On this episode of The Convocation Unscripted, we discuss the big question of how history can help us in the present. The task of historians is to identify patterns in the past in order to fashion a coherent narrative, which tells a story about how we got to the present. Unavoidably, this narrative is constructed in the context of problems in the present and concerns about the future. This week, Diana told us what she had learned about managing violence and conflict from her recent time with activists who were involved in the peace process in Northern Ireland and what might be helpful for our own contemporary troubles. We also discussed the dangers of focusing on “depolarization” as the primary problem, which can float free of any moral commitments, rather than substantive values like protecting democracy.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com
On this episode, the Convocation Unscripted team talks about the importance of truth and reality amid the whirlwind of debates about political violence in the aftermath of the horrific murder of Charlie Kirk and the subsequent attacks on free speech, such as the suspension of Jimmie Kimmel by ABC. While acknowledging that all political violence is abhorrent, we also look at the facts about the actual shape of political violence in the US; the government’s own official reports—recently purged from the Department of Justice website—found that “since 1990, far-right extremists have committed far more ideologically motivated homicides than far-left or radical Islamist extremists.” We also discuss the kind of response to Kirk’s assassination that we wish we would have heard from the president and other Republican leaders—one that focused on condemning all political violence and calling us to our better selves rather than fanning the flames and using it as an opportunity to infringe on the Constitutional right to free speech. As Christians, there has never been a time when we need a theology that refuses to separate people into good and evil categories, one that foregrounds grace and love for enemies. We close with an urgent message for all to stand up against political violence and in defense of free speech, while we still have the freedom to do so.
We love your comments. In fact, we led off our discussion by sharing our reflections on one particular comment.Robby shared,[This person was] finding themselves feeling a little jaded by the constant, “You won't believe what just happened now.”And same thing, day after day, after day—kind of a Groundhog Day experience, and worried about getting caught up in the negativity, not being able to think about: What do we do?How can we manage the chaos?How can we manage our own responses to it, and try to get to do something productive in the meantime?So we each shared how we approach our obligation to tell the truth—which necessarily involves a lot of “doom and gloom”—with the equally urgent call to hope and resilience.We do these live episodes once a month, and the best part for us as hosts is interacting with you in real time.So we devote about half the episode to answering your questions.We’re curious: How do you resist feeling jaded when there’s so much bad news? How are you cultivating hope and resilience? Let us know in the comments.A Live Q & A Session with The Convocation UnscriptedFollow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerbass.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones.bsky.socialFollow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.comFollow on BlueSky:https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerbass.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones.bsky.socialFollow on Substack:The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com
We start this discussion this week with the tragic news of yet another mass school shooting, this time at a Catholic school in Minneapolis, which killed two children and injured 18 others. In this case, the violence broke out while students were gathered for mass. We discuss the trauma that such events create for children and families, when safe spaces like schools and sacred places like churches are targeted. And we lament the way this shooting is already being exploited by those on the political right, given that the shooter was a transgender woman, even though most mass shootings and acts of domestic terrorism have been perpetrated by straight white men. We also discussed the continued march toward authoritarianism with the firing of the CDC director, Susan Monarez, over Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s insistence on restricting COVID-19 vaccines. Finally, we talk about President Trump’s recent preoccupation with “getting into heaven.” As with everything Trump, his musings betray a transactional view of heaven, a far cry from the doctrines of repentance and grace in the Protestant Christian faith he claims to have. We note the significance of a lack of concern by any evangelical leaders over Trump’s crass, heretical comments about salvation.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerbass.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones.bsky.socialFollow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com
In this episode, we discuss the influence of James Dobson, who died this week, on evangelical Christianity and the Christian Right political movement. Dobson's writings, particularly his parenting guide Dare to Discipline, promoted harsh punishment of children and patriarchal norms. Dobson’s vision of strict discipline and hierarchical authority, popularized through is massive Focus on the Family media empire, laid the groundwork for the current white evangelical movement and the MAGA worldview. Diana shared her personal experience of being targeted by Dobson in a FOF newsletter, which led to death threats. We also discussed the unprecedented deployment of military troops in Washington, D.C., where both Diana and Robby live, which Trump falsely claimed was necessary due to high crime rates, despite actual crime being at a 30-year low. This occupation of our nation’s capital—and its justification with the invocation of a fake emergency based on lies—are straight out of the dictator's playbook. We close with the need to keep resisting and speaking out.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com
In this episode, The Convocation Unscripted team talked about Trump’s attacks on universities and the tragedy of the capitulation of Columbia University, who has agreed to pay the government $200 million and to submit to the oversight of a “Resolution Monitor,” specified in the agreement to be Bart Schwartz of Guidepost Solutions (yes, the same firm hired by the SBC Executive Committee in the wake of the denominations sexual abuse scandals), who also happens to be—wait for it—the sitting CEO of Chicken Soup for the Soul. That seems a perfect example of the absurdity of these times. We also took a step back to highlight the underlying MAGA worldview of authoritarian hierarchy and contrast that with the biblical vision of Acts 2, where the Holy Spirit's gift was given specifically to oppressed, colonized people in the Roman Empire. The conversation concluded with a discussion of the importance of being morally responsive to current events, even when it feels overwhelming, emphasizing the value of community and truth in times of despair. We only have jokingly suggested a tagline for the podcast could be, “Come for the despair, stay for the community.”Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com
This week, Robby, Diana, and Jemar talk about the ongoing revelations about President Trump’s connections to Jeffrey Epstein, and the ways Trump’s previous encouragement of QAnon conspiracy theories is now coming back to bite him. Nearly half of Republicans who most trust far-right news are QAnon believers, according to PRRI data, and this group isn’t letting the story go. We also discuss the blatantly white supremacist memes that are being posted by the Department of Homeland Security on its official social media channels—featuring white settler colonists with messages like “Remember your homeland’s heritage.” The conversation concluded with discussions about the dire food shortage in Gaza and the children we are seeing starve before our eyes. Jemar emphasizing the importance of Christian engagement and action, and pointed to an upcoming conference, Church at the Crossroads, scheduled for September 11-13, which aims to engage American Christians in addressing the crisis and promoting justice. Links:https://prri.org/spotlight/the-rise-and-impact-of-q-the-2024-election-from-the-view-of-qanon-believers/https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2025/jul/23/dhs-art-post-propagandahttps://churchatthecrossroads.com/
In this deeply honest episode of The Convocation Unscripted, historians Dr. Jemar Tisby, Kristin Kobes Du Mez, and Diana Butler Bass gather to reflect on the emotional toll of studying and speaking out on faith, politics, and power in America. As cultural crises mount, they explore the personal and professional exhaustion that comes from repeatedly warning of societal dangers—only to watch them unfold.Together, they ask: What does it mean to persist as public voices of conscience? How do we process the discouragement that comes with being right too soon? And where might we find resilience in the face of recurring injustice?
Religion is always part of the story--even when it comes to U.S. foreign policy. Trump's decision to bomb nuclear sites in Iran, an action taken after Israel's military actions in the nation, are not simply geopolitical in their dimensions. Many Christians uncritically support the modern state of Israel because of a theological belief system called premillennial dispensationalism. Diana, Kristin, and Jemar dig into the history, the culture and the implications of this ideology. They also discuss ongoing ICE human rights abuses and the surprising projected victory of Zohran Mamdani as the Democratic Party nominee for mayor of New York City. Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerbass.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones.bsky.socialFollow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com
The hosts of Convocation Unscripted discussed the tragic political assassination of Minnesota Rep. Melissa Hortman and her husband, Mark Horton, and the shootings of Minnesota Sen. John Hoffman and his wife, Yvette. It is now clear that these murders were carried out by Vance Boelter, a devout white evangelical Christian who held a degree in practical theology from the unaccredited Christ for the Nations Institute, which is associated with the New Apostolic Reformation movement. This worldview is steeped in spiritual warfare language that casts politics as a battle between God and Satan and in the US portrays Democrats and liberals as possessed by demons and instruments of evil. We talk about our dismay at the lack of outrage, particularly among Republicans and white evangelicals and the depraved used of this awful violence to score political points as Sen. Mike Lee has done. We concluded our conversation with reflections on the importance of Juneteenth, our newest federal holiday, and the importance of white Americans and white Christians particularly to incorporate a celebration of the holiday, and the history it commemorates, as part of our story.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerbass.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones.bsky.socialFollow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com
In this LIVE episode of The Convocation Unscripted, the team talks about the bright line Trump has crossed, as we witness his first overt attempts to turn America into a militarized police state. He’s creating a made-for-TV authoritarian reality show. It’s West Coast/East Coast split screen features Trump’s escalation of conflict by deploying the national guard and the marines in LA and his vain $45 million military parade in DC. It’s classic authoritarian propaganda: chaos and threatening brown people juxtaposed with displays of force and order—all meant to project the great white leader as the king, the only one who can save the country. We also talked about the tragic death of Jennifer Lyell, who survived alleged sexual abuse at the hands of her Southern Baptist seminary professor. After speaking out, she was smeared by church leaders, lost her job, and ultimately lost her life at age 47. Meanwhile, at the SBC annual meeting--amid this loss, the denomination's own refusal to address rampant sexual abuse in its own ranks, and the attacks on our democracy by the man Southern Baptists were instrumental in bringing to power--the leaders at the meeting determined that the most pressing issues God was calling them to address were overturning the legality of marriage equality and banning women from being pastors. Finally, we talk about the importance of resistance in all its forms and about empathy and solidarity as the antidote to authoritarianism.Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com
In this episode, the Convocation Unscripted team discussed President Trump's bonkers speech and dishonorable behavior at West Point's graduation ceremony and his inappropriate Memorial Day message on Truth Social, where he attacked political opponents rather than honoring fallen soldiers. Diana and Kristin expressed dismay at Trump's lack of respect for military traditions and values--noting that Trump seems only to honor himself while disparaging soldiers who died or were captured as losers and suckers--while Jemar and Robby highlighted how the President is repositioning national holidays as platforms for political propaganda. The discussion concluded with deeper reflections on the values of honor, service, and self-sacrifice and their religious roots. The Convocation Unscripted team also reflected on our recent retreat, where we decided to continue producing the Convocation Unscripted podcast beyond Trump's first 100 days. We heard from you all, and we agree, that TCU is helping provide all of us with a weekly dose of sanity and community. We’ve also decided to open the comments you YouTube, so please share your thoughts below on this episode!
Show Notes: This episode is a whirlwind! With critical headlines stacking up by the day, we sprint through urgent stories shaping our moment: --South African President Ramaphosa’s visit to the White House, --the Supreme Court’s shocking decision on religious schools in Oklahoma, --Pete Hegseth’s dominionist prayer rally, --a tragic shooting in DC raising tensions around antisemitism and Zionism, --and the political targeting of Harvard and international students. Plus, we recap the joy and connection we found at The Convocation Unscripted retreat.Like we said, a whirlwind—but it’s honest, grounded, and deeply necessary.P.S. Here's the LINK to Lisa Sharon Harper's article we reference in the episode.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerbass.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones.bsky.socialFollow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com
On this episode of The Convocation Unscripted, we discussed the breaking news of the historic appointment of Cardinal Robert Francis Prevost, who chose the name Pope Leo XIV, as the first Pope from the United States. We expressed relief and hope at this unexpected appointment. The early signs are that Prevost--a close associate of Pope Francis who has duel U.S. and Peruvian citizenship and spent more than half his career as a missionary in Peru--will offer a strong moral and theological stance against abuses of power and stand for the dignity of all, particularly immigrants and the poor. We also noted the potential political implications of Pope Leo XIV's appointment, particularly his recent rebuke of J.D. Vance’s distortion of Catholic theology related to “the order of loves” (Ordo Amoris), which Vance attempted to use to justify the Trump administration’s anti-immigrant rhetoric and policies. “JD Vance is wrong,” Prevost posted on his X account. “Jesus doesn’t ask us to rank our love for others.”Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerbass.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones.bsky.socialFollow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com
The Convocation Unscripted team—three historians and a sociologist who study religion in America—launched this podcast the spring before the 2024 election. After Trump’s election we stepped up the frequency, with a commitment to providing weekly research, analysis, and insights through Trump’s first 100 days. In this capstone episode, we reflect on the results of a new PRRI poll, which illuminates the yawning racial and religious divides in America that Trump has exploited during his rise to power, with a focus on the white Christians (principally white evangelical Protestants but also majorities of white non-evangelical Protestants and white Catholics) who put Trump into the White House and who continue to provide support and moral cover for even his most unlawful, cruel, and racist policies. But we also note some hopeful signs. At 100 days, Trump’s approval rating is underwater and lower than any other president not named Trump at this stage in his term since World War II. Most Americans oppose his harsh plans like militarized internment camps for undocumented immigrants, tariffs, and most see through the farce of his so-called “Anti-Christian Bias Task Force.” And a slim majority also now believe Trump is a dangerous dictator whose power should be limited before he destroys American democracy. We also reflect on the ways particularly white Christians who see the dangers Trump represents to our faith and nation can speak out in our churches and local communities.Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com
On this episode, the Convocation Unscripted team reflects on Pope Francis's impact on the Catholic Church and the world. The participants reflect on Francis's unconventional approach to the papacy, including his choice of name, simple lifestyle, and compassionate focus on the poor and marginalized. They highlight his efforts to make the Church more inclusive, particularly towards LGBTQ+ individuals and immigrants. In the second half of the conversation, the team draws attention to a DOJ press release summarizing the first meeting of the Trump's Anti-Christian Bias Task Force, arguing that it misrepresents Christianity and distorts facts to claim persecution. They analyze specific examples from the press release, such as fines against Christian universities for lying to students or failing to report sexual assaults, which are distorted and presented as anti-Christian bias.Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com
This week Jews are observing the eight days of Passover, while Christians are observing Holy Week leading up to Easter Sunday. In this episode, The Convocation Unscripted team (minus Jemar who is on the road) discuss the parallels between the crucifixion of Jesus and the current political moment, particularly the abduction and disappearance of Kilmar Abrega Garcia without due process. We express concern about the lack of action from Congress resisting Trump’s attacks on the rule of law and democratic norms and the need to move beyond partisanship to save our democracy. On the Democratic side of the aisle, we express frustration that most have been reluctant to act beyond the normal expectations of their office; but we give thankful shout outs to senators Cory Booker, Chris Van Holland, AOC, Bernie Sanders for their actions. On the Republican side, we acknowledge and appreciate Sen. Lisa Murkowski’s recent confession of fear for her own safety, but we also note that if just four sitting Republican senators would even temporarily side with the 45 Democratic and 2 Independent senators, they could stop the worst of Trump’s actions and halt our nation’s slide into fascism. Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com
The Convocation Unscripted team kicked off this episode by talking about our encouraging experiences from the road, where we’re feeling the energy building to resist the attacks on our democracy. Jemar spoke at a conference in DC sponsored by Americans United for the Separation of Church and State and visited elected officials at the US Capitol to encourage them to stand up for religious freedom. Kristin spoke to a rowdy (in a “good trouble” way) audience at St. Mary’s College in Indiana and is preparing for an upcoming “Free to Be Faithful” event in Grand Rapids, sponsored by by the Institute for Christian Studies. Robby just returned from a conference on “Telling the Story of Religion in Texas through Journalism” conference, where he urged journalists to interrogate the religious language used by leaders like Trump who are using it to justify authoritarian policies. Robby also applauded the American Academy of Religion for standing up and condemning book bans after his book, White Too Long: The Legacy of White Supremacy in American Christianity, was banned at the US Naval academy along with six other authors writing about religion, race, and gender in American history. These are all beacons of hope as Trump continues to undermine democracy and devastate the US and world economy.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.b...https://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky...https://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerb...https://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones...Follow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com
In our latest LIVE episode of The Convocation Inscription, we all report from our experiences from the road over the last two weeks—from California, Indiana, Tennessee, and New York. We’re sensing that all of the destruction unleashed by the Trump administration is finally sinking in to a broader swath of Americans, including folks in predominantly white Christian spaces. People are beginning to wake up, not only to the incompetence, but to the critical threat Trump and his presidency is to our pluralistic democracy. We urge people to understand the purges of websites, databases, and exhibits of the lives and work of women, LGBTQ Americans, and Americans of color for what they are—the modern day equivalent of a massive book burning. And we give a grateful shout out to Sen. Cory Booker, who took the record from segregationist Strom Thurman, for the longest speech given in the Senate in our nation’s history—this time calling for a more inclusive vision of America. Finally, we urge people to channel their anxiety, anger, frustration into action by looking for local ways to be loud and to use whatever resources they have now, before it gets even harder, to protect democracy.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerbass.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones.bsky.socialFollow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com
In this episode, the Convocation Unscripted team takes a break from the daily outrages coming from the Trump administration to talk about the work for racial justice, healing, and repair that is taking place in unexpected places. Jemar talked about his recent travels to Jackson, Mississippi, and Montgomery and Selma, Alabama. Robby talked about his recent trips to speak at First Baptist Church of Richmond, Virginia, where his book White Too Long was chosen as a city-side book read for Black History Month, and to the Zacchaeus Foundation in Little Rock, Arkansas, which is facilitating reparations payments from white residents and historically white churches to support Black nonprofits in Northwest Arkansas. Diana is also about to be on the road for much of April, speaking with churches and groups who are continuing the work of social and racial justice, even against the prevailing winds. We wrapped the episode with a tribute to Roger Freet, a literary agent to and friend of Diana and Robby, who passed away this week. He was a great soul who supported so much good work in the world, and we miss him.Follow on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/jemartisby.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/kkdumez.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/dianabutlerbass.bsky.socialhttps://bsky.app/profile/robertpjones.bsky.socialFollow on Substack: The Convocation- convocation.substack.comRobert P. Jones- www.whitetoolong.netDiana Butler Bass- dianabutlerbass.substack.comKristin Du Mez- kristindumez.substack.comJemar Tisby- JemarTisby.Substack.com