The David Frum Show

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with reflections on the strange and revealing controversy over Donald Trump’s rumored commemorative coin and what it says about the culture of flattery and self-abasement now defining MAGA politics. Then David is joined by former U.S. Secretary of Education Margaret Spellings for a candid look at the crisis in American education. Spellings, a key architect of No Child Left Behind and now president of the Bipartisan Policy Center, explains why U.S. test scores began to stagnate years before COVID and why the pandemic only deepened an accountability collapse already underway. They discuss the successes in states like Mississippi, the wasted billions in federal relief funds, and the political backlash against testing that, Spellings argues, has left millions of children behind. Finally, Frum turns to art and history with his discussion of The Judgment of Paris by Ross King, a story of how the impressionists overturned the art establishment of their time, and what it teaches about how the future judges the present. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with reflections on the malicious prosecution of James Comey and what it reveals about Donald Trump’s growing power over the justice system. He explains how the United States, unlike other advanced democracies, has allowed prosecutions to become instruments of presidential will, why Watergate-era norms of independence have eroded, and how the Supreme Court’s recent rulings have accelerated the drift toward one-man rule. Then Frum is joined by Sam Harris—author, podcaster, and creator of the Waking Up app—for a conversation about Silicon Valley’s dark political evolution toward authoritarianism. They discuss how the emancipatory optimism of the early internet gave way to surveillance, manipulation, and the shattering of shared reality; why prominent tech figures are embracing authoritarian politics; and how conspiracy, anti-vaccine movements, and the pursuit of profit have corroded the culture of innovation. Finally, David closes with a discussion of Robert Proctor’s The Nazi War on Cancer. He notes how the Nazi regime advanced anti-smoking and cancer-prevention campaigns even as it committed atrocities, tracing the deeper links between politics and health. Drawing a parallel to today, David connects that history to the rise of the MAHA movement: where anti-vaccine ideology and wellness grifts overlap with MAGA politics, fueled by distrust of experts and a refusal of solidarity and empathy with the sick and suffering. He argues that the Trump administration is recasting health as a test of personal virtue to reinforce its authoritarian project. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum argues that President Donald Trump is making a miscalculation in his second term. Instead of consolidating power before plundering the state, Trump has reversed the sequence, imposing massive tariffs that raise prices on ordinary Americans, flaunting foreign wealth, and enriching his inner circle at public expense. Frum speculates that by impoverishing the public before securing control, Trump is exposing himself to serious political risks and that Americans must resist the temptation to be passive, hopeless spectators. Then Frum speaks with the historian Geoffrey Kabaservice about political violence, the assassinations and upheavals of the 1960s and 1970s, and what those episodes teach us about the threats facing America today. They revisit the murders that reshaped the era, consider how violence changed the course of politics, and draw out the parallels and differences between then and now: from polarization to technology to the shifting role of institutions. Finally, Frum closes with a book talk on Emily Brontë’s Wuthering Heights, reflecting on its enduring power and dark insights into human nature.  Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with reflections on President Donald Trump’s repeated delays to enforce the congressionally mandated TikTok ban. He explains how Trump’s pattern of ignoring laws, whether by inventing tariffs, bypassing Congress on spending, or granting de facto immunity to allies, erodes the foundation of our constitutional government.  Then David is joined by the historian Kyle Harper, author of Plagues Upon the Earth, for a conversation about infectious disease and the politics of vaccination. They trace humanity’s long struggle against killers such as smallpox, polio, and measles, and the scientific breakthroughs that transformed life expectancy. Harper explains how mistrust, misinformation, and polarization have fueled a resurgence of measles in the 2020s, even after it had been eradicated in the United States. Kyle and David also discuss what Rome can teach us about living with plagues, why public trust is essential to public health, and why the next pandemic will find us less prepared than we were for COVID-19. Finally, David ends the podcast with a discussion of Carl Schmitt’s The Concept of the Political. He examines how Schmitt’s claim that politics is defined by the division of friend and enemy is influencing modern authoritarian thinkers in America. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum examines how President Donald Trump’s foreign-policy decisions are undermining U.S. alliances and global credibility. He discusses incidents including the detainment of South Korean workers in Georgia and alleged covert operations in Greenland. Frum argues that these actions reflect ego-driven weakness rather than leadership, and explores the broader consequences for America’s international standing. Then Frum is joined by the Georgetown law professor and former Pentagon adviser Rosa Brooks, who also served as a D.C. reserve police officer. They discuss Trump’s deployment of 2,200 National Guard troops to Washington, D.C.; the limits of militarized policing; constitutional concerns; and the dangers of masked, unidentified federal agents. Brooks warns listeners that such tactics could normalize authoritarian behavior and set troubling precedents for future elections. Frum closes with a new book segment, with this week’s on Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein, in which he discusses how the novel’s unreliable narrators highlight the importance of critical reading in an era of declining literacy. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum discusses recent questions about President Donald Trump’s health and explores what a potential J. D. Vance presidency might mean for the country. He contrasts Trump’s impulsive, ego-driven style with Vance’s methodical, ideologically driven approach, examining how each wields power, pursues personal and political goals, and shapes domestic and foreign policy. Frum explains why understanding these differences is crucial for anticipating the challenges ahead. Then Frum is joined by Jonathan Rauch, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and the author of The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth. They discuss how societies decide what’s real, why disinformation has become a central political strategy, and living in a “reality-based community.” Rauch explains the dangers of the “fire hose of falsehood,” why authoritarian regimes weaponize confusion, and why, even amid today’s “machinery of lies,” reality still has the final word. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with reflections on the misuse of history in today’s politics. He argues that fascism, once thought to have been buried by the Second World War, has reemerged in modern forms, thriving on the endless hunt for enemies, stoking culture wars, and exploiting new technologies. And he explains why the best antidotes remain liberty, equality, and sometimes humor. Then David is joined by Mary Beard, one of the world’s foremost scholars of Rome and author of the New York Times best seller Emperor of Rome, for a conversation about what the ancient world can teach us about current politics. They discuss how Roman emperors wielded power, why excess and corruption were baked into the system, and how fragile even the strongest-seeming regimes can be. Beard explains why myths about Roman grandeur persist, what daily life actually looked like under the empire, and what lessons modern democracies should (and should not) draw from Rome’s rise and fall. We've put together a short survey to learn more about our audience. It would be very helpful if you could take a few minutes to answer it at theatlantic.com/survey. As a thank you, the first 100 respondents will get a $20 gift card.  Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at ⁠TheAtlantic.com/Listener⁠. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum begins with reflections on how Donald Trump’s sweeping immigration crackdown has transformed America into what he calls a “society based on fear.” Frum warns that the president’s methods risk discrediting not just immigration enforcement, but also law, police, and the very idea of democratic legitimacy. Then Frum is joined by his Atlantic colleague Caitlin Dickerson, whose Pulitzer Prize–winning reporting has laid bare the human and institutional realities of immigration enforcement. They discuss her latest investigation into the staggering expansion of ICE and the One Big Beautiful Bill Act, which has supercharged its budget to unprecedented levels. Dickerson explains how billions of dollars in new funding are fueling mass detention, empowering private-prison companies, and reshaping U.S. diplomacy while failing to solve the core challenges of immigration.  Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with reflections on the upcoming 80th anniversary of the end of World War II and what Donald Trump’s recent statements about “Victory Day” reveal about how America is forgetting the meaning of peace, cooperation, and democratic leadership. Then David is joined by Glenn Kelman, CEO of Redfin, for a candid look at the broken state of the U.S. housing market. Kelman explains why both buyers and sellers are miserable, how pandemic-era mortgage rates have frozen supply, and why the next generation is increasingly stuck, unable to buy, and often unable to move. They discuss zoning reform, immigration, housing deterioration, and why, despite the bleak outlook, Kelman still believes there’s hope for long-term correction—if America can relearn how to build. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with a warning about the crumbling of U.S. support for Ukraine under President Donald Trump. He lays out how the Trump administration has slowed the flow of weapons to Ukraine, undermined sanctions on Russia, and made empty promises about future action while spending more money upgrading Trump’s private jet than aiding Ukraine’s defense. Then David is joined by the journalist Tim Mak, reporting from Kyiv, and Adrian Karatnycky, a senior fellow with the Atlantic Council’s Eurasia Center, for a conversation about Ukraine’s resilience in the face of U.S. abandonment. They discuss why the Ukrainian people remain united, how battlefield conditions have evolved, and why no politician—Ukrainian or American—can force a peace that rewards Russian aggression. They also talk about President Volodymyr Zelensky’s controversial anti-corruption reforms, the surge of youth-led protests, and whether Ukraine’s Western allies truly understand what’s at stake. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum examines how protectionism, once a fringe idea in U.S. politics, became central to modern Republican trade policy. He traces how President Donald Trump made tariffs a political weapon, and why these policies continue to carry political appeal despite their economic cost. Then David is joined by the historian and trade expert Doug Irwin for a conversation about what tariffs actually do. Irwin explains how protectionist policies have repeatedly backfired in American history, why they persist, and how the U.S. abandoned the bipartisan free-trade consensus that lasted for nearly a century. The two discuss who really pays for tariffs, why tariffs rarely achieve their stated goals, and what it would take to rebuild political support for open markets.  Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with a warning about President Donald Trump’s escalating attacks on press freedom. David discusses Trump’s lawsuit against The Wall Street Journal, explains how Trump is using presidential power to suppress coverage of his alleged ties to Jeffrey Epstein, and argues that Trump’s second term represents a deeper threat to the First Amendment than anything seen in modern American history. Then David is joined by Representative Ritchie Torres of New York for a conversation about the future of the Democratic Party. Torres explains why the Democratic center has become too passive; how the far left gained influence through intensity, not majorities; and why slogans alone can’t solve America’s affordability crisis. They discuss the rise of performative politics, the need for a serious governing agenda, and Torres’s personal journey from public housing to Congress. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at theAtlantic.com/listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with a warning about President Donald Trump’s decision to shut down the conversation around the federal investigation into Jeffrey Epstein. David explains why Trump’s move has triggered backlash from parts of his own base and why it reveals a deeper political fracture inside the MAGA movement. Then David is joined by the former FBI counterintelligence official Peter Strzok, who shares his insights on what’s happening at the bureau during Trump’s second term. Strzok, who is still engaged in a lawsuit with the government over his 2018 firing, explains how Trump loyalists such as the FBI’s director, Kash Patel, and its deputy director, Dan Bongino, are dismantling the agency’s national-security functions: purging experts, sidelining investigations, and leaving the United States dangerously vulnerable to terrorism, foreign espionage, and cyberattacks. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at theAtlantic.com/listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with a warning about the deep implications of President Donald Trump’s “One Big Beautiful Bill”—not only for Americans’ rights and freedoms, but also for the future of American economic strength. David argues that Trump’s budget and tax policies are reshaping the U.S. economy in ways that will leave the country poorer, less innovative, and more isolated from the rest of the world than we were before. David is then joined by George Conway for a conversation about the dangers our legal institutions are facing in the Trump presidency. They discuss Conway’s journey from corporate litigator to outspoken critic of Trump, the dangers of relying on courts to restrain executive lawlessness, and the failure of Congress to uphold its constitutional duties. Conway also explains why our legal system, even when functioning properly, may be structurally incapable of stopping a president who is determined to ignore the law.  Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at theAtlantic.com/listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with a warning: The United States’ support for Ukraine is collapsing under Donald Trump’s second term—and with it, the global system of peace and security that has protected Americans for decades. David explains what Trump’s latest actions reveal about his motivations, and why Ukraine’s survival may now depend on the outcome of the 2024 election. Then David is joined by the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine and now Democratic congressional candidate Bridget Brink, who served under both President Biden and President Trump. They discuss the true stakes of the war, the failure of the Trump administration to develop or execute a coherent Ukraine policy, and why Brink ultimately chose to resign her post. She offers a firsthand account of life in Kyiv during the early days of the full-scale invasion, the dangers facing American diplomats in war zones, and the institutional breakdowns now threatening U.S. foreign policy from within.  Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at theAtlantic.com/listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Atlantic’s David Frum opens this episode of The David Frum Show with a statement about Trump’s Iran strikes. The strikes fulfilled commitments of past presidents, who have long maintained that the U.S. would not allow an Iranian nuclear bomb. David also makes the point that Trump, who has already abused peacetime powers, is now a wartime president, a role that will allow him to wield even larger authority—and do even greater damage.  Then David is joined by the author and editor Tina Brown for a conversation about the disorienting effects of extreme wealth. They discuss how billionaires often become detached from reality, how philanthropy is used to consolidate image and influence, and how Brown’s personal experience with Donald Trump shaped her understanding of his ego and evolution. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at theAtlantic.com/listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum urges an end to wishful thinking about Iran, and a focus instead on the regime’s threatening words and murderous actions. Then David is joined by the Carnegie Endowment scholar Karim Sadjadpour for an urgent conversation about the internal decay of Iran’s theocracy. They discuss the survival instincts of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the regime’s obsession with martyrdom and repression, the true cost of the Islamic Republic’s nuclear ambitions, and the disconnect between the revolutionary slogans of the state and the aspirations of Iranian society. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at theAtlantic.com/listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with a warning about how President Donald Trump could be testing a strategy to subvert the 2026 midterm elections by creating chaos to justify his use of extreme executive power. David also discusses how Trump’s feud with Elon Musk reveals a deeper truth about power in the postdemocracy Republican Party. Then David is joined by Arizona Senator Ruben Gallego to discuss how Democrats can win the votes of young men, the importance of free trade and patriotism in today’s Democratic Party, and how Gallego has been so successful with Latino voters at a time when Latino men are trending so strongly Republican. David closes the episode with thoughts on Trump’s $100 million birthday military parade in Washington, D.C. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at theAtlantic.com/listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with a warning about how Donald Trump’s second term has brought a more systematic and punishing assault on American media, through regulatory pressure, retaliatory lawsuits, and corporate intimidation. Then David is joined by the legendary newspaper editor Marty Baron to discuss how today’s media institutions are struggling to stand up to power. Baron reflects on his tenure at The Washington Post, the new pressures facing owners such as Jeff Bezos, and how Trump has turned retribution into official policy. They also examine how internal newsroom culture, social media, and a loss of connection to working-class America have weakened public trust in journalism. David closes the episode by reflecting on the recent media overhyping of President Joe Biden’s age issues. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at theAtlantic.com/listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, David opens with a Memorial Day message about corruption and extortion in the Trump White House, including revelations about meme-coin pay-to-play schemes and foreign-financed golf courses. Then David is joined by his Atlantic colleague George Packer to discuss Packer’s new profile of Vice President J. D. Vance. They examine Vance’s sharp political turn from thoughtful memoirist to contemptuous shape-shifter, and debate whether Vance believes what he says or just knows what power demands.  David closes the episode with a reflection on Edward Luce’s new biography of Zbigniew Brzezinski and what Brzezinski’s legacy says about American power today. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at theAtlantic.com/listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices