Sustain

Guest Thomas Karagianes | Jonathan Romano Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode, host Richard Littauer discusses the journey and impact of Eterna with developers Jonathan Romano and Thomas Karagianes. The conversation revolves around Eterna's role in RNA research through user-contributed puzzle solutions, emphasizing community engagement and educational outreach. Topics include the integration of hybrid intelligence, where human intuition complements AI in scientific discovery, and the significance of explainable AI in motivating player participation. The episode also touches on the ethical considerations in collaborating with for-profit entities, the development of accessible COVID vaccines, and low-cost tuberculosis diagnostics. Hit download now to hear more! [00:01:24] Jonathan describes Eterna, a platform where players solve puzzles to contribute to RNA research. [00:02:12] Thomas explains that Eterna focuses on RNA complexity and its importance in modern science, like mRNA vaccines and how Eterna engages players in folding RNA sequences and testing them in labs. [00:04:36] Richard asks if the project is open source and Jonathan says its partially open source and explains the technical limitations that prevent full openness. [00:05:26] We learn about Eterna’s community with around 100,000 total players, and a core group of about 30-40 who regularly engage in scientific challenges. [00:07:31] Thomas discusses ongoing efforts to make the game more accessible and increase community engagement through educational outreach and simplifying the tutorial system, and Eterna is used in classrooms as a teaching tool. [00:09:47] Jonathan explains how some Eterna players become code contributors, staff members, and even lead authors on academic papers. [00:13:32] We hear about the funding of the community. [00:15:56] Thomas discusses how Eterna integrates AI to assist players but stresses the importance of human intuition in tackling unique challenges and Jonathan explains how Eterna uses hybrid intelligence, combining AI and human input for better research outcomes. He highlights how Eterna’s community has contributed to important research, including COVID-19 vaccine development and tuberculosis diagnostics. [00:22:29] Thomas shares that Eterna attracts players who enjoy breaking the model or exploring boundaries, making the game engaging and motivating for them. [00:27:48] Jonathan and Thomas discuss the ethical considerations of partnerships, especially with for-profit companies, and the need to engage the community in decision-making processes. [00:31:41] Jonathan shares how you can contribute to Eterna and how to join the developer community on GitHub. Quotes [00:10:10] “Minimally, whenever there is a scientific publication that comes out of Eterna from players contributions, there is a consortium author on the paper. That will include everyone who has submitted a solution.” [00:14:21] “There’s definitely this pattern - and you can even see it in the code- where open source code passes from grad student to grad student.” [00:19:14] “Hybrid intelligence is an underused buzzword.” Spotlight [00:33:16] Richard’s spotlight is The Internet Archive. [00:34:23] Jonathan’s spotlight is txircd, a modular IRC daemon written in Python. [00:35:32] Thomas’s spotlight is Bioconda. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) SustainOSS LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/?trk=public_profile_volunteering-position_profile-section-card_full-click&originalSubdomain=in) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Thomas Karagianes LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomaskaragianes/) Jonathan Romano Website (https://luxaritas.com/) Jonathan Romano LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/luxaritas/) Eterna (https://eternagame.org/) Eterna Project Information (https://eternagame.org/about) Eterna OpenVaccine (https://eternagame.org/challenges/10845741) Eterna OpenTB (https://eternagame.org/challenges/10845742) Eterna OpenKnot (https://eternagame.org/challenges/11843006) Eternagame-GitHub (https://github.com/eternagame) Foldit (https://fold.it/) RNA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA) Hybrid Intelligence (Springer Link article) (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12599-019-00595-2) Mapping Citizen Science through the Lens of Human-Centered AI (Human Computation article) (https://hcjournal.org/index.php/jhc/article/view/133) Practical recommendations from a multi-perspective needs and challenges assessment of citizen science games (PLOS ONE article) (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0285367) Mountains Beyond Mountains by Tracy Kidder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountains_Beyond_Mountains) Internet Archive (https://archive.org/) txircd (https://github.com/elementalalchemist/txircd) Bioconda (https://bioconda.github.io/) Reamde by Neal Stephenson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reamde) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Jonathan Romano and Thomas Karagianes.

Guests Caleb Connolly | Pablo Correa Gómez Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer is joined by guests Pablo Correa Gómez and Caleb Connolly to explore the development and sustainability of postmarketOS, an open-source Linux distribution designed to extend the life of mobile devices. The team dives into the project's mission, governance, and the community-driven nature of its work. They discuss the challenges related to funding, primarily through grants and Open Collective donations, and the significance of upstreaming Linux kernel support to collaborate with other communities like Alpine Linux. The conversation also highlights the growth of the postmarketOS community, encouraging contributions from both technical and non-technical supporters, and the importance of comprehensive documentation. Additionally, issues of privacy, telemetry, and user support are examined, alongside the steps towards making postmarketOS more professional and economically sustainable. Press download now to hear more! [00:01:30] Pablo explains postmarketOS and its mission to empower people to have full control over their devices and promote sustainability. [00:02:12] Caleb talks about the governance of postmarketOS that started with a few contributors working on a package repository on top of Alpine Linux and overtime more maintainers were added. [00:03:59] There’s a discussion on the structure of the team, how the community around hardware components forms sub-communities bases on common SOCs, and the focus on improving tooling and the ecosystem rather than building a product for end users. [00:06:29] Richard discusses the massive, refurbished phone market and asks about how postmarketOS fits into this ecosystem. Caleb shares their experience working on the OnePlus 6 phone and explains the technical process of making the device work on upstream Linux and the challenges of hardware enablement. [00:10:05] Pablo explains that the project is largely funded by volunteer work and Caleb describes the challenges in deciding which devices to prioritize for hardware enablement and how all hardware work so far has been done by volunteers. [00:14:09] On the importance of upstreaming, Pablo explains that postmarketOS works hard to contribute back to the Linux ecosystem rather that maintaining device-specific patches and postmarketOS is downstream to Alpine Linux but contributes much of its work upstream to maintain sustainability. [00:20:09] Richard asks about how the project builds shared context and onboards new developers and Pablo and Caleb explain how the project relies on its wiki page to provide extensive documentation and how the pmbootstrap tool makes it easier for new contributors to get started with porting new devices to postmarketOS. [00:25:01] Richard asks about telemetry and how the team tracks their impact. [00:25:39] Pablo talks about how they receive community feedback through events like FOSDEM and have seen an increase in donations, social media engagement, and community members. [00:28:39] Caleb reflects on the pros and cons of collecting telemetry, which could help guide development but may also create unwanted challenges by focusing too heavily on specific devices. [00:31:30] What are Pablo and Caleb most excited about for the next year? Pablo is excited about professionalizing the project, starting to pay contributors, and scaling the project’s growth sustainably, and Caleb jokes about looking forward to the “pre-market OS.” Quotes [00:12:00] “We are trying to grow organically, bit by bit, and be able to pay people to do core things where volunteer work doesn’t reach.” [00:15:06] “In the environment we live in, where you have X amount of code per update, it is totally unsustainable.” [00:16:18] “As a distro, we predominately put together the pieces that other people give us.” [00:19:13] “Downstream patches allow to experiment, but long term are a burden. That’s the same for every project.” [00:19:22] “The sustainability goes beyond reducing waste and also goes into the social ecosystem and how we maintain projects.” [00:30:33] “We know we are not ready for end users, but we need to build the structure and economic support.” Spotlight [00:32:32] Richard’s spotlight is DOSBox. [00:33:03] Pablo’s spotlight is FOSDEM and the FOSDEM team. [00:33:57] Caleb’s spotlight is processing.org. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Caleb Connolly Website (https://connolly.tech/) Caleb Connolly-treehouse (https://social.treehouse.systems/@cas) Pablo Correa Gómez Website (https://postmarketos.org/core-contributors/#pablo-correa-gomez-pabloyoyoista) Pablo Correa Gómez LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/pablo-correa-gomez/) postmarketOS (https://postmarketos.org/) postmarketOS (Open Collective Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/postmarketos) Gnome Shell & Mutter (https://blogs.gnome.org/shell-dev/2022/09/09/gnome-shell-on-mobile-an-update/) postmarketOS Devices (https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices) Sustain Podcast-Episode 195: FOSSY 2023 with Denver Gingerich (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/195) Software Freedom Conservancy (https://sfconservancy.org/) FOSSY 2025:July 31-August 1 (https://2025.fossy.us/) linaro (https://www.linaro.org/) postmarketOS Wiki (https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices) pmbootstrap (https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Pmbootstrap) compost.party (https://compost.party/) pmbootstrap v3 by Caleb Connolly (https://connolly.tech/posts/2024_06_15-pmbootstrap-v3/) DOSBox (https://www.dosbox.com/) FOSDEM 2025 (https://fosdem.org/2025/) Processing (https://processing.org/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Caleb Connolly and Pablo Correa Gomez.

Guest Batool Almarzouq Panelist Richard Littauer | Amanda Casari Show Notes In this episode, hosts Richard Littauer and Amanda Casari are joined by Batool Almarzouq, Honorary Research Fellow at the University of Liverpool and Research Project Manager at the Alan Turing Institute. They discuss Batool's work in open science, including her involvement in the Open Science Community Saudi Arabia, localization efforts, and the challenges of connecting global and local open science initiatives. The conversation covers Batool's efforts to make research more accessible and open in the Arab region, the concept of localization vs. translation, her experiences with translation management systems, and the importance of community and mentorship in advancing open science. Batool shares insights from her collaborations with various groups and the influence of Latin American communities on her work. Press download now to hear more! [00:02:11] Batool explains her roles at various institutions and how she promotes open science in Saudi Arabia and globally. [00:03:31] Batool discusses the difficulties Arab researchers face in engaging with open science, including language barriers and the Western focus of many initiatives. [00:04:50] Amanda asks about the vision for open science in Saudi Arabia and Batool talks about open science values in the Arab world and the cultural significance of knowledge sharing pre-colonization. [00:07:56] Batool talks about localization efforts and bridging the gap between Western and Arab scientific norms. [00:11:04] There’s a discussion on how Batool connects researchers and community leaders in Arab countries, the grassroots nature of the Open Science Community Saudi Arabia, and the importance of local engagement. [00:14:20] Batool details the technical tools used for localization, challenges with translating right-to-left languages, and the importance of building open source tools for internationalization. [00:20:20] There’s a conversation on the difficulties in securing funding for localization efforts and the importance of empowering local communities to take charge of their own knowledge production. [00:23:43] Batool shares insights on working with Latin American communities, shared challenges in open science, and the importance of community-led initiatives. [00:25:33] We hear Batool’s thoughts on the importance of mentorship, community, and collective action in creating meaningful change. [00:27:51] Find out where you can follow Batool and her work online. Quotes [00:06:56] “One of the things is that science used to be more transdisciplinary.” [00:11:18] “We have our own full-time jobs, there’s no system that we use in place recording or creating things. It’s more about connecting people and creating that space for this discussion to grow.” [00:25:51] “There’s two places I get a lot of value from outside of academia: engaging with community practice and finding mentors.” [00:27:17] “Finding people who relate to you, relate to your ideas, and also help you articulate them better and see what other people are trying to do gives you a lot of power.” Spotlight [00:28:27] Amanda’s spotlight is PyLadies. [00:29:22] Richard’s spotlight is American Atheists. [00:30:14] Batool’s spotlight is Alycia Crall, Richie Moluno and Goodnews Sandy. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Amanda Casari Linktree (https://linktr.ee/amcasari) Batool Almarzouq LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/batool-almarzouq-093366a1/) Batool Almarzouq Website (https://batool-almarzouq.netlify.app/) The Alan Turing Institute (https://www.turing.ac.uk/) The Turing Way (https://the-turing-way.netlify.app/index.html) Open Science Community Saudi Arabia (https://osc-ksa.com/) Open Science Community Saudi Arabia-Zenodo (https://zenodo.org/communities/1231231664/records?q=&l=list&p=1&s=10&sort=newest) Ramsey Nasser-GitHub (https://github.com/nasser/) Translation management system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation_management_system) Crowdin (https://crowdin.com/) JSQuarto (https://github.com/Open-Science-Community-Saudi-Arabia/JSquarto) PyLadies (https://pyladies.com/) American Atheists (https://www.atheists.org/) Alycia Crall (https://carpentries.org/blog/2021/07/introducing-the-carpentries-director-of-community/) Richie Moluno (https://realrichi3.github.io/) Goodnews Sandy (https://goodnewssandy.netlify.app/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Batool Almarzouq.

Guest Juan Pablo Alperin | John Willinsky Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard discusses the importance of maintaining open access to research with guests Juan Pablo Alperin and John Willinsky from the Public Knowledge Project (PKP). The conversation covers PKP’s history, the development of their open-source software, Open Journal Systems (OJS), and its impact on scholarly publishing. They dive into the integration with other open-access initiatives, the role of AI in future projects, and the challenges faced in balancing sustainability with the rising demands of their growing user base. The episode also touches on community-driven translations and the importance of creating equitable access to knowledge, especially for communities in the global south. Download this episode now! [00:01:20] John explains PKP’s commitment to open access, starting in 1998 with the goal of making research publicly available. [00:02:35] Juan describes Open Journal Systems (OJS) as the flagship open source software of PKP, which facilitates research publication worldwide. [00:04:57] The conversation touches on the peer review process, the importance of making scholarly knowledge open, and how PKP encourages open access through their platform. [00:07:44] John and Juan explain how OJS allows academics and institutions to manage the entire publishing process, from submission to peer review and publication, while maintaining the integrity of research. [00:11:54] John discusses the intersection of open source and open access, noting the successes and challenges that remain in the fight for free and equitable access to research. [00:13:52] Richard inquires about where the funding is coming from, and Juan explains. [00:16:49] The guests highlight how commercial publishers have embraced open access, though often in ways that perpetuate inequalities, such as through article processing charges (APCs). [00:21:09] The discussion touches on sustainability, both in terms of funding PKP and the broader scholarly ecosystem, and the risks of commercializing access to knowledge. [00:25:23] Translation and localization efforts are discussed and how PKP’s platform supports multiple languages, enabling access to knowledge across diverse linguistic communities. [00:31:42] The challenges of integrating non-Western and indigenous knowledge systems into scholarly publishing is discussed. [00:35:57] Juan and John share the hurdles PKP faces in terms of keeping up with community demand and ensuring long-term sustainability. [00:39:41] Find out where you can learn more about the projects online. Quotes [00:12:20] “This was going to be Rhetware, that is, it was rhetorical.” [00:13:07] “Open access is close to 50% of the research in the world that’s published this year will be freely available to the public and researchers everywhere.” [00:14:55] “An important part of our sustainability is that we provide hosting services for the software.” [00:36:40] "As the community has grown, so have the demands and expectations of the project.” Spotlight [00:41:07] Richard’s spotlight is Kawawachikamach, Quebec, [00:41:54] Juan Pablo’s spotlight is the project, pandas. [00:42:31] John’s spotlight is Mattermost. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) John Willinsky LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-willinsky-714a1b241/) Juan Pablo Alperin Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/@juancommander) Public Knowledge Project (PKP) (https://pkp.sfu.ca/) Public Knowledge Project (PKP) Community Forum (https://forum.pkp.sfu.ca/) Public Knowledge Project (PKP) GitHub (https://github.com/pkp) Open Journal Systems (OJS) (https://pkp.sfu.ca/ojs/) Kawawachikamach, Quebec (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawawachikamach,_Quebec) pandas (https://pandas.pydata.org/) Mattermost (https://mattermost.com/) Copyright’s Broken Promise: How to Restore the Law’s Ability to Promote the Progress of Science By John Willinsky (https://direct.mit.edu/books/oa-monograph/5507/Copyright-s-Broken-PromiseHow-to-Restore-the-Law-s) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: John Willinsky and Juan Pablo Alperin.

Guest Nolan Lawson Panelist Richard Littauer | Eric Berry | Justin Dorfman Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, Richard, Justin, and Eric revisit an unreleased interview with Nolan Lawson from 2020. They discuss Nolan's experience as a former maintainer of PouchDB, the emotional labor of being an open source maintainer, and the challenges that led him to step away from such high-profile projects. Nolan also shares his thoughts on the impact of reputation-driven development, open source community dynamics, and his journey towards a healthier relationship with open source. The conversation delves into the candid realities of burnout and the personal sacrifices often made by unpaid open source contributors. Nolan highlights his transition to more sustainable open source practices and his new interests including his work on a Mastodon client called Pinafore. Download now to hear more! [00:01:43] Nolan explains his background with PouchDB and shares his fascination with databases and browser technologies. [00:02:58] Richard shares his personal connection to PouchDB, mentioning how he discovered Nolan through his work on the project. [00:03:26] Nolan talks about his blog post form 2017 titled, “What it feels like to be an open source maintainer,” which reflected on the emotional toll and burnout he experienced for maintaining PouchDB. [00:05:33] Justin reflects on the impact of Nolan’s blog post, describing it as a “shot heard around the world” in the open source community. [00:06:48] Eric asks why Nolan and other maintainers stay involved in open source despite the challenges. Nolan explains that reputational benefits and personal interest in the technology were initial motivators for staying involved. [00:10:27] Eric asks Nolan how he realized it was time to step away from maintaining PouchDB. Nolan shares that personal life changes helped him reassess his involvement in open source and reflects on advice he received from other maintainers. [00:14:36] Richard emphasizes the personal and emotional investment many maintainers have in their projects and Nolan acknowledges the privilege of being able to work on open source, but also the challenges it poses for maintainers who feel they cannot leave. [00:21:13] Nolan shares stepping away from PouchDB has improved his mental health and personal relationships and he maintains smaller open source projects. [00:24:00] Nolan explains the importance of being personally invested in a project and realizing when it’s time to move on and Justin reflects on his own experience of stepping away from maintaining a project after years of involvement. [00:26:00] Eric asks if funding could have made a difference for Nolan’s involvement in open source, and Nolan shares that he avoided funding, preferring to keep his work as a “labor of love.” [00:26:52] What is Nolan currently doing? He talks about maintaining a Mastodon client and focusing on personal projects that bring him joy. [00:30:00] Richard discusses the importance of balancing open source work with personal life and the need for a sustainable approach to maintaining projects. [00:30:46] Eric highlights the vulnerability and self-awareness Nolan has shown in discussing his open source journey, thanking him for sharing his experiences. [00:33:13] Find out where you can follow Nolan on the internet. Spotlight [00:33:41] Justin’s spotlight is Metabase. [00:34:16] Eric’s spotlight is Parametric. [00:35:08] Richard’s spotlight is IPFS. [00:35:22] Nolan’s spotlight is fake-indexeddb. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Justin Dorfman X (https://twitter.com/jdorfman?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Eric Berry X (https://x.com/coderberry?lang=en) Nolan Lawson Blog (https://nolanlawson.com/) Nolan Lawson Mastodon (https://toot.cafe/@nolan) “What it feels like to be an open source maintainer” (Blog post by Nolan) (https://nolanlawson.com/2017/03/05/what-it-feels-like-to-be-an-open-source-maintainer/) PouchDB (https://pouchdb.com/) Pinafore (https://pinafore.social/) Salesforce (https://www.salesforce.com/) Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software by Nadia Eghbal (https://press.stripe.com/working-in-public) Metabase (https://www.metabase.com/) Parametric (https://github.com/ismasan/parametric) IPFS (https://www.ipfs.com/) fake-indexeddb (GitHub) (https://github.com/dumbmatter/fakeIndexedDB) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Nolan Lawson.

Guest Gina Häußge Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, Richard chats with guest Gina Häußge, the creator and maintainer of OctoPrint, a web interface for 3D printers. Gina shares her journey in open-source development, discussing how she transitioned to working full-time on OctoPrint through crowdfunding. She talks about managing burnout, maintaining a healthy community, and the complexities of balancing development with user demands. Gina also explains the importance of API stability for plugin developers and her approach to keeping the project sustainable. The episode highlights Gina's creative solutions, such as the introduction of an achievement system to engage users and encourage project support. Press download now to hear more! [00:01:38] Gina shares how she combats the stress and emotional toll of dealing with entitled users by using a heavy bag and playing the “DOOM” soundtrack. [00:03:24] Gina explains OctoPrint and all its features. [00:06:00] Richard inquires about Gina’s approach to governance and how she maintains a healthy community while preventing burnout. Gina explains her gut feeling-driven approach to building the project and how it turned into a larger community. [00:08:51] Gina talks about how she transitioned to a four-day work week to protect her mental and physical health, and how it improved her productivity and well-being. [00:10:34] There’s a discussion about the importance of API stability for OctoPrint’s plugin developers, and Gina explains her efforts to maintain backward compatibility and avoid breaking plugins with every new release. [00:14:34] Richard asks how Gina manages community communication with forums, Discord, and other tools. She mentions the importance of searchable forums for documentation over real-time communication platforms like Discord. [00:16:58] A conversation comes up on the “third-party licenses” file on OctoPrint’s GitHub, and Gina explains it’s to ensure proper credit and transparency. [00:18:45] Gina discusses how some early architectural decisions for OctoPrint were based on gut feeling and she talks about the complexity of modernizing the UI due to the large plugin ecosystem and technical debt. [00:23:21] Gina shares her discomfort with self-promotion but explains how essential crowdfunding is to keep OctoPrint alive, and she highlights a post she wrote about financial concerns and how it led to a significant increase in support. [00:27:09] Gina shares how she introduced a fun achievement system into OctoPrint to engage users and gently remind them about supporting the project. [00:29:50] Find out where you can follow Gina and OctoPrint online. Quotes [00:18:58] Why this Thirdpartylicense.md file: “It felt like the right thing to do.” [00:19:29] When did your gut feeling fail: “Architectural decisions throughout the lifespan of OctoPrint when I didn’t know anything better.” [00:20:42] “A plugin system like OctoPrint is both a feature and a curse.” [00:23:54] “I hate being in the spotlight, I hate marketing myself, but I do love doing this work.” [00:24:17] “I feel like I’m actually making a difference and if I want to keep doing that, then I need funding.” Spotlight [00:30:45] Richard’s spotlight is Eric Berry, an excellent human. [00:31:05] Gina’s spotlight is the Advanced Bash-Scripting Guide. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Gina Häußge LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ginahaeussge/) Gina Häußge Website (https://foosel.net/) OctoPrint (https://octoprint.org/) OctoPrint GitHub (https://github.com/OctoPrint/OctoPrint) OctoPrint Third Party Licenses GitHub (https://github.com/OctoPrint/OctoPrint/blob/master/THIRDPARTYLICENSES.md) Eric Berry X (https://x.com/coderberry?lang=en) Advanced Bash-Scripting Guide by Mendel Cooper (https://tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/index.html) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Gina Häußge.

Guest Juliana Barros Lima Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, Richard Littauer talks with Juliana (Jules) Barros Lima, a full-stack developer and marketing director at Associação Python Brasil. They explore Jules' involvement in organizing and supporting Python events across Brazil, including her work with PyLadies Recife and Python Brasil. The conversation dives into the challenges of fostering diversity and inclusion in open-source communities, touching on Jules’ "atomic diversity" framework for engaging local, regional, and national groups. They also discuss the impact of the pandemic on the Python community, the importance of mentorship, and the role of diverse organizing teams in creating codes of conduct that are empathetic and effective. Jules emphasizes the significance of leadership development, community collaboration, and stepping out of comfort zones to strengthen open-source communities globally. Download now to hear more! [00:01:57] Jules gives an overview of the Associação Python Brasil, what they do, and the challenges of managing a large community. [00:03:39] Jules discusses recent events organized and supported by the association and mentions that Python Brasil 2024 will be held in Rio de Janeiro and expected to have at least 300-500 attendees. [00:04:49] Jules discusses the importance of recognizing different regions’ unique cultural and economic situations within Brazil. [00:06:31] We learn about the importance of subgroups and identity-based communities like PyLadies, and Jules shares insights from a talk given at PyCon US about amplifying diversity within Python communities and introduces the concept of “atomic diversity.” [00:11:43] Jules highlights how the pandemic impacted Brazil’s Python community and discusses efforts to rebuild the community through open source tools and events. [00:14:07] Richard asks about how Brazil’s Python community fits within the larger global context and how Brazilian developers can bridge these gaps. Jules mentions that the community is still recovering and growing, the challenges with language barriers, and emphasizes the significance of maintaining open discussions and using GitHub. [00:17:12] Richard and Jules discuss the importance of having diverse organizing teams and codes of conduct (COCs). [00:23:03] Jules offers insights into the organizational challenges faced in building inclusive events and communities. One key takeaway is the importance of engaging and listening to minority groups, such as PyLadies and Rails Girls, and the need for mentorship to help build leadership within underrepresented communities. [00:26:52] Jules stresses that community work is about giving back to the people and organizations that helped individuals grow. [00:31:32] Jules shares strategies to foster new leadership by giving people manageable tasks and responsibilities to build confidence, engaging the community through social media, storytelling, and the need for cross-community collaboration. [00:36:00] Find out where you can follow Jules online. Spotlight [00:36:39] Richard’s spotlight is ‘cat’ Command. [00:37:08] Jules’s spotlight is the project, Querido Diário (Dear Diary). Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Juliana (Jules) Barros Lima Website (https://bento.me/julesbrlm) Python Brasil 2024 (https://2024.pythonbrasil.org.br/) Associação Python Brasil (https://apyb.python.org.br/index.html) APyB (Python Brasil Association) (https://apyb.python.org.br/) APyB Tarefas (Tasks) (https://github.com/apyb/tarefas) APyB Comunidade (Discussions) (https://github.com/apyb/comunidade/discussions) PyLadies Recife (https://recife.pyladies.com/) PyLadies (https://pyladies.com/) Rails Girls (https://railsgirls.com/) Querido Diário (https://docs.queridodiario.ok.org.br/pt-br/latest/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Juliana Barros Lima.

Guest Jenn Turner Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer interviews Jenn Turner, a content strategist at Fastly and part of the Glitch team. They discuss Jenn's unusual journey from journalism to open source, the challenges of being a non-technical contributor in a technical field, and the importance of effective communication in open source projects. Jen shares insights about maintaining work-life balance, the role of community in sustaining open source, and the impact of social media changes on community engagement. They also touch on strategies for non-technical contributions to open source and the value of humanities skills in tech. Hit download now to hear more! [00:01:57] Jenn shares her journey into open source. [00:05:09] Richard asks how Jenn navigated being an editor through the world of open source. She emphasizes that many brilliant coders lack the communication skills necessary to bring communities along and highlights the importance of developing critical thinking skills through humanities courses. [00:07:25] Jenn talks about how editors and writers can play an essential role in promoting and communicating the value of open source projects. [00:08:30] We learn that Jenn had to deal with the pressure to learn how to code early in her career, but she recognized coding wasn’t her passion. [00:10:38] Jenn explains how she contributed to Node.js community by writing newsletters and serving on the community committee. [00:11:56] Richard and Jenn discuss the challenges of identifying as non-technical while contributing to technical spaces. [00:14:58] Jenn shares how she decoupled her identity from her occupation to prioritize time with her daughter. [00:17:23] We hear advice from Jenn for non-technical people looking to join a project in open source. [00:21:18] Richard and Jenn discuss the importance of event organizing in the open source space, encouraging listeners to get involved with organizing conferences. [00:23:09] Jenn reflects on the challenges of social media and community engagement, and she shares how Glitch and Fastly try to create meaningful conversations in their forums to foster a more centralized community. [00:32:06] There’s a conversation on the importance of having a style guide for social media to ensure consistency and fun communication. [00:34:00] Find out there you follow Jenn and find her work online. Quotes [00:05:16] “One of the funny things about the tech industry is how much emphasis is put on the ability to code.” [00:05:24] “You could be the world’s most intelligent coder but have no skillset to bring a community along.” [00:13:42] “Truly no one’s value is creating code on a project; it’s their thought process and all of the intentions and goals and things that they’re working towards.” [00:23:33] “You have to have a level of cultural fluency in order to be able to authentically connect with your audience.” Spotlight [00:35:13] Richard’s spotlight is Nolan Lawson. [00:37:12] Jenn’s spotlight is Lynn Fisher’s website, lynnandtonic.com. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:ricahrd@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Jenn Turner Website (https://jennturner.glitch.me/) Jenn Turner Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/@jennwrites) Jenn Turner LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennwrites/) Glitch Blog (https://blog.glitch.com/) Glitch (https://glitch.com/) Fastly (https://www.fastly.com/) Human JavaScript by Henri Joreteg (https://read.humanjavascript.com/) Sustain Podcast-Episode 59: Jenn Schiffer on Satire, Coding, Why Teaching OSS is Super Important (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/59) Sustain Podcast-Episode 244: Jan Lehnardt & Alba Herrerías Ramírez of Neighbourhood.ie (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/jan-lehnardt) Sustain Podcast-2 episodes featuring guest Tracy Hinds (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/hinds) Sustain Podcast-2 episodes featuring guest Ashley Williams (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/williams) Whichlight (https://whichlight.com/) Anil Dash Website (https://www.anildash.com/) Robbie Augspurger Website (https://www.robbieaugspurger.com/) Digital Savvies (https://digitalsavvies.com/) Nolan Lawson Website (https://nolanlawson.com/) Lynn Fisher Website (https://lynnandtonic.com/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Jenn Turner.

Guest Lorenzo Sciandra | Mirko Swillus Panelist Richard Littauer | Abby Mayes Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer and co-host Abby Mayes are joined by Lorenzo Sciandra and Mirko Swillus from the Sovereign Tech Fund (STF) to discuss the launch of the "Fellowship for Maintainers" program. Funded by the German government, STF is dedicated to supporting open-source sustainability by funding maintainers, especially those who work on multiple projects. Lorenzo and Mirko explain how the program aims to bridge funding gaps for solo maintainers, provide mentorship, and ensure global inclusion. The episode also highlights the program's goals, the application process, and the broader impact on global open source sustainability. Hit download now to hear more! [00:01:28] Richard discusses the Sovereign Tech Fund. [00:02:52] Lorenzo highlights the launch of the “Fellowship for Maintainers” program. [00:04:16] Mirko explains that the program is a pilot, starting small and adopting an iterative approach to learn with the community and designed to fill gaps for solo maintainers who work across multiple projects. [00:06:23] Richard asks why STF is focusing on funding individuals rather than specific projects. Mirko explains maintainers often perform important but unseen work, such as security triaging, code reviews, and documentation. [00:08:45] Abby asks about the results of the survey STF conducted in preparation for the fellowship program. Mirko reveals results and insights about the survey and gives a shout-out to their communications manager, Pohen Shiah. [00:10:58] Lorenzo talks about mentorship being a key part of the fellowship and the goal to help fellows set goals and provide support beyond financial assistance. [00:14:14] Lorenzo explains the flexible, personalized nature of mentorship versus coaching and discuses common challenges and Mirko talks about the balance between full-time jobs and maintaining open source projects and explores the idea of part-time maintenance and considers making room for small freelance maintainers. [00:18:59] Richard asks why the program isn’t supporting more maintainers for fewer house each week. Mirko explains how the pilot is designed to experiment with different models. [00:20:29] Richard questions how STF will ensure diversity in selecting fellows and Mirko explains how STF is committed to global inclusion and how freelancers can apply. [00:22:22] We learn how STF will measure success with a discussion on how it be evaluated through various metrics and external experts will also help STF define success metrics for the fellowship. [00:26:39] Richard inquires if STF has reached out to other countries to expand the program. Mirko explains that STF is building global awareness of the program and the European Union and other entitles have shown interests. [00:28:24] Find out where to apply and the application process. Spotlight [00:30:23] Abby’s spotlight is Yoga Mamas Toronto, the community. [00:31:06] Richard’s spotlight is his friend, Jamie McQuilken. [00:31:53] Lorenzo’s spotlight is Proton. [00:32:47] Mirko’s spotlight is Signal app. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@sustainoss.org (mailto:richard@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Abby Cabunoc Mayes X (http://x.com/abbycabs?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Lorenzo Sciandra LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorenzo-sciandra/) Lorenzo Sciandra Website (https://kelset.dev/) Mirko Swillus LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/mirko-swillus-3a0714191/) Mirko Swillus chaos social (https://chaos.social/@mechko) Sustain Podcast-Episode 17: How Formidable Supports Open Source With Lorenzo Sciandra (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/17) Powen Shiah LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/powenshiah/) Sovereign Tech Fund Mission (https://www.sovereigntechfund.de/mission) Sovereign Tech Fund-Fellowship for Maintainers Introduction (https://www.sovereigntechfund.de/news/introducing-the-fellowship-for-maintainers) Sovereign Tech Fund Fellowship for Maintainers Application (https://www.sovereigntechfund.de/news/apply-to-the-fellowship-for-maintainers) Sovereign Tech Fund-Fellowship for Maintainers Program (https://www.sovereigntechfund.de/programs/fellowship) Sovereign Tech Fund-Fellowship for Maintainers FAQ (https://www.sovereigntechfund.de/programs/fellowship/faq) Yoga Mamas-Toronto (https://www.torontoyogamamas.com/) Proton (https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton) Signal (https://github.com/signalapp) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Lorenzo Sciandra and Mirko Swillus.

Guest Chad Whitacre Panelists Richard Littauer | Eriol Fox Show Notes In this episode, host Richard Littauer and co-host Eriol Fox interview Chad Whitacre, a key figure in the open source community and Head of Open Source at Sentry. Today, they delve into the challenges and strategies related to sustaining open source projects, focusing on Sentry's efforts to fund open source through various initiatives, including the ambitious Open Source Pledge. The discussion covers the history of Sentry's commitment to open source, the creation of a comprehensive funding program, and the launch of the Open Source Pledge. The pledge aims to encourage companies to contribute financially to open source by establishing a social norm. Chad also touches on the broader impact and potential of open source foundations and platforms in allocating funds and supporting maintainers, highlighting the importance of making open source a core part of company culture and brand identity. Press download now to hear more! [00:01:50] Chad provides a brief history of Sentry, its evolution from an open source project to a start-up, and its commitment to support open source projects. He discusses Sentry’s open source funding program, its growth over the years, and the company’s budget plans for the current year. [00:04:04] Chad talks about the importance of other companies joining Sentry in funding open source projects and mentions the launch of the “Open Source Pledge.” [00:05:05] Chad explains that funding open source is part of Sentry’s brand marketing, similar to how large companies sponsor events for brand visibility. [00:07:48] Richard asks about the potential dilution of Sentry’s brand by encouraging other companies to join the funding efforts. Chad explains that the “Open Source Pledge” requires companies to contribute a minimum of $2,000 per developer annually and share their contributions publicly. [00:11:37] Eriol expresses concerns about the focus on developers, noting the importance of other roles like designers in the open source ecosystem. Chad acknowledges the different roles in open source and discusses how Sentry focuses on funding dependencies critical to their tech stack. [00:14:56] Chad talks about the role of open source foundations, especially in light of new European regulations (CRA), and their potential to steward funds more effectively. [00:18:55] Richard questions how foundations can pay developers under U.S. law, leading to a discussion on the need for potential changes in how foundations operate. [00:21:48] Eriol appreciates the “Open Source Pledge” for providing a vocabulary and structure to involve organizations and companies in supporting open source. [00:23:06] Chad talks about the upcoming media campaign to promote the pledge and the aim to establish a new social norm around funding open source. [00:25:13] Richard asks how the pledge ensures that funds given are truly no-strings- attached to which Chad responds that platforms like GitHub Sponsors typically enforce a no-strings-attached culture, and the pledge doesn’t directly handle funds but incentivizes companies to contribute through established platforms. [00:27:56] Richard seeks clarification on how the pledge ensures contributions don’t come with expectations of ongoing development work from maintainers. Chad emphasizes the need for adding more financial support to the open source ecosystem and fostering collaboration among platforms, foundations, and maintainers. [00:33:49] The conversation concludes with a brief mention of Fair Source, another initiative Chad is involved in. [00:34:14] Find out where you can follow Chad and his work online. Spotlight [00:34:56] Eriol’s spotlight is a project called, Cofacts. [00:35:45] Richards’s spotlight is his high school advisor, Rob Kyff. [00:36:25] Chad’s spotlight is Kim Coggin, a dry stack stonewaller. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (email) (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@theuserismymom.com (email) (mailto:richard@theuserismymom.com) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Eriol Fox X/Twitter (https://x.com/EriolDoesDesign?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Chad Whitacre LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/chadwhitacre/) Chad Whitacre Blog (https://openpath.chadwhitacre.com/) Chad Whitacre X/Twitter (https://x.com/chadwhitacre_?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Sentry (https://sentry.io/welcome/) The Future of FOSS Foundations by Chad Whitacre (https://openpath.chadwhitacre.com/2024/the-future-of-foss-foundations/) Open Source Pledge-GitHub (https://github.com/opensourcepledge/osspledge.com) Open Source Pledge (https://osspledge.com/) Fair Source (https://fair.io/) Cofacts (https://github.com/cofacts) Rob Kyff (https://www.creators.com/author/rob-kyff) Rob Kyff-The Word Guy (https://www.creators.com/features/rob-kyff-word-guy) Kim Coggin-Laurel Stoneworks (https://www.laurelstoneworks.com/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Chad Whitacre.

Guest Divya Mohan Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode, host Richard Littauer welcomes guest Divya Mohan, Principal Technology Advocate at SUSE, as they discuss her journey into open source and her role in advocating for SUSE's projects. The conversation delves into the importance of community involvement, the goals of CHAOSS Asia, and the challenges of fostering a cohesive open-source community across a diverse continent. They also explore the necessity of standardization within the CHAOSS project to ensure trust and reliability, highlighting cultural differences in open-source adoption across Asia. Additionally, Divya shares insights on bridging gaps in FOSS education, overcoming language barriers, and new initiatives, including efforts to include Oceania and focus on disabled Asians in the open-source community. Press download now to hear more! [00:01:30] Divya explains her journey into open source and her current role in advocating for projects without focusing on marketing or selling. [00:02:24] She elaborates on SUSE’s focus on cloud-native projects, SAP, and Edge, while mentioning that she was the sole technology advocate until recently. [00:03:02] Divya discusses her responsibilities, including creating awareness materials, live streams, and courses around SUSE’s projects, particularly focusing on open source projects. [00:04:22] Divya emphasizes the importance of community involvement in open source projects, mentioning that while the core maintainers are SUSE employees, the wider community is encouraged to contribute. She also clarifies that SUSE projects are inherently open source from the beginning. [00:07:42] The conversation shifts to Divya’s involvement in CHAOSS Asia, a regional chapter of the CHAOSS project, and she talks about the goals of CHAOSS Asia, which include discovering unique challenges of open source communities in Asia, building a database of these communities, and working on the standardization of metrics. [00:11:42] The discussion delves deeper into why standardization is necessary for CHAOSS Asia, particularly focusing on the regional differences and the need for a trusted seal of approval. [00:13:26] Richard questions the necessity of ISO standards for open source projects, and Divya explains that it’s about providing a clear definition of what is accepted within the metrics, drawing parallels with the open chain standard. [00:15:39] The conversation returns to the ISO standard, with Divya noting that the demand for a standard came from Asian companies, highlighting the cultural and regional differences in the IT industry. [00:17:14] Richard and Divya discuss the diverse approaches to open source contributions across different Asian regions and the challenges of fostering a cohesive open source community across such a diverse continent. [00:19:03] Divya shares insights on the varying governmental and business support for open source in different Asian countries, and the fragmented nature of FOSS education across the continent. [00:22:17] Divya touches on the language barriers within CHAOSS Asia and how they’re addressed through transcription tools and subgroups. She also mentions new initiatives, including a focus group for disabled Asians in the open source community. [00:23:26] Richard and Divya discuss the inclusion of Oceania in CHAOSS Asia and expresses hope for more participation from Oceania. [00:24:40] Find out where you can follow Divya and CHAOSS Asia online. Quotes [00:22:50] “OSS projects are the best example of how asynchronous communities can give something of value.” Spotlight [00:25:36] Richard’s spotlight is Stephen E. Thorpe. [00:26:44] Divya’s spotlight is Savitha Raghunathan. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (email) (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@theuserismymom.com (email) (mailto:richard@theuserismymom.com) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Divya Mohan LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/divya-mohan0209/) Divya Mohan’s Website (https://www.divyamohan.com/) Divya Mohan X/Twitter (https://x.com/Divya_Mohan02?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SUSE (https://www.suse.com/) CHAOSS Asia (https://github.com/chaoss/chaoss-asia) CHAOSS Metrics and Metrics Models (https://chaoss.community/kb-metrics-and-metrics-models/) Stephen E. Thorpe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_E._Thorpe) Savitha Raghunathan LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/savitharaghunathan/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Divya Mohan.

Guest Brian Douglas Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer talks with Brian “bdougie” Douglas, founder and CEO of Open Sauced. They discuss the multifaceted aspects of sustaining open source projects, Brian’s journey in developer advocacy, and the unique goals of Open Sauced. Brian shares insights from his experiences at GitHub and Netlify, elaborates on concepts like lottery factor and the significance of unique issue authors, and tackles the challenges of maintaining open source sustainability. He also explores the balance of addressing enterprise needs while supporting smaller, less visible projects and emphasizes the importance of education and community engagement in open source. Press download now! [00:01:54] Brian discusses his background at GitHub and Netlify, his role in promoting GraphQL, GitHub Actions, Codespaces, and the inception of Open Sauced. [00:03:08] We hear about the features of Open Sauced’s dashboard which enhances GitHub insights, OSSF scorecards, and workspace customizations for managing multiple projects. [00:04:31] Open Sauced’s business model is currently founded by VC money and aims to serve large organizations with significant open source dependencies, and Brian talks about the team size and funding history. [00:06:08] Brian elaborates on Open Sauced’s long-term sustainability plan, focusing on enterprise-level solutions for open source project observability and contributions. [00:09:31] There’s a discussion on how Open Sauced interacts with open source communities and the importance of real-world testing and contributions to open source projects. [00:11:06] Richard highlights the FOSS Funders initiative, encouraging companies to support open source projects financially and through active participation. [00:12:44] Brian shares insights on effective metrics for evaluating open source projects, emphasizing the importance of engaging with unique issue authors rather than focusing solely on superficial metrics like pull requests, and discusses his approach to starting meaningful conversations in the open source community. [00:16:08] Brian explains why he renamed “Lottery Factor” to “Contributor Absence Factor,” and discusses the Pgvector project to illustrate the importance of understanding the “Contributor Absence Factor” and the sustainability concerns when a project relies heavily on a few contributors. [00:18:20] We learn more about how Open Sauced sources its data, including their use of GitHub’s events feed and their development of the “Pizza Oven” tool to generate insights from Git repositories. [00:20:21] Richard and Brian discuss the challenges of maintaining an open source ethos when dealing with large companies’ internal projects, avoiding becoming merely service providers for large corporate entities. [00:24:14] Brian discusses the long-term implications of open source projects that receive substantial funding or become integrated into larger corporate frameworks. [00:27:27] Richard brings up the difficulty many open source projects face in accessing significant funding and Brian shares his vision for supporting less prominent open source projects drawing analogies from his personal experiences. [00:32:42] Richard questions the “up the chain” analogy, comparing it to a pyramid scheme or academia’s tenure track. Brian acknowledges the need to support contributors at all levels, not just those at the top, and he introduces the concept of a S Bomb to provide transparency about project dependencies. [00:39:36] Find out where you can follow Brian on the web. Spotlight [00:40:17] Richard’s spotlight is Mr. Carreras, an awesome music teacher. [00:40:59] Brian’s spotlight is Dawn Foster at the CHAOSS Project and the CHAOSS Practitioner Guides. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (email) (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@theuserismymom.com (email) (mailto:richard@theuserismymom.com) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Brian Douglas- Open Sauced (https://app.opensauced.pizza/u/bdougie) Brian Douglas Website (https://b.dougie.dev/) Brian Douglas GitHub (https://github.com/bdougie) Brian Douglas X/Twitter (https://github.com/bdougie) The Secret Sauce Open Sauced Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-secret-sauce/id1644263270) The Secret Sauce Podcast: ‘The Future of Cloud Native and AI with Brendan Burns’ (https://podcasts.apple.com/fr/podcast/the-future-of-cloud-native-and-ai-with-brendan-burns/id1644263270?i=1000658092259) Open Sauced (https://opensauced.pizza/) Renaming Bus Factor #632 (CHAOSS community) (https://github.com/chaoss/community/issues/632#issuecomment-2152929617) FOSS Funders (https://fossfunders.com/) Andrew Kane GitHub (https://github.com/ankane) Chad Whitacre Website (https://chadwhitacre.com/) Fair Source (https://fair.io/) CHAOSS (https://chaoss.community/) Your Copilot for Git History (Open Sauced) (https://opensauced.pizza/docs/features/star-search/) Open Sauced GitHub (https://github.com/open-sauced/pizza) InnerSource Commons (https://innersourcecommons.org/) Sustain Podcast-Episode 148: Ali Nehzat of thanks.dev and OSS Funding (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/148) Learning in Public with Kelsey Hightower (Curiefense) (https://www.curiefense.io/blog/learning-in-public-with-kelsey-hightower/) Welcome to Wrexham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Wrexham) Sustain Podcast-Episode 159: Dawn Foster & Andrew Nesbitt at State of Open Con 2023 (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/foster) Dr. Dawn Foster Mastodon (https://hachyderm.io/@geekygirldawn) About the CHAOSS Practitioner Guides (https://chaoss.community/about-chaoss-practitioner-guides/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Brian Douglas.

Guests Jan Lehnardt | Alba Herrerías Ramírez Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer engages with Jan Lehnardt and Alba Herrerías Ramírez from Neighbourhoodie, a consultancy company based in Berlin and the Canary Islands. The discussion delves into Neighbourhoodie’s work on sustaining open source projects, their collaboration with the Sovereign Tech Fund for enhancing open source project's bug resilience, and the technical and ethical facets of their consultancy services. Insights are shared into their past and current projects, including PouchDB, CouchDB, and their contributions to humanitarian causes, emphasizing their focus on creating a sustainable impact in the open source community. Press download now to hear more! [00:01:55] Jan explains the origin of Neighbourhoodie, which began with the Hoodie open source project, how the company evolved, the decline of the Hoodie project due to timing and resources, and how CouchDB and PouchDB continued to thrive. [00:04:27] Richard asks about the company’s name and its novelty domain, and Jan gives an overview of Neighbourhoodie’s size and slow and steady growth, and their focus on a positive work environment. [00:05:51] Jan gives a detail explanation of CouchDB and PouchDB’s functionality, particularly their offline-first and synchronization capabilities, and how this has been used in critical projects like the Ebola vaccine. [00:08:41] Richard asks about maintaining ethical work practices and avoiding projects that conflict with Neighbourhoodie’s values. [00:09:53] Jan discusses how Neighbourhoodie balances reinvesting in open source projects and expanding the company, focusing on professional services around CouchDB and PouchDB. [00:11:53] Alba describes her role in leading Sovereign Tech Fund (STF) projects within Neighbourhoodie, and how they engage with various projects to offer support. [00:13:31] Jan explains the STF’s Bug Resilience Program. [00:16:33] Richard asks about the potential ethical dilemma when third-party consultants like Neighbourhoodie might be taking work that could have otherwise gone to maintainers themselves. We hear how Neighbourhoodie, the projects, and the STF agree on statements of work, including milestones and time estimates, to ensure fairness and proper allocation of resources. [00:21:23] We learn from Jan that dealing with low-quality bug reports isn’t a primary focus of their work, but improving test coverage, dependency updates, and CI/CD processes helps mitigate these issues as a side effect. [00:22:54] Alba talks about the different types of projects they work in, such as OpenPGP.js, Sequioa, Yocto, PyPi, Systemd, PHP, Log4j, and reproducible builds. [00:23:49] Jan discusses the challenges and learning opportunities that comes with working across diverse projects, each with its own set of tools, communication styles, and cultural contexts. [00:25:29] Richard reflects on the complexity of open source sustainability and Alba describes how they research projects and identify areas where they can provide the most help, tailoring their approach to the specific needs of each project. [00:27:25] Jan explains that they don’t dictate solutions but rather collaborate with projects to address their most pressing needs, often helping to mediate between different parts of a project to find common ground. [00:30:07] Jan explains how they educate clients to take responsibility for the scripts they deliver, unless there’s a long-term support contract in place. [00:32:00] We learn how the Neighbourhoodie transition was organic and not part of a grand strategy and how they continue to contribute to open source through their consulting work. [00:34:54] Richard questions the choice of open source as the main focus given its limitations, and Jan explains that open source is widely understood and accessible, making it a practical choice for their work. [00:37:35] Alba and Jan share some highlights and fun things from their work. [00:39:32] Find out where you can follow Jan and Alba online. Quotes [00:02:19] “The goal was to have two separate entities so that when the company puts out an open source project in its own name, and then the company goes under, and the project goes away, we wanted to not have that.” [00:24:08] “If you do software long enough, you realize that the technical problems are just the sideshow and everything else you have to solve things on the people layer instead of the technology layer.” [00:25:06] “The current monoculture of everything is on GitHub is not the only truth out there.” [00:35:34] “Open source is the thing that everybody understands.” Spotlight [00:40:57] Richard’s spotlight is Gregor Martynus. [00:41:54] Jan’s spotlight is AdonisJS. [00:42:45] Alba’s spotlight is PouchDB. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (email) (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@theuserismymom.com (email) (mailto:richard@theuserismymom.com) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Alba Herrerías Ramírez LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alba-herrerias-ramirez/) Alba Herrerías Ramírez Website (https://www.albaherrerias.dev/) Alba Herrerías Ramírez Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/@albaherrerias) Alba Herrerías Ramírez email (mailto:alba@neighbourhood.ie) Jan Lehnardt LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jan-lehnardt-750b0816b/) Jan Lehnardt Website (https://writing.jan.io/) Jan Lehnardt Mastodon (https://narrativ.es/@janl) Jan Lehnardt email (mailto:jan@neighbourhood.ie) Neighbourhoodie Software (https://neighbourhood.ie/) CouchDB (https://couchdb.apache.org/) Sovereign Tech Fund (https://www.sovereigntechfund.de/) Bug Resilience Program (STF) (https://www.sovereigntechfund.de/programs/bug-resilience) Sustain Podcast: 2 episodes with guest Daniel Stenburg (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/stenberg) Gregor Martynus-GitHub (https://github.com/gr2m) AdonisJS (https://adonisjs.com/) PouchDB (https://pouchdb.com/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Alba Herrerías Ramírez and Jan Lehnardt.

Guests Elizabeth Barron | Luis Cañas-Diaz | Dawn Foster Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer is joined by three guests, Dawn Foster, Elizabeth Barron, and Luis Cañas Diaz, to discuss the CHAOSS Project's recent development of Practitioner Guides. The show delves into the purpose of these guides, which are designed to help open source projects interpret and utilize metrics to improve community health and sustainability. The guests explain the significance of metrics in open source projects, the challenges of defining and making them accessible, and how the guides can benefit different types of projects, from large corporations to individual developers. Topics covered include the background and format of the guides, specifics on the metrics discussed, and the practical applications and improvements these guides aim to facilitate. Go ahead and download this episode now! [00:01:53] Dawn fills us in on the connections between the guests and their collective work on the CHAOSS Practitioner Guides. [00:02:33] The conversation shifts to the specifics of the CHAOSS Project, highlighting the international community involvement and various working groups focusing on different aspects of open source projects like corporate OSPOs, university OSPOs, and diversity and equity initiatives. [00:04:21] Luis describes the origin and work of Bitergia and its collaboration with CHAOSS Project, particularly in developing tools like Grimoire Lab. [00:06:07] Richard turns the discussion to the CHAOSS Project’s Practitioner Guides, where Dawn discusses the purpose of the introduction guide in the series, designed to help users understand and apply metrics effectively across various open source contexts. [00:09:48] There’s a discussion on the format of the guides, emphasizing their accessibility, ethical considerations in data handling, and how they’re designed to be adaptable to different needs. Luis highlights the need for CHAOSS and Bitergia projects to provide actionable insights rather than just more metrics. [00:12:18] Elizabeth and Dawn explain the broader goal of the guides to not only provide metrics but also helps users interpret and apply these to drive tangible improvements in open source projects. [00:13:44] We learn about the target audience for the guides and how they cater to both large organizational structures (OSPOs) and individual project maintainers. [00:15:04] Dawn explains what the Contributor Sustainability Guide focuses on, emphasizing strategies for sustainable contribution and community involvement in open source projects. [00:16:42] The discussion centers on renaming the “bus factor” metric to “contributor absence factor” to avoid the negative connotations of the original term, Luis emphasizes the relevance of metrics, particularly in small projects, and Dawn explains that the guides focus on a few key metrics per guide, chosen for their ease of understanding and minimal requirement for data collection. [00:20:47] Richard inquires about the effectiveness of metrics in identifying if a project is on the wrong path, prompting a discussion on the goals of a project and how metrics align with those metrics. Elizabeth and Dawn stress the importance of aligning metrics with project goals and involving project contributors in discussions about what metrics are most relevant. [00:23:26] The discussion continues with considerations on how metrics should supplement, not replace, expert judgement and involvement in project management. Elizabeth and Richard discuss the potential for projects to start with community growth in mind and the challenges in measuring and guiding such growth. [00:27:07] The conversation switches to the remaining guides not yet covered, with Richard asking about the guides on Responsiveness and Organizational Participation. Dawn explains the Responsiveness guide, with its focus on key metrics like time to first response, time to close, and change request closure ratio. Elizabeth and Luis share why this is one of their favorite guides. [00:32:12] We hear about the broader applicability of the guides. Richard questions if the guides are only for corporate-driven projects or if they can serve more relaxed open source environments. Dawn and Luis emphasize that the guides are valuable for a variety of stakeholders, including foundations and volunteers. [00:33:49] Find out where you can look at the Practitioner Guides online. Quotes [00:06:34] “At the CHAOSS Project we have a whole bunch of metrics, and we have tools or software that help you gather those metrics.” [00:06:56] “There is no one-size-fits-all approach to interpreting metrics.” [00:14:00] “A lot of these guides were designed with OSPOs in mind. They’re all useful to anyone who’s managing a project.” [00:18:45] “For metrics, the bigger the project, the more useful they are.” Spotlight [00:34:43] Richard’s spotlight is Johnny Wilson, an eBird reviewer. [00:35:23] Elizabeth’s spotlight is a project called Clocker. [00:36:19] Dawn’s spotlight is Nadia Eghbal’s book, _Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software, _and her paper, “Roads and Bridges: The Unseen Labor Behind Our Digital Infrastructure.” [00:37:18] Luis’s spotlight is Moodle, the OSS learning platform. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Elizabeth Barron Website (https://www.elizabeth-barron.com/) Elizabeth Barron LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabethn/) Luis Cañas-Diaz Website (https://sanacl.wordpress.com/) Luis Cañas-Diaz LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/canasdiaz/) Dawn Foster Website (https://fastwonderblog.com/) Dawn Foster LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dawnfoster/) CHAOSS (https://chaoss.community/) CHAOSS slack (https://chaoss-workspace.slack.com/join/shared_invite/zt-28p56bayt-67TRjdA4yJWQmUd4hCzULg#/shared-invite/email) CHAOSS Practitioner Guides (https://chaoss.community/about-chaoss-practitioner-guides/) Johnny Wilson-Ventures Birding Tours (https://www.birdventures.com/Johnny-Wilson.html) Clocker (https://abhishekbanthia.com/clocker/) Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software by Nadia Eghbal (https://www.amazon.com/dp/0578675862/) “Roads and Bridges: The Unseen Labor Behind Our Digital Infrastructure” by Nadia Eghbal (https://www.fordfoundation.org/work/learning/research-reports/roads-and-bridges-the-unseen-labor-behind-our-digital-infrastructure/) Nadia Asparouhova (Eghbal) Website (https://nadia.xyz/oss/) Moodle (https://moodle.org/) Sustain Podcast featuring Nadia Eghbal (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/nadia) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Dawn Foster, Elizabeth Barron, and Luis Cañas Diaz.

Guest Ben Cotton Panelist Leslie Hawthorne Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Leslie Hawthorn is joined by guest, Ben Cotton, the Open Source Community Lead at Kusari and former Fedora Program Manager. Ben discusses his career path, the importance of intentional program management in open source projects, and shares insights from his book, 'Program Management for Open Source Projects.' The conversation covers the evolution of engagement in open source communities, the impact of professionalization, and the challenges posed by AI in maintaining open source inclusivity. They also touch on the current trends of corporate involvement in open source. Press download now to hear more! [00:01:38] Ben mentions that he wrote his book to see his name on a cover but also explains the practical reasons for writing it, aiming to assist with the program management of open source projects. [00:04:42] Leslie mentions Karl Fogel’s book and discusses how engagement with open source often starts with a technical interest but deepens due to human interactions within the community. [00:05:28] Ben shares his background in synpotic meteorology and how an unexpected opportunity led him to maintain software for weather data visualization, which paved his way into system administration and eventually open source. [00:10:43] Leslie and Ben discuss the evolution of participation in open source projects, noting changes in the community’s structure, barriers to entry for newcomers, and the importance of fostering a respectful and inclusive environment for all contributors. [00:13:43] Leslie discusses the trend towards older participants in open source projects and attributes it to the professionalization of these projects and she expresses concerns about how the focus on AI development might limit open engagement in open source projects. [00:16:46] Ben remarks on the ease of using modern technology like Linux systems, contrasting it with earlier experiences that required more user involvement and customization. Leslie shares the potential benefits of AI, envisioning a future where technology adapts to individual needs, like assisting her visually impaired daughter. [00:23:07] Ben reflects on generational differences in technology use and stresses the importance of understanding the impact of our technological choices on future generations, especially concerning environmental sustainability. [00:27:24] Leslie brings up a question from Richard who was interested in hearing Ben’s view on program management in open source projects, and how it differs from the role of a developer who manages projects. Ben explains that roles in open source differ from corporate roles as individuals often wear multiple hats, switching between developer, designer, and documenter tasks. [00:30:15] Leslie reflects on the challenges of task switching and the potential for burnout among open source maintainers, particularly those without corporate support. Ben suggests that open source maintainers allow newcomers to handle low-risk tasks to prevent burnout and maintain engagement. [00:34:21] Leslie shares the grief she hears from friends about the typical career progression for developers into management roles, which may not align with their passions, emphasizing the importance of finding fulfillment in one's tasks. [00:35:24] Ben discusses the challenging corporate attitudes towards open source as economic conditions shift. Leslie expresses dissatisfaction with how corporations have historically invested in open source communities, suggesting that even when funding was plentiful, investment was inadequate. Spotlight [00:40:56] Ben’s spotlight is WeeWX. [00:42:44] Leslie’s spotlight is the great city of Berlin, Germany. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (email) (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@theuserismymom.com (email) (mailto:richard@theuserismymom.com) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Leslie Hawthorn X/Twitter (https://x.com/lhawthorn?lang=en) Leslie Hawthorn LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesliehawthorn/) Ben Cotton Mastodon (https://hachyderm.io/@funnelfiasco) Ben Cotton Website (https://funnelfiasco.com/) Ben Cotton LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/bcotton/) Kusari (https://www.kusari.dev/) Program Management for Open Source Projects by Ben Cotton (https://pragprog.com/titles/bcosp/program-management-for-open-source-projects/) Producing Open Source Software by Karl Fogel (https://producingoss.com/) WeeWX (https://weewx.com/) Berlin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Ben Cotton.

Guests Tracy Hinds | Ashley Williams Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes On today’s episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer is joined by guests, Tracy Hinds and Ashley Williams, to discuss the structural inequities and funding issues in open source. The episode delves deep into the misaligned incentives in the open source community, how regulatory and policy awareness is growing, and the potential for government regulations to create opportunities for open source maintainers. The conversation also covers the roles of various open source foundations, the impact of large corporations, and the need for more effective advocacy and compensation avenues for contributors. Tracy and Ashley announce their involvement in a working group focused on the European CRA legislation, aiming to bridge gaps between maintainers and policymakers. Press download now! [00:02:22] Ashley responds to Richard’s comment about everything being “totally screwed” in open source, but also points out misaligned incentives. She discusses the economic challenges of open source, such as the failure of sustaining efforts and its broader economic impact. [00:04:54] Richard mentions his other podcast “Open Source for Climate” which focuses on leveraging open source technology to combat the climate crisis. [00:06:10] There’s a discussion about potential regulatory and policy changes affecting open source, highlighting the need for a more equitable system. Ashley delves into economic theories relating to open source, particularly the concept of externalities and potential regulatory solutions, and upcoming regulations like the software bill of materials. [00:10:05] Tracy stresses the importance of involving open source maintainers in policy discussions to avoid misrepresentation by larger organizations alone. [00:11:47] Richard and Ashley discuss the representations of open source interests in policy making, particularly the dominance of large companies and the potential exclusion of individual maintainers. [00:16:04] Ashley critiques many language-based foundations for their minimal contribution to ecosystem, using Node Foundation as an example of one that has been beneficial due to its library ecosystem, notably NPM. [00:17:35] Tracy acknowledges the efforts of the Python Software Foundation (PSF) and Open Collective in fostering ecosystems that support paid contributors, emphasizing the importance of these roles for sustainability. [00:19:50] Richard notes that while centralized support like AWS services vouchers are helpful, these foundations do not effectively facilitate crucial conversations between maintainers and governments regarding open source regulation and standardization. [00:21:52] Ashley reflects on her experience as the Individual Membership Director at the Node Foundation, discussing the challenges of representing a diverse community within open source projects and foundations. [00:24:45] Tracy mentions her role as the first community seat director on the board, highlighting the evolution and ongoing adjustments in community representation within foundation governance. Also, she discusses the importance of involving individual maintainers in regulatory discussions. [00:27:47] Tracy talks about the economic opportunities in open source, facilitated by platforms like GitHub Sponsors and Patreon, which help reduce barriers for maintainers seeking financial support for their projects. [00:29:20] Ashley puts a small spin on Tracy’s optimistic view, noting significant opposition to the empowerment of small open source businesses, primarily due to corporate-dominated structures and antitrust-friendly environments in tech. She argues that open source has been consolidating. [00:33:29] Ashley fills us in on where you can follow her and their future discussions. She mentions a working group at the Eclipse Foundation focusing on CRA legislation, announcing an initiative to gather maintainer feedback on this legislation through a reading group. [00:35:42] Tracy mentions where you can find her online. Quotes [00:03:30] “We have open source – people who maintain open source don’t really make a lot of money from it. Attempts to sustain open source have largely failed.” [00:06:24] “Every OSS hacker is also incentivized to be a lawyer.” Spotlight [00:36:32] Richard’s spotlight is Jingna Zhang and her new social network, Cara. [00:37:25] Tracy’s spotlight is the book, Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software. [00:38:09] Ashley’s spotlight is exercising for mental health. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (email) (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) richard@theuserismymom.com (email) (mailto:richard@theuserismymom.com) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Tracy Hinds X/Twitter (https://x.com/hackygolucky?lang=en) Tracy Hinds Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/@hackygolucky) Sustain Podcast-Episode 135 featuring Tracy Hinds (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/hinds) Ashley Williams Twitter (https://x.com/ag_dubs) Ashley Williams LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleygwilliams/) Sustain Podcast-Episode 145 featuring Ashley Williams (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/williams) Open Source Initiative (https://opensource.org/) OSS for Climate Podcast (https://ossforclimate.sustainoss.org/) Eclipse Foundation (https://www.eclipse.org/org/foundation/) Jingna Zhang (https://www.zhangjingna.com/) Cara (https://cara.app/login) Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software by Nadia Eghbal (https://www.amazon.com/Working-Public-Making-Maintenance-Software/dp/0578675862) Sustain Podcast-Episode 51 featuring Nadia Eghbal (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/nadia) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Ashley Williams and Tracy Hinds.

Guest Yo Yehudi Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer is joined by Yo Yehudi, Executive Director of Open Life Science (OLS), who discusses the importance of sustaining open source and scientific research. They cover topics such as the transition of OLS from a life sciences focus to all sciences, the importance of sharing scientific work openly, and strategies for building inclusive and sustainable communities within open source projects. Yo also touches on the challenges of funding and supporting volunteer-driven initiatives, their approach to managing volunteer contributions, and insights from their doctoral research on open source project sustainability. Hit download now to hear more! [00:02:19] Yo describes OLS as an organization helping scientists to share their work globally, addressing the common issue of data loss when scientists leave academia without sharing their work. [00:02:56] The conversation explores how OLS has expanded to include all sciences, not just life sciences, and even fields outside of traditional scientific disciplines. [00:03:46] Yo critiques the traditional methods of scientific communication, highlighting the importance of sharing code and computational methods alongside traditional manuscripts. [00:05:55] Richard and Yo discuss the inclusive definition of a scientist, emphasizing curiosity and rigor over formal educational credentials. [00:07:28] There’s a discussion on OLS’s operational scope and strategic focus to prevent “scope creep,” emphasizing training, mentoring, and incubation projects. [00:09:57] Yo details the team size and funding strategy of OLS, mentioning how they transitioned from a volunteer-based to a funded organization. [00:00:00] Richard discusses the challenge of differentiating OLS for funding in a competitive space filled with similar organizations. Yo explains that OLS views similar organizations not as competitors but as potential collaborators, striving to differentiate by working together and clearly defining each other’s unique roles. [00:16:20] There’s a discussion on volunteer contributions and avoiding exploitation. [00:17:49] Richard and Yo discuss the challenges of altering the mindset around volunteer compensation and ensuring that project contributions are recognized and supported financially. Yo explains how OLS had adapted its approach to offering support, ensuring it meets diverse needs efficiently. [00:20:44] The conversation shifts to how OLS assists open source practitioners in publishing their work and code effectively, emphasizing the importance of flexibility and thoughtful sharing practices. [00:22:34] Yo highlights changes in OLS’s teachings, particularly focusing on equity and the experience of marginalized individuals in open source communities and talks about open access publishing. [00:25:13] Yo acknowledges that using platforms like GitHub and arXiv could be viable options for sharing scientific work, providing it’s done responsibly, respecting privacy, and not including sensitive data. [00:26:12] Richard draws a parallel between the challenges faced by scientists needing traditional publication credentials and open source contributors needing recognition for their contributions outside mainstream channels. Yo shares their personal stance on working within the capitalist system to bring about change. [00:28:45] Yo details their doctoral study focused on the longevity of open source projects, noting their findings that the metrics used did not predict project sustainability as expected. [00:32:23] Yo announces their recent successful defense of their doctoral thesis, emphasizing the importance of practical and community-focused approaches in open source projects. [00:33:36] Find out where you can learn more about Yo and their work online. Quotes [00:04:10] “Science is everything else we see.” [00:04:20] “Science uses a lot of code to create outputs, to visualize the work they’re doing, to understand things….code and computations come into science in so many different ways.” [00:18:53] “We had a very low uptake, which was surprising, and then we changed the way we asked people to ask for money, and we had more [people ask for funds].” [00:27:50] “The fact that open source really was founded pragmatically as a way to exploit free labor makes me uncomfortable.” [00:33:14] “Make sure you have functional friendly humans.” Spotlight [00:34:22] Richard’s spotlight is the book, _Joseph Banks: A Life _by Patrick O’Brian. [00:35:12] Yo’s spotlight is InterMine. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Yo Yehudi Website (https://yo-yehudi.com/) Yo Yehudi LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/yoyehudi/) Open Life Science (OLS) (https://openlifesci.org/) Sustain Podcast with host Abigail Cabunoc Mayes (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/hosts/mayes) Mozilla (https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/) [Joseph Banks: A life by Patrick O’Brian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JosephBanks:ALife)_ InterMine (http://intermine.org/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Yo Yehudi.

Guest Deb Goodkin Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes This episode of Sustain features host Richard Littauer having a conversation with guest Deb Goodkin, the Executive Director of the FreeBSD Foundation. They discuss the history, development, and distinct characteristics of FreeBSD as an operating system independent from Linux, and the foundational support provided by the FreeBSD Foundation. The conversation delves into the organization’s efforts in software development, security, community engagement, and plans to increase diversity. They also highlight the celebration of FreeBSD Day and Deb’s passion for maintaining and promoting FreeBSD. Press download now to hear more! [00:00:55] Deb explains her role and clarifies that FreeBSD is an independent operating system, originally derived from Unix developed at Bell Labs. [00:02:27] Richard mentions “BSD” stands for “Berkeley Software Distribution.” Deb confirms the existence of the BSD license and its relevance. [00:03:27] Deb admits it’s challenging to determine the number of FreeBSD users due to the nature of the BSD license but estimates hundreds of thousands based on device usage. [00:04:08] Deb distinguishes the FreeBSD Foundation from the FreeBSD Project, explaining the foundation’s role in supporting the project and the community through funding, development, and advocacy. [00:06:47] Deb compares the FreeBSD Foundation to other foundations like the GNOME Foundation and the Linux Foundation, emphasizing FreeBSD’s focus on software development and community support. [00:08:15] Deb reveals most of the foundation’s funding comes from corporate sponsors. She highlights the foundation’s increasing focus on security in response to global standards and government guidelines, mentioning FreeBSD’s involvement in security research and development. [00:12:45] There’s a discussion on the foundation’s approach to policy and standards, noting the limited resources but emphasizing the importance of corporate and community input in deciding priorities and projects. [00:15:52] Richard questions Deb about feedback mechanisms used to gauge the FreeBSD community’s concerns about security. He wonders about the participation dynamics. Deb details the communication channels within the FreeBSD community, mentions a recent community survey and what the responses revealed, and explains the 1% negative feedback. [00:19:56] The conversation shifts towards diversity and inclusion within FreeBSD, questioning the foundation’s strategies to enhance geographical and demographic diversity. Deb discusses the foundation’s efforts to increase gender diversity, mentioning initiatives targeting women, especially through involvement in computing events and universities. [00:24:05] Richard inquires about the prevalence of women in executive roles within open source foundations, sparking a conversation on gender dynamics in leadership and the intense dedication required in these roles. Deb shares her admiration for the passion and intelligence within the FreeBSD community and emphasizes the foundation’s commitment to supporting the project and its people. [00:26:51] Why is Deb so passionate about FreeBSD? She reflects on her deep connection with the community, her continuous learning in the field, and her desire to see the project thrive long-term. [00:29:06] Richard acknowledges the upcoming FreeBSD Day, and Deb shares how it showcases the uses of FreeBSD with a week of activities. [00:31:26] Find out here you can learn more about FreeBSD and Deb’s work online. {00:33:34] Richard asks about the FreeBSD logo, confused by the demon mascot. Deb clarifies that the mascot, named Beastie, is a playful representation related to the UNIX’s background processes (daemons) and not an actual logo. Spotlight [00:35:34] Richard’s spotlight is Philip Pullman’s Trilogy book series. [00:36:12] Deb’s spotlight is Michael Lucas’s book, Absolute FreeBSD. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Deb Goodkin X/Twitter (https://x.com/dgoodkin?lang=en) Deb Goodkin LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/deb-goodkin-b282924a/) FreeBSD Foundation (https://freebsdfoundation.org/) 2024 FreeBSD Community Survey is Here-FreeBSD Foundation (https://freebsdfoundation.org/blog/2024-freebsd-community-survey-is-here/) FreeBSD Foundation YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@freebsdfoundation2324) The FreeBSD Project (https://www.freebsd.org/) His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman-Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Dark_Materials) Absolute FreeBSD by Michael W. Lucas (no starch press) (https://nostarch.com/absfreebsd3) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Deb Goodkin.

Guest Julia Evans Panelists Richard Littauer | Amanda Casari Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer and co-host Amanda Casari talk to Julia Evans, a zine artist and programmer from Montreal. The discussion delves into Julia's journey in creating educational zines about technical topics like strace, Bash, and Git. Julia shares insights into her unique approach to making complex tools more accessible, how she uses feedback and beta readers to refine her work, and the importance of writing about stable technologies. The episode also touches on Julia's balance between art and sustainability, her collaborative work with her team, and highlights the significance of community-driven knowledge sharing. Press download to hear much more! [00:01:44] Julia explains her approach to creating zines, starting with the desire to simplify the usage of complex tools like strace. [00:03:14] Julia discusses her background as a programmer and the thematic focus of her zines, including making technical topics like Bash scripting more approachable. [00:04:54] Amanda praises Julia’s method of demystifying technical concepts through zines. Julia shares the challenges of creating zines on complex topics like Git, discussing how user feedback helps refine content. [00:07:14] Julia details the iterative process of creating zines, including using beta readers and feedback tools to enhance the clarity and usefulness of her guides. [00:11:50] The discussion shifts to how Julia selects topics for her zines, focusing on technologies with strong backward compatibility guarantees, ensuring that the content remains relevant and accurate over time. [00:15:59] Richard questions Julia about her preference for creating zines over other formats like video tutorials or classes, despite the potential reach and educational impact of those mediums. She explains her preference for zines, highlighting her affinity for print and writing, and he challenge with video formats. [00:19:13] Julia discusses her transformative experience at the Recurse Center, which greatly enhanced her understanding of computer systems, inspiring her to help others feel like “wizards” who fully grasp their tools. [00:21:39] Julia mentions co-founding “bang bang con,” a conference focused on short, insightful talks about programming, and confirms the availability of these talks online. [00:22:46] Richard asks Julia about “weird stuff” she likes to do with computers. She describes creating a DNS server that open shares queries, reflecting her passion for making the invisible aspects of computing visible. [00:24:43] Julia reveals how she funds her zine-making and educational endeavors through sales, which has allowed her to focus full-time on this work and even hire help to manage operations, enhancing sustainability and enjoyment of her work. [00:26:05] Julia reflects on the unpredictability of her success, expressing hesitation to offer advice on replicating her business model due to its unconventional nature. [00:27:47] Julia shares her approach to team building and sustainability, focusing on treating and paying her collaborators well to endure ongoing successful partnerships. [00:28:44] Find out where you can purchase Julia’s zines and find her online. Quotes [00:02:19] “I would have all these questions, what are people using this tool for?” [00:02:45] “I wanted to show people that this is not that big of a deal.” [00:06:26] “This is what I wish someone told me when I started using this tool.” [00:17:08] “I don’t usually want to learn a book’s worth of information about a topic. I’m a generalist.” [00:17:40] “My dream when learning about something is I just want to talk to someone who’s really, really smart for two hours and they’ll tell me everything I need to know.” [00:21:11] “You can do weird stuff!” [00:24:07] “I just thought it would be cool to make it, so I did.” [00:26:34] “Once I saw that I was working, I started to ask, is it sustainable? What do I need to learn about marketing to make it a sustainable business?” [00:28:29] “I try to be the last client to get fired. That’s my dream.” Spotlight [00:29:43] Amanda’s spotlight is she finally got to attend csv,conf,v8. [00:30:40] Richard’s spotlight is Rafik Draoui. [00:31:26] Julia’s spotlight is Atuin, a really nice way to search your shell history. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Amanda Casari X/Twitter (https://x.com/amcasari?lang=en) Julia Evans Blog (https://jvns.ca/) Julia Evans Mastodon (https://social.jvns.ca/@b0rk) Julia Evans X/Twitter (https://x.com/b0rk) Julia Evans GitHub (https://github.com/jvns) strace (https://strace.io/) Write Useful Books by Rob Fitzpatrick (https://writeusefulbooks.com/) Space Jam (https://www.spacejam.com/1996/jam.html) Recurse Center (https://www.recurse.com/) Sustain Podcast-Episode 146: Anjana Vakil on the Recurse Center, Outreachy, and Learning to Code (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/146) !!Con 2024 (bang bang con) (https://bangbangcon.com/) Gazouilli by Rafik Draoui (https://github.com/rafikdraoui/gazouilli) Wizard Zines (https://wizardzines.com/) Wizard Zine on strace (https://wizardzines.com/zines/strace/) New zine: How Git Works! by Julia Evans (https://jvns.ca/blog/2024/04/25/new-zine--how-git-works-/) Mess with dns (https://messwithdns.net/) Csv,conf,v8 (https://csvconf.com/) Rafik Draoui GitHub (https://github.com/rafikdraoui) Atuin (https://github.com/atuinsh/atuin) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Julia Evans.

Guest Max Jones Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this first ever cross-over episode of Sustain and Open Source for Climate, host Richard welcomes guest Max Jones, a data scientist and open source software developer who works at Carbon Plan. Max discusses the importance of open source in bringing about effective climate action, the role of Carbon Plan in building accessible data products and tools, and how being a nonprofit is advantageous for open source development. The conversation also touches on funding models for open source projects in nonprofits, including support from individual donors, grants, and collaboration with governmental and private entities like NASA and Microsoft. Additionally, Max shares insights into the development of tools for better visualization of climate data, the impact of open source on climate action, and the challenges of ensuring software and data accessibility and reproducibility. Press download now to hear more! [00:02:50] Richard outlines Max’s background in open source software development focused on climate action, including his leadership role at Carbon Plan. [00:03:31] Max discusses the mission of Carbon Plan, emphasizing the importance of transparency and accessibility in climate solutions. [00:04:23] Max describes his role in leading open source initiatives at Carbon Plan. [00:03:23] The conversation shifts to the practical aspects of running a non-profit focused on open source projects, including funding mechanisms such as grants from NASA. [00:06:58] Max explains one of their projects that involve tools for visualizing large-scale climate data to assist cities in planning and decision-making. He mentions how these tools are designed to be accessible to both scientists and the general public. [00:08:13] There’s a discussion about community engagement with their tools, noting that while many people reach out with questions or feature requests, there have been few contributions in terms of pull requests. [00:08:53] Max reflects on a collaboration with the Washington Post using their tools to inform public understanding of climate projections. [00:10:37] Max discusses the broader use of the tools by various agencies and the importance of transparency for reproducibility in research. [00:11:24] Max emphasizes the importance of reproducibility in open source projects across academia, industry, and the non-profit sector, and he acknowledges the challenges in ensuring that external users can engage with and reproduce their computational workflows. [00:12:56] The conversation shares insights into building a community around open source projects, particularly through involvement with the Pangeo project, which supports reproducibility and scalability in earth science workflows. [00:14:08] Max talks about the importance of finding common needs across different fields to promote broader collaboration and integration and mentions the Zarr project. [00:15:51] We hear about the size of the team at Carbon Plan which includes various roles. [00:16:28] Richard inquires about the funding landscape for open source projects at Carbon Plan. Max mentions the initial funding received through collaborations with NASA and Microsoft. He emphasizes the importance of ongoing government and agency support for both new tools and the maintenance of existing software. [00:17:51] Max talks about contributing back to open source communities, highlighting the practice of reporting bugs and engaging with upstream dependencies to improve tools. [00:18:38] The necessity of open source for transparency in climate solutions is discussed, contrasting with closed source companies that sell proprietary products to governments. Max argues for the importance of open source in ensuring accountability and better outcomes in climate solutions. [00:20:07] Max discusses the broader aspects of open resources, such as leveraging open standards, data, and hardware. He mentions collaborating with other organizations to tackle scalable computing challenges. [00:21:18] The conversation shifts to the environmental impact of computational work, with Max acknowledging the need for more efficient workflows and the broader implications of their organization’s focus, which includes understanding and adapting to climate change impacts. [00:24:15] Richard and Max discuss the challenges of making data sets public in a market-driven environment. Max emphasizes the role of nonprofits in pushing for greater transparency and the potential impact of their work on broader technological practices. [00:26:09] Finally, Max highlights a new project called OffsetsDB, and tell us where you can follow him and his work online. Quotes [00:03:44] “We believe that it’s necessary to have transparency and accessibility in our research, data, and tools in order to accomplish the mission.” [00:06:17] “I don’t think we can have great climate solutions unless they’re open and accessible, especially to the communities that are most impacted by these problems.” [00:11:47] “I would love to see more emphasis on reproducibility outside of academia as we push towards a more transparent model.” Spotlight [00:27:42] Richard’s spotlight is an article he read and liked, “The Brazilian Special-Forces Unit Fighting to Save The Amazon.” [00:28:07] Max’s spotlight is an open access perspectives article called, “The Origins of the Generic Mapping Tools: From Table Tennis to Geoscience.” Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/) Sustain OSS BlueSky (https://bsky.app/profile/sustainoss.bsky.social) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials) Max Jones GitHub (https://github.com/maxrjones) Carbon Plan GitHub (https://github.com/carbonplan) Carbon Plan (https://carbonplan.org/) Pangeo (https://pangeo.io/) Zarr (https://zarr.dev/) OffsetsDB (https://carbonplan.org/research/offsets-db) “The Brazilian Special-Forces Unit Fighting To Save The Amazon” (The New Yorker) (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/04/08/the-brazilian-special-forces-unit-fighting-to-save-the-amazon) “The Origins of the Generic Mapping Tools: From Table Tennis to Geoscience” by Paul Wessel (https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1029/2023CN000231) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Max Jones.