THE CLUB OF ROME PODCAST

From Financing Change to Changing Finance Today’s financial system extracts value from natural, human, and social capital while increasing the gap between rich and poor. This has significantly shifted the interaction between financial and economic systems from ‘finance supporting the economy’ to ‘the economy supporting finance’. In this episode, Till Kellerhoff, Program Director at The Club of Rome, speaks with Peter Blom, former CEO of Triodos Bank, member of The Club of Rome and chair of the Club of Rome Rethinking Finance Hub, about the urgent need to transform the financial system. They explore the transition from financing sustainable projects to changing the financial paradigm itself, the concept of financialisation, and how it impacts the real economy, ecological health, and social equity, as well as the possibilities and obstacles in achieving these transformations. Watch the video: Full transcript: Till: Welcome to the Club of Rome Podcast, exploring the shifts in mindset and policy needed to transform the complex challenges we face today. My name is Till Kellerhoff. I am Program Director of the Club of Rome and leading the Reclaiming Economics Impact Hub. I am very pleased to welcome today Peter Blom. Peter is the former CEO of Triodos Bank, which won the Financial Times sustainability bank of the Year award in 2009 and has become a global reference for value based banking. Peter also founded the Global Alliance for Banking on Values in 2009 and was the chair of the board in 2021.Alongside many other things, Peter is a member of the executive committee of the Club of Rome and Chair of the Rethinking finance Impact Hub, which aims to contribute to the evolution of the financial system so it can serve the transformation of our economy to achieve human well being within planetary boundaries. Welcome Peter. Peter: Thank you for being here. Till: Thank you for joining. And let's start with a general question on the Club of Rome to which you became a member in 2015. What motivated you to join the Club of Rome back then? Peter: Well, what motivated me to join was actually the invitation I got, and I was very surprised by that. And what I was surprised of that people said to me from the Club of Rome, you're relatively young. I just had then become 50, but anyway, you have a good track record, so we are very happy to have you in the club. So that was I felt very honored as an as a useful new member to the club, and really was happy that I could contribute to the to the thinking of the Club of Rome. What in that time, was not so exposed anymore as it was in 1973 when I read as a very young guy, this first book, Limits to Growth. But I've seen in the last, I would say, decades two decades, that there has been an increasing interest in the Club of Rome thinking. And that we are very doing very well in transforming this idea of limits to growth, so a more system change approach what is needed today and tomorrow. Till: Very good. And you mentioned the Limits to Growth, already published in 1972 by a group of MIT researchers, and the Limits to Growth spoke about the material limits to growth on a finite planet. Now your background is in banking and finance. What is the connection of finance and the financial system to this boundaries of growth on a finite planet? Peter: Yeah, actually, if you look back at this report, it's it's quite a linear approach. It's not a circular approach at all. It's a quite linear approach. But first we had to be more conscious and aware of the linear limitations of our system before we could really think about the circular approach we need today. And in banking, it's very important, and finance very important that you don't look only to the next two or three months, although that happens more and more in banking, but the next 5 to 10 years. So limits to growth, what is possible, how you can grow your business in a sustainable way, is highly relevant for banks. It was already in the 80s, when I started my career in banking, but it's even more today. So circular thinking, not only counting on growth, also considering that substitution from non sustainable business to more sustainable business is a very important aspect of banking today, and so I think the club of Rome's thinking about system finance is highly relevant for the financial industry, the financial sector. Till: And you mentioned already, one point of finance very often connected with is that it demands short term financial returns. Before we come to the broader systemic shifts of the finance system, is it even possible as kind of one player to change the game? So if the rules are in such game that they value short term returns, how easy is it to change that as one player in this industry? Peter: I think you cannot change yourself the whole system as one single financial institution. That is one of the reasons where, when we founded this Global Alliance for Banking on Values, I realize already, uh, 20 years ago, that we did quite well and grew very well as a bank, that just being one bank growing is not enough to change the system. Maybe with an alliance, we could contribute, and I think that is happening at the moment. At that I'm also very happy that the Global Alliance is so successful at the moment. But I think what you can do is stretch. You can say from getting even more short term. You can make it slightly more longer term, and can make clear that maybe it's not the next year you're only looking at, but the next five year, the next seven years, maybe the next 10 years. But you can never say, Well, I only look at the long term and not at the short term. Banking is looking at both. But many banks forgot about the long term and only looked at the short term. I think that's what we corrected, in a way, by the practices of Triodos Bank, and I must say, where many other banks also are looking at because they also can see that the system is much more vulnerable than it was maybe 20, 30, years ago, where you really couldn't count on linear developments what you really can't anymore today. Till: And we saw the vulnerability of the banking sector in the crisis, 2008,  2009. Do you think regulations were put in place that changed the system to the better since then, in the sense of the banks that were too big to fail, in the sense of the public having to buy certain banks out of that, did regulation and governance pick up on that issue? Peter: Let's stay positive. It helped. It helped to calm down things, to create bigger buffers for the banks, what was good. But they did not change fundamentally the system. So it was still possible to create more money, to create to grow faster the financial sector than the real economy, what, in itself, brings a lot of vulnerability into the whole system, including the society and what we having to deal with as people. So I do think it helped, and we learned from it, but not fundamentally. Fundamentally. We have to look much more closely to what is the role of banking and how can it? How can we make it much more structurally supporting the real economy, instead of making it less vulnerable and slightly more more stable compared to what it was in the past? Till: Yeah, and you mentioned that certain changes and improvements might have happened, but not on a systemic level. And I think that's one of the goals many Club of Rome members could subscribe to, right achieving something like well being for all within planetary boundaries from a systemic level. How helpful do you say now the financial system today is in achieving this goal, achieving well being for all within the planetary boundaries? Peter: Well, I think what is a very important notion in this whole financial debate, I would say, is that you can talk about finance change, and that's what we learned as banks. We really started to focus on different asset classes, made some parts of the economy greener. Also thought it was a very interesting new sector for the banks. But what we didn't look at as if on a financial system level, in change finance. How do we change the finance system altogether so we can more, structurally avoid that we are still financing brown assets and not green assets. How do we not continue to tweak a little bit the current system while we are not really addressing the more systemic questions? Till: It's not enough to finance change, but actually to change finance, and that was the title as well, of a paper you co authored last year entitled From financing change to changing finance. And one of the starting points there is that you speak about the financialization of societies. Could you briefly explain what that financialization is and maybe also how we got there? Peter: I think if you look at the volumes in the financial sector, you see an incredible growth where in the banking sector, in let's say, in the in the Western world, it was only a percentage of the gross national product. What we did in the financial sector, in banking, and now we have sort of three, four times gross national product. So the importance of the financial industry has become major. We depend on it with our pensions. We depend on it as businesses, citizens, for taxes and so forth and so on. So we financialized a lot of things, and we became dependent on it. And it's a little bit abstract. What do we mean by that? And I think many things we take for granted now and who function in the real economy sphere have been discovered by financial institutions, by asset managers, including CO2 carbon emission markets and biodiversity, and you name it, everything can be financialized and be brought to a market. And I think we have to think much harder about where a market is a good thing to help to allocate resources, and where markets only create more dynamics and more growth and actually create a problem because there is a market for it. So I think that is something, what the Club of Rome should do really make clear where markets work and where they don

Music, art, and media have always played powerful roles in social movements that created long-lasting societal change. Will the 21st century be any different? How can we inspire a generation to liberate their future actively? In this episode, Nolita Mvunelo is joined by Sishii, an award-winning singer and activist. Together, they dive into the role of art and music in inspiring young Africans to make a difference in the face of adversity. They question why more artists do not address the climate change crisis and other systemic issues while reflecting on the importance of art in raising awareness, inspiring action, and shaping the future.  Watch the video: Full Transcript: Nolita: We kind of need a revolution. Welcome to a special edition of The Club of Rome podcast exploring how we can work together across generations, across continents, across contexts, to mobilize action for a regenerative future. I am Nolita Mvnelo, Programme Manager of the Club of Rome, and in this episode, I had a conversation with someone I am proud to call a friend, Sishii. Actor, R&B, singer heard by millions, based in South Africa and changing the world. Against a backdrop of all the concerns we are facing, we discussed the role of art and music in inspiring young Africans to make a difference in the face of adversity. Thank you so much for joining me and joining me in my world of big picture and asking big questions and asking about the future of humanity and society, but also the future of us as Africans. Other people won't know this, but you're partly responsible for why we're doing this limited series, because you're the one who said, "Yo, you we always have these interesting conversations. Why don't we, why don't you sit down and try to have more conversations with more interesting people?" So I'm very grateful for you taking the time to chat with me today.  Sishii: Thank you for having me and thanks for doing it.  Nolita: I have, like, a handful of questions that also, again, are very reminiscent of some of the conversations we've had. The first one being, we always share a sense of, like, these concerns about the future of South Africa, the future of Africa, and our place in making a difference in those concerns.  Sishii: Yeah. I mean, a lot of the time the conversation is about leadership. It's about what we as young people are doing currently for, you know, our country, our continent, our world, and what we're trying to do to make things better for this world. And I'd say that the concern, it's like, there's so many facets of life, obviously, there's the economy, there's politics. I'm an artist, so there's the future of the arts. And we kind of cover a lot of those subjects, you know, in the conversations that we have, but I think in all of those subjects, the primary concern is what we're doing to make things better, because we recognize that something is, something's definitely wrong.  Nolita: When you say what we're doing, do you feel like there is enough opportunity to do things?  Sishii: I think a lot of our conversation is about how we feel like those who do have the opportunity to do something aren't actually doing anything, and those who don't have the opportunity to do anything are not even really considering what possible changes there could be. And in terms of what I'm doing, I'm just doing what I love, which is being an artist and inspiring other artists. Inspiring, you know, young people, according to them, also, this is not, I'm not saying I'm an inspiration. I have been called one on a few occasions. Yeah, inspiring African artists to pursue their dreams of being artists and inspiring Africans in my little corner of the world, which is South Africa, to just believe in themselves, to believe that they can come from circumstances that aren't necessarily great and make a change in the world and try and do positive in the world. So yeah, I think that's what I'm currently up to, and I hope I'm doing well at it.   Nolita: Do you think you have a sense of what does it take to inspire someone who feels that they don't have enough opportunity to rise to leadership or to make like, like groundbreaking, world changing art.  Sishii: It's weird, but like, as an artist, it's when your intention is to inspire, and you create from wanting a certain reaction, right from certain people, it doesn't really work as well as when you're being true to yourself, it doesn't work as well as telling your story in the best way you know how with whatever it is that you have and so what I've learned is this road for me, has just been about storytelling and using whatever resources I can find, gather people. This is a people's business, yeah, just essentially using all of that to tell my story. And in the process, I found that there are people who find that inspiring. Because if you have gone through hardship and you're talking about it, I'm pretty sure there's someone out there, at least one, I mean, there's billions of people in the world, and surely there's one, if you just stay true to who you are. So that's been my journey of what I've been trying to do, and I've found that I've inspired people in the process. But I didn't kind of start my journey saying, oh, I want to inspire people. I just wanted to express myself. And I found that a lot of people just want to express themselves, and they really struggle to do so.  Nolita:I think you've hit, like, a very important point on authenticity. Because, like, as I started a conversation, I said, welcome to my world, this, podcast. But also a lot of the things that the Club of Rome and the international contract are working on are very much concerned about the question of leadership, but leadership, specifically when it comes to climate change and sustainability and the types of decisions that people are making. You make a point about storytelling and also authenticity being important for how to bring forth that messaging and that voice, but very often, I feel that it doesn't land. But from your perspective, when it comes to like, the concerns about climate and the risks that we're facing, do you feel that it's being, the storytelling is being effective, and if you do what is effective about it? If you feel that it's not being effective, what do you think could be done to improve it, from your perspective as an artist?  Sishii: So, I've not found a lot of artists talking about climate change, it's interesting. I don't think we take it as seriously as it is. I really don't. And as a result of that, I don't see much art talking about that, and I don't see a lot of people my age talking about climate change or even really thinking about it. There are people who think it's a lie, there are people who think, and a lot of the time, you ask those people why they think it's a lie, they go, "Ah, it doesn't make sense". "Well have you read anything about it?" It's like, "No, I haven't actually read anything about it. I just, I just think it's a lie." So there's this weird kind of choosing of sides without having any information on which side you're choosing, but saying, okay, it seems like there's a side I have to choose, so I'm just going to choose the side without actually figuring out why I'm choosing said side. Yeah, I don't know if that answers your question.   Nolita:Actually, I feel like, as you're speaking, in my mind, I immediately thought, imagine a song about climate and like, a song about climate and like, would it hit like, the Spotify 1 million streams or Apple Music, you know, like, would it? Would it hit?  Sishii: I mean, the only person I can think of who ever did stuff like that was like, Michael Jackson.  Nolita: Oh yeah, heal the world or something.  Sishii: Yeah I mean, this is my kind of perspective on life in general right now, which is that I think we have become a lot more self-absorbed, not necessarily in a negative way, but a lot of the time it does show up negatively. And that when it comes to a change that inspires or affects more people than yourself, you know, or more people that do not actually include yourself, you know, we're not finding people not being interested in doing that anymore.   Nolita: When I imagine like a challenge that's as big as climate, right, which requires collaboration on such a broad level, but also requires collaboration across different cultures and perspectives. One of the best ways to share values and perspectives in culture is in our art, right? So the role of art in making sure that everyone is involved in this big group project is incredibly significant. But for some reason, we are struggling to imagine that we could get a million Spotify streams on a song about climate. So how do we make it, yeah, so how do we make it happen?  Sishii: Right?   Nolita: Is there something about maybe it's where from, where we understand the innovation comes from. Like, not to quote him, but we know who said, listen to the kids bro. And he was making a very specific point about the tastemakers are young people. In your creative process, is there any like consultation that you do about like with the people who listen to your music and care about your music? Do you ever try to get a sense of like, this is what is interesting. These are the topics people are listening to. Or is it very much like me and my creative process.  Sishii: I would love to say absolutely not. I would love to be an artist who's so, you know, self-sufficient that people's opinions don't actually matter to me. I do subconsciously, I definitely subconsciously digest what people are thinking about and talking about, and sometimes it does affect my music. I'm trying to make that less of a thing, now. I think I'm doing better at that, but it's really hard. I think the kind of thing about being an artist is like, you've really got to be self-sufficient. Don't care about what people think. Don't care about what people are talking about. It's very weird, because I believe that if this was, I don

Heatwaves and floods dominated the headlines in the summer of 2024. This lived reality of climate change is taking place against a backdrop of political shifts as far-right parties across Europe win shares of the vote that would have been unimaginable only a few years ago.     To uncover what is happening and explore what campaigners, politicians and businesses can do to ensure climate action in the run up to COP30 in Brazil in 2025, Philippa Nuttall spoke to Laurence Tubiana, CEO of the European Climate Foundation and a key architect of the Paris Agreement, and Sandrine Dixson-Declève, co-president of The Club of Rome and executive chair of Earth4All.  Sandrine and Laurence discuss the growing trend of right-wing politics in Europe and its impact on climate action, emphasising the urgent need to address social inequality and injustice in the energy transition. They highlight strategies for accelerating a globally just transition and call for a comprehensive reform of COP and climate governance to ensure effective implementation of the Paris Agreement.   Watch the video: Full transcript: Philippa: Welcome to the Club of Rome podcast exploring the shifts in mindset and policy needed to transform the complex challenges facing us today. I'm Philippa Nuttall, a freelance journalist and editor of Sustainable Views, and in this episode, we're discussing the road to COP30, which will be held in Brazil next year, and what needs to change to ensure that timely climate action is agreed and implemented. With me today I have Laurence Tubiana, CEO of the European Climate Foundation, and a professor at Sciences Po in Paris. Laurence previously chaired the Board of Governors at the French Development Agency, the board of Expertise France, and is best known for being France's Climate Change Ambassador and Special Representative for COP 21 and a key architect of the landmark Paris agreement. We also have Sandrine Dixson-Declève, co president of the Club of Rome and executive chair of Earth for All. Welcome to both of you today. Thank you. So Laurence, I'd like to start with you. In 2024 we're seeing heat records broken constantly. We've had many months where the temperatures are 1.5 degrees above pre industrial levels. And yet, in many countries, we're seeing people vote, including in France, for parties which whose vision is not aligned with with climate action, who want to slow or even halt climate action. And even if these parties are not, perhaps getting the support that they expect, that they're still there. And we've seen a swing very much to the right, and even the far right, in the European Parliament. Could you explain to us a bit what you think is going on here, and how much perhaps poor communication or mixed messages around climate change are responsible for what we're seeing?   Laurence: I think first of all, this trend towards the right-wing is, of course, now a trend that is distributed across many, many countries, including mostly in Europe, but not only in Europe, as we see in United States and other countries at the same time. It's a probably more nuanced evaluation, because you see in some countries where very much pointing to the right-wing has been showing other direction as well. And Poland is a good example. In Europe, we see the resistance and of Spain and the more progressive parties. So, it's a mixed bag, but you see that the polarisation is there. And I think there is a big element of understanding for that. We have inflation. We have the problem of security because, of course, of the invasion of Ukraine, and of course, these incredible energy prices that have damaged so much, not only to consumers accusative power, but as well the industry and the economy, but the sense that we are missing a very, very important social element in all this, that people feel marginalised. They feel not listened to. They feel that they are not represented. And I think that is a main issue for the climate community at large, the climate policy in general, that the social element should be the first entry point to this big transformation of society we are aiming at, and it cannot. It had been discarded. It has not been taken seriously enough so people legitimately think that they, and that a number of poles are signaling it, that they are paying for the reduction of emission that others are finally the origin of. And in particular, of course, the more affluent people, the higher middle class and even the higher income households that are finally polluting much more than they are, but they are paying the cost for it. So, I think this social dimension is certainly now that's a big moment to rethink all what we do in terms of climate policies. So, it's not only communications even because people feel the climate change impact, but they feel the solutions are not fair. And just one example, you pay a lot of tax on your gasoline when you drive, but then you don't pay any for the one who are flying all the time. So that, I think, is a justice element, and the social element is a key element, in my view, and that's why we see that in France, and the economic insecurity, if you add on that, that you have recommendation that you have to change your boilers or to go to electric vehicle you cannot even buy. And you know, it's a very interesting study recently by OECD, people who have access to mobility and collective transport care about climate change. The people who don't have access to public transport, they tend to deny and don't want to talk about climate change. So, you know, it's a problem of access and fairness much more than anything else. Philippa: Yeah, no, I think that's come out really clearly in the elections in terms of the pushback. We've heard a lot of this that it's not fair and people shouldn't be paying for the energy transition, especially poorer people in society. And how do you think, why do you think this message has not got through? I mean, the just transition has been mentioned as part of the energy transition, but perhaps not as a core point. And why do you think this message has got lost? And how do you think this can now be changed? Is this something that needs to happen at a national level, or is it something that can work through the international process? Laurence: Why are government afraid? Because, in a way, I must say, most government hasn't taken the issue of social fairness and justice really seriously enough. Because the trend on the evolution of the economy is a consensus on, you know, that finally, inequality was not a big issue. And so, the response to that, look at the reform of the tax system, for example, that we are now currently discussing at European level. The government doesn't dare to go in that direction for the moment. So, in a way, the only thing they can offer is, you know, more right-wing type of argument, like immigration is a big problem, where, in reality, social justice is a real problem. So, they don't want to reassess the model, and then they don't have the tools or the mindset or the philosophy, the political philosophy, that they can respond to the issue. So, the main, and that has been very, very evidently, even in France, the main response was to talk about security in the hard terms, police and, you know, control and immigration, when they should be talking about social justice. And that, in my view, a contradiction. If we continue doing that, we will never, never have an ambition climate action at home. So, it's a very crucial juncture point. And that's all, of course, all the battle we have in political terms in France these days. Philippa: Thanks Laurence. Sandrine, the Club of Rome and Earth4All, you've done lots of work around the importance of inequality and social justice. Do you agree with the conclusion that Laurence has come to, and how do you see that this discussion or these policies can now change?   Sandrine: I completely agree, and I think that what's, I must say, a bit disappointing is that we're in a situation, at least at the Club of Rome as saying we warned you and we told you, so if you look at the Limits to Growth, and if you look at the culmination of social and environmental tipping points, which were already pretty much drawn out in our scenarios in 1972 where we indicated that in the 2020s we would start to see these pressure points. And then I think the culmination, obviously, with the polycrisis, exactly as Laurence indicates, and the impacts have made it really difficult at this time to put in place and roll out the climate legislation and the climate implementation that we need. So coming back to the core of the issue, which is the inequality in the poverty issue, better understanding actually what leaders need to do at this time is fundamental for people like ourselves, people like Laurence trying to actually guide our policy leaders so they don't get caught with their pants or their skirts down, as we say, and really have the solutions that they need. And we have to remember that the yellow vest protest was truly a protest, both about wealth issues, because several weeks before, the wealth tax that had been proposed was actually eliminated, as well as a diesel tax issue. And when we look at most of the data that we have from a variety of different sources today, what we see is really interesting, and we've done an analysis of this also because we've been working directly with President von der Leyen's team on communications. One, most people, exactly as Laurence says, understand climate change is here, and they're suffering. They're ready to pay their fair share. The issue is, what's fair, when we see 2.8 billion windfall profits by oil and gas companies per day globally, when we see that actually, we don't and we're not able to pass a wealth tax, when we see that we continue to give subsidies to fossil energy, but not actually to renewables or industrial agriculture, rather than farmers who want to shift to regenerative agriculture.

As the world faces increasing inequality and environmental degradation, the Universal Basic Dividend (UBD) emerges as a promising idea for a more equitable and sustainable economic system. UBD proposes that the wealth generated from our shared resources, such as land, air and water, should benefit everyone, not just a few.  In this episode, Till Kellerhoff is joined by Ken Webster and Sarath Davala to explore the transformative potential of UBD. They discuss the ethical justification for sharing the commons, examine the challenges of implementing UBD and consider how UBD could help transition to a regenerative economy.   Tune in for a thought-provoking conversation on how UBD could pave the way for a fairer and more sustainable future.  Watch the video: Full transcript: Till: (0:00) Welcome to the Club of Rome podcast today on the Universal Basic Dividend. My name is Till Kellerhoff. I am Program Director at the Club of Rome and Program Lead of the Earth for All Initiative. We have two great guests today, and I'm very pleased to welcome Ken Webster, who is a visiting professor at Cranfield University, fellow at the Cambridge University Institute for Sustainable Leadership, contributing author of the latest report to the Club of Rome, Earth for All, A Survival Guide for Humanity, and lead author of three Earth For All deep dive papers on universal basic dividend. Welcome Ken. And we have with us today Sarath Davala, who is an Indian sociologist and president of the Basic Income Earth Network, amongst many, many other things, he co authored the book, Basic Income, A Transformative Policy for India. And he's also a contributing author to the Earth for All deep dive paper, unconditional cash transfers and t he five turnarounds, beneficiaries perspectives. Welcome Sarath. Let's dive, dive right into the topic universal basic dividend. And Ken, let's, let's start with you. I think many people have heard the expression universal basic income in the last years. It has been a prominent discussion, basically described as a regular cash payment to all members of a community without any conditions. Today we speak about the universal basic dividend. Maybe you can start explaining in a few words what what that is, and how it relates to the concept of the universal basic income many listeners will be familiar with.  Ken: (1:42)  Okay, thank you Till. The universal basic dividend is really a kind of basic income, because it is an unconditional cash transfer. It is regular, and it is, if you like, an obligation towards the fellow members of our communities. But the basic dividend differs in the use of the word dividend, rather than just income, and the dividend is a reward, if you like, for owning something, or co-owning something, or having a share of something. Now a basic dividend is connected to common resources. It might be the atmosphere, it might be the ocean, it might be forests, it might be the local Tool Lending Library. These are commons. These are resources which people can access and also as part of a community manage so the basic dividend is a reward, or a share of a reward, for resources which have been captured, enclosed is generally the word people use, and it's an ethical obligation to give people a share of these surpluses. In the economic language it's called economic rents. These are surpluses which are not required to keep the business going. So if some of our shared heritage has been captured, the idea is part of the gains from that should be put into a fund, and the benefits of the fund should feed back to everyone in the community, either nationally or in the grand scheme of things, globally,  Till: (3:23) Super thank you, Ken. And we will dive a bit deeper into the practicalities of all of that. And Sarath, you have worked for many, many years on the universal basic income and ideas around that, and we know that there are many, many different concepts on how to implement that. Do you feel like language matters a lot in this regard? We speak about universal basic dividend today, you have worked a lot on universal basic income. What's your approach towards that whole debate?  Sarath: (3:46) As long as the vision aligns, I think I would say, what's in a name that's not the point. I think philosophically, like Ken has just mentioned, philosophically, we come from the same pedigree. I mean, it's, it's to say that every individual on Earth is entitled. So I think we belong to the same blood group.  Till: (4:10) Super. Well, you mentioned the entitlement. Where does that come from? Why do you think people are entitled? Can you mention the obligation right in the context of the comments? Why do you think Sarath, we are entitled to receive something like a universal basic income?  Sarath: (4:24) Because I think natural resources, and all resources basically belong to people of the land, any given land, okay, so, and then the wealth that is created in any given society is a kind of, comes from several generations of contribution. So a few individuals cannot stand today at the end of the road and say that we made this, we made that money. So I think we have to really go to the roots of what wealth is and who owns it. I think those questions, these are the civilizational questions we are raising now. I'm glad to be alive at this time.  Till: (5:03) That's good, and it really comes to fundamental points, right? And can you argue that there's something like the commons that might be a little bit difficult for everyone to understand, and is it, is it right to say that it might be something in between private and public ownership, and that there is a category we need to we might have forgotten, is the dichotomy between private and common.  Ken: (5:25) That's the key point Till, I think that many people have forgotten or not been able to engage with the concept of the commons in more recent times, because you say on one side is either private ownership, which is very familiar. And equally familiar is state ownership. You know, public ownership and control, whereas in the middle there always used to be, if you like, meso scale or middle scale, social institutions. I've got a lovely little quote here about that from a writer called Dil Green. He said, commons are mesoscope social institutions, not micro, individual or macro, collective, but meso. But it's in the middle where life takes place. I like that, where we all live. The missing middle is the key, build commons. Now the commons are a set of resources people who have access and to those resources, and a set of rules by which those resources are used. The aim is to maintain those resources for all generations. This is what the commons if it was grazing back in the 14th century in England, or it was the use of the forests. It exists all over the world in different forms, but I think this is an opportunity to revive the middle, the missing middle, Green called it, the opportunity to look more at what we can do for each other. And it's rooted in the idea that the state of economic and technological development makes the adoption of openness, quoting again, cooperation and shared ownership and governance a more rational economic choice in meeting the needs and wants of humanity than one based on competition, artificial scarcity and the pursuit of profit. So I think it's an exciting area to recover the notion of the commons. But the very strong element of this is it's taking unearned income, it isn't making a firm any less competitive, and giving it as unearned income, as a dividend, in the language I use. And it also ties in with what Club of Rome's been very interested in, which is, how do we get prices to tell the truth? You know, we can't run an economy if environmental and social costs are exported with no comeback. But if we put the prices up on fossil fuels, etc, there's a lot of resistance to that, of course, because the poor suffer the most. So it does two jobs at once, there or three. It's ethically the right thing to do. It allows us to charge the real price for resource extraction and damage of the environment, and it gets the poor on side, because they feel more secure, and in this economy at the moment, what many millions of poor people are saying is, I don't feel secure. And everybody has perhaps begun to realize that you need a different way to approach this problem, and you need to bring economic security as well as social and environmental concerns to the fore, and I think it's really brave of the Club of Rome to make that point.  Till: (8:49) Thank you very much, Ken and you mentioned various aspects of this whole debate, and kind of a holistic approach towards the universal basic dividends, in the sense that it has an ethical component, it has a strong economic component in what is often now described in internalization of externalities. But Sarath, I mean,that's a debate many economists have today as well, right? Like we make certain products we don't want that have environmental harm more expensive, but that is usually in the form of kind of taxes that then go to the government. Why do you think it's important to have this dimension of cash transfer to citizens, which is different to kind of taxes where the government then decides where the money goes?   Sarath: (9:32)   Yeah, let me go back to the point that Ken was making. I would not take this very artificial binary of private versus state ownership. No, I think it is not a settled matter, we should go back a little and then say, how did we come here is a question we should ask now, like, for example, there is a does government really own all that it says it owns? Is a question. There was a big Supreme Court case in India where a group of people who were working asking the government to close down the mines. They said that people own the mines, natural resources, and government is only a custodian. Okay, so the Supreme Court gave it the judgment, which said that, yes, people are the owners of

The impacts of extreme weather events and climate crises are threatening many of the hard-won advancements in public health infrastructure across African countries. In this episode of the special series ‘We Kinda Need a Revolution’, host Nolita Mvunelo is joined by Saad Uakkas, a medical doctor and executive chair of the African Youth Initiative on Climate Change. They discuss the profound effects of nature crises on public health and the urgent need for systemic solutions. Together, they explore the importance of intergenerational leadership in building resilient and sustainable public health systems. This episode is part of a series highlighting the need for a New Generational Contract. How can we foster equity and mutual support between generations? This is one of the key questions being asked by The Fifth Element, an initiative from The Club of Rome and partners. To find out more visit: www.thefifthelement.earth Watch the video: Full transcript: Nolita: We kinda need a revolution. Welcome to this special edition of The Club of Rome Podcast exploring how we can work together across generations to mobilise action for a regenerative future. To get there, we need some systemic change, a revolution of sorts, maybe. I am Nolita Mvunelo, programme manager for The Club of Rome. And in this episode, we'll be diving into the topic of public health in nature crises. Joining us today is Saad Uakkas a Moroccan medical doctor and a youth engagement and empowerment specialist. We're seeing a growing frequency of nature crises across the world. More recently, the floods in Kenya have resulted in a loss of over 230 lives and 40,000 households displaced. And similarly, in 2022 on the east coast of South Africa, flooding claimed over 300 lives. These events are catastrophic and pose a serious threat to the lives of many with far reaching impact tearing away hard won gains in public health and infrastructure. So I turn over to you Saad, firstly, thanking you for joining us and also asking you to briefly introduce yourself. Saad: Dr Saad Uakkas here, I am the Executive Chair of the African Youth Initiative for Climate Change, which represents and unites African young people all over the continent. I'm also in the environment working group of the global Mental Health Action Network. So,  working on the intersection of climate change and mental health on the global level. Medical doctor by background, climate actor by passion, and young African from Morocco, so great to be here. Nolita: Thank you so much for joining us. So in January 2024, the World Economic Forum released  a report quantifying the impact of climate change on human health, which projects that by 2050, climate change could result in an additional 14.5 million deaths and 1.1 trillion US dollars in extra health care costs. With your extensive experience as an MD working with young people on climate change issues, what specific health challenges have you observed, that could contribute to such significant impacts in the next few decades ? Saad: I already started seeing that when I was a medical student seeing more respiratory diseases in the city I worked on Kenitra, which has really large industrial parts. And that was one example how pollution both air water pollution affected health of you know, the local population. So we have seen that we have see more people come in with also infectious diseases also that was something not only in Morocco, but all over the continents, you know, in the way that weather pattern change, and rains, patterns also change, this affects the habitats of vector-borne diseases. And also, when the weather is warmer, more insect-borne diseases can spread more easily and for longer periods. So this constitutes a huge threat for us in Africa, especially with all the neglected tropical disease with like infectious diseases like malaria, and those insects being able to live longer and in more places, you've been talking about disasters, you know, recently in Morocco, we had this earthquake, and you know, I remember people in Pakistan in Libya, with those floodings that they had in UAE, and you know, the houses that are being lost and the habitats and all those infrastructure, this usually has a direct impact on people's livelihood, on people's food security, and then the thing that I work most on, on people's mental health, and I can't tell you enough, how crucial that is, when you lose your house, when you lose your livelihood, your daily life. Here, we're talking, for example about farmers in the rural areas that don't have access to water to agriculture anymore. So livelihood lost, And they're obliged to migrate to find a new source of income. Those people usually they have huge mental health consequences out of that and with with psychologists with mental health professionals, we've been seeing that, you know, the need for mental health supports for people because of all the uncertainty because of all the impacts of climate change has been immense and then finally, you know, health systems and usually here we're talking about, you know, for example, the continents, we have hospitals and weak infrastructure, and especially in the rural areas, so the health system is not ready to cope up with the impacts of climate change. So when a disaster happens, resilience is not there. So usually you have a health system which loses electricity or which loses, you know, people lose access to hospitals, because of climates or disaster events, you know, when something related to climate change happens, people really get affected lose access to health, basic health care services, and it can affect them, you know, just losing access to medication can really have huge effects in your life if you're in a rural area. And then, of course, you have food security, you know, with the lack of water with all the effects of agriculture, food security is a very, very important one. So impacts of climate change on health, we can talk about a lot of aspects. And, you know, one thing is, recently, the World Health Assembly that happened in Geneva, recognize that and they voted for a resolution for the first time they adopted that in the World Health Assembly related to climate change and public health, recognising that today, climate change is the number one killer is the number one disease. And as you said the amount of lives that are threatened because of climate change is huge. So today, this is a very relevant discussion for all of us to be aware of this intersection, and to know what steps we need to take in order to, you know, take care of our health to improve the health system resilience, and prevent climate change in the future. Nolita: Thank you for such a comprehensive answer. It makes me want to ask a very specific question because of your background. Having worked as a medical doctor, you have a particular focus on healthcare. Additionally, you work closely with young people on climate change and climate resilience. Practically speaking, what interventions have you seen coming from the youth constituencies you work with in addressing climate-related disasters and healthcare? Saad: One concrete example is young people conducting research by being in the field and gathering data. That's step number one for me. I've seen many young people across the continent working at the intersection of climate and health, being on the ground, doing surveys, and identifying issues within their communities. For instance, we have a strong collaboration with the International Federation of Medical Students Association and the African Youth Public Health Association. These health-related youth groups are collaborating to conduct data gathering and research actions. Young people are working on improving food systems by promoting climate-smart agriculture and agroecology. This involves using natural seeds, reducing water consumption, and creating holistic ecosystems that minimize pesticide use. Such practices lead to more sustainable and healthier agriculture, which enhances food quality and, consequently, the health of local populations. Another area is advocacy. Young people are using health arguments to advocate for policies and decisions aimed at preventing and controlling climate change. Here, for example, I'm talking about people gathering data on pollution, the effects of industry, and the impacts of greenhouse gases on people's livelihoods. They then advocate together using media, joining the voices of health professionals, and pushing for policies to improve the situation. Additionally, engaging in dialogue with the private sector is crucial. This involves discussing how to prevent negative health outcomes, holding industries accountable, and pressuring them to reduce emissions. By including the private sector in the conversation, we can collaboratively work to decrease the health impacts of climate change. Policy action is essential in driving these efforts forward. One very good example is the youth group in Nigeria, Susty Vibes. They are doing great work in addressing climate change and mental health. One specific aspect they focus on is climate care for activists who are working within the space and constantly witnessing the negative impacts of climate change. They emphasize the importance of self-care for young people, as it can become overwhelming when facing such a large issue. Susty Vibes addresses climate anxiety among the youth generation, acknowledging that young people often feel that the problem is too big to solve alone. They stress the importance of taking breaks and having a support system to avoid being consumed by the enormity of the challenge. Susty Vibes provides this support system for young activists in Nigeria and West African countries, helping them care for themselves. Climate anxiety and self-care are crucial not only for climate activists but for everyone. In today's fast-paced world, where we strive to make a positive impact, it's essential