSF, Zenodo, etc. Greg suggest peer-to-peer methods like torrents could help long-term preservation and Marianne emphasizes the importance of verified identities when sharing. [00:29:21] Marianne introduces Step 5: “Document your code.” Greg shares that most documentation goes unread and LLMs could help mine useful documentation from conversation records and Marianne emphasizes to focus on “how to run it” first and tests are a part of your documentation. [00:35:17] Step 6: “Make your code reproducible.” Greg and Marianne discuss using tools like Docker, uv for Python lockfiles, etc., for dependency management. [00:36:23] Step 7: “Make your code citable” and Step 8: “Encourage community adoption.” Richard mentions to add a CITATION.cff file so others can cite your code and Greg mentions a great book he read that changed the way he viewed this called, Marketing for Scientists, by Marc Kuchner. [00:38:49] Step 9: “Write a succession or sunsetting plan.” Marianne shares to define success and failure criteria for projects explicitly. [00:40:36] Step 10: “Talk about what you’re doing.” Greg emphasizes to celebrate and grieve project endings properly and Richard encourages listeners to check out the paper, read it, and if you see something missing you can contribute back. [00:43:12] Fnal thoughts from Greg and Marianne: Organize collectively to protect science and code sustainability and find your team. Quotes [00:12:10] “Weapons begin as toys.” [00:14:09] “All code is throwaway code.” [00:27:34] “Sooner or later every library burns.” [00:29:44] “Most documentation is never read by anybody because it’s not answering the questions that you actually have.” [00:41:05] “Take some time to celebrate and to grieve.” Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) SustainOSS Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/sustainoss.bsky.social) SustainOSS LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Marianne Bellotti (Medium) (https://bellmar.medium.com/) Marianne Bellotti LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/bellmar/) Greg Wilson GitHub (https://www.linkedin.com/in/greg-wilson-a26510b6/?originalSubdomain=ca) Greg Wilson LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/greg-wilson-a26510b6/?originalSubdomain=ca) “10 Quick tips for making your code last beyond your current job” (draft) (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jk0R8VL8lq1-LIbW9D5qwCkvxfXEobP0-RqSYF-4Io4/edit#heading=h.2ijt9lezevm3) Kill It With Fire by Marianne Bellotti (https://nostarch.com/kill-it-fire) Marketing for Scientists: How to Shine in Tough Times by Marc J. Kuchner (https://www.amazon.com/Marketing-Scientists-Shine-Tough-Times/dp/1597269948) Codeberg (https://codeberg.org/) Zenodo (https://zenodo.org/) OSF (https://osf.io/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Greg Wilson and Marianne Bellotti.

Guest Dirkjan Ochtman Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this special Maintainer Month episode of Sustain, host Richard speaks with Dirkjan Ochtman, a long-time open source contributor and Rust advocate. They dive deep into what it's like maintaining critical infrastructure libraries, the motivations behind taking over "abandonware," and how funding ecosystems like GitHub Sponsors and thanks.dev help sustain low-level dependencies. Dirkjan also reflects on how Rust’s design lends itself well to long-term maintainability and shares thoughts on the challenges of burnout, context switching, and ensuring project continuity. Hit the download button now! [00:01:33] Dirkjan explains how he chooses which projects he’s maintaining, being passionate about memory safety via Rust, and maintaining tools like Rustls, Hickory DNS, and Quinn. [00:03:14] Dirkjan describes his motivation for maintaining abandonware and sees it as providing value to the community. [00:04:23] ISRG funds Dirkjan’s work on memory-safe DNS and TLS libraires, and they are replacing C-based libraires with Rust equivalents. [00:05:33] Dirkjan uses thanks.dev to help fund maintainers through the full dependency graph and revenue is limited but promising. [00:08:06] Richard brings up Tidelift and Dirkjan mentions it’s not yielding results for Rust projects yet because the Rust ecosystem is smaller. [00:09:30] We hear Dirkjan’s journey into Rust, starting in Python but frustrated by lack of type safety and performance, and creating his own compiler before appreciating Rust’s complexity. [00:12:20] Dirkjan talks about his transition from Python to Rust. [00:13:39] Dirkjan uses PyO3 to create Python bindings for Rust libraries. [00:15:31] Richard wonders why projects become unmaintained and Dirkjan responds that people have life events, job changes, or shifting interests. [00:17:11] How are unmaintained projects flagged? Dirkjan uses the RustSec Advisory DB to detect projects with no active maintainers. [00:18:47] Dirkjan avoids burnout as a maintainer by keeping the scope narrow, only responds to PRs, doesn’t overcommit, and focuses on high-efficiency, low-effort maintenance. [00:19:51] Rust has a strong system, built-in unit tests, great CI support, and Dirkjan encourages atomic commits to simplify code review. [00:21:28] Dirkjan speaks about languages that are more maintainer safe. [00:22:18] Richard brings up attack vectors and the ‘left-pad incident.’ Dirkjan shares how he builds trust via his public GitHub record. [00:24:17] We hear Dirkjan’s offboarding and succession planning as he explains handing off projects like Askama and promoting multiple maintainers to reduce bus factor. [00:26:08] Dirkjan’s long-term vision for OSS sustainability is he hopes to move higher in the stack and wants to make high-quality software easier to build. [00:27:38] Dirkjan explains why he prefers to do asynchronous collaboration over pair programming. [00:28:52] Dirkjan discusses Rust’s long-term ecosystem stability. [00:31:09] Find out where you can follow Dirkjan on the web. Quotes [00:03:23] “You call it abandonware and I call it a dependency that has a million users.” [00:19:02] “[When I take on a project], I don’t take on the burden of proactively improving the project.” [00:19:11] “I will be there when someone submits a PR." [00:20:37] “I ask folks to make small changes: atomic commits.” Spotlight [00:31:37] Richard’s spotlight is Allan Day. [00:32:20] Dirkjan’s spotlight is Xilem. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) SustainOSS Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/sustainoss.bsky.social) SustainOSS LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Dirkjan Ochtman LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dochtman/?originalSubdomain=nl) Dirkjan Ochtman Blog (https://dirkjan.ochtman.nl/) Dirkjan Ochtman Mastodon (https://hachyderm.io/@djc) Dirkjan Ochtman GitHub (https://github.com/djc) Dirkjan Ochtman Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/djc.ochtman.nl) Rust (https://www.rust-lang.org/) Rustls (https://github.com/rustls/rustls) Hickory DNS (https://github.com/hickory-dns/hickory-dns) Quinn (https://github.com/quinn-rs/quinn) Internet Security Research Group (ISRG) (https://www.abetterinternet.org/) Let’s Encrypt (https://letsencrypt.org/) Automatic Certificate Management Environment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Certificate_Management_Environment) PyO3 user guide (https://pyo3.rs/v0.15.1/) Sustain Podcast-Episode 108: Sarah Gran and Josh Aas: Sustainable Digital Infrastructure with Memory Safe Code (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/108) Sustain Podcast-Episode 148: Ali Nehzat of thanks.dev and OSS Funding (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/148) Tidelift (https://tidelift.com/) RustSec Advisory Database-GitHub (https://github.com/RustSec/advisory-db) Askama (https://docs.rs/askama/latest/askama/) Allan Day’s GNOME Blog (https://blogs.gnome.org/aday/) Xilem (https://xilem.dev/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Dirkjan Ochtman.

Guest Michelle Barker Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer welcomes Michelle Barker, Director of the Research Software Alliance (ReSA), for an in-depth conversation about the critical yet often overlooked role of research software in open science. Michelle shares her journey from sociologist to open science advocate, unpacking how ReSA fosters global collaboration to support software developed for research. Together, they explore what it means to build “social infrastructure” in the open source ecosystem, the challenges of aligning international stakeholders, and how ReSA is shaping the future of research through strategy, connection, and community-driven solutions. Press the download button now to hear more! [00:01:58] Michelle explains how she got involved in open science and open source software. [00:04:35] Why Research Software? Michelle shares that ReSA was founded to coordinate globally on research software, which lacked unified international representation unlike open data. [00:07:21] We hear about ReSA’s engagement strategy and the three main strategies: knowledge sharing, stakeholder collaboration, and governance evolution. [00:09:37] ReSA includes RSEs as one of many stakeholders and works broadly across funders, policymakers, infrastructure providers, and more. [00:10:26] Research software is defined as software developed within a research context to solve a research problem and most is open source but not all. [00:13:12] Richard asks about tracking engagement, and Michelle shares it’s hard to quantify outcomes, but standard metrics include newsletter subs, citations, and forum attendance. [00:15:08] Michelle explains the role of social infrastructure. [00:17:37] What’s hard about being a social infrastructure? Michelle talks about the challenge of how to motivate groups of people to work together. [00:19:52] Michelle shares her personal approach to networking: research, targeting key individuals, emotional engagement, and strategic planning for conferences. [00:24:35] A new strategy plan is rolling out and Michelle shares what’s different. [00:27:32] ReSA is working to establish research software as its own recognized field. [00:29:57] Michelle recognizes shared challenges of both open source and research sectors. The keys to success are spotlight wins and demonstrate value through supported infrastructure and recognized contributions. [00:30:40] Find out where you can find out more about ReSA. Spotlight [00:31:11] Richard’s spotlight is the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). [00:31:48] Michelle’s spotlight is Softcite. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) SustainOSS Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/sustainoss.bsky.social) SustainOSS LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Michelle Barker LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelledbarker/) Research Software Alliance (ReSA) (https://www.researchsoft.org/) ReSA LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/research-software-alliance/) ReSA Mastodon (https://fosstodon.org/@researchsoft) ReSA Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/researchsoftware.bsky.social) Sustain Podcast-Episode 264: Neil Chue Hong on the Software Sustainability Institute (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/264) USRSE’25: Philadelphia, PA Oct 6-8, 2025 (https://us-rse.org/) US-RSE (https://us-rse.org/) NOAA (https://www.noaa.gov/) Softcite (https://github.com/softcite/softcite_dataset_v2) Strategic Report Overview (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XAioZINde902hlujD9hIaiIK5Eagx7w5XP9f8Q7P0KU/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.lbr59vck876) Full Strategic Report (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-nyor44kBo5v6lb92ajjzJmYFJ-TXLcafyUz9luQMVk/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.iiwcx8uz2jje) Defining Research Software: a controversial discussion (https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.5504016) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Michelle Barker.

Guests Eriol Fox | Allen “Gunner” Gunn | Leslie Hawthorn | Abby Cabunoc Mayes Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this special episode of Sustain, Richard has a discussion with guests and fellow hosts Eriol Fox, Abby Cabunoc Mayes, Leslie Hawthorne, and Gunner, about the recent virtual Sustain event discussing the current state and future of sustaining open source software. The conversation covers a broad range of topics, from the impact of AI on open source and the complexity of corporate funding, to the importance of succession planning and the need for a continued focus on equity and inclusion. The group also express gratitude to the community and highlight the necessity of creating safe spaces for deep and meaningful discussions about the human aspects of open source. Future events and potential topics are also teased. Hit the download button now! [00:01:45] Gunner shares an event summary starting on the evolution of SustainOSS, and talks about the topics ranging from usage metrics, donor programs, geopolitical barriers in FOSS, and details the working sessions. [00:03:34] Everyone shares their personal takeaway from the event. [00:09:57] We hear about the conversations that were missed at the event and what everyone would like to talk about in the future about sustaining open source. [00:17:56] Gunner briefs us on the next event with a possibility of another forum focused entirely on AI, and Richard proposes exploring digital sovereignty and how it intersects with open source principles. [00:19:39] We end with final thoughts from everyone: Gunner expresses gratitude for the community, Abby is grateful for the space and conversations, Leslie gives a shoutout to UN Open Source Week for fostering global cooperation, Eriol praises Jonah Duckles for putting out “Ten Simple Rules for Academic Open Source Collaborations with Industry,” and Richard encourages listeners to keep contributing and engaging with the Sustain community. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) SustainOSS Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/sustainoss.bsky.social) SustainOSS LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Eriol Fox Website (https://erioldoesdesign.github.io/) Allen “Gunner” Gunn LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/allen-gunn-acab/) Leslie Hawthorn LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesliehawthorn/) Abby Cabunoc Mayes Website (https://abbycabs.github.io/) Monki Gras 2025 (https://monkigras.com/) UN Open Source Week 2025 (https://opencommons.org/UN_Open_Source_Week_2025) Ten Simple Rules for Academic Open Source Collaborations with Industry by Jonah Duckles, Dan Sholler, Beth Duckles (https://orgmycology.com/10-simple-rules-for-academic-industry-collab/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/)

Guest Sean Goggins Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer chats with guest Sean Goggins, a tenured full Professor of Computer Science at the University of Missouri. Sean discusses his extensive involvement in the open source community, particularly through his work with the CHAOSS Project, a Linux Foundation initiative focused on understanding and improving open-source project sustainability. Their conversation covers Sean's academic background, his role in CHAOSS, the importance of distributed leadership, and how metrics can impact the sustainability of open source projects. Sean also shares insights into his teaching methods, the challenges of maintaining open source software, and the future direction of his work on CHAOSS and Augur. Hit the download button now! [00:01:25] Sean shares that he’s a professor specializing in software engineering, algorithms, data science, and visualization, and he discusses his tenure status and passion for research and open source work. [00:02:41] Sean explains how open source leadership is distributed rather than centralized. [00:04:45] We hear how the CHAOSS Project emerged from studying open source governance and leadership. Sean and Matt Germonprez started working on open source collaboration data and a metrics-focused discussion at a Linux Foundation Summit that led to the founding of the CHAOSS Project in 2017. [00:08:23] Richard asks Sean how he balances research, teaching, and open source. Sean discusses how he splits time between research (40%), teaching (40%), and service (20%), with CHAOSS being a major part of his research efforts. [00:13:27] Sean explains that the Augur Project was born out of a need for structured open source data tracking. [00:15:18] Richard asks Sean if he teaches his students about open source, and he explains that he uses CHAOSS and Auger to teach students about GitHub collaboration, pull requests, and open source workflows. [00:19:25] Sean shares his insights on research and open source. He emphasizes his involvement in maintaining software and aiding organizations in making sense of CHAOSS metrics through Augur, which has given him a deep understanding of open source development. [00:20:44] Sean explains why he thinks metrics help make projects more sustainable and how the CHAOSS community has benefitted from fostering a welcoming environment for both technical and non-technical contributors. [00:25:23] We hear some challenges within CHAOSS where it’s been difficult to build a strong developer community around CHAOSS software tools and maintaining open source software requires significant effort. [00:28:11] He goes further to explain how to be a better project and that there’s potential for improving project sustainability through structured mentoring and governance. [00:35:07] Sean shares CHAOSS Project’s future and research goals. Quotes [00:03:46] “Distributed leadership: this exists in most of open source. There’s not often a single individual who drives an entire project.” [00:09:18] “You have 40% of your time for teaching, 40% of your time for research, and 20% of your time for service.” [00:12:15] “There’s a challenge of being a university professor. The advantage is you can do what you want, the challenge is that you have to set your own boundaries.” [00:23:12] “A leading indicator for community health is how many newcomers you have coming in over time.” [00:28:14] “How can I have a better project? It’s the same as going to a family reunion and saying, ‘How can we be a better family’?” Spotlight [00:37:25] Richard’s spotlight is BibtexParser. [00:38:21] Sean’s spotlight is Stuart Geiger. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Sean Goggins Website (https://www.seangoggins.net/) Sean Goggins X (https://x.com/sociallycompute) Nora McDonald Website (https://www.noramcdonald.net/) Nora McDonald-Commonwealth Cyber Initiative (https://cyberinitiative.org/research/researcher-directory/mcdonald-nora.html) Sustain Podcast- 3 episodes featuring guest Georg Link (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/georg-link) Sustain Podcast- 2 episodes featuring guest Dawn Foster (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/foster) Matt Germonprez-Univ. of Nebraska Omaha (https://www.unomaha.edu/college-of-information-science-and-technology/about/faculty-staff/matt-germonprez.php) The Linux Kernel Maintainer Summit-Tokyo, Japan 2025 (https://events.linuxfoundation.org/linux-kernel-maintainer-summit/) Alfred P. Sloan Foundation (https://sloan.org/) CHAOSS (https://chaoss.community/) CHAOSS-GrimoireLab (https://chaoss.github.io/grimoirelab/) CHAOSS-Augur (https://github.com/chaoss/augur) Kelly Blincoe-University of Auckland (https://profiles.auckland.ac.nz/k-blincoe) James Howison (https://james.howison.name/) Sustain Podcast- episode 218 featuring guest James Howison (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/james-howison) Sustain Podcast-episode 243 featuring guest Elizabeth Barron (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/elizabeth-barron) Sustain Podcast-episode 65 featuring guest Brian Proffitt (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/briant-proffitt) Sustain Podcast-2 episodes featuring guest Duane O’Brien (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/duane-obrien) Sustain Podcast-episode 200 featuring guest Stuart Geiger (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/geiger) Digital Infrastructure Podcast- 2 episodes featuring guest Rayya El Zein (https://dif.fireside.fm/guests/rayya-el-zein) BibtexParser (https://bibtexparser.readthedocs.io/en/main/) Stuart Geiger (https://css.ucsd.edu/people/profiles/sgeiger.html) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Sean Goggins.

Guest Neil Chue Hong Panelists Richard Littauer | Justin Dorfman Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, hosts Richard Littauer and Justin Dorfman talk with Neil Chue Hong, Director of the Software Sustainability Institute (SSI). They discuss the SSI's mission to sustain software used in research, the institute's history and funding, the role of research software engineers, and the newly launched Research Software Maintenance Fund (RSMF) with £4.8 million dedicated to supporting research software. Neil shares insights into the collaboration, training initiatives, and policy work done by the SSI to promote sustainability in software development. The episode also touches on the impact of large funding initiatives like those from the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative and the evolving role of software development in the age of large language models (LLMs). Hit the download button now! [00:01:44] Neil explains SSI’s mission and purpose. [00:02:27] Richard inquires about SSI’s funding model and how long SSI has existed. Neil explains SSI is a government funded collaboration via UK Research and Innovation (UKRI), and it was founded in 2010 and is funded through 2028. [00:05:03] Richard highlights SSI’s impact and Neil discusses how SSI helped establish “Research Software Engineer (RSE)’ as a recognized role. [00:08:20] SSI’s annual Collaborations Workshop (May 13-15 in Stirling, UK) is mentioned, and Neil recalls a pivotal collaboration with Greg Wilson (Software Carpentry), which expanded training programs. [00:11:16] Neil explains that the SSI has evolved from consultancy to training, community initiatives, and policy advocacy to scale its impact and ensure long-term sustainability in research software. [00:13:57] Richard introduces SSI’s new £4.8M Research Software Maintenance Fund (RSMF). Neil explains it supports maintaining existing research software and it’s funded by the UK’s Digital Research Infrastructure Programme (UKRI). [00:16:54] A question comes up about the geopolitical impact of this funding and Neil states the UK is maintaining leadership in research software sustainability, not just focusing on national capability. [00:20:54] Neil defines research software products being targeted by the RSMF as software used beyond its original development team. [00:22:54] Richard asks if £4.8M is a significant investment and Neil explains this is comparable to past UK research software grants.. [00:25:10] Neil acknowledges Chan Zuckerberg Initiative (CZI) for improving funding models for research software. [00:29:45] Justin asks how LLMs are changing research software engineering. Neil compares LLMs’ impact on software development to smartphones revolutionizing photography. [00:34:05] Find out where you can connect with UKRI, SSI, and with Neil on the web. Quotes [00:02:07] “We’ve got this motto: Better Software, Better Research.” [00:29:03] “You can define what is clearly sci-fi, you can define what is clearly research software, but making an arbitrary cut-off point is really hard.” Spotlight [00:35:13] Justin’s spotlight is ghostty. [00:35:40] Richard’s spotlight is Olympus Tough cameras. [00:36:34] Neil’s spotlight is The Carpentries and Cinema For All. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Justin Dorfman X (https://twitter.com/jdorfman?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Neil Chue Hong LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/neilchuehong/) Software Sustainability Institute (SSI) (https://www.software.ac.uk/) Save the date for Collaborations Workshop 2025 (CW25)-SSI (https://www.software.ac.uk/news/save-date-collaborations-workshop-2025-cw25) UKRI awards the Software Sustainability Institute £4.8m to strengthen research software maintenance in the UK (SSI) (https://www.software.ac.uk/news/ukri-awards-software-sustainability-institute-ps48m-strengthen-research-software-maintenance) Digital Research Infrastructure Programme (UKRI) (https://www.ukri.org/what-we-do/creating-world-class-research-and-innovation-infrastructure/digital-research-infrastructure/) Sustain Podcast- Episode 43: Investing in Open Infrastructure with Kaitlin Thaney (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/kaitlin-thaney) Sustain Podcast- Episode 230: Kari L. Jordan on The Carpentries (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/kari-jordan) Sustain Podcast- Episode 235: The State of Open Infrastructure 2024, from IOI with Emmy Tsang (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/emmy-tsang) Open Source in Academia Map (https://sustainoss.org/academic-map/) ghostty (https://ghostty.org/) Olympus Tough camera (https://explore.omsystem.com/us/en/tough) The Carpentries (https://carpentries.org/) Cinema For All (https://cinemaforall.org.uk/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Neil Chue Hong.

Guest Alison Hill Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes We’re kicking off the new year of Sustain with host Richard Littauer discussing sustaining open source software with guest, Alison Hill, VP of Product at Anaconda, and a cognitive scientist with a PhD in psychology. Alison shares her journey from academia to industry, emphasizing the importance of statistics and data science in her career. She explains her role at Anaconda, focusing on developing secure and compatible distribution of Python packages and managing the community repository, Anaconda.org. The conversation covers the significance of product management in open source projects, particularly those with corporate backing, and how these roles can help in balancing user needs and business goals. In addition, Alison shares her thoughts on the challenges and strategies for maintaining open source projects without corporate support and touches on the ‘palmer penguins’ project. Click to download now! [00:01:13] Alison discusses her transition from academic research in cognitive science to industry and data science, emphasizing her passion for statistics and education. [00:02:41] Alison explains her work at Anaconda, focusing on product management and the Anaconda distribution, aiming to ease the use of Python and R packages in the industry and academia. She also elaborates on other projects she oversees, including Anaconda.org and its role in supporting open source projects and enterprise needs. [00:05:17] We hear how Anaconda sustains itself financially through enterprise offerings and the balance of supporting open source while maintaining a business model. [00:07:14] Alison shares her previous experience as the first PM of data science communication at Posit (formerly RStudio) and her role in enhancing data science education and product development. [00:12:49] Richard and Alison explore the challenges of sustaining open source projects without corporate backing and strategies for maintaining personal and project health in the open source community. Alison discusses common mistakes companies make by confusing project management with product management in open source projects. [00:17:18] Richard asks about the skills needed for developers to adopt a product-oriented approach. Alison suggests that successful product-oriented developers often have high empathy for end-users and experience with the pain points at scale, which helps them anticipate and innovate solutions effectively. [00:20:49] Richard expresses concerns about the sustainability of smaller, community-led open source projects that lack corporate backing and the structured support that comes with it. Alison acknowledges her limited experience with non-corporate open source projects but highlights the difficulty in maintaining such projects without institutional support, and she shares her personal challenges with keeping up with open source project demands. [00:27:41] Alison stresses the importance of clear goals and understanding the implications of joining larger ecosystems, reflects on the need for clarity about the desired outcomes when joining larger ecosystems, and shares examples of successful and unsuccessful engagements in such settings. [00:29:52] She discusses alternative sustainability models, including paid support and subscriptions. [00:33:00] Alison brings up the example of Apache Arrow and the challenges it faced with corporate sponsorship. [00:34:23] We wrap up with Richard acknowledging that not all open source projects require significant funding or formal business models, and Alison explains the ‘palmerpenguins’ project she did at the beginning of COVID. [00:37:07] Find out where you can follow Alison on the web. Quotes [00:22:18] “What is the minimum level of support you need to not feel like you’re drowning?” Spotlight [00:38:14] Richard’s spotlight is Bernard Cornwell. [00:38:39] Alison’s spotlight is the book, Impossible Creatures. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Alison Hill, PhD Website (https://www.apreshill.com/) Alison Presmanes Hill, PhD LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/apreshill/) Alison Presmanes Hill GitHub (https://github.com/apreshill) Anaconda (https://www.anaconda.com/) Anaconda.org (https://anaconda.org/) The Third Bit-Dr. Greg Wilson (https://third-bit.com/about/) Sustain Podcast-Episode 64: Travis Oliphant and Russel Pekrul on NumPy, Anaconda, and giving back with FairOSS (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/oliphant) Intercom on Product Management (https://www.intercom.com/resources/books/intercom-product-management) Sustain Podcast-Episode 135: Tracy Hinds on Node.js’s CommComm and PMs in Open Source (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/135) Hadley Wickham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadley_Wickham) palmerpenguins-GitHub (https://allisonhorst.github.io/palmerpenguins/articles/intro.html) Bernard Cornwell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Cornwell) Impossible Creatures by Katherine Rundell (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/743371/impossible-creatures-by-katherine-rundell-illustrated-by-ashley-mackenzie/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Alison Hill.

Guest Brian Muenzenmeyer Panelists Richard Littauer | Abbigail Cabunoc Mayes Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer is joined by co-host Abigail Cabunoc Mayes and guest Brian Muenzenmeyer, a seasoned open source contributor. Brian shares his journey in web development, his experiences with burnout, and insights from his new book, Approachable Open Source. Some key topics discussed include contributing to open source projects, community building, maintaining balance, and funding models for sustainability. This episode emphasizes the role of diverse contributions and the importance of creating accessible avenues for all kinds of contributions in open source. Press download now to hear more! [00:01:40] Brian discusses his book, which offers practical advice for navigating open source. He reflects on his career journey, from early contributions to burnout and recovery. He shares his humble beginnings with jQuery Mobile and the steps that led him to maintain major projects like Pattern Lab. [00:04:21] Brian opens up about his experience with burnout and how it influenced the writing of his book. [00:06:42] Brian emphasizes the importance of designing sustainable open source communities. [00:08:41] Richard, Brian, and Abby explore the concept of “pace layers” in open source, highlighting the dynamic balance between innovation and stability. [00:14:10] Chapter 7 in Brian’s book is discussed where Brian advocates for corporate contributions to open source and shares tips for individuals looking to get involved. [00:20:04] Brian provides practical advice for maintainers, including time management, fostering diverse roles, and creating approachable entry points for contributors. [00:25:01] The conversation delves into the challenges of improving diversity in open source communities and the importance of celebrating successes. [00:28:39] Find out where you can get Brian’s book, Approachable Open Source. Digital copies are available worldwide, and physical copies shipping to the U.S. and Canada. Quotes [00:05:29] “There isn’t a dichotomy between consumption and contribution.” [00:13:48] “The work that we’re doing isn’t really for us. If you’re making open source, it’s not really for you, you’re sharing it with the world.” [00:20:28] “If you look at a mature open source project and try to emulate it at the outset, you’re going to be disappointed and you’re going to feel like you’re always behind.” [00:23:09] “You don’t need permission to do your job.” [00:23:41] “You’re already empowered to fix things that you see are broken.” [00:23:57] “Instead of buying a maintainer a coffee, spend a coffee cup’s amount of time looking at their issue log.” Spotlight [00:30:05] Richard’s spotlight is Stephen Colbert. [00:30:38] Abby’s spotlight is Calibre. [00:30:54] Brian’s spotlight is his good friend, Geoff Pursell (https://github.com/geoffp). Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Abby Cabunoc Mayes X (https://x.com/abbycabs) Brian Muenzenmeyer Website (https://brianmuenzenmeyer.com/) Brian Muenzenmeyer's Bluesky (https://bsky.app/profile/brianmuenzenmeyer.com) Brian Muenzenmeyer LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-muenzenmeyer-91a77554/) Approachable Open Source By Brian Muenzenmeyer (https://approachableopensource.com/) Colin Dean-GitHub (https://github.com/colindean) Pace Layers Thinking: Paul Saffo and Stewart Brand @ The Interval (https://longnow.org/ideas/stewart-brand-pace-layers-thinking-at-the-interval/) Ship Faster By Building Design Systems Slower By Josh Clark (https://bigmedium.com/ideas/design-system-pace-layers-slow-fast.html) Ecosyste.ms (https://ecosyste.ms/) Ecosystem Funds: Curated Support For Your Critical Software Dependencies By Ben Nickolls (https://opencollective.com/opensource/updates/ecosystem-funds-curated-support-for-your-critical-software-dependencies) John Oliver (Not Stephen Colbert)! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Oliver) Calibre (https://calibre-ebook.com/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Brian Muenzenmeyer.

Guest Alexander Petros Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes Join host Richard Littauer as he dives into the world of open source sustainability with Alexander Petros, core maintainer of htmx and freelance software engineer. Today, they explore the evolution of HTML, the power of lightweight web protocols, and the broader implications of open-source software for the future of the web. Alexander shares his insights on building sustainable digital infrastructure, using simple tools effectively, and rethinking web development paradigms. Hit download now! [00:01:40] Alexander explains htmx as a lightweight front-end JavaScript library enhancing HTML capabilities. [00:03:16] There’s a discussion about HTML’s design for behavior and interactivity and a comparison of traditional HTML with modern practices, including JavaScript-heavy frameworks. [00:05:50] We hear the origins of htmx, how it started as a jQuery extension called intercooler.js, and the evolution during the pandemic to a standalone library. [00:09:16] Alexander explains building for the long term, why lightweight, adaptable systems matter, and reflects on the durability of early web standards and tools. [00:12:17] Richard inquires about what Alexander envisions a hundred years from now with htmx. [00:14:57] Balancing simplicity and scalability is discussed about HTML’s capabilities for large-scale applications and why many developers overcomplicate solutions unnecessarily. [00:17:40] Alexander critiques over-reliance on tools like Docker and large-scale build systems and advocates for simpler development environments like SQLite. [00:19:42] Alexander talks about why open source frameworks like React solve organizational problems for tech giants. [00:25:42] Richard tells us he’s been spending time on the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature as a foundational system for species classification and Alexander speaks about the challenges of contributing to protocols governed by large corporations and why HTML remains a uniquely sustainable and universal platform. [00:28:22] Richard asks Alexander if he’s thought about the 1000 year approach to the work he’s doing. [00:32:21] Find out where you can follow Alexander and his blog online. Quotes [00:13:11] “The web is going to be the most effective delivery mechanism for software for the next couple of decades.” [00:14:12] “If we look at the tools that we have available today, which tools can we use that are most likely to get us to that fifty, hundred year useful piece of software?” [00:24:06] “Different structural project models produce very different software.” Spotlight [00:33:11] Richard’s spotlight is the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature. [00:34:07] Alexander’s spotlight is better-sqlite3. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Alexander Petros Website (https://alexanderpetros.com/) Alexander Petros LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/apetros/) Unplanned Obsolescence (Alexander’s Blog) (https://unplannedobsolescence.com/) Building the Hundred-Year Web Service with htmx- Alexander Petros (YouTube) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lASLZ9TgXyc) htmx (https://htmx.org/) Sustain Podcast-Episode 238: Julia Evans and Wizard Zines (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/238) xkcd-927: How Standards Proliferate (https://xkcd.com/927/) Julia Evans Blog (https://jvns.ca/) International Code of Zoological Nomenclature (ICZN) (https://www.iczn.org/) better-sqlite3 (https://github.com/WiseLibs/better-sqlite3) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Alexander Petros.

Guest Robert Douglass Panelist Richard Littauer | Abby Cabunoc Mayes Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, hosts Richard Littauer and Abby Cabunoc Mayes speak with Robert Douglass, Entrepreneur in Residence at Open Strategy Partners, to delve into sustaining open source projects. They explore Robert's extensive history with Drupal, the role of Open Strategy Partners, and the innovative Drupal Certified Partner Program designed to address the maker-taker dilemma in open source. The episode also covers the recently launched RFP templates aimed at promoting open source software and certified partners. Robert shares insights on gamification, the economic aspects of contributing to Drupal, and future initiatives to ensure the continued sustainability of open source projects. Hit download now to hear more! [00:01:49] Robert shares his background in the Drupal ecosystem and his involvement with Open Strategy Partners, which provides strategic content marketing for B2B tech companies focusing on open source. [00:02:43] Robert explains Open Strategy Partners’ focus on supporting open source projects and mentions clients like DDEV and TYPO3. [00:04:06] Richard and Robert discuss what it means to be an entrepreneur in residence, with Robert explaining his role in developing new products for Open Strategy Partners and the books he has written. [00:05:52] Robert reflects on the early days of Drupal and the challenges in making open source sustainable. He notes how the community was initially driven by passion, with few paid opportunities. [00:08:05] Robert introduces the Drupal Certified Partner Program, a system for supporting Drupal sustainability by encouraging companies to contribute both time and money. [00:10:03] The conversation covers how Drupal’s contribution system gamifies the support companies provide to the ecosystem. Companies can earn contribution credits, which are visible on Drupal.org and benefit their reputation. [00:15:41] Abby asks about the potential downsides of gamification, especially regarding diversity. Robert explains how placing the system at the company level may mitigate some negative impacts. [00:18:17] Richard inquires about the financial structure of the Drupal Certified Partner Program. Robert clarifies that the funds collected support the Drupal Association’s core mission, including maintaining Drupal.org and organizing events. [00:21:33] Robert discusses the development of RFP (Request for Proposal) templates to encourage companies to consider certified open source providers, explaining how this initiative promotes sustainability in the ecosystem. [00:25:56] Robert describes how the RFP templates allow purpose-driven organizations to incorporate open source values in their procurement process, aligning with their missions. [00:27:00] Robert invites listeners to explore and utilize the RFP templates, which are available under a Creative Commons Zero license, encouraging others to adapt and improve them. [00:29:47] Find out where you can follow Robert and his work online. Quotes [00:08:57] “Open Source is like a free puppy.” Spotlight [00:30:30] Abby’s spotlight is Common Sort thrift shop in Toronto. [00:30:52] Richard’s spotlight is Wikidata. [00:31:21] Robert’s spotlight is Chad Whitacre and Sentry. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Abby Cabunoc Mayes X (https://x.com/abbycabs?lang=en) Robert Douglass LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/roberttdouglass/) Open Strategy Partners (https://openstrategypartners.com/) Open Strategy Partners Blog (https://openstrategypartners.com/blog/) Building Online Communities with Drupal, phpBB, and WordPress by Robert Douglass, Mike Little, Jared W. Smith (https://www.drupal.org/node/1850002) Drupal Certified Partner Program (https://www.drupal.org/association/become-a-drupal-certified-partner) Drupal (https://www.drupal.org/) How to Write an RFP for Open Source Solutions: Featuring Drupal Certified Partners (https://www.drupal.org/association/blog/how-to-write-an-rfp-for-open-source-solutions-featuring-drupal-certified-partners) OSP: Supporting Drupal Certified Partners (https://openstrategypartners.com/blog/osp-supporting-drupal-certified-partners/) Sustain Podcast-Episode 148: Ali Nehzat of thanks.dev and OSS Funding (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/148) Common Sort (https://commonsort.com/) Wikidata (https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Main_Page) Chad Whitacre LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/chadwhitacre/) Sentry (https://sentry.io/welcome/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Robert Douglass.

Guest Giulio Carvalho Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer talks with Giulio Carvalho, a civic tech practitioner and program manager at Open Knowledge Brasil, about the importance of open data and civic engagement in Brazil. They discuss the role of civic tech projects in promoting transparency, such as Querido Diário (Dear Diary), an open-source project aimed at centralizing municipal data for better access by citizens, journalists, and activists. Giulio shares insights on the challenges and successes of maintaining open-source projects within a developing country, particularly in the face of competition from large tech corporations. Press download now to hear more! [00:01:36] Giulio explains the Civic Innovation Ambassador Network, and the network’s impact on political transparency pledges made by politicians for open data and transparency is highlighted. [00:04:16] There’s a discussion about how the pledge focuses on open data and government transparency, relating it to broader movements of open knowledge, and Giulio mentions the Law of Information Access established in Brazil, emphasizing the legal obligations for government transparency. [00:06:49] Richard compares the efforts to the U.S. Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), prompting a discussion on open data and transparency initiatives in Brazil. Giulio discusses specific projects in Brazil that allow citizens to request information anonymously. [00:10:10] Giulio introduces the Querido Diário project, designed to make official acts published in municipal gazettes accessible to the public. [00:15:22] The funding, development, and challenges of sustaining the Querido Diário projects are discussed, noting the support from various grants and partnerships. [00:21:17] The conversation shifts to the broader impact and goals of Open Knowledge Brazil in promoting open data and supporting civic tech initiatives. [00:23:34] Challenges in building a sustainable project with widespread municipal interest are discussed, along with strategies for managing community contributions and maintaining active development. [00:30:01] Richard and Giulio reflect on building grassroots tech movements in the global south and the challenges posed by proprietary technologies from more developed regions. [00:35:12] Find out where you can find Giulio’s work and where you can get involved with Open Knowledge Brasil. Quotes [00:30:46] “If we build something by us for us, we can actually build great stuff.” Spotlight [00:38:10] Richard’s spotlight is Alexander von Humboldt. [00:38:58] Giulio’s spotlight is pretalx. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Giulio Carvalho LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ogecece/) Querido Diário (https://queridodiario.ok.org.br/en-US/sobre) Open Knowledge Brasil (https://ok.org.br/) Open Knowledge Brasil-GitHub (https://github.com/okfn-brasil) Civic Innovation Ambassadors (https://embaixadoras.ok.org.br/) Paper Past Magazines and Journals (https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/periodicals/) Alexander von Humboldt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_von_Humboldt) pretalx (https://pretalx.com/p/about/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Giulio Carvalho.

Guest Devin Stein Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer talks with Devin Stein, CEO and Founder of Dosu. Today, they discuss the challenges of sustaining open source software, the role of AI and LLMs (Large Language Model) in automating support and maintenance, and the ethical considerations surrounding AI usage. Devin explains Dosu's approach to creating a living knowledge base to assist engineering teams and open source maintainers. Also, the conversation dives into how Dosu interacts with users, maintains quality control, and addresses the environmental impact of AI. Hit download now to hear more! [00:01:43] Devin discusses Dosu’s purpose which helps engineering teams’ software by structuring engineering knowledge into a knowledge base, and the tool supports open source by addressing common questions, triaging issues, and identifying project ownership. [00:02:46] We hear about how Dosu uses LLMs to create a “living knowledge base” that supports open source workflows, such as issue resolution and knowledge sharing. [00:04:48] Devin explains that Dosu is focused on automating support tasks, not generating code directly, and he fills us in the user base and funding. [00:06:17] Devin tells us that revenue comes from platform teams and open core companies using Dosu internally and through a per-seat pricing model. [00:08:03] We learn how Dosu aims to reduce maintainer burnout by handling repetitive inquires, allowing maintainers to focus on unique issues. [00:10:38] There’s a discussion on users’ positive reception to fast responses via Dosu and how Dosu aims to assist, not replace maintainers, providing first-pass answers or guidance. [00:12:00] Richard expresses a “net positive” sentiment but admits to initial scepticism about GitHub Actions and automation in open source. Devin shares a similar story of entering open source for community interaction, initially contributing through GitHub, and receiving positive feedback. [00:14:49] Richard inquires about managing customer expectations for accuracy and Devin acknowledges the challenge and explains that Dosu is designed to adapt by learning from past issues and solutions, and how human-in-the-loop workflows help maintainers refine Dosu’s responses. [00:18:19] A question on ethical and legal use of LLMs is brought up, as Devin hopes for more transparency and alignment on LLM licensing and legal frameworks in the future. [00:21:14] Devin explains that Dosu’s knowledge base will soon be accessible, providing transparency for users and maintainers about its data sources. [00:24:49] Richard questions about how AI companies are ensuring their models don’t reinforce these biases and asks about measures in place to improve AI responses. Devin emphasizes their approach to LLMs, which focuses on treating the AI as a tool rather than imitating human behavior. [00:26:55] The topic of addressing human elements and consistency is brought up and Devin explains that Dosu’s design keeps responses consistent and supportive, and maintainers and users can provide feedback and adjust responses to align with community needs. [00:31:23] Devin talks about Dosu’s strategy focusing on helping become contributors without taking over human roles in open source, and maintainers still have the primary role in guiding substantial project changes or complex contributions. [00:33:34] Devin acknowledges the environmental concerns around AI usage and hopes for more sustainable practices and optimizations in the future. [00:34:30] Find out where you can follow Devin and Dosu online. Spotlight [00:34:59] Richard’s spotlight is Avatar: The Last Airbender. [00:35:25] Devin’s spotlight is sqlc. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Devin Stein LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/devstein/) Devin Stein X (https://x.com/devstein64) Devin Stein GitHub (https://github.com/devstein) Dosu (https://dosu.dev/) SOPS (https://github.com/getsops/sops) Sustain Podcast-Episode 61: Melissa Logan on Marketing Open Source Effectively and Sustainably (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/melissa) Maintainer.io (https://maintainer.io/) OSS Maintenance as a Service: Helping maintainers maintain their code by Richard Littauer (https://medium.com/@richlitt/oss-maintenance-as-a-service-helping-maintainers-maintain-their-code-f9717e4990ad) Open source contributor agent architecture repo-Oscar (https://go.googlesource.com/oscar) Avatar: The Last Airbender (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar:_The_Last_Airbender) sqlc: A SQL Compiler (https://github.com/sqlc-dev/sqlc) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Devin Stein.

Guest Kailash Nadh Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer sits down with Kailash Nath, CTO of Zerodha, to delve into the dynamics of funding and sustaining open-source projects. They explore the establishment of Zerodha's FLOSS/Fund, which allocates a million dollars annually to support pivotal open source projects and discuss the development of the funding.json format to streamline grant applications. The conversation also covers the challenges of creating such funds, including regulatory hurdles, and aims to make financial assistance globally accessible. From detailing efforts to revive India's open-source communities through the FOSS United Foundation to highlighting the obstacles and innovative models in funding open-source software, the episode provides a comprehensive look at both global and Indian perspectives. Hit download now! [00:01:14] Richard brings up the FLOSS/Fund, a $1 million annual commitment to open source projects. Kailash confirms that the fund is still active and explains how it recently became more structured and a small team has been formed to manage the logistics of the fund. [00:02:48] The FLOSS/Fund has been created to publicly commit to supporting open source in a structured way. Kailash points out that while other companies give donations to open source, there are few structured initiatives from large organizations. [00:04:33] Kailash expresses frustration that few billion-dollar companies have set up similar initiatives to support open source projects. [00:06:24] Kailash explains that the FLOSS/Fund is open to the global open source community and target systemically important projects like libraries and widely used software tools. [00:08:14] Richard inquires about the application process and Kailash explains instead of traditional grant forms, projects must create and publish a “funding.json” file. [00:10:35] Kailash shares that the structured application method is designed to avoid the usual awkwardness of fundraising conversations and streamline the process. [00:13:31] The two discuss the difficulty maintainers face when articulating the importance of their projects, particularly for maintainers who may not have strong written communication skills, Kailash emphasizes that the funding.json method does not replace narrative descriptions but simplifies signaling. [00:16:17] The conversation switches to global scope and prioritization as Kailash tells us Zerodha’s open source contributions are not limited to projects they directly use, the fund is open to all global projects, and Zerodha hopes to support projects that are crucial for open source infrastructure. [00:17:09] Kailash discusses the complexity of sending money internationally from India. [00:18:59] We learn the goal is not to make funding.json go viral through financial incentives, but to organically grow adoption if the tool proves valuable. [00:20:49] Richard and Kailash explore the broader challenges of sustaining open source projects beyond funding, such as building healthy communities and incentivizing the proper use and citation of open source infrastructure. [00:25:32] Kailash discusses the Indian open source ecosystem. [00:30:29] Kailash explains how Zerodha’s initiatives aim to push the Indian industry to give back more to the open source community. He hopes that their efforts will inspire other companies to set up similar initiatives. [00:32:12] Find out where you can donate to Floss fund and follow Kailash online. Spotlight [00:32:56] Richard’s spotlight is his first grade teacher, Mrs. Barril. [00:33:25] Kailash’s spotlight is Jim Martsolf who introduced him to “webmastering.” Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Kailash Nadh LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/kailashnadh/) Kailash Nadh Website (https://nadh.in/) Zerodha (https://zerodha.com/) funding.json (https://floss.fund/funding-manifest/) Sustain Podcast-Episode 153: Kailash Nadh and the FOSS United Foundation (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/153) FLOSS/Fund (https://floss.fund/) FFmpeg (https://ffmpeg.org/) Zig (https://ziglang.org/) Sustain Podcast-Episode 247: Chad Whitacre on the Open Source Pledge (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/247) Open Source Pledge (https://opensourcepledge.com/) Announcing FLOSS/fund: $1M per year for free and open source projects-post by Kailash Nadh (https://floss.fund/blog/announcing-floss-fund/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Kailash Nadh.

Guest Thomas Karagianes | Jonathan Romano Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode, host Richard Littauer discusses the journey and impact of Eterna with developers Jonathan Romano and Thomas Karagianes. The conversation revolves around Eterna's role in RNA research through user-contributed puzzle solutions, emphasizing community engagement and educational outreach. Topics include the integration of hybrid intelligence, where human intuition complements AI in scientific discovery, and the significance of explainable AI in motivating player participation. The episode also touches on the ethical considerations in collaborating with for-profit entities, the development of accessible COVID vaccines, and low-cost tuberculosis diagnostics. Hit download now to hear more! [00:01:24] Jonathan describes Eterna, a platform where players solve puzzles to contribute to RNA research. [00:02:12] Thomas explains that Eterna focuses on RNA complexity and its importance in modern science, like mRNA vaccines and how Eterna engages players in folding RNA sequences and testing them in labs. [00:04:36] Richard asks if the project is open source and Jonathan says its partially open source and explains the technical limitations that prevent full openness. [00:05:26] We learn about Eterna’s community with around 100,000 total players, and a core group of about 30-40 who regularly engage in scientific challenges. [00:07:31] Thomas discusses ongoing efforts to make the game more accessible and increase community engagement through educational outreach and simplifying the tutorial system, and Eterna is used in classrooms as a teaching tool. [00:09:47] Jonathan explains how some Eterna players become code contributors, staff members, and even lead authors on academic papers. [00:13:32] We hear about the funding of the community. [00:15:56] Thomas discusses how Eterna integrates AI to assist players but stresses the importance of human intuition in tackling unique challenges and Jonathan explains how Eterna uses hybrid intelligence, combining AI and human input for better research outcomes. He highlights how Eterna’s community has contributed to important research, including COVID-19 vaccine development and tuberculosis diagnostics. [00:22:29] Thomas shares that Eterna attracts players who enjoy breaking the model or exploring boundaries, making the game engaging and motivating for them. [00:27:48] Jonathan and Thomas discuss the ethical considerations of partnerships, especially with for-profit companies, and the need to engage the community in decision-making processes. [00:31:41] Jonathan shares how you can contribute to Eterna and how to join the developer community on GitHub. Quotes [00:10:10] “Minimally, whenever there is a scientific publication that comes out of Eterna from players contributions, there is a consortium author on the paper. That will include everyone who has submitted a solution.” [00:14:21] “There’s definitely this pattern - and you can even see it in the code- where open source code passes from grad student to grad student.” [00:19:14] “Hybrid intelligence is an underused buzzword.” Spotlight [00:33:16] Richard’s spotlight is The Internet Archive. [00:34:23] Jonathan’s spotlight is txircd, a modular IRC daemon written in Python. [00:35:32] Thomas’s spotlight is Bioconda. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) SustainOSS LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/?trk=public_profile_volunteering-position_profile-section-card_full-click&originalSubdomain=in) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Thomas Karagianes LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomaskaragianes/) Jonathan Romano Website (https://luxaritas.com/) Jonathan Romano LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/luxaritas/) Eterna (https://eternagame.org/) Eterna Project Information (https://eternagame.org/about) Eterna OpenVaccine (https://eternagame.org/challenges/10845741) Eterna OpenTB (https://eternagame.org/challenges/10845742) Eterna OpenKnot (https://eternagame.org/challenges/11843006) Eternagame-GitHub (https://github.com/eternagame) Foldit (https://fold.it/) RNA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA) Hybrid Intelligence (Springer Link article) (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12599-019-00595-2) Mapping Citizen Science through the Lens of Human-Centered AI (Human Computation article) (https://hcjournal.org/index.php/jhc/article/view/133) Practical recommendations from a multi-perspective needs and challenges assessment of citizen science games (PLOS ONE article) (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0285367) Mountains Beyond Mountains by Tracy Kidder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountains_Beyond_Mountains) Internet Archive (https://archive.org/) txircd (https://github.com/elementalalchemist/txircd) Bioconda (https://bioconda.github.io/) Reamde by Neal Stephenson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reamde) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Jonathan Romano and Thomas Karagianes.