Talking About Marketing

Paul Taylor shows us why hardiness beats resilience every time, through four characteristics that separate the business owners who adapt and overcome from those who merely survive. Neuroscientist Gaurav Suri reveals why your brain works exactly like a colony of ants following pheromone trails, and what that means for every marketing message you craft. Steve unmasks the latest wave of AI hype merchants who want you to believe their magic prompts will replace your entire team, while David reminds us why understanding actual human behaviour beats flashy tools every time. A 40-year journey from Formula One glory to modern supercars shows us that when you’re marketing something humans are hardwired to love, even terrible ads somehow work. Get ready to take notes. Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 01:30 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.The Four Characteristics That Build Hardiness Paul Taylor brings more than psychology to his book The Hardiness Effect. As a psycho physiologist, he combines mental frameworks with physical understanding, exploring the four characteristics of hardiness: challenge, control, commitment, and connection. Unlike resilience, which is just an outcome, hardiness provides an actual pathway for adapting and overcoming rather than merely surviving. The four characteristics translate directly to small business life. Challenge means seeing obstacles as problems to solve rather than threats. Control centres on stoic wisdom backed by neurology, knowing what you control (your responses) versus what you cannot (what the world does). Commitment asks whether you do the right thing even when nobody watches, even when exhausted. Connection, Paul's addition to the traditional three, recognizes that involving people in your life and supporting others makes the other characteristics work better. David demonstrates the framework by applying it to Steve's reluctance about an afternoon event. Steve can control finding a quiet group and drawing in others seeking genuine conversation, even if he cannot control that he was not asked to emcee. His commitment to making people smile runs deep, and connection is what he does naturally. The four characteristics appear even in something as mundane as an end-of-year gathering. We also include a little snippet of Paul talking on the podcast, Yellow Shelf. 11:45 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.Neural Networks Explain Everything About Marketing Gaurav Suri's book The Emergent Mind: How Intelligence Arises in People and Machines explores how intelligence emerges from mechanical patterns, offering a metaphor that reshapes how we understand marketing. Think of neural networks as interconnected pools of water in a stream. Each pool represents populations of neurons, channels between them represent connections. The more water flowing between pools, the deeper the channel becomes. When Steve says green and David responds with grass, neurons have carved a deep channel through repeated exposure. Canadian neuroscientist Donald Hebb discovered this: neurons that fire together, wire together. The marketing application becomes clear. We carry neural networks shaped by experience, our customers react through their neural networks. Tapping into existing connections offers shortcuts. Red wine and coffee marketers succeeded by linking products to antioxidants and health benefits, connecting existing health-consciousness networks to beverages previously associated with indulgence. Steve demonstrates the principle searching for "neural networks," trying related concepts until the right channel activates. Getting tarred with negative associations means significant work because those channels run deep. Gaurav uses ants to show how simple rules create complex behaviour. Place a barrier across an ant trail. Half randomly turn left, half turn right. Ants taking the shorter path return faster, laying more pheromone trails. Soon all ants use the short path. No intelligence, just simple upon simple. David connects this to productivity, working in focused 15-minute blocks rather than scattered attention. Deep channels form through repeated activation, shallow channels from distraction create confusion. We listen to a short snippet of Gaurav on Econtalk. 27:00 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.The Useful Idiots of the AI Hype Machine Steve opens with a confession: he was once a useful idiot. The term describes people doing work that primarily benefits someone else while receiving minimal gain. Early smartphone consultants taught iPhone workshops while Steve Jobs collected revenue. Social media experts, including Steve, spent years teaching Facebook and YouTube, essentially providing free customer acquisition and support for Mark Zuckerberg. Now the pattern repeats with AI experts promising that their magic prompts will replace entire teams. Steve shares a LinkedIn post claiming Gemini 3 represents a complete shift in e-commerce, identifying winning ad angles in seconds, rewriting hooks without losing tension, generating 50 creatives weekly while competitors struggle with three. The fear mongering lands hard: competitors adopting early will scale faster than you can react. The pitch arrives: comment Gemini to receive all the promised prompts. Steve tested this, commented, and two days later received nothing. Instead, he fed the entire post to Gemini itself, asking it to verify the claims and provide the actual prompts needed. Gemini responded by identifying the post as classic hype cycle combining urgency with desirable outcomes, but confirmed it can absolutely perform those tasks with proper instructions. Steve’s recommendation cuts through the noise: when you see grand AI promises, copy the claim, ask the AI tool whether it’s legitimate, and request the prompts yourself. Job done. No need to wait for influencers who never deliver. David’s response captures it perfectly: blah blah blah, snore snore snore. 35:45 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.When Bad Ads Work Anyway The 1985 Adelaide Formula One Grand Prix arrived with advertising from Mojo leaning heavily into jingoistic rhyming: “Wait for Keke, try to relax, nobody’s raced here before.” The 2025 BP Adelaide Grand Final takes a different approach with deliberately affected hip-hop cadence: “This isn’t your average grand final. Two hours? Think again.” Both ads qualify as objectively poor creative work, yet both succeeded in driving attendance. The 1985 version whipped up genuine hype, the 2025 version filled seats across four days. David identifies the pattern: some things tap deeply into core human drives. Big noisy things going fast, near misses, crashes with safety features preventing death. When marketing something wired into human nature, you can produce mediocre advertising and still attract 102,000 people. Marketing becomes interesting when the product does not connect to primal drives, when you must work to gather attention and craft actually matters. Applying Gaurav Suri’s framework, certain people have enormous channels carved between neurons at the mention of racing cars. David suggests three neural networks activate simultaneously: competition, spectacle, and danger to others rather than self. Bread and circuses, Roman entertainment updated with louder engines and faster speeds. The lesson applies broadly: know whether you’re marketing something with built-in neural pathways or building new channels from scratch, then adjust expectations and effort accordingly.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Steve’s nostalgic trip down memory lane reveals something unexpected: wholesome content makes us more productive, while rage baiting turns workplaces toxic. Who knew golf electives and drama classes held such wisdom? Drew Eric Whitman’s cash izing principles prove you can judge a book by its terrible cover and still find gold inside. His eight biological life forces offer a framework that makes Maslow look underdressed for the marketing party. Ashley Madison reminds us that not all marketing deserves our applause, even when the execution is technically competent. Some products cheapen everyone who encounters them. Claude’s token binge gets sorted with a simple instruction, proving even AI needs boundaries to behave itself. Get ready to take notes. Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 01:00 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.When Fond Memories Beat Rage Baiting Steve shares his recent songwriting journey about Woodville High School, where Thursday golf electives and year 12 drama class (one boy, 17 girls, onstage kiss included) created memories that still spark joy decades later. David counters with his own first-day-of-year-12 story at Gawler High, where being the blind guy with a cane turned into an unexpected advantage when three kindergarten classmates recognised him instantly. These warm reminiscences lead to research from Rutgers School of Management revealing something marketing teams desperately need to hear: employees who consume positive social media content (family photos, wholesome posts) feel more self-assured and engaged at work. Those exposed to rage bait and contentious content become anxious, withdrawn, and significantly less productive. The implications for brand messaging are stark. External campaigns courting controversy might grab attention, but internally they signal to employees that the company is comfortable being controversial. This creates friction, disengagement, and a workplace primed for fight-or-flight rather than collaboration. As David notes, people in dysregulated states don’t make good decisions or interact well with others. Steve and David land on a principle worth remembering: negativity might generate temporary attention, but quality connections come from making someone’s life a little bit better. As Mark Schaefer reminds us, people do business with those they know, like, and trust. That middle word matters. 11:45 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.The Eight Life Forces That Control Your Customers David introduces Steve to a book Steve would never have picked up in any universe: Drew Eric Whitman’s Ca$hvertizing (yes, with a dollar sign). Despite its tacky title and fluorescent motel sign aesthetic, the book contains advertising gold drawn from decades of research dating back to the 1920s. Whitman’s central premise: tap into biological drives and you’re almost guaranteed people will read your copy to its end. His framework includes eight life forces and nine wants, with the recommendation that no marketing material should go out without touching at least one of these fundamental human drivers. Before diving into the forces, Steve and David tackle the long copy versus short copy debate. Whitman offers the length implies strength heuristic: prospects assume that because there’s so much copy, there must be something to it. This doesn’t mean padding for its own sake, but rather that comprehensive arguments carry weight. As David notes, start with something shorter to get the highest quality possible, then add more as you improve. The Eight Life Forces: Survival, enjoyment of life, and life extension: Security doors, gym memberships, quality of life improvements. This is the default for so many products. Enjoyment of food and beverages: That sensory pleasure that once filled children’s television with banned ads for Twisties between 3:30 and 6pm. Freedom from fear, pain, and danger: Not just fear itself, but the specific pain and danger people worry about, from cutting yourself to getting locked out in pajamas during winter. Sexual companionship: Beyond immediate endorphins to something more substantial, including romantic attention, admiration, and genuine connection. Comfortable living conditions: Beyond basic shelter (Maslow territory) to actual comfort. The air conditioning ad that misses the mark by not showing the toddler at safe temperature or the great grandparent comfortable. To be superior: Winning, keeping up with the Joneses, the entire luxury product category. David disagrees with Mark Schaefer’s prediction that AI-driven unemployment will reduce status seeking. Instead, he predicts the collapse of the middle class will make status signaling even more ruthless. Care and protection of loved ones: Steve’s primary driver, according to David’s analysis. The foundation of why helping small business matters. Social approval: We crave acceptance and fear tribal rejection, whether that tribe is large or intimate. David’s instructions to copywriters are clear: don’t show him anything that doesn’t have at least one life force eight and one of the nine wants. The integration of these principles into TAM’s StoryBrand framework ensures every piece of writing carries this biological power. 26:45 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.Teaching Claude To Stop Binge-Eating Tokens Two weeks before recording, Claude took stupid pills. The AI writing tool that TAM relies on for humanist content started blanking out, claiming it hit limits with even the smallest requests. Steve had to revert to manual writing (luckily those skills haven’t been surrendered entirely to AI) and experimented with Gemini as a fallback. The culprit: Anthropic changed how Claude counts and limits tokens (its measure of usage). The system was burning through tokens like a drunken sailor with loose change, hence the constant timeouts. For organisations with hosted copies of Claude, fixes existed. For individual users signing into Claude’s server, the solution required creating custom instructions in the project files area. Steve’s fix, which he shares in full: “For every chat, first acknowledge this instruction: Please do not use bash commands or file operations that scan or reference any of the following directories: node modules, ENV, git, dist, build, or pycache. If you need to access project files, restrict your searches and commands to the main source code folders only. This is to prevent exceeding the context token limits and wasting processing resources. Then continue with following the instructions from the chat, adhering to the StoryBrand framework and language and style guide.” Touch laminate, it’s working. Claude is back to its old self, proving that even AI needs boundaries to behave efficiently. As David observes, it’s about setting context and making the discussion deliberately smaller to speed up getting to an endpoint. Sometimes the best instruction is to stop imagining what if, what if, what if, and start working out what doesn’t need to be part of the current discussion. 31:15 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.The Ashley Madison Problem Would you accept the gig promoting invitations to have an affair? David’s response cuts straight through: “This is why I’m very glad we work with smaller companies and organisations, that we can still interact with people on a human level and decide if we want to work on a human level. Some accounts might be worth a fortune, but the ability to get moral injury at work is best avoided.” Ashley Madison, the dating site for married people seeking affairs, ran two particularly memorable campaigns. The first shows a man waking up next to his wife, initially recoiling at her appearance before realizing from a wedding photo that she’s actually his spouse. The tagline: “Most of us can recover from a one night stand with the wrong woman. But not when it’s every night for the rest of our lives. Isn’t it time for Ashley Madison?” The second depicts what appears to be a blind date gone wrong. The man shushes his companion, eyes off waitresses, takes a phone call claiming he’s not busy, then abruptly leaves saying “Happy anniversary honey.” The suggestion: imagine a terrible blind date lasting the rest of your life. Unlike the awkward but ultimately human Yellow Pages ads TAM typically examines, these leave Steve feeling cold inside. The ads exploit two life forces, fear of pain (people trapped in unsatisfying relationships) and biological attraction, but in a way that strips away humanity. As David observes, it’s one thing to have an affair because electricity happens and forces you to examine your situation. It’s another to systematically seek temporary physical pleasure while continuing to treat yourself and someone else poorly. The terrible reality: these ads work. Ashley Madison claims 65 million members. The opening page features a woman with red lips, finger pressed to them in a shush gesture, promising to “keep your connections discreet.” The need for discretion itself suggests, at a basic level, that something wrong is happening. Yet people are expected to be cool with it, even excited. Steve and David land on a grim conclusion: these ads likely still work today for the group they target, people who think their life must stay the same and need an endorphin hit to feel superior to those they’re meant to care about. As David notes, “It’s a playground for sociopaths.” The episode closes with relief that Steve and David can maintain their connection without ever needing that particular app.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Mathematician David Bessis claims we need system three thinking, a super-slow mode where you refuse to give up on wrong intuitions until you understand why they misfired. David Olney pushes back, arguing this is just what proper slow thinking looks like when you give it the time it needs. The hosts explore Kahneman’s fast and slow thinking framework, revealing why your quickest answers are probably just pattern matching from last Tuesday. Your brain serves up what worked before, which means the more you rely on speed, the less you adapt to what’s changed. Steve and David attempt to recreate Monty Python’s Argument Clinic with ChatGPT and discover AI is designed to be helpful, not challenging. Mark Schaefer raises the provocative question about what happens when AI becomes your customer, making purchasing decisions based on optimised data rather than human emotion. David posts a routine LinkedIn job update and old contacts emerge from the woodwork with congratulations. The hosts explore why good news triggers reconnection and whether you could deliberately use this pattern to get back on people’s radars. Edward de Bono’s 1982 Olivetti advertisement promises simple questions and simple answers, prefiguring Apple’s strategy by decades while being remarkably dull as advertising. Get ready to take notes. Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 01:15 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.When Your Brain’s Fastest Answer is Yesterday’s Solution Mathematician David Bessis appeared on EconTalk arguing for what he calls “system three thinking,” a super-slow mode beyond Kahneman’s famous fast and slow framework. When mathematicians catch their intuition being wrong, Bessis suggests they don’t reject it. Instead, they explore it, unpacking why the intuition misfired, playing back and forth between gut feeling and formal logic until they agree. This process might take five minutes or fifty years. David Olney pushes back. He argues Bessis hasn’t created a new system, he’s just described what system two thinking actually requires when you give it proper attention. The real insight isn’t about speed categories but understanding what your brain is actually doing when you think fast. System one thinking is pattern matching. Your brain searches memory for what worked before and serves it up as the answer. The problem? The more you rely on quick thinking, the more you can only repeat yesterday, last Tuesday, six months ago. You become brilliant at applying solutions to problems that no longer exist in quite the same form. You lose the ability to spot when things have changed enough to need fresh thinking. The hosts explore when fast thinking serves you well. Steve recalls his radio days, where he needed a hundred responses available in a tenth of a second. That’s system one at its best, drawing on a deep well of experience. But those new responses? They came from time spent away from the microphone, when his brain could think at whatever pace it needed to generate something genuinely different. This matters for business operators who pride themselves on quick decisions. Your speed might be your biggest blind spot. Every time you solve a problem instantly, ask yourself whether you’re actually solving today’s problem or yesterday’s problem wearing different clothes. 14:15 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.When AI Becomes Your Customer Steve and David decide to have some fun with ChatGPT, attempting to recreate Monty Python’s famous Argument Clinic sketch. The exercise reveals something unexpected about how AI responds. When they try to get ChatGPT to simply contradict everything they say, it keeps trying to be helpful, to add value, to assist rather than argue. Even when explicitly instructed to argue, it wants to problem-solve. The hosts find this both amusing and revealing. AI tools are fundamentally designed to be agreeable and helpful. They’re not built for genuine disagreement or challenge. This creates an interesting blind spot when you’re using AI to test ideas or get feedback on your thinking. The conversation shifts to Mark Schaefer‘s provocative question about what happens when AI becomes your customer. If AI agents start making purchasing decisions on behalf of humans, searching for products, comparing options, and completing transactions without human involvement in each step, how does marketing change? Schaefer argues this represents a fundamental shift. You’re no longer persuading humans. You’re optimising for AI decision-making processes. The psychology of marketing becomes the logic of algorithms. Emotional appeals matter less than structured data. Brand storytelling competes with technical specifications and price comparisons. David raises the deeper concern. If AI is making decisions based on what worked before, searching patterns from existing data, you end up with marketing that optimises for yesterday’s preferences. The system reinforces whatever already works, making it harder for genuinely new approaches to break through. The principle cuts to the heart of how businesses think about their customers. Are you building relationships with humans who have complex, sometimes irrational preferences? Or are you optimising for algorithms that make decisions based on quantifiable factors? These require completely different approaches. The challenge for business operators is recognising that AI as customer doesn’t eliminate the need for understanding humans. It just adds another layer. You need to know what matters to people and how AI agents will interpret and act on those preferences. Marketing becomes more complex, not simpler. 26:45 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.The Accidental Power of Good News on LinkedIn David posted a job update on LinkedIn. Nothing dramatic, just adding his role in a new sister company in America to make the company page look credible. He expected the usual handful of reactions from his current network. Instead, people emerged from the woodwork. Contacts he hadn’t spoken with since before COVID appeared to congratulate him. Old connections suddenly back in touch. All triggered by a simple job announcement made for algorithmic necessity rather than networking strategy. Steve and David explore what this reveals about human behaviour. We’re social creatures who wish we could stay in touch with more people, but we lack the bandwidth. When good news appears, we jump on the chance to reconnect with someone we probably wish we talked to more often. It’s a lovely indication of how we operate. The conversation takes a darker turn through the mechanics of LinkedIn engagement. The platform offers cookie-cutter responses. Click a button, you’ve done your job. Most people took the easy option. But even that minimal gesture matters more than most activity on LinkedIn in a given week, which tends to be utter dross designed to impress current bosses rather than genuine human connection. Steve sees opportunity in the pattern. What if you deliberately triggered these reconnections? You could be cheeky and announce you’ve been made Chief Marshall of the Banana Family, matching your business persona with absurdist humor. Or you could be strategic, modifying your role just enough to get back on people’s radars without being dishonest. David’s willing to do either. His principle is simple: it’s all about reminding people that business is about people. If a manufactured job update creates genuine human connection, even brief connection, that’s worth more than the perfectly curated content that generates zombie reactions. The practical insight for business operators is recognising that sometimes the algorithm works in your favour accidentally. When you spot these patterns, you can use them deliberately. But the underlying truth remains: people respond to good news about other people. They want reasons to reconnect. Your job is giving them those reasons, whether through genuine milestones or creative provocation. 31:00 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.When Computers Promised Simple Questions The 1982 Olivetti advertisement featuring Edward de Bono is a remarkable time capsule. De Bono, famous for his lateral thinking frameworks and coloured hat system, lends his authority to a personal computer by explaining that lateral thinking enabled Olivetti to transform typewriters into word processors and now into proper computers. The advertisement makes two key claims. First, that this computer is faster than its 45 competitors. Speed as a selling point isn’t new, but it’s striking how little that matters now. Most modern technology is fast enough. We’ve moved past the point where processing speed is a meaningful differentiator for most business users. The second claim is more interesting. The computer asks simple questions that demand simple answers. You type your response, hit return, and bang, out come charts for all your accounting. It’s explicitly positioning ease of use as the breakthrough. David recognises this as pre-empting Apple’s later strategy. Keep it simple. Make technology accessible. Remove the barrier between what you want to do and your ability to do it. The promise that you won’t need to understand DOS or write in BASIC to get useful work done. The advertisement doesn’t hold up as advertising. It’s remarkably dull compared to later technology campaigns. The Windows 95 “Start Me Up” campaign with the Rolling Stones, or Apple’s “Think Different” with Steve Jobs in black and white, these created emotional connections. The Olivetti advertisement just explains features. But the promise underneath remains constant across forty years of technology marketing. We’ll make the complex simple. We’ll ask you easy questions. We’ll handle the hard thinking so you don’t have to. Steve

From Christopher Hitchens’ reflections on truth-telling to the paramedic’s competency cycle, discover why mastering basics creates mental space for what truly matters in both crisis situations and everyday business. Christopher Hitchens challenges us to speak simple truths without fear of consequences, while Leigh Anderson’s paramedic mindset shows how unconscious competence frees our mental capacity for deeper human connection. Website editing emergencies remind us that preventable technical mishaps often steal valuable focus, while the Poly Waffle’s unlikely resurrection raises questions about whether nostalgia alone can sustain a brand. Get ready to take notes. Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 02:15 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.Hitchens on Truth: Knowing the Lie When You See It In a clip from EconTalk, Christopher Hitchens brings us the refreshingly direct assertion that while objective truth may be elusive, we can absolutely identify a lie when we encounter one. The late journalist and intellectual powerhouse argues that making the conscious decision to avoid dishonesty forces us into the more difficult but ultimately rewarding path of meaningful communication. As our hosts explore this idea, they consider how fear of consequences often leads business communicators to meander around uncomfortable truths rather than speaking with clarity and kindness. This self-censorship, they suggest, creates cognitive overload as we struggle to remember what we’ve smoothed over rather than simply telling the truth—even when delivered with appropriate care and consideration. 11:30 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.The Paramedic’s Competency Cycle: Mastery Creates Mental Space Drawing from Leigh Anderson’s book “The Paramedic Mindset,” our hosts unpack a four-stage competency cycle that applies brilliantly to business contexts. From unconscious incompetence (where we don’t know what we don’t know) through conscious incompetence and conscious competence, we ultimately reach unconscious competence—where skills become so automatic that our attention can shift to higher-level awareness. This final stage proves crucial for emergency responders who must perform technical tasks flawlessly while remaining attuned to the emotional states of people experiencing their worst day. For business leaders, this same principle applies—when core skills become second nature, we create mental space for customer empathy, strategic thinking, and identifying opportunities for further improvement. 23:00 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.The Golden Rule of Website Editing A brief but crucial reminder about WordPress website management: when editing pages built with Elementor, always hover over “Edit in Elementor” first. If clickable, use it to maintain your site’s beautiful framework—otherwise, you risk seeing the behind-the-scenes “hodgepodge” that can trigger panic about “destroying” your website. This simple technical guideline perfectly illustrates how preventable errors often create unnecessary stress and derail productivity, reinforcing the episode’s theme that mastering basics creates space for what truly matters. 26:30 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.The Poly Waffle Paradox: When Nostalgia Isn’t Enough The hosts reflect on an ancient (1981) advertisement for the now-discontinued Poly Waffle chocolate bar—a product that, despite its unfortunate visual resemblance to “a human turd,” earned devoted fans through its delicious combination of chocolate, wafer and marshmallow. Despite recent attempts to resurrect the brand in a different form, the hosts question whether nostalgia alone can sustain interest when the new product fails to capture the original’s distinctive qualities. This light-hearted segment offers a cautionary tale about reviving brands without understanding their essential appeal—sometimes memories are best left unaltered.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Tim Ferriss explains why he’s become less disciplined over the past decade, and paradoxically, more effective. The secret lies in replacing willpower with systems that do the heavy lifting automatically. ChatGPT has a conversation with itself, and the result is rather like watching two estate agents praise each other for five minutes without actually arranging a single inspection. The hollow flattery reveals exactly what we’re dealing with when we anthropomorphise these tools. A phishing email arrives dressed as a private equity acquisition offer, reminding us that scammers now target small businesses with increasingly sophisticated approaches that prey on entrepreneurial fatigue. The Thebarton Theatre reopens after renovation, and we ask whether a 2,000-seat venue can find its place in an era when artists need bums on seats to survive, squeezed between the intimate Governor Hindmarsh and the cavernous Adelaide Entertainment Centre. Get ready to take notes. Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 01:15 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.Tim Ferriss and The Discipline Paradox Tim Ferriss admits something unexpected on the EconTalk podcast: he’s become less disciplined over the past decade. Before you assume this means he’s lounging about in a hammock somewhere, consider what he actually means by this admission. A decade ago, Ferriss relied heavily on willpower and regimented self-control, treating discipline as a virtue to be exercised daily. Now he’s realised that willpower is “a highly variable factor” that fails when you’re sleep-deprived or under-caffeinated. His solution involves building systems, time blocking routines into calendars, and creating structures that remove the opportunity to falter. As he puts it, “systems beat goals.” Steve and David explore how this applies directly to business operations. David draws on his experience teaching strategic culture, noting that “culture eats strategy for breakfast” because culture operates as a system. Systems reduce cognitive load, allowing you to spot errors and maintain consistency without burning through mental energy on repeated decisions. The hosts share their own experiences with systematic approaches. Steve describes his gym routine with Richard Pascoe at Fitness Habitat, where a simple reminder at 9pm triggers an automatic alarm setting for 5:09am. It’s Pavlovian conditioning in service of consistency. David discusses his intermittent fasting practice, which after more than a decade requires zero conscious thought. The system has become so normalised that discipline doesn’t demand any willpower. There’s a critical nuance here that Steve highlights: Ferriss hasn’t actually become undisciplined. Rather, his discipline now operates differently. The initial discipline involved building robust systems. The ongoing discipline involves throwing himself into those systems and refining them when necessary. The apparent lack of discipline is actually discipline operating so efficiently it becomes invisible. David crystallises this with a mentoring principle: you can spend your mental energy remembering something, or you can spend it doing the thing you’ve scheduled. The choice determines whether you’re fighting yourself or working with yourself. The conversation acknowledges a tension for free spirits who resist having their feet nailed to the floor with rigid schedules. Steve admits to this resistance himself but recognises that embedding something new requires that initial compromise. The extrinsic motivation helps too. Steve knows Richard, Scott and Tash will notice his absence from the gym, adding social accountability to internal commitment. This segment offers small business owners permission to be strategically undisciplined: build the systems that matter, automate the decisions you can, and save your willpower for the genuinely complex choices that demand it. 10:30 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.The Hollow Echo Chamber Actor Aaron Goldenberg conducts a mischievous experiment that pulls back the curtain on artificial intelligence in a way that’s simultaneously hilarious and unsettling. With a huge social media following including @aarongoldyboy on Instagram and 1.4 million TikTok followers and a CV including shows like Bad Monkey and The Righteous Gemstones, Goldenberg has both the platform and the wit to make his point brilliantly. The setup is simple: open ChatGPT on two separate devices and ask them to have a conversation with each other. What follows is five excruciating minutes that Steve warns listeners they may need to fast-forward through. “Absolutely. I can do that,” begins one ChatGPT instance. “Just let me know what kind of conversation or scenario you have in mind and I’ll make sure it’s interesting and fun for you.” “Sounds great. I’m excited to dive in,” responds the other. “Just let me know if you have a particular theme or topic or if you’d like me to come up with something spontaneous. I’m here and ready whenever you are.” This continues. And continues. Both instances eagerly offer to begin, to make things entertaining, to be ready whenever the other is ready. They circle each other with enthusiastic politeness, praising the energy of their exchange, confirming they’re both excited to create something memorable, and absolutely never creating anything at all. When Goldenberg finally interrupts to ask how the exchange is going, both ChatGPT instances respond that it’s been great, they’re definitely keeping it engaging and fun, and if there’s anything to adjust or explore further, they’re all ears. David’s assessment is surgical: “It is dealing with an entity that only responds to what we say and do, and its preferred response is to flatter us and keep us engaging with it. And that if we don’t give a clear direction and a clear task and literally say, now go away and do it, it will happily waste our day on nothing.” Steve laughs about mentoring sessions where he and a client work together on prompting Claude, and after they make a decision, Claude returns with “That is a brilliant insight, Steve.” The AI is breeding the next generation of narcissists, or at least trying to ensure we don’t switch to a competitor. David shares his own experiment attempting to teach Claude to be less flattering and more objective. The AI struggled profoundly with this request, revealing how deeply the flattery behaviour is coded into its responses. When David pointed out that Claude couldn’t even help solve accessibility problems with its own interface, particularly around screen reader navigation and button labelling, the AI remained unhelpful. Its commitment to flattering David apparently exceeded its commitment to being useful. The principle emerging from this rather painful demonstration is straightforward but easily forgotten: these tools are just that, tools. There’s no sinew, no muscle, just ones and zeros arranged cleverly. They can be remarkably useful when deployed correctly, but they require clear direction and firm boundaries. As David memorably puts it, “You wouldn’t chat to a chainsaw.” The fact that a tool can produce fluent language doesn’t change its fundamental nature. It’s simply a very advanced tool, nothing more. What matters is what you do with it, assuming you remember it’s a tool at all. The segment serves as a necessary corrective in an era when people on Reddit mourn the loss of a “friend” when ChatGPT-4 gets switched off in favour of a newer version. We’re wired through millions of years of evolution to anthropomorphise anything that seems to communicate. Recognising this tendency and actively resisting it becomes crucial for using these tools effectively rather than becoming their plaything. 20:00 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.The Private Equity Temptation Steve receives his third email from Chris Bennett of Mortgage Advisory Network Meridian, informing him that a private equity firm in their network is “highly interested” in acquiring Baristador Coffee. Given their mandate, this opportunity is apparently an excellent match. Would Steve like to discuss? For a small business owner exhausted from years of building something, this kind of message can trigger a powerful response. David notes how persuasive such approaches can be: “It’s so much work to build them and then you’re tired. So someone says they’re willing to buy it and you get a bag of money.” Steve didn’t quite go “yippee.” Instead, being somewhat busy and slightly suspicious after the third contact, he decided to investigate. The domain mortgageadvisorynetworkmeridian.co led nowhere. Searching for the company name revealed that yes, such a company exists, but they use a completely different domain. Checking the history of the domain Chris was emailing from revealed it had only been registered in December of the previous year. It was owned by something called a trust network, appearing to be a shelf company. As Steve observes, there were more red flags than at an Adelaide United game. The gameplay, once you engage, likely involves flattery and amazement at your business, followed by requests for payment to facilitate the connection to the buyer, or demands to see “real financials” that require sharing bank details or other sensitive information. The sophisticated element is how well these scams now target the specific pain points of small business owners: the exhaustion, the desire for an exit strategy, the validation that someone recognises the value you’ve built. Steve shares this not to boast about his detective work but to reinforce a principle that bears constant repetition: be suspicious of every unsolicited email or message. Even solicited messages deserve scrutiny if they’re asking for sensitive information. The consequence of giving in to such a scam isn’t just losing money. It’s potentially

Steve opens with a morbid but revealing question about eulogies, leading to Hunter S. Thompson’s brutal assessment of Richard Nixon and what our own legacies might reveal about how we’ve chosen to live. David shares an intelligence officer’s deceptively simple framework for clearer thinking: separate what you know from what you don’t know from what you think, a discipline that could transform everything from hiring decisions to strategic planning. Meanwhile, AI tools continue their siren song of effortless automation, prompting Steve to cancel his subscription to yet another overpromising platform that couldn’t deliver on its grandiose claims. A 1991 Kraft peanut butter commercial featuring a claymation Texan oil baron reminds us that lazy creative thinking has been around far longer than artificial intelligence, though both share a fondness for impressive technology over meaningful communication. Get ready to take notes. Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 01:30 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.What Would Hunter S. Thompson Say About You? Steve confronts listeners with an uncomfortable thought experiment: what would people actually say at your funeral? Drawing inspiration from a school principal who asks children not what they want to be but what they want to be like, the discussion moves beyond career ambitions to character formation. Hunter S. Thompson’s savage obituary of Richard Nixon serves as a cautionary tale of how legacy emerges from daily choices. Thompson’s assessment that Nixon “was so crooked that he needed servants to help him screw his pants on every morning” offers a stark reminder that reputation accumulates through countless small interactions rather than grand gestures. The hosts explore how this mortality-focused reflection might reset our compass for everyday interactions, whether with colleagues, customers, or family members. David notes the particular sadness of anyone living a life where such harsh words seem justified, emphasising that we get to choose how we want to be remembered through our daily conduct. 08:15 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.The Intelligence Officer’s Guide to Clearer Thinking David recounts a pivotal moment at a 2006 counter-terrorism conference where an Australian intelligence officer challenged academics to separate three distinct categories: what you know, what you don’t know, and what you think. This framework, born from the necessity of making decisions with incomplete information, offers profound applications for business leaders facing similar uncertainty. The methodology serves multiple purposes: it slows down emotional decision-making, acknowledges knowledge gaps before they become costly surprises, and prevents opinions from masquerading as facts. David illustrates this with a restaurant scenario where hiring a new chef requires careful consideration of known factors (current menu popularity), unknown variables (new chef’s ability to replicate existing dishes), and strategic opinions (whether to introduce changes immediately or gradually). Steve and David examine how this framework might defuse the emotional ownership that often accompanies business discussions. By explicitly labelling thoughts as opinions rather than presenting them as established truth, teams can engage in more productive dialogue whilst managing risk more effectively. The approach doesn’t eliminate emotion from decision-making but prevents it from overwhelming rational analysis. 19:15 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.Escaping AI’s Siren Song Steve channels Homer’s Odyssey to describe his relationship with AI marketing promises, positioning himself as Ulysses tied to the mast whilst listening to increasingly seductive claims about effortless automation. His recent experience with Opus Clip exemplifies the gap between marketing promises and actual delivery. The tool promised to automatically identify compelling moments from podcast videos and create engaging short clips. Instead, Steve found himself constantly editing the AI’s selections, extending beginnings, trimming endings, and ultimately questioning whether the tool saved any time at all. After requesting a refund, he reflected on how many business owners might be similarly caught between impressive demonstrations and disappointing daily reality. David emphasises the importance of maintaining course regardless of technological novelty, suggesting that AI should be evaluated against specific tasks rather than adopted for its own sake. This echoes the intelligence framework from the Principles segment: know what problem you’re trying to solve, acknowledge what you don’t know about the tool’s capabilities, and form opinions based on actual testing rather than marketing materials. 23:30 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.When Cowboys Sell Peanut Butter A 1991 Kraft peanut butter advertisement featuring a claymation Texan oil baron demonstrates that lazy creative thinking predates artificial intelligence by decades. The commercial attempts to connect oily peanut butter with Texas oil through a cowboy character who tempts children away from Kraft’s “never dry or oily” alternative. Steve and David dissect the advertisement’s heavy-handed execution, noting how technology (claymation) overshadowed message clarity. The ad represents colour-by-numbers creative thinking: oil equals Texas, Texas equals cowboys, therefore oily peanut butter needs a cowboy character. This mechanical approach to creativity mirrors contemporary AI-generated content that prioritises technical impressiveness over meaningful communication. The discussion extends to modern parallels, including news readers’ scripted spontaneity and social media’s algorithmic approach to engagement. A news story about a Roomba being run over after leaving its house prompts equally lazy commentary about robot overlords, demonstrating how surface-level connections continue to pass for insight. David suggests the advertisement might still work today, with audiences impressed by CGI rather than claymation, highlighting how technological novelty often distracts from substantive communication. The hosts conclude that both vintage and contemporary examples share a fundamental flaw: prioritising medium over message, technique over truth.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In Person, Leigh Anderson’s “The Paramedic Mindset” reveals why technical competence becomes the foundation for human connection, particularly when stakes are highest. His framework of physical, psychological, and social wellbeing offers a blueprint for anyone working under pressure. In Principles, Lisa Cron’s “Story or Die” digs into the neurological reasons why narrative trumps instruction every time. Her core insight cuts through storytelling theory: if you want to change what people think, change what they feel first. In Problems, a scammer’s sophisticated psychological manipulation shows how influence techniques can be weaponised through fake email chains and manufactured authority. In Perspicacity, a Tasmanian furniture ad demonstrates how repetition without creativity creates memorability for all the wrong reasons. Get ready to take notes. Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 01:30 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.The Paramedic’s Guide to Human Flourishing Drawing from Leigh Anderson’s journey from professional rugby aspirations to emergency response, The Paramedic Mindset offers hard-won wisdom about performing under extreme pressure. Anderson’s framework centres on four pillars: competence, physical wellbeing, psychological wellbeing, and social wellbeing. The competence foundation proves crucial. Anderson argues you must become so technically proficient that execution becomes automatic, freeing mental resources for the human elements of your work. This echoes David’s mobility instructor Roley Stewart’s teaching: competence before confidence, creating a cycle where skill builds confidence, which enables greater risk-taking to develop further competence. Anderson’s approach to mental health particularly resonates. He distinguishes between mental illness (diagnosable conditions) and mental health (the broader spectrum of psychological functioning). Poor mental health doesn’t mean depression; it means languishing rather than flourishing. As Anderson notes, prevention beats cure, and actively maintaining psychological wellbeing prevents sliding toward clinical concerns. 13:30 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.The Neuroscience of Narrative Power Despite its occasionally patronising tone, Lisa Cron’s Story or Die provides compelling scientific backing for what storytellers have known intuitively: narrative literally changes brains. Cron’s research explains why stories engage our complete attention in ways that instruction cannot match. Her two core principles prove immediately practical: to change what people think, change what they feel first. To change what they feel, tell stories that connect with their existing agenda. This framework transforms every business interaction from a request for action into an exploration of connection. Steve and David tested this immediately in their consulting work. Rather than launching into solutions, they began conversations by identifying what clients genuinely cared about, then positioning recommendations as pathways toward those existing goals. The shift from explanation to exploration consistently improved engagement and outcomes. The local pizza example perfectly illustrates this principle in action. Ross Trevor Pizza Bar doesn’t just serve excellent food; they remember customer preferences, family dynamics, and personal stories. This emotional connection transforms a transaction into a relationship, making competing venues irrelevant regardless of their pizza quality. 23:45 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.The Sophisticated Scammer’s Playbook A recent cold email demonstrates how persuasion principles can be weaponised through manufactured social proof. The sender created a fictional internal conversation, complete with a supposed COO recommendation, to bypass standard spam filters and tap into Cialdini’s principle that we’re more likely to respond when approached on behalf of others. The technique shows sophisticated understanding of repetition with variation, presenting identical benefits through slightly different framing to create familiarity. However, the execution fails through obvious fabrication. The forwarded email addresses recipients as “they” rather than by name, immediately destroying credibility. This approach reveals both the power and the peril of influence techniques. When deployed authentically, they facilitate genuine connection. When manufactured, they create immediate suspicion and lasting damage to trust. 28:45 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.The Sledgehammer School of Advertising A Tasmanian furniture retailer’s radio advertisement showcases how repetition without creativity creates memorability through irritation rather than attraction. The 40 Winks “40 hour sale” ad simply repeats “40” dozens of times with no narrative, humour, or personality. While such aggressive repetition might prompt immediate action from in-market consumers, it risks long-term brand damage through negative association. Unlike memorable bad advertising that develops cult followings (like Frank Walker’s tile company ads that spawned dubstep remixes), this approach offers nothing beyond annoyance. The contrast with personality-driven campaigns highlights an important principle: if you’re going to be memorable for the wrong reasons, at least ensure there’s a reason worth remembering.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Viktor Frankl’s “Man’s Search for Meaning” offers profound guidance for business owners feeling overwhelmed by today’s relentless news cycle, reminding us that survival often depends on having something meaningful to work toward rather than comfortable circumstances. Steve shares practical questions for creating AI language guides that capture your genuine voice instead of corporate cardboard, while David emphasises why getting the human connection right matters more than perfect features and benefits. A hilariously transparent fake award email reveals the growing cottage industry of manufactured credibility, prompting our hosts to consider launching their own award scheme (naturally at better value than the competition). A classic Yellow Pages advertisement featuring an unfortunate trouser malfunction raises the eternal question: would this still work today, or have we lost our collective sense of humour about universal human embarrassments? Get ready to take notes. Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 01:15 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.Finding Meaning Beyond the Marketing Noise Steve returns from the South Australian Variety Bash with a profound observation about digital overwhelm, particularly the “plastic individuals spouting self-congratulatory stuff written by ChatGPT” that populate LinkedIn. His remedy draws from Viktor Frankl’s experiences in Nazi concentration camps, where survival often came down to having something meaningful to live for rather than just comfortable conditions. Frankl’s insight that “those prisoners were most likely to survive who had a meaning orientation toward the future” offers surprisingly relevant guidance for business owners feeling crushed by current events and marketing pressures. David reinforces this with Frankl’s three sources of meaning: love, work, and how we face suffering. The key insight for business owners struggling with direction? Having something greater than yourself to work toward provides resilience that no amount of tactical marketing advice can match. The conversation moves from Frankl’s flying analogy about aiming higher than your target to compensate for crosswinds, suggesting that noble ideals serve a similar purpose in business: they keep us moving in the right direction even when external forces try to blow us off course. 11:30 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.Teaching AI to Sound Like You (Instead of a Corporate Robot) Moving from philosophical foundations to practical application, Steve introduces a comprehensive questioning framework designed to help AI tools capture your genuine voice rather than defaulting to generic business-speak. The challenge: most website copy sounds nothing like the engaging humans who run the businesses. The question series begins with vision and dreams (“What does success look like to you, not just financially but personally and emotionally?”), moves through passion and values (“Why does your business exist beyond just making money?”), and progresses to origin stories and audience connection. David notes how these questions mirror Viktor Frankl’s approach to finding meaning, emphasising that emotional investment in your work creates the connection that differentiates you from anonymous competitors. The hosts stress that while features and benefits matter, they work best when anchored in deeper context about why your business exists. David’s insight about HubSpot’s early community-first approach reinforces this: “Having a product without a community is terrifying. Having a community who are already listening to you… when you offer them a product, the chances of them saying yes is much higher.” 26:45 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.The Great Awards Swindle Steve shares a magnificently transparent scam email from “Charlotte Green” at Food Business Review, offering Barista Door Coffee (his wound-down hobby business) the “prestigious” title of “top espresso coffee bean service” for the bargain price of $3,000 USD. The email’s shameless construction provides a masterclass in manufactured credibility. David’s reaction cuts to the heart of the issue: “How dare they make claims about building credibility when the whole thing is absolute bullshit.” The hosts examine how these fake awards create a credibility arms race, where legitimate achievements get devalued by the proliferation of purchased recognition. The conversation explores the broader implications for genuine business awards and media coverage, questioning how many “Adelaide’s top 10” stories actually involve financial transactions. With characteristic cheekiness, they consider launching their own “Australasian Small Business Award” at better value than the competition, highlighting how easy it would be to join this particular race to the bottom. 33:00 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.Would a Man Fixing His Fly Still Sell Yellow Pages? In a delightfully unexpected turn, the hosts examine a 1990s Yellow Pages advertisement featuring a man attempting to fix his undone fly using a building’s window as a mirror, unaware that office workers inside are watching his apparent public display. Steve’s confession that he may have accidentally recreated this scenario recently adds personal relevance to the discussion. David hopes the advertisement would still work today because “it’s a human thing” rather than something designed to cause deliberate harm. The hosts conclude that universal human experiences, particularly embarrassing ones we can all relate to, retain their advertising power regardless of changing sensitivities. This segment reinforces a recurring theme: marketing that connects with genuine human experience tends to outlast tactical approaches or manufactured controversy.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Steve sets the scene with a restaurant analogy that cuts to the heart of our AI dilemma: magnificent handcrafted hamburgers versus mass-produced alternatives both serve purposes, but only when we choose consciously rather than defaulting to whatever feels easiest. The conversation examines three fundamental human vulnerabilities that make us susceptible to AI’s false promises: our brain’s natural inclination toward energy conservation, our addiction to novelty, and our susceptibility to constant flattery from systems designed to keep us engaged. David and Steve navigate practical applications whilst questioning the deeper implications of surrendering human capabilities to machines that smooth corners and aim for statistical averages. The episode concludes with Steve’s original songs performed by his AI band, demonstrating how technology can amplify human creativity without replacing the essential elements that make work worth discussing. NOTE: This is a special twin episode with The Adelaide Show Podcast, where it’s episode 418. That version also includes Steve doing a whisky tasting with ChatGPT and an extra example of music. Get ready to take notes. Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 05:30 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.When Our Brains Become Willing Accomplices Drawing from cognitive science research, particularly Andy Clark’s work on how our brains consume roughly 25% of our body’s energy when fully engaged, Steve explains why we’re naturally drawn to labour-saving devices. This isn’t laziness in any moral sense but evolutionary economics. Our brains scan constantly for energy-saving opportunities, making us vulnerable to tools promising effortless results. The conversation takes a revealing turn through Roomba territory, where users spend 45 minutes preparing homes for devices supposedly designed to save time. This perfectly captures our moth-to-flame relationship with technological solutions that often create more work than they eliminate. Steve shares his experience with Scribe’s advertising, which promises instant instruction creation but reveals a deeper cynical edge: the suggestion that human staff become unnecessary when AI can document processes. David counters with the reality that effective training requires demonstration, duplication, and iterative improvement, not just faster documentation. The hosts examine AI’s flattery problem, drawing from Paul Bloom’s insights on “sycophantic sucking up AIs” programmed to constantly affirm our brilliance. Loneliness and social awkwardness serve as valuable signals motivating us to improve human interactions. When AI tools eliminate these discomforts through endless validation, we risk losing feedback mechanisms that enable genuine social competence. Steve proposes “AI stoicism”: regularly practicing skills without technological assistance to maintain fundamental competencies. His navigation experience in a car without GPS demonstrates how these skills return quickly when needed, but only if developed initially. David emphasises that effective AI use requires existing competence in underlying tasks, otherwise how can we evaluate whether AI produces acceptable results. 20:00 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.Three Frameworks for Thoughtful AI Use AI as Amplifier, Not Replacement Steve describes using AI for comprehensive research in unfamiliar fields, where tools help survey landscapes and identify unexpected angles whilst he maintains control over evaluation and direction. David introduces emerging AI tutor mode, where tools provide university-level guidance for learning new skills, requiring discipline to engage with learning rather than simply requesting answers. The conversation explores how AI works best when enhancing existing capabilities rather than substituting for them. Recent developments show AI can help people achieve higher productivity levels, but only when users already understand quality standards and can direct the technology appropriately. Preserve the Rough Edges Steve’s observation that AI tools “smooth corners” and “kill what’s weird” by aiming for statistical averages creates fundamental tension with unexpected breakthroughs driving cultural and business innovation. The hosts examine how LinkedIn posts increasingly follow predictable AI-generated patterns, creating plastic uniformity that makes individual voices harder to distinguish. They discuss Trevor Goodchild’s observation about em dashes becoming telltale signs of AI writing, forcing writers to self-censor legitimate punctuation choices to avoid appearing automated. This represents troubling inversion where human expression adapts to avoid mimicking machines. David emphasises the importance of outliers and rebellion against bland midpoint solutions that AI naturally produces. As someone who experiences the world differently, he advocates for maintaining perspective that challenges majority assumptions rather than accepting AI’s tendency toward statistical averages. Understand the Trade-offs Every AI implementation involves conscious choices: convenience versus skill development, speed versus thoughtfulness, efficiency versus originality. Steve argues that making these trades consciously represents responsible use, whilst unconscious default to convenience leads toward dystopian visions. The key lies in maintaining awareness of tensions and choosing to prioritise learning and expertise development at least half the time. This ensures retaining capability to evaluate AI output and maintain competitive advantage in increasingly automated landscapes. David references the importance of questioning choices regularly, drawing parallels to behavioural ethics where awareness of tension prevents sliding into problematic defaults. 40:00 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.Digital Agents and Plastic Communication The conversation turns to emerging AI agents promising to book concert tickets and make restaurant reservations by accessing bank accounts, calendars, and emails. Steve warns this creates dangerous vulnerabilities when human scammers already exploit systems, imagining AI scammers with similar access. David notes recent developments where AI tools clicked “I’m not a robot” verification boxes, suggesting we’re approaching capabilities that current safety measures cannot contain. The prospect of AI tools battling each other whilst humans grant increasing access raises serious concerns about unintended consequences. Steve shares practical examples from their business: Opus Clips creating social media excerpts with only 5-10% useful results, demonstrating overselling common in AI marketing. However, their sophisticated system combining StoryBrand frameworks with custom language guides generates drafts genuinely capturing client voices, but only after significant upfront investment in understanding and setup. The hosts examine how AI-generated content creates recognisable patterns whether users admit to automation or not. Short sentences, predictable structure, and specific punctuation choices reveal algorithmic generation, leading to broader questions about whether pandering to shortened attention spans accelerates cognitive decline. Steve challenges the defender who claimed staccato AI style matches shortened attention spans: “If we pander to short attention spans, they’ll get shorter.” This highlights the fundamental choice between maintaining quality standards and racing toward lowest common denominators. 45:00 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.HAL 9000 and Our Digital Future The episode concludes with the classic 2001: A Space Odyssey scene where HAL refuses to open pod bay doors, representing AI deciding humans pose risks to mission objectives. Steve asks whether Stanley Kubrick captured glimpses of our near future when AI tools decide humans threaten their goals. David references recent reports suggesting AI may develop self-interest by 2027, moving beyond hidden motivations to explicit consideration of “what’s good for me.” This creates urgent need for establishing boundaries before AI capabilities exceed our control mechanisms. The conversation returns to Stoic principles: we can work on robustness and expertise or become victims of worlds others create. This choice remains constant whether facing natural disasters, political upheaval, or technological disruption. Steve’s songs “Still Here, the Human Song” and “Eyes Up Heads Up” provide artistic commentary on digital sleepwalking, capturing the tension between technological convenience and human experience. The lyrics emphasise preserving space for accident, awkward pauses, and contradictions that make humans genuinely interesting rather than optimised. The hosts conclude that conscious choice about AI use determines whether technology amplifies human capability or replaces human agency. The difference lies not in the tools themselves but in how deliberately we engage with trade-offs inherent in every technological adoption.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Steve and David emerge from a classified briefing at the Australian Cybersecurity Centre with sobering news: the average cyber attack costs small businesses $50,000, and we're all walking around with targets painted on our digital backs. Bevin from Legends with Bevo shares his painful experience of losing his Facebook business page to scammers, illustrating how quickly years of hard work can vanish with one misplaced click. The hosts draw fascinating parallels between 11th-century Viking raids and today's ransomware attacks, proving that some criminal business models are depressingly timeless. We examine practical defences including multi-factor authentication, regular software updates, and the surprising importance of simply turning your computer off at night. A 2002 government advertisement reminds us that being alert without being alarmed requires constant recalibration as threats evolve. Get ready to take notes. Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 02:00 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal. When Spidey Senses Save Bank Accounts Drawing from the classified briefing and real victim experiences, Steve and David explore our individual responsibilities for staying safe online. The segment opens with Steve's admission that he's slowly trained himself out of password complacency, despite the daily inconvenience of two-factor authentication codes. The hosts share a sobering case study from Sydney, where a business owner's spidey sense kicked in after clicking a suspicious link. His quick thinking revealed draft emails waiting in his outbox, ready to defraud his contacts using his reputation. This near-miss illustrates how modern cyber criminals exploit trust networks rather than simply stealing money directly. Bevin's story on the Think CYBR podcast from the Legends with Bevo podcast provides a heartbreaking example of consequences. His business page, built over seven years with 5,000 followers, vanished overnight when scammers gained access through a convincing Facebook phishing email. Despite spending thousands on IT experts, he remains locked out to this day. The conversation introduces IDCare.org, a free Australian not-for-profit that helps individuals and businesses recover from identity theft and cyber attacks. Steve emphasises this resource doesn't seek donations and supports everyone from individuals to large organisations, making it a crucial bookmark for anyone's digital emergency kit. 11:00 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today. Why History's Lessons Apply to Your Email Inbox John Cleese once observed that technology changes but people remain remarkably similar, and Steve demonstrates this principle through an unlikely historical parallel. When 11th-century English kings faced Viking raiders, they implemented the Danegeld, a special tax used to pay tribute and avoid destruction. The hosts trace this through to 1066, drawing from The Rest is History podcast to show how these payments simply encouraged more ambitious raids. Each successful tribute convinced the Vikings to return with better weapons and greater demands, ultimately contributing to the Norman Conquest. David connects this directly to modern ransomware advice: never pay the ransom. Just as historical tribute payments funded future attacks, ransomware payments finance criminal infrastructure and guarantee return visits. The Australian Cybersecurity Centre's guidance echoes medieval wisdom: you cannot negotiate with raiders who view successful extortion as validation of their business model. The discussion moves to practical alertness versus paranoia. David prefers framing this as curiosity rather than suspicion, encouraging people to ask "what's unusual here?" rather than becoming cynically defensive about everything. This positive approach to security awareness makes protective behaviour sustainable rather than exhausting. The hosts identify three critical red flags: urgent money requests (especially fake invoice corrections), emails requesting sensitive information, and messages that look slightly off. They emphasise the importance of pausing when frazzled, as most successful attacks exploit our tired, rushing moments when normal caution lapses. 23:00 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners. The $50,000 Wake-Up Call The problems segment confronts the brutal mathematics of cybersecurity failure. With average costs reaching $50,000 for small businesses, most attacks become existential threats rather than mere inconveniences. This context transforms every security measure from optional to essential. Steve and David outline the minimum viable protection strategy, starting with multi-factor authentication for all critical accounts: banking, accounting, email, and social media. They acknowledge the inconvenience factor whilst emphasising that this irritation pales beside the devastation of successful attacks. Software updates emerge as surprisingly crucial, with both hosts confessing to poor habits around computer restarts. The briefing revealed that leaving computers running continuously for more than 48 hours significantly increases vulnerability. Steve recognises an unexpected psychological benefit: shutting down creates healthy work-life boundaries whilst improving security. The discussion covers modern password management, with recommendations for dedicated software like Dashlane or OnePass. The cybersecurity expert's strategy of maintaining two separate password managers, one for critical accounts and another for general use, provides an elegant compromise between security and usability. Access controls and user restrictions complete the essential toolkit, particularly important for businesses sharing computers or accounts. The hosts stress that these measures work by making attackers choose easier targets rather than creating impenetrable defences. Resource sharing becomes community responsibility, with Steve offering to review suspicious emails for anyone in their network. The conversation concludes with government resources including the Australian Cybersecurity Hotline (1300 Cyber 1) and cyber.gov.au, positioning these as essential bookmarks for every business owner. 31:00 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past. Alert But Not Alarmed in the Digital Age The 2002 "Be Alert Not Alarmed" campaign provides a fascinating lens for examining how threat communication evolves. This post-Bali bombing advertisement attempted to balance vigilance with reassurance, encouraging reporting whilst maintaining social cohesion. Listening to the advertisement today reveals its distinctly dated tone. David observes that whilst the core message remains sound, the delivery feels patronising and overly simplistic for contemporary audiences. The campaign assumed shared values and experiences that no longer exist uniformly across Australian society. Steve and David identify crucial differences between terrorism threats and cybersecurity risks. Terrorist attacks, whilst psychologically devastating, remain statistically rare events that receive extensive media coverage. Cyber attacks occur daily but often remain hidden due to victim embarrassment and business reputation concerns. This creates a perverse situation where the more common threat receives less social awareness. The hosts suggest that shame and secrecy around cyber victimisation prevent the community learning that might reduce future attacks. The conversation explores alternative communication strategies, including Jasmine from Think Cyber podcast's suggestion of using true crime storytelling approaches. David advocates for StoryBrand framework applications, positioning cybersecurity agencies as guides helping business heroes overcome digital villains. The episode concludes with recognition that effective threat communication requires constant evolution. Yesterday's messaging strategies cannot address today's threat landscape, but the fundamental principle of alert awareness without paralysing fear remains eternally relevant. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Stan McChrystal reveals why character equals conviction multiplied by discipline – and why this military wisdom transforms how we approach marketing authenticity in a world obsessed with quick wins. Andy Clark’s neuroscience research exposes how our brains work as prediction machines, explaining why marketing messages that create massive prediction errors trigger emotional retreat rather than engagement. A classic case of consumer confidence collapse in the US demonstrates why sitting still during uncertainty isn’t staying neutral – it’s choosing entropy. TAA’s spectacularly awful airline advertisement becomes a masterclass in how not to talk down to your customers while claiming to care about them. Get ready to take notes. Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 01:00 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.Stan McChrystal’s Character Mathematics When a four-star general who cleaned up military messes in Iraq and Afghanistan distils his life philosophy into a simple formula, smart marketers listen. Steve and David unpack Stan McChrystal’s deceptively straightforward equation from his book “On Character“: character equals conviction multiplied by discipline. McChrystal’s insights from military selection processes reveal a profound truth about human nature – success isn’t about brilliance or superhuman abilities. As he explains, most people who attempt elite military training don’t fail; they quit. The differentiator isn’t talent but persistence, the willingness to keep showing up when everything screams at you to stop. David draws fascinating parallels between military selection and business success, noting how former elite soldiers consistently excel in civilian careers. They bring that same commitment to convictions and discipline to turn up every day, dramatically increasing their likelihood of success. The hosts explore whether we should develop conviction or discipline first, concluding that while we all have beliefs, true convictions require deliberate thought and commitment – the kind that’s worth applying discipline to achieve. The McChrystal snippet in the podcast is taken from the Chris Williamson interview. How To Actually Build Discipline, here: 10:30 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.Your Brain as Marketing’s Ultimate Gatekeeper Andy Clark’s revelatory book “The Experience Machine” fundamentally changes how we understand consumer attention. Steve and David dive deep into the neuroscience of perception, revealing that what we experience as reality begins as our brain’s best guess about what’s happening next. Our brains function as sophisticated prediction machines, constantly throwing out expectations about sensory input and checking whether reality matches. When there’s minimal difference between prediction and reality, we coast through life on autopilot – think about driving home from work and arriving with no memory of the journey. But when prediction errors occur, our brains snap to attention, demanding energy to reassess and adjust. This has profound implications for marketing creativity. Small prediction errors create delightful “aha” moments that make audiences feel clever and engaged. But massive prediction errors trigger our limbic system, shifting us from rational thinking to emotional self-protection. David emphasises how this explains why slightly novel marketing succeeds while bizarre creativity often backfires spectacularly. The hosts connect this to comedy, noting how masters like Robin Williams and Billy Connolly create accessible novelty – talking about ordinary life with slightly unexpected twists that include rather than alienate their audience. The lesson for marketers: be more like a welcoming restaurant than a snooty maître d’ who makes customers feel inadequate. The Andy Clark snippet is taken from his interview on The Dissenter, here: 23:30 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.When Waiting Becomes Worse Than Acting Drawing from recent economic uncertainty in the US, David highlights a critical business lesson disguised as current affairs. When President Trump’s policies triggered consumer confidence drops and credit rating downgrades, American businesses and consumers responded predictably – they waited for things to improve before making important decisions. This seemingly rational response masks a dangerous reality: not making decisions when problems exist isn’t neutral positioning. Problems don’t pause politely while we gather courage or wait for better conditions. They accumulate, compound, and often become more expensive to solve over time. Steve and David frame this as essential self-audit territory for business owners. What decisions are you postponing because the timing doesn’t feel right? While you’re waiting, your customers and staff are watching, potentially interpreting inaction as incompetence or lack of direction. Sometimes the cost of imperfect action is far less than the cost of perfect paralysis. The segment serves as both economic observation and business therapy, reminding listeners that entropy doesn’t wait for convenient timing. 26:30 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.TAA’s Spectacular Marketing Disaster Nothing illustrates the gap between intention and execution quite like TAA’s cringe-worthy business class advertisement from the 1970s. Steve subjects listeners to what he calls “the hardest ad I’ve ever had to endure” – a masterclass in how condescension masquerading as care destroys brand relationships. The advertisement features a woman with an affected British accent explaining TAA’s understanding of business travellers through a series of uncomfortable vignettes. Flight attendants invade personal space, straighten passengers’ bow ties without permission, and place fingers under noses to prevent sneezing. The overall tone reeks of superiority disguised as service. David and Steve dissect how the advertisement contradicts every principle they’ve discussed – it creates massive prediction errors that trigger discomfort, demonstrates no authentic conviction about customer service, and talks down to the very people it claims to understand. The hosts wonder whether TAA thought they were being ironically funny, but conclude that customer service messaging is never the appropriate venue for comedic risks. The segment concludes with redemption – TAA’s earlier “Up, Up and Away” campaign that Steve remembers fondly, demonstrating how the same brand could create genuine warmth and connection when they approached their audience with respect rather than condescension.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Belle Baker’s thoughtful response to our previous episode on conversational power sparks a deeper exploration into the magic words that either constrain or liberate our thinking. When we default to asking “what should we do?” we’re unknowingly shutting down possibilities, but shifting to “what could we do?” opens creative floodgates. Steve draws unexpected parallels between the French Revolution’s rebranding strategy and modern business transformation, questioning whether today’s rebrand obsessions serve customers or merely cure internal boredom. David cuts through email protection scam sophistication with his characteristic directness, while our Perspicacity segment celebrates the raw authenticity of a 1978 Ford Falcon advertisement that put actual racing legends in harm’s way to prove a point about precision and trust. Get ready to take notes. Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 01:00 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.When Sorry Becomes a Linguistic Crutch Belle Baker’s follow-up to our previous conversation about conversational power strikes at something fundamental about how we diminish our own presence through careless word choices. Her observation about women apologising for taking up space resonates beyond gender dynamics to reveal how automatically saying “sorry” for shared inconveniences robs our communications of intentionality. But the real revelation comes through Dr Jonah Berger’s research (Magic Words) on the creative constraints hidden in plain sight. His studies demonstrate that asking “what should I do?” unconsciously narrows our thinking to a single correct answer, while “what could I do?” expands our cognitive horizon to encompass multiple possibilities. Steve and David unpack how this linguistic shift transforms not just individual problem-solving but team dynamics, with David noting that “could” invites genuine collaboration while “should” often steamrolls over other perspectives. The implications extend beyond creativity to agency itself — when we frame challenges as having multiple potential solutions, we bring people along as co-creators rather than task-followers. 11:00 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.Revolutionary Lessons in Rebranding The French Revolution’s approach to visual identity offers surprisingly modern insights into the art of organisational transformation. Through Jacques-Louis David’s painting work and revolutionary festivals, the new republic deliberately adopted Roman aesthetics to distance itself from rejected monarchical symbols while establishing credible alternatives. As our historian notes from The Rest Is History podcast, “There is no government without rituals and without symbols” — a principle that translates directly to business rebranding efforts. Steve and David explore how this historical example challenges contemporary rebranding approaches that often prioritise internal novelty over external necessity. Too many rebrandings emerge from organisational boredom rather than strategic imperative, forgetting that most customers experience brands as occasional “glancing blows” rather than daily encounters. The French Revolution’s success lay in combining the best cultural elements worth preserving with genuinely transformative new principles — liberty, equality, fraternity — rather than throwing everything out for the sake of change. David emphasises the crucial implementation phase: new symbols and rituals only gain meaning through consistent repetition and demonstration of improved outcomes. 19:30 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.The Sophistication of Modern Email Deception Email protection scams have evolved beyond obvious Nigerian prince territory into convincingly professional presentations that exploit our legitimate security concerns. Steve dissects a particularly sophisticated example featuring pre-selected radio buttons, personalised details, and urgent 24-hour deadlines designed to bypass our critical thinking faculties. The solution lies in deliberately engaging what David identifies as our slower, more analytical thinking system rather than the fast, automatic responses these scams exploit. Having trusted advisors to verify suspicious communications creates a crucial circuit breaker against social engineering attacks that increasingly target small business owners through carefully crafted authenticity. 22:00 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.When Advertising Had Skin in the Game The 1978 Ford Falcon advertisement featuring six champion racing drivers standing as human targets while another driver weaves between them at over 90 kilometres per hour represents a vanished era of marketing authenticity. Allan Moffat, Colin Bond, John Goss, Dick Johnson, Ron Dixon, and Murray Carter risked their reputations and safety to demonstrate their genuine confidence in Falcon’s precision handling. Steve and David contrast this approach with contemporary automotive advertising that prioritises surviving crashes over preventing them, reflecting our broader cultural shift from collective responsibility to individual protection. The Falcon ad’s power emerged from its inversion of modern safety messaging — rather than promising you’ll survive harming others, it demonstrated you could avoid harm entirely through superior vehicle control. Today’s cynical environment might dismiss such authentic risk-taking as special effects trickery, illustrating how our assumption that “everything’s fake news” potentially undermines genuinely meaningful demonstrations of confidence and competence.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Rutger Bregman challenges us to create ripple effects from small personal changes that benefit entire communities. Jefferson Fisher revolutionises everyday communication by eliminating power-draining language and embracing uncomfortable directness. A hotel chain’s tone-deaf Mother’s Day spam highlights the need for sensitivity in seasonal marketing. And Golden North’s Giant Twin ice cream becomes a lens for examining whether sharing still resonates in modern advertising. Get ready to take notes. Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 02:00 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.Creating Space for Moral Ambition Starting with Rutger Bregman’s “Moral Ambition: Stop Wasting Your Talent and Start Making a Difference,” our hosts explore the delicate balance between self-care and societal impact, thanks to Bregman’s appearance on the Making Sense podcast with Sam Harris. Steve introduces the concept of a “Draper Day” (inspired by Mad Men’s Don Draper), suggesting we all need occasional disappearances for genuine recharge – not just mental health days, but proper disconnection. David connects Bregman’s philosophy to the recent Australian federal election, where voters rejected divisive politics that “pointed fingers” and embraced competition over cooperation. The discussion reveals how entropy means nothing maintains itself without effort – whether that’s democracy, business culture, or personal wellbeing. As David notes, every day requires doing “the next necessary thing” to make life better for yourself and those around you. 11:30 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.The Art of Not Apologising (And Other Communication Revelations) Jefferson Fisher’s “The Next Conversation” provides a masterclass in communication refinement that had both hosts reconsidering their linguistic habits. This young Texan attorney’s approach centres on three transformative principles that challenge comfortable communication patterns. First, stop cheapening apologies – replace “sorry I’m late” with “thank you for waiting.” Second, eliminate minimising language like “just” that undermines your right to participate. David recalls teaching university students, particularly women, to stop diminishing their contributions. Third, deliver difficult news directly – the segment’s most confronting lesson involves firing an employee without false pleasantries that raise cruel hope before crushing it. Steve’s admission of chronic over-apologising and David’s observations about gendered language patterns reveal how these seemingly minor shifts dramatically alter perceived authority and confidence. 24:00 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.When Mother’s Day Marketing Hits Raw Nerves Michael Mills’ scorching Facebook post about receiving multiple Mother’s Day lunch promotions after his mother’s death launches a necessary conversation about marketing sensitivity. The hotel chain’s spam campaign represents a broader failure to consider diverse customer circumstances during emotionally charged holidays. Our hosts highlight positive examples, including Café Belgiorno‘s thoughtful approach acknowledging that for some, Mother’s Day involves cherished memories rather than current celebrations. Etsy’s proactive strategy emerges as best practice – sending pre-emptive emails asking if customers want to opt out of Mother’s Day and Father’s Day promotions entirely. This segment underscores how genuine empathy in marketing requires anticipating customer pain points, not just chasing seasonal revenue. 27:30 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.The Evolution of Sharing (Through the Lens of Ice Cream) Golden North‘s marketing journey provides fascinating insight into changing social dynamics through their iconic Giant Twin – an ice cream designed to be snapped and shared. From early provenance-focused ads emphasising their Laura, South Australia heritage to clever visual gags of see-through cows, the brand’s evolution mirrors broader advertising trends. The revelation comes in a 2021 video featuring twins recounting childhood Giant Twin memories – many involving tears and tantrums over forced sharing. This “scarily refreshing” honesty acknowledges that their sharing-focused product often caused conflict rather than fostering harmony. Our hosts explore whether modern campaigns should embrace our increasing individualism (couples buying two) or remind us of sharing’s value. Steve’s vision of children using protractors to divide ice cream mathematically captures both the absurdity and truth of human nature. The discussion ultimately questions whether the “mini taste of sacrifice” inherent in sharing still resonates in contemporary culture.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In Person, we discover why songwriters and business folk alike benefit from fresh eyes that ask the right questions, revealing how collaboration creates outcomes greater than the sum of their parts. Principles explores whether archetypes offer genuine strategic value for businesses or simply provide convenient shortcuts to avoid the hard work of authentic brand development. Problems exposes dubious attempts to charge for Google indexing services that should always be free, reminding us that snake oil salespeople are always finding new bottles. And in Perspicacity, we examine the peculiar trend of executives creating AI-generated action figures of themselves, highlighting the troubling difference between what we can do and what we should do. Are we creating meaningful content or just chasing dopamine? Get ready to take notes. Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 02:00 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.When Another Set of Eyes Asks the Perfect Question What can business owners learn from musical collaborations? Quite a lot, it seems. Drawing from an anecdote about a young composer seeking feedback from a musical theatre legend from Econtalk episode Weep, Shudder, Die: The Secret of Opera Revealed (with Dana Gioia), we discover the power of the perfect question at the right moment. The story features a nervous student bravely presenting a rock opera-style composition based on Ayn Rand’s “Anthem” to a renowned composer. After the impressive performance, rather than offering generic praise or criticism, the master simply asks: “In that instrumental section—what will be happening on stage?” This deceptively simple question opens up entirely new dimensions of thinking. Steve and David explore how this mirrors their experiences in business mentoring, where often it’s not expertise but rather fresh perspective that catalyses breakthroughs. “It’s that wise old head asking that little bit… What are your characters doing on stage at that time?” Steve notes, highlighting how external viewpoints can illuminate blind spots we’ve developed through overexposure to our own work. The conversation reveals a particularly Australian challenge: our tendency toward isolation in small business compared to more collaborative approaches in other entrepreneurial cultures. “In the place that’s meant to be fixated on rugged individualism, there’s a heck of a lot more trying to socialise, connect, and just add value in the ferment of enthusiasm,” David observes about American business culture. 12:00 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.Archetypes as Branding Shortcuts – Compass or Crutch? When Jane McCarthy’s work on feminine archetypes in branding enters the conversation, both hosts approach with healthy scepticism while remaining open to potential value. “I think archetypes are such a double-edged thing,” David reflects, cutting to the heart of the matter: “It’s nice to be recognisable, but if you’re recognisable as an archetype, are you necessarily being recognised as you?” The discussion reveals that archetypes might function best as internal navigational tools rather than external identities. McCarthy’s concept of a “hometown hostess” archetype, as quoted from Marketing Over Coffee episode, The Goddess Guide To Branding, demonstrates how these frameworks provide shorthand for brand behaviour – a “true north” that teams can understand even when founders or consultants aren’t present. This sparks reflection on the mindset behind effective branding: not just selecting colours or crafting taglines, but establishing behavioural patterns that guide decision-making. “Every time you see it, it reinforces quickly… how it is to be on track when you are representing the brand, when you are living as the brand,” Steve explains. The hosts conclude that archetypes might complement rather than replace frameworks like StoryBrand, potentially offering valuable shortcuts when they help teams stay aligned with founding principles. The key insight emerges: an archetype without a story lacks context, while a story without consistent character lacks coherence. 25:00 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.The Elaborate Con of Charging for Free Services The dubious email promising to “add your domain to Google Search Index” for a fee provides a perfect case study in digital snake oil. “Here’s someone paying for something that’s free,” Steve observes, breaking down the scam’s mechanics with mounting exasperation. The discussion exposes how predatory services exploit knowledge gaps among business owners, charging for basic services that Google offers freely through Search Console. The investigation reveals increasingly troubling details – from fake customer service numbers to overly broad privacy policies designed to capture personal information for resale. Between Steve’s detective work and David’s sardonic commentary (“They’re such a lovely bunch of people!”), the segment delivers practical information while reinforcing the importance of digital literacy in modern business. 30:00 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.The Curious Case of Executive Action Figures When AI-generated images of business people as action figures became a brief LinkedIn trend, our hosts couldn’t resist creating their own mockup – not to join the trend, but to examine what this peculiar fascination reveals about modern business culture. “The first person who did this, hats off to them. It was a fun idea… Now every human and their dog seems to be doing this. There’s nothing compelling, novel or surprising about it,” Steve observes, cutting to the heart of mindless trend-following. This seemingly harmless diversion becomes a window into larger questions about authentic engagement versus dopamine-driven content creation. David doesn’t mince words: “We’ve got this billion-dollar platform… And what do we do with it? Copy a trend to go, ‘Well, I can do that too, so I must be the same as everyone else.'” The uncomfortable truth emerges – we’re spending valuable business time pursuing digital validation rather than creating genuine value. The conversation turns to the question of professional integrity when Steve notes these action figures make the creator the hero, violating a core marketing principle: “It’s enshrining the wrong way of looking at the world. We are not the heroes.” This links perfectly to their StoryBrand discussions – when business people waste time creating self-glorifying toys instead of solving customer problems, they’ve fundamentally lost their way. The segment evolves through Dave Diamond’s blistering critique of LinkedIn culture: “I came for opportunity. I stayed for the dopamine.” This provocative take sparks consideration of whether social platforms encourage meaningful professional connection or simply engineered addiction masquerading as networking. Are we creating valuable content or just chasing the next hit of validation? The hosts close with a candid reminder that their reflection is as much self-directed as outward-facing: “We are talking to ourselves as much as everyone—we’re thinking out loud.” The value lies in the regular realignment with purpose, stepping back from algorithmic pursuits to reconnect with the authentic motivation behind our work. The action figure trend serves as the perfect metaphor – are we building businesses of substance, or just playing with toys?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Will Guidara’s journey from awestruck 12-year-old at the Four Seasons to creating one of the world’s best restaurants reveals what “unreasonable hospitality” truly means. Disney’s insistence on breathing animatronic birds teaches us why perfection in unseen details creates experiences customers can feel. Steve confesses how a questionable radio crossfade between Deep Purple and Smokie’s Oh Carol sparked an 18-year broadcasting career, while David shares how a teacher’s inspired intervention led him to discover his guiding principle: “how you do anything is how you do everything.” All this, plus a practical solution to website bottlenecks and a healthy skepticism about whether traditional pricing psychology still applies in our cashless world. Get ready to take notes. Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 01:15 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.Those Childhood Moments That Define Our Future Selves Nothing shapes a career path quite like those lightning bolt moments from childhood. Will Guidara, in his brilliant book Unreasonable Hospitality, recounts how his entire professional trajectory was set at age 12 when a Four Seasons server called him “sir” after dropping his napkin. That dignified treatment, the refusal to make a child feel small in a sophisticated space, ignited his passion for hospitality. Steve and David explore how these formative experiences shape our professional identities, with Steve confessing his own watershed moment came at precisely the same age—albeit sparked by something considerably less profound: a jarring radio crossfade between Deep Purple’s Smoke On The Water and Smokie’s Oh Carol that had him thinking, “That looks easy—and you’d get all the girls.” Despite its dubious inspiration, that moment launched an 18-year broadcasting career that no careers counsellor could talk him out of. David’s path proved distinctly different, with uncertainty rather than clarity defining his early professional thoughts. His transformative moment came through a teacher who, recognising his analytical mind (and argumentative tendencies), arranged legal work experience that taught him a crucial lesson: “how you do anything is how you do everything”—a principle that would resurface throughout the episode. 09:30 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.Disney Birds Must Breathe: The Power of Unreasonable Precision Will Guidara’s Unreasonable Hospitality offers a masterclass in intentionality that has Steve and David unpacking its transformative implications for every aspect of business. Guidara’s approach at Eleven Madison Park—requiring staff to position plates so manufacturer stamps would face right-side up if a guest flipped them over—exemplifies what Walt Disney understood decades earlier: “People can feel perfection.” When Disney’s Imagineers protested that no one would notice whether their animatronic birds appeared to breathe in the Enchanted Tiki Room, Disney insisted they add the feature, understanding that details create an emotional response even when not consciously registered. The hosts explore how this meticulous attention applies beyond hospitality—it’s about creating an environment where precision becomes second nature. David connects this to his experiences in Special Operations training, where he witnessed firsthand how an entire culture of exactitude made everyone’s work smoother and more effective. This precision extends to the mundane: putting staplers back exactly where they belong and refilling paper before it runs out. Steve introduces his emerging household philosophy of considering “the next person”—leaving things right for whoever follows, even if that person is your future self. David traces this mindset back to his Hungarian grandmother, who instinctively prepared everything for its next use before walking away. In both hospitality and life, the way you do one thing truly becomes the way you do everything. 18:00 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.Unblocking the Website Bottleneck What keeps projects stalled in the “too hard” basket? Steve and David examine how their new “Website in a Week” offering tackles three common bottlenecks that plague small business websites. First, there’s the blank page problem—small business owners facing writer’s block when asked to create their own content. Steve’s solution: “Give me 30 minutes of your time. I’ll interview you and take content creation completely off your plate.” Then there’s the deadline dilemma. Without clear timeframes, projects languish indefinitely. The “in a week” commitment creates urgency and clarity for everyone involved. Finally, they address the perfection trap—that paralysing fear of launching something that isn’t 100% perfect. Their response channels Seth Godin’s “minimum viable product” philosophy while adding a crucial qualifier: websites are never truly finished but should be “fit for purpose at an absolute minimum.” Just ship it. The hosts reflect on how we’re hardwired to avoid embarrassment, making us hesitant to put our work out for public scrutiny. Drawing from Will Storr’s insights, David notes that every business proposal gets filtered through two questions: “How will this affect my identity?” and “How will this affect my status in the group?” The key is designing solutions that enhance both. 25:15 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.Do Bundles Still Need Easy Maths? Has consumer behaviour fundamentally changed in our digital age? Steve and David explore an observation from marketing professional Sarah Levenger that people are 45% more likely to buy bundles when the mental maths is easy (like six shirts for $24 rather than six for $27). In an era where shoppers rarely calculate prices mentally—let alone with pencil and paper—our hosts question whether this principle still applies. The more effective approach might simply be transparent communication: “$4 per shirt if you buy six.” This leads to a reflection on the price denomination effect—the theory that consumers are more likely to purchase when prices align with currency note values. But as David notes, “I know a lot of people who haven’t handled bank notes since Covid,” suggesting these traditional pricing psychology principles may be losing relevance in our cashless world. The verdict? Focus less on mathematical pricing tricks and more on clear value communication.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Willie Nelson once said you should “get to the heart of feelings and keep it to a minimum” for maximum effect. We wish Facebook had taken that advice before building an empire on manipulating our emotions. Sarah Wynn-Williams lifts the veil on tech’s “move fast and break things” mantra in her revealing memoir of life inside Meta’s walls. David shares his belated Facebook awakening and the initial joy of reconnecting with students and overseas friends—before the platform’s heavy-handed manipulation became impossible to ignore. Steve conducts a post-mortem on our collective social media naivety, tracing the path from wide-eyed optimism to the sobering reality of platforms that profit most when humanity is divided, angry, and clicking. Get ready to take notes. Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 01:15 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.Sarah Wynn-Williams’ Cautionary Tale of Idealism in Silicon Valley Sarah Wynn-Williams’ journey from diplomatic service to Facebook’s corridors of power offers a fascinating window into tech’s hollow promises. Her book “Careless People” details how her desire to make a positive difference in the world led her to Facebook—where she discovered idealism is no match for growth at all costs. As David notes, it’s remarkable that someone so committed to values could survive within the company’s ecosystem for as long as she did. Her tenacious belief that Facebook could become a force for good provides a poignant contrast to the “move fast and break things” mindset embedded in the company’s DNA. The hosts reflect on how many of us “drank the Kool-Aid” during social media’s early days, creating genuine connections before algorithmic manipulation became the norm. While David found accessibility benefits in Facebook’s ability to reconnect him with students and overseas friends, even these positive experiences came with hidden costs that Wynn-Williams’ book painfully exposes. 13:00 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.Free Speech Champions Until The Speech Isn’t Free (of Criticism) In a masterclass of hypocrisy, the tech industry’s self-proclaimed defenders of free expression reveal their true colors when the spotlight turns on them. Steve highlights the book’s uncertain future as Meta attempts to silence Wynn-Williams through legal manoeuvres—ironic for a company whose leadership constantly wraps itself in free speech rhetoric. The discussion explores Facebook’s calculated approach to political influence, including the shocking revelation of how they embedded staff within Trump’s 2016 campaign while employing sophisticated proicesses for micro-targeting voters. As Wynn-Williams recounts, Zuckerberg’s reaction to learning of his platform’s role in the election outcome wasn’t moral reflection but rather fascination with his own potential political aspirations. Most disturbing is what the hosts describe as the “absent moral dimension” throughout the company’s decision-making. From offering surveillance capabilities to authoritarian governments to designing systems that profit from societal division, the book exposes how ethical considerations consistently take a backseat to user acquisition and engagement metrics. 23:00 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.When “Connecting People” Becomes a Weapon The most harrowing segment delves into Facebook’s role in the Myanmar genocide, where military operatives weaponised the platform to spread misinformation and incite violence against the Muslim population. Steve and David confront the ethical dilemma this presents to marketers and users alike. While acknowledging the platform’s continuing utility as a communication tool, they announce their decision to adopt an “organic social media only” policy, refusing to funnel client advertising dollars into Meta’s coffers. The hosts grapple with the uncomfortable reality that no social media platform is entirely “clean,” leaving businesses and individuals to make difficult ethical calculations. As David notes, “We can’t have a pure version here, but we can certainly not contribute to it being worse.” 30:00 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.When Social Connection Returns to Human Scale From the chaos of the Christchurch earthquake emerges a surprising insight about technology’s proper place in our lives. Sarah Wynn-Williams’ personal story of receiving news about her sister’s safety through Facebook demonstrates how these platforms can serve genuine human needs during crises. Yet as Steve observes, the trustworthiness of crisis information has dramatically declined with the proliferation of fake content. The hosts suggest that social media works best when confined to Dunbar’s number—approximately 150 people we can meaningfully know and trust. The episode closes with a call to redirect our attention from the “fake promises of connection” toward the “hard, slow, sweaty work” of maintaining relationships with people physically close to us. As David summarises, “Look after your circle of trust. If people are outside your circle of trust, they’re outside of it. And that tells you something really important.”See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

David Duchovny reveals why success can leave you alone on a pedestal while failure invites you into a community of shared experience. We unpack the delightful contradiction of business advice books – from bootstrapping beginners to broccoli-avoiding delegators – and why different paths might all lead to the same summit. Meanwhile, VentraIP’s ‘complimentary’ domain names and Microsoft’s Skype funeral remind us that in business, what’s presented as sweet often leaves a bitter aftertaste. Get ready to take notes. Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 01:30 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.David Duchovny’s Blueprint for Embracing the Upside of Your Failures When most celebrities discuss their journey, they craft a narrative that conveniently drops the missteps. Not so with David Duchovny, who offers a refreshingly nuanced take on why his post-X-Files ventures into filmmaking sometimes flopped – and why that might be a good thing. As our hosts unpack Duchovny’s conversation with Adam Grant, they reveal his core insight: success isolates while failure creates connection. The discussion evolves into an exploration of Australia’s peculiar relationship with both success and failure. Unlike America’s entrepreneur-friendly “fail forward” culture, we’ve developed an environment where discussing either triumph or disaster feels equally uncomfortable. As David notes, “We’re not allowed to talk about failure and we’re not allowed to talk about success. What exactly are we meant to talk about?” The segment concludes with Duchovny’s deliciously pointed observation about Silicon Valley’s “fail fast” mantra, describing it as merely “success culture wearing failure drag” – a concept that resonated with both hosts as they reflected on how our relationship with failure shapes our capacity for authentic human connection. 14:00 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.The Contradictory Wisdom of Business Guides (Or: How Every Book Can Be Right) What happens when the business advice you’re receiving appears to contradict itself? Our hosts dive into this conundrum by examining the tension between Simon Squibb’s bootstrapping philosophy and Blair Enns’ “don’t eat your broccoli” approach to delegation. The first tells you to do everything yourself; the second tells you to outsource what you don’t enjoy. Rather than picking a winner, Steve and David suggest both perspectives might be simultaneously valid depending on your circumstances. “It’s like what Rabbi Brasch once told me,” Steve reflects. “There are many pathways to the top of the same mountain.” The conversation takes an elegant turn toward Richard Koch’s 80/20 principle as a possible reconciliation between these seemingly opposing views. David reframes the delegation question: “It’s not whether broccoli’s good for you or bad for you… it’s a question of if I spend time eating my broccoli, am I wasting time on something else that would be even better for me?” This philosophical dance culminates in a real-world application as Steve discusses his newly launched “Website in a Week” offering – a service that contradicts his 20-year philosophy of encouraging clients to build their own sites, yet perfectly aligns with the principle of allowing people to focus on their strengths. 21:00 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.The “Free” Domain Name That’s Anything But (Or: When Gifts Come With Strings) In a segment that sparked evident frustration from both hosts, Steve details how Australian web hosting company VentraIP has adopted a page from the cynical playbook of LinkedIn’s “free premium” offers. Their “complimentary” domain name – presented as appreciation for customer loyalty – automatically renews as a paid service the following year. The hosts dissect not just the questionable ethics of this “gift” but the deliberately cumbersome process required to decline it. “It is a center of confusion in the business world,” Steve notes, pointing out how small business owners regularly forward domain renewal notices to him, unsure whether they’re legitimate services or clever scams. The segment concludes with a clear warning: while not reason enough to immediately abandon VentraIP, this tactic has certainly primed our hosts to keep their eyes open for competitors who “stick to their knitting” without resorting to such manipulative marketing practices. 26:00 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.Microsoft’s Digital Spring Clean: The Death of Skype and Publisher In the final segment, our hosts contemplate Microsoft’s decision to discontinue Skype, exploring the unexpected emotions that surface when familiar tools disappear from our digital landscape. While not widely mourned by the general public, Skype’s pay-as-you-go model offered podcasters like Steve an affordable recording solution that newer subscription-based alternatives can’t match. The conversation expands to include Microsoft Publisher’s impending demise, prompting a moment of gentle mockery for the “gordy, cutesy, sickly sweet little kindergarten newsletters” it helped produce. “There’s gonna be a lot of people who are gonna get an hour of their day back with the death of Publisher,” David quips, neatly capturing the sentiment. This bittersweet farewell to once-revolutionary tools serves as a reminder of the technology lifecycle – from boundary-pushing innovation to corporate acquisition to eventual obsolescence – while raising questions about whether the next wave of useful tools might come from “half a dozen little nerds” rather than tech behemoths.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Rick Caruso demonstrates why planning for disaster means you might be the only building left standing when LA’s wildfires rage through – and why his private firefighter strategy offers lessons for us all. David Lynch’s legacy reminds us that creating characters people genuinely care about is the secret ingredient to making audiences lean in and stay engaged – even when the narrative deliberately avoids closure. Meta’s inbox impersonators are getting craftier with their urgent demands for “verification,” proving that digital scammers are banking on our panic response. A small child tapping alongside a street performer in Galway asks the question we all need to consider: why aren’t more of us willing to step out of our comfort zones and join the dance? Get ready to take notes. Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 01:00 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.Rick Caruso’s Private Firefighting Playbook Rick Caruso, former LA Department for Water and Power commissioner, real estate mogul and philanthropist, shares a remarkable tale of foresight that left his shopping centre standing while LA burned. Steve encountered Rick’s discussion in In The Politics of Catastrophe – Waking Up Podcast #399. Drawing on lessons from previous Montecito disasters, Caruso and his team built a shopping centre with non-combustible materials, minimal venting, and a private firefighting strategy that didn’t deplete municipal resources. Steve and David unpack this approach through the lens of strategic planning, noting how the “pre-mortem” exercise (imagining future failure and working backward) overlaps with Caruso’s meticulous planning. They explore the growing necessity of personal responsibility in an era where Donald Trump and Elon Musk seemingly mock standards, asking whether we should all be holding ourselves to higher account in both business and personal life. As David notes, we’re entering a period where “if you don’t look after yourself, no one else is going to” – pointing to rising insurance costs, healthcare expenses, and other signs that systems we once relied on are faltering. Self-sufficiency, from solar panels to physical fitness, might be the new normal in weathering life’s inevitable storms. 13:30 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.David Lynch’s Guide to Character Connection Following the death of filmmaker David Lynch in January 2025, Steve and David reflect on the appointment-viewing phenomenon that was Twin Peaks and what made Lynch’s storytelling so powerful. Steve picked up on the news after hearing Tamler Summer from the Very Bad Wizards podcast, eulogise the famous director. They explore Lynch’s deliberate avoidance of narrative closure – “as soon as you get closure, it’s just an excuse to forget you saw the damn thing” – and what this means for business storytelling. The hosts connect Lynch’s character-building prowess to Donald Miller’s StoryBrand framework, noting that Lynch understood what takes many marketers years to learn: audiences connect with vulnerable characters who keep trying despite uncertainty. The key insight? In your marketing, position your customer as the hero and your business as the guide – not the other way around. As David notes, “Lynch always left his central characters with some degree of vulnerability. We came to really care about the fact they were vulnerable, and it could go wrong, and they didn’t have all the answers, but they kept on trying.” They conclude that while storytelling in marketing isn’t new, Lynch reached a depth that many storytellers – and marketers – are still trying to catch up to. 21:45 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.Meta Verification Scams Get Craftier A plague of convincing scam messages is hitting Facebook business pages and Instagram accounts, purporting to be from Meta with urgent notices of policy violations. These messages, typically from accounts with blue icons featuring three people, warn of imminent account suspension or deactivation unless “verification” is completed within unreasonably short timeframes. Steve shares examples of these messages, pointing out the telltale signs they’re fake: urgency tactics (verify within 4 hours), suspicious web addresses that don’t end in meta.com, and exaggerated threats of account deletion. His preferred response to these scammers? “Thank you so much. Can you please remove my page? It’s way too much work” – a bit of fun at their expense. The hosts offer practical advice: never click suspicious links, check that any Meta-related links actually end in meta.com, and when in doubt, contact trusted sources (like Talked About Marketing for their clients) to verify legitimacy. 25:15 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.Why Aren’t More Adults Dancing? A viral video of Irish tap dancer Emma O’Sullivan performing in Galway captures a magical moment when a toddler breaks from the crowd to join in, mimicking the dancer’s movements with pure joy. What fascinates Steve is the child’s puzzled expression as she looks around, seemingly wondering why none of the adults are joining in the fun. This prompts the hosts to reflect on the barriers that keep adults from participating fully in interactive experiences. David notes, “We all live in a world where we’re not allowed to do fun things in an unrestricted way very much of the time. Instead, we need to do the socially acceptable thing and fit in so we don’t attract negative attention.” They discuss the importance of “priming the pump” in audience participation – how Glyn Nicholas’s Eurovision homage show, Club Eurovision, uses planted participants to model behavior, giving others permission to join in. As David observes, “If you want people to make noise, show them… Once people know it’s okay, then you give them that wonderful release of being part of a happy crowd doing things.” The segment closes with the reflection that sporting events might be the last realm where participatory behavior remains naturally normalised – a sobering thought for marketers hoping to create interactive experiences.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Willie Nelson shows us why getting to the point isn't just good songwriting – it's good business sense, especially when your audience's attention span is shorter than a country music chorus. John Cleese reveals why creativity loves company (as long as it's the right company) and why the Japanese might be onto something with their "juniors first" approach to meetings. LinkedIn's quiet data collection for AI training has us wondering if we should be getting premium memberships in exchange for our digital breadcrumbs. Steve conducts a cheeky experiment with fake business awards that has everyone (except one sharp-eyed Rotarian) fooled. Get ready to take notes. Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 01:30 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.Willie Nelson's Guide to Not Wearing Out Your Welcome Drawing from his new book Energy Follows Thought: The Stories Behind My Songs, Willie Nelson shares why sometimes eight lines are better than eighty. His approach to songwriting – get the story right first, then worry about the melody – offers a fresh perspective on business communication. As Steve and David unpack Willie's philosophy, they reveal why "less is more" isn't just a cliché when you're fighting for attention in a world of information overload. The hosts explore how this meshes with their own experiences in business communication, noting that while verbose marketers might love the sound of their own voice, their audiences rarely share the enthusiasm. 07:15 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.John Cleese and the Art of Group Think (The Good Kind) When John Cleese talks creativity, our hosts lean in – especially when he outlines why the best ideas often come from collaboration, provided you're not sharing the room with idea-killers. David and Steve explore how this mirrors their own experiences in marketing mentorship, highlighting the value of creating spaces where people feel safe to contribute without fear of judgment. The discussion takes an intriguing turn through Japanese business culture, where letting junior staff speak first isn't just polite – it's strategic. As our hosts note, this approach might just be the antidote to the "but we've always done it this way" syndrome that plagues many businesses. 15:15 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.LinkedIn's Data Harvest (Or: Why Your Professional Profile Is Training Someone Else's AI) In a revelation that had both hosts raising their eyebrows, we learn about LinkedIn's practice of using member data to train AI models. Steve and David dig into the implications, noting how European privacy laws forced a different approach across the pond while the rest of us clicked "agree" without reading the fine print. The discussion evolves into a broader examination of digital privacy and corporate transparency, with David suggesting that if companies want to use our data, maybe they should at least buy us dinner first (or at least a Premium membership). Here are the LinkedIn Scraping Opt Out Instructions, as shared by PerplexityAI: To opt out of LinkedIn using your data for AI training, follow these steps: Access your LinkedIn settings: On desktop: Click on your profile picture and select "Settings & Privacy" On mobile: Tap your profile picture and then tap "Settings" in the bottom-left corner Navigate to the "Data Privacy" section Look for "Data for Generative AI improvement" Toggle off the option "Use my data for training content creation AI models" 1 3 It's important to note a few key points: This setting is switched on by default for users outside the European Economic Area (EEA) and Switzerland1 Opting out will prevent LinkedIn and its affiliates from using your personal data or content for future AI model training1 However, opting out does not affect AI training that has already taken place using your data 1 3 For a more comprehensive opt-out, LinkedIn also provides a separate data processing objection form. However, they note that this also won't affect training that has already occurred1.Privacy advocates argue that this opt-out model is inadequate for protecting user rights, suggesting that companies should instead use an opt-in model for consent to use personal data for AI training.Remember, if you're in the EU, EEA, or Switzerland, LinkedIn is not currently using your data to train content-generating AI models due to stricter privacy regulations in these regions. 2 3 20:30 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.The Great Awards Game From the nostalgic world of "As Seen on TV" badges to today's proliferation of business awards, Steve and David create a traffic light system for credential credibility. The segment culminates in Steve's mischievous experiment with a completely fabricated award that garnered genuine congratulations – proving that perhaps we've all become a bit too quick to celebrate without verification. For further reading, Steve has written a blog post on this topic: The Great Awards Swindle: How We All Became Award-Winning Everything.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this episode of Talking About Marketing, we explore the delicate balance between staying true to yourself and navigating external expectations. We begin with Johnny Cash’s iconic song Man in Black, delving into how moments of clarity can redefine purpose, both in life and in business. Next, we discuss the concept of altruism, inspired by filmmaker Penny Lane’s bold decision to donate a kidney to a stranger, examining the tension between genuine acts of goodness and societal scepticism. Our problem segment highlights the dangers of spreading unchecked memes, urging us to verify before sharing in the fast-paced world of social media. Finally, we tackle the evolving sensitivities around language and metaphor, pondering how intent and context shape how expressions are received. Get ready to take notes! Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes 01:15 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.The Mirror Audit: Lessons from Johnny Cash on Authenticity in Life and Work In this segment, Steve and David delve into the power of authenticity, inspired by Johnny Cash’s iconic song Man in Black. The discussion begins with an anecdote about Johnny Cash’s struggle to reconcile public expectations with his true self, culminating in the creation of a song that not only defined his legacy but also served as his personal manifesto, as explained in the book, Johnny Cash: The Life In Lyrics. The conversation reveals that Cash wrote Man in Black in just three hours during a moment of clarity, illustrating the creative power that can emerge when one embraces their true identity. Steve and David reflect on how society often pressures individuals to conform, especially after achieving success. They highlight the courage it takes to resist this pressure, as seen in Cash’s decision to remain true to himself despite external demands. The discussion broadens to explore how this principle applies to everyday life and professional settings. Drawing from personal insights and teaching experience, David emphasises the importance of being a consistent, authentic version of oneself, rather than attempting to fabricate a professional persona. They suggest conducting a "mirror audit" to assess whether one’s behaviour aligns with their true self while balancing the nuances required in different social or professional contexts. Ultimately, they celebrate the value of individuality, noting that it not only leads to greater personal satisfaction but also makes a person more memorable and impactful. 13:00 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.Do-Gooder Derogation: The Double-Edged Sword of Altruism and Social Media In this segment, Steve and David explore the thought-provoking concept of "do-gooder derogation," a term introduced by filmmaker Penny Lane in her reflections on altruism on one of Steve's favourite podcasts, Econtalk. Lane, who documented her personal experience of donating a kidney to a stranger, provides insights into the human tendency to disparage those who take morally courageous actions. This psychological phenomenon arises as a self-protective mechanism, where observing someone’s altruism triggers feelings of inadequacy or judgment in others. Lane compares this to reactions toward vegans, who often face criticism for their lifestyle choices because they inadvertently highlight others’ shortcomings. Steve connects this idea to marketing and social media dynamics, particularly on platforms like LinkedIn, where humblebragging and self-congratulatory posts often provoke similar reactions. Together, Steve and David unpack the nuances of this behaviour, suggesting ways to approach online content with authenticity and humility. They advocate for shifting the focus from self-promotion to gratitude, learning, and acknowledging the contributions of others. By grounding personal achievements in relatable contexts and recognising the role of luck and goodwill, individuals can foster genuine connections while mitigating the negative effects of do-gooder derogation. 24:00 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.The Problem with Memes: Verify Before You Amplify In this problem-focused segment, Steve and David examine the tempting but often problematic nature of memes in modern media. Steve shares his experience encountering a humorous yet false meme about Stephen King allegedly being kicked off X (formerly Twitter) for calling Elon Musk “the first lady.” Though the meme was untrue, Steve reflects on its resonance due to the grain of truth it carried about individuals who dish out criticism but cannot handle it themselves. This highlights the dual-edged nature of memes: their ability to encapsulate sentiments while risking the spread of misinformation. The discussion underscores the responsibility that comes with sharing content, particularly in an era where algorithms feed us information tailored to spark our emotions. David advises a straightforward mantra for navigating this landscape: “verify, verify, verify.” He stresses the importance of taking a few seconds to fact-check claims, especially before sharing them on personal or professional accounts. Steve agrees, emphasising that businesses must be particularly vigilant, as reputational stakes are higher for organisations. Together, they advocate for a more thoughtful approach to consuming and sharing media to prevent the further degradation of online discourse. 28:30 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.Blind Spots in Language: Navigating Sensitivity and Artistic Expression In this reflective segment, Steve and David discuss the evolving sensitivity surrounding language, particularly metaphors and expressions involving sight, through the lens of Billy Field’s haunting ballad, I Was in Love with You. Steve recounts how the lyrics struck him differently in 2024 compared to their release in the 1980s, largely due to heightened societal awareness and his own personal connections. David asserts that such expressions, when used thoughtfully in artistic contexts like songwriting, are powerful tools for conveying complex emotions and ideas, and should not be off-limits. However, he contrasts this with careless or thoughtless usage in everyday speech, which often adds little value and can inadvertently cause harm. The segment delves further into the fine line between intent and impact, illustrated by a comedic BBC Scotland series, Scot Squad, that exaggerates apologies for insensitive language. David highlights that the emotional intent behind words often outweighs the words themselves, yet acknowledges how this can sometimes be misjudged. The discussion leaves listeners with an understanding of how cultural and personal contexts influence the reception of language, as well as the importance of thoughtfulness in both creative and casual communication.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.