Claim OwnershipThe Fathom Podcast
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For a deeper understanding of Israel and the region.
19 Episodes
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In the third episode of the Fathom series ‘Those who tried: Conversations with the Peace Processors’, Yair Hirschfeld recalls his role in the process which led to the Oslo Accords. Hirschfeld argues, based on his experience in Oslo and subsequent peace tracks, Hirschfeld argues that attempts to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict decisively, and all in one go, do not work. A gradualist approach is what is needed, he says, arguing, ‘it’s very simple: all or nothing doesn’t work, and gradualism is very difficult but does work.’
Hirschfeld first became involved in peacemaking in February 1979 when he met Chancellor Bruno Kreisky, who asked him to become involved in Israeli-Palestinian dialogue and sent a proposal of his to the Crown Prince of Jordan and in October 1980. That process ultimately led to the Madrid Conference, and you were one of two Israeli academics who first met with PLO leaders in Oslo, Norway, which subsequently set the scene for the Oslo Accords. Hirschfeld was one of two Israeli academics (alongside the late Ron Pundak) who began unofficial and secret discussions with Palestinian officials in Oslo that led to the Declaration of Principles between Israel and the PLO. He was intimately involved in creating the Beilin-Abu Mazen agreement and worked with the parties throughout the 1990s. Since then, he has continued to work on track 2 initiatives. He recently published The Israeli–Palestinian Peace Process - A Personal Insider's Account.
Veteran negotiator Ambassador Dennis Ross speaks to Fathom about his experiences of multiple thwarted Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations. A scholar and diplomat with more than two decades of experience in Soviet and Middle East policy, Ambassador Dennis Ross played a leading role in shaping U.S. involvement in the Middle East peace process, dealing directly with the parties as the U.S. point man on the peace process in both the George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton administrations.
Azar Gat, Ezer Weizman Chair for National Security at Tel Aviv University, speaks to Calev Ben-Dor about the war in Gaza. Gat argues that failing to fully defeat Hamas would constitute an existential threat to Israel: not in the sense that Hamas alone can destroy Israel, but in the impact that Israel’s inability to defeat those responsible for 7 October would have on the psychological security of Israelis. He asserts that while it is not possible to remove Hamas as an idea, or even as a guerrilla movement, it can – and has largely already been – successfully defeated as a governing entity.
Counter-terror expert Matthew Levitt speaks to Fathom about Hamas’s vision and strategy. What is Hamas’s strategy for the destruction of Israel? Is it strategically divided? What are the chances of a rapprochement with Fatah? What does Levitt mean by Hamas following the ‘Hezbollah model’?
Fathom speaks to Toby Greene about two articles co-authored with Professor Jonathan Rynhold and dealing with the political future of a post-Hamas Gaza: ‘Beyond Humanitarian Aid: A Plan for Gazan Civilians Is a Strategic Necessity for Israel’ and ‘URGENT: An Israeli Strategy for a Post-Hamas Gaza’. Despite Prime Minister Netanyahu’s repeated denial that Israel will support the involvement of the Palestinian Authority (PA), Greene says that ‘if you don’t want continued Hamas rule and permanent Israeli occupation you have to work with what tools are available (which is a potentially reformed PA).’ Greene advocates the kind of technocratic approach once seen under former Prime Minister Fayyad, saying ‘a key component of getting from where we are now to Palestinian statehood is credible bottom up state-building institutions albeit within a credible diplomatic path that can work in concert with it.’ Toby is a Visiting Fellow in the Middle East Centre at the London School of Economics and a Lecturer in the Department for Political Studies at Bar Ilan University. He is the author of Blair, Labour & Palestine: Conflicting Views on Middle East Peace After 9/11. He is also a former deputy editor of Fathom.
Journalist and Middle East analyst Jonathan Spyer talks to Fathom about the Iranian threat and the Western response to it. Spyer is director of research at the Middle East Forum and the author of The Transforming Fire: The Rise of the Israel-Islamist Conflict. He is a veteran of the Israel-Hezbollah war of 2006 and has been a regular contributor to Fathom for a decade.
Jack Omer-Jackaman and Calev Ben-Dor interview Fania Oz-Salzberger, an Israeli writer, history professor and public intellectual. They discussed her thoughts about 7 October, the ensuing war, the Israeli government and her disappointment with parts of the international left. Oz-Salzberger is Professor Emerita at the University of Haifa Law School and previously taught at Princeton, Monash University, Munich University etc. Her field is the history of political thought and her books include Jews and Words, coauthored with Amos Oz. She is a peace and democracy activist.
Jack Omer-Jackaman and Calev Ben-Dor interviewed Einat Wilf. They discussed Wilf’s essay ‘Zionism as Therapy’, which seeks to correct anti-Zionism’s success in divorcing Zionism from its intellectual and historical origins. Wilf is a leading thinker on Israel, Zionism, foreign policy and education. She was a member of the Israeli Parliament from 2010 to 2013, where she served as Chair of the Education Committee and as a Member of the Foreign Affairs and Defence Committee. She is the author of seven books, including We Should All Be Zionists.
Calev Ben-Dor and Jack Omer-Jackaman interviewed Michael Milshtein, a leading expert on the Palestinian arena. They discussed the failures which led to 7 October – which Milshtein characterises as a failure of understanding as much as intelligence – and the current state of Israel’s war in Gaza.
Jack Omer-Jackaman speaks to Mohammad Darawshe and Michal Sela of Givat Haviva, an Israeli civil society organisation working for social change.
Jack Omer-Jackaman speaks with Tareq Abu Hamed and Eliza Mayo of the Arava Institute for Environmental Studies, an academic research centre dedicated to providing the Middle East with a new generation of sophisticated professionals to address the region’s environmental challenges with richer and more innovative peace-building solutions.
Alan Johnson and Jack Omer-Jackaman speak to renowned writer and peace activist Gershon Baskin. They discuss his recent Times of Israel article, co-authored with Samer Sinijlawi, a Palestinian political activist, entitled ‘The Necessary Peace – The Peace of No Choice’, in which Baskin lays out his vision for a two state solution after Hamas is defeated.
Calev Ben-Dor speaks to Professor Jonathan Rynhold, head of the department of Political Studies at Bar Ilan University, about President Biden’s policy on Israel’s war with Hamas. Rynhold is the author of The Arab-Israeli Conflict in American Political Culture, and speaks here about Biden’s personal, ‘visceral’ commitment to Israel, his vision of a foreign policy in defence of the liberal democratic order, and the potential impact of his Israel policy on the next US presidential election.
Jack Omer-Jackaman and Calev Ben-Dor talk to Lebanon expert Hanin Ghaddar, Friedman Senior Fellow at the Washington Institute and author of Hezbollahland: Mapping Dahiya and Lebanon’s Shia Community. Ghaddar explains why Hezbollah has been persuaded not to escalate the conflict on Israel’s northern border, how this has impacted the reputation of its leader Nasrallah, and the chances of a future Israeli pre-emptive strike.
Alan Johnson and Jack Omer-Jackaman speak with John Lyndon, Executive Director of ALLMEP (The Alliance for Middle East Peace). John speaks powerfully on how 7 October and the war in Gaza have transformed the peacebuilding field and what is needed from both sides to advance the peace process.
Alan Johnson and Calev Ben Dor talk to Dr Shany Mor, lecturer in political thought at Reichman University in Herzliya, about his recent essay in Mosaic Magazine, “Ecstasy and Amnesia in the Gaza Strip”. Mor places the Hamas pogrom of October 7 in the context of three other attempted eliminationist struggles against Israel – the 1948 War of Independence, the 1967 Six Day War, and the 2000 Palestinian Intifada.
Fathom Deputy Editors Jack Omer-Jackaman and Calev Ben-Dor talk to Dr Rob Geist Pinfold, Lecturer in Peace and Security at Durham University and the author of Understanding Territorial Withdrawal: Israeli Occupations and Exits (2023, Oxford University Press). Rob assesses the impact of Israel’s 2005 withdrawal from the Gaza Strip on the Hamas pogrom of October 7th. Rob also analyses Israel’s previous territorial withdrawals and his thesis that they have not made Israel more vulnerable.
Fathom editors Alan Johnson and Jack Omer-Jackaman talk to Dr Ahron Bregman, Senior Teaching Fellow at King’s College London, about the impact of the Hamas pogrom on Israeli society, the intelligence oversights which failed to anticipate it, and Israel’s range of possible responses in Gaza.
This new Fathom podcast series is called Those Who Tried: Conversations with the Peace Processors. We will seek the views of people who have been intimately involved in the Middle East peace process. We're delighted to start the series with a discussion with Elliott Abrams. During the George W. Bush presidency, Elliott was Deputy National Security Adviser and an NSC staff member in the White House.
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