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The Flip

Author: Justin Norman

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The Flip is an editorial-style podcast exploring contextually relevant insights from entrepreneurs and investors changing the status quo in Africa. The name The Flip comes from the opportunity to flip the script – question some of the pervasive narratives on entrepreneurship, challenge the ubiquity of Silicon Valley thought leadership, and champion the entrepreneurs building a future inspired by Africa. Produced and hosted by Johannesburg-based entrepreneur and American expat Justin Norman. Sayo Folawiyo is the executive producer and b-mic.
27 Episodes
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Our exploration of the entrepreneurs and startups digitizing analog and fragmented industries takes us to Nigeria, for a conversation with Helium Health's Co-founder and CEO Goke Olubusi. Helium's electronic medical records are providing the digital infrastructure for healthcare sectors across Africa, enabling a variety of stakeholders to make data-driven decisions.4:26 - First question: what does the state of healthcare look like, and how is Helium Health solving the industry's problems?9:16 - Helium's origin story. 11:48 - On the big picture solutions that are required to have the type of impact in healthcare the continent needs. 13:12 - A discussion on the benefits and opportunity of an open and operable approach.15:46 - Helium's geographic and product expansion strategies.19:42 - The impact of improving and opportunity to improve the efficiency of healthcare spending in Africa.  This episode is part of our conversational series sponsored by  MFS Africa. MFS Africa’s competition is with cash, and throughout this series, we’ll feature other startups and entrepreneurs who are digitizing, better organizing, and aggregating analog and fragmented industries.
On October 15, 2020, Paystack and Stripe announced the acquisition of the former by the latter, in a deal reported to be worth over $200 million. This marks Stripe's largest acquisition to date and is an incredibly meaningful exit for the African tech ecosystem. To unpack the deal, we spoke to Shola Akinlade, Paystack's Co-founder and CEO, and Matt Henderson, Stripe's Business Lead for Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. 3:43 - We start our story of the Stripe acquisition of Paystack in the Winter of 2016. Paystack becomes the first Nigerian startup to participate in Y Combinator, where Shola is introduced to Stripe Co-founder and CEO Patrick Collison. Stripe leads Paystack's Series A. 6:02 - As both companies - and their relationship with each other - grew, the idea of an acquisition arose naturally.8:10 - Why is Stripe interested in Paystack, and Africa as a region?10:38 - What does the future for Paystack look like now that it has joined Stripe?13:40 - We explore the growth opportunity for Paystack's merchants, as it expands its geographic coverage.15:55 - On Paystack's customer intimacy and product roadmap. 19:44 - As always, a reflective conversation between Justin Norman and Sayo Folawiyo on this episode’s topic.For more episodes, visit us at https://theflip.africa or follow us on twitter @theflipafrica. 
The very nature of a high-growth startup means that the company is always growing and hiring at a rapid rate. And for African startups, in particular, the talent question is even more acute, given the general challenges of sourcing for select roles, as well as the difficulty in competing for talent with other startups, multinationals, and companies elsewhere in the world. In this episode, we unpack the talent and recruiting situation for venture-backed startups and growth-stage companies - how do we source for newer types of roles, like product and growth? Do we hire for aptitude and train up? Do we go to where there is more talent? How does remote work - particularly during COVID-19 - play a role here?2:50 - We discuss the current recruiting landscape with Toun Tunde-Anjous, Founder of The People Practice. 4:38 - Charles Sekwalor, CEO of Movemeback, shares his views on the talent question, and the opportunities with startups and growth-stage companies on the continent. 8:17 - We explore startup recruitment strategy with Ijeoma Oyeyinka, Helium Health's Head of HR. 10:26 - Many startups, including Helium Health, use outside recruiters, as well. Toun's The People Practice is one such firm. 11:20 - We har from Ijeoma & Mansi Babyloni, Flutterwave's Global Head of People Strategy on the hiring competition, and the pitches they make to mission-driven talent.15:12 - Mansi & Toun on compensation and their experiences with African startups offering equity packages. 17:59 - On remote working dynamics and the opportunity to tap into a wider talent pool, particularly due to COVID-19.20:46 - A discussion on training & development of talent, and in particular less experienced talent, on the continent. 24:23 - We hear from Aaron Fu, on the Venture for Africa fellowship program, and their endeavor to de-risk an exploration into the African tech and startup ecosystem.28:13 - As always, a reflective conversation between Justin Norman and Sayo Folawiyo on this episode's topic. 
In this episode, we explore and unpack the relationship between the tech ecosystem and the media. We'll seek answers to questions such as - what roles do media publications play in the ecosystem? How does this differ between international and local publications? What are the key considerations for the media in doing this work, particularly from a talent and business model perspective? What about companies creating their own content - what is their motivation and what can be learned? And, why is there seemingly a contentious relationship between African tech and the media?2:27 - We talk public relations utility and strategy, with Wimbart's Jessica Hope. 6:47 - What role does international tech media play in the ecosystem? We hear from TechCrunch contributing writer Jake Bright.12:05 - A discussion with Tomiwa Aladekomo, of Big Cabal Media, the parent company to TechCabal, on the publications' objectives and challenges. 17:03 - We explore how one publication, Stears Business, is tackling information scarcity, talent, and business model challenges in Nigeria, with Preston Ideh.23:05 - We speak with Paystack's Emmanuel Quartey on the company's editorial approach and hiring content to solve a problem. 28:23 - Is there a contentious relationship between African tech and the media? Are those in the ecosystem playing their part in sharing with requisite openness and transparency? 30:41 - A retrospective conversation between Sayo Folawiyo, Justin Norman, and this episode's co-producer Osarumen Osamuyi, on the environmental challenges of building sustainable media businesses and meeting the expectations of the tech ecosystem. 
This season we've talked about the relationship between African tech and other emerging markets across the Global South, as well as with China. In this episode, we talk about the ecosystem's relationship Japan - and in particular, the interest Japanese investors and corporates have in innovations from the continent. 1:33 - Satoshi Shinada and Rio Yamawaki on the macro situation in Japan, and why Japanese investors are interested in African tech. Satoshi and Rio are GPs at Kepple Africa Ventures, one of the most active VCs on the continent. 5:58 - The primary reason why Japanese corporates are interested in investing on the continent is to form strategic partnerships and bring African innovation back with them. 9:43 - We explore a case study - the investment in Kenyan startup PayGo Energy by Saisan, a Japanese multinational gas company. We hear from PayGo's Co-founder and CEO Nick Quintong.14:48 - A reflective conversation between Sayo Folawiyo and Justin Norman, on the value of Kepple, not only in connecting the dots, but in seeing and knowing which dots to connect between Japan and the continent, and on the opportunity for technology export. 
In this episode, we explore the evolution of mobile financial services and the opportunity to deepen financial inclusion in African markets. This opportunity exists for mobile network operators, as well fintechs like PalmPay, backed by hardware manufacturer Transsion, whose smartphone brands - Tecno, Itel, and Infinix - account for over 50% of smartphone devices on the continent.1:55 - We explore the evolution from USSD-led Mobile Money 1.0 to smartphone-led Mobile Money 2.0, with Hover's Wiza Jalakasi.5:11 - Chris Williamson, the Head of M-Pesa at Vodacom Group, describes the future of M-Pesa and mobile financial services, and the role M-Pesa wishes to play to broaden the use cases and lay the rails for others in the ecosystem to build on top of.10:27 - We also hear from Ramatoulaye Adama Diallo, the CEO of Orange Money Senegal, on Orange's approach to increasing the utilization of mobile financial services, and their role in the development of the tech ecosystem.14:24 - While telcos have an outsize advantage from a distribution and customer perspective, so too does Transsion. We speak to PalmPay's Sofia Zab on how the fintech is leveraging their strategic investment from Transsion to integrate financial services into the hardware, and on the work they are doing to build out the digital use cases for its users. 20:16 - Where are there opportunities for startups to partner with MNOs or manufacturers, and how do they go about developing said partnerships? We hear from two emerging market fintech veterans - Adia Sowho and Hayden Simmons. 26:05 - As always, a reflective discussion between Sayo Folawiyo and Justin Norman - this week, on the differences between and opportunities for telco-led versus hardware-led mobile financial services.
This week, we explore a hypothesis - that the lessons and models from Chinese tech companies have merit in African markets, given certain similarities between China’s development and the current conditions on the continent. 2:06 - DFS Lab's Stephen Deng on the experience of Chinese entrepreneurs and investors, and the lessons from leapfrogs in China that may have merit in Africa.5:37 - We hear from Laura Li, VP of Investments of Future Hub, an early-stage investor and accelerator backed by Transsion, the number one cell phone manufacturer on the continenet, and parent company to Tecno, Itel and Infinix.7:43 - A discussion with Vincent Li, the CEO of Future Hub, and Laura on the opportunities they see on the continent, in ecommerce, logistics, social media, and more. 14:50 - Another Transsion-backed company, PalmPay, is also leveraging Transsion's distribution and insights from China to grow in Nigeria and beyond. We hear from Sofia Zab, PalmPay's Global Head of Commercial & Marketing.20:27 - As always, a reflective conversation between Justin Norman and Sayo Folawiyo, on social commerce and superapps. 24:37 - Part two with Justin and Sayo, on mobile money-enabled business models.
Last episode, we went on a hypothetical startup journey from idea to exit. In this episode, we go on a real one.In June of 2020, MFS Africa announced the acquisition of Beyonic. Together, the combined company of 95 employees now enables mobile money interoperability between markets and mobile network operators, and offers a suite of tools for SMEs, in 30-plus African markets. We go inside the acquisition - how it came together, why it makes sense, and what it means -  both for the two companies and their stakeholders and for the ecosystem as a whole. 2:27 - Introducing some of the main players in the deal - Dare Okoudjou, the Founder & CEO of MFS Africa, Luke Kyohere, Founder of Beyonic, Carina Rumberger, CEO of Beyonic and Rachel Balsham, Deputy CEO of MFS Africa.3:43 - We go back to 2009, when Dare left MTN to start MFS Africa. What was it like running the business in those early days building the foundation and infrastructure for mobile money usage across the continent? 7:55 - Luke takes us back to the beginning of Beyonic, where he saw an opportunity to build out tools for SMEs using mobile money.11:22 - In 2018, after a sizeable fundraise, MFS Africa set out to scale. Two of their strategies included a) exploring tools for SMEs, and b) making minority investments in other complementary fintech startups across the continent. As these two strategies converged, Dare and Luke re-connected to talk fundraise. 16:11 - The discussions minority investment quickly became a majority investment and then a full acquisition. Dare, Rachel, Luke and Carina recount their respective thoughts on strategy, and how and why a full acquisition became the deal they pursued together. 19:39 - We get into the weeds a bit on tactics - what was the sell-in process like to each respective company's employees, shareholders and customers? 26:09 - On integration - of the teams and of the products. 30:07 - What does this deal - fintech consolidation, an African fintech acquiring another African fintech - mean not only for the newly combined company but for the African tech ecosystem as a whole? 
This episode, we go on a hypothetical startup fundraising journey, from idea to exit. 2:04 - At the earliest stage, angel and venture investing is quite subjective, says Zachariah George, angel investor and Managing Director of LaunchAfrica. 3:46 - Because of the subjectivity, metrics and valuations don't matter as much at this stage. We hear from Chidinma Iwueke, Partner at pre-seed fund Microtraction, on their standard deal terms.4:56 - A discussion with Andreata Muforo on how TLcom Capital approaches seed and Series A stage valuations.8:56 - We hear from Cikü Mugambi of the IFC's Disruptive Technologies and Venture Capital team, how they leverage comparables of other emerging market startups in their portfolio to value prospective investments in Africa. 11:12 - Andreata and Cikü share their views on the exit paths for their portfolio companies. 13:17 - After venture capital comes private equity, and a discussion with Helios Investment Partners' Fope Adelowo.19:37 - We hear from Victor Basta on what mergers and acquisition opportunities for tech-enabled companies, and discuss how founders and CEOs need to prepare for an exit. 27:08 - As always, a reflective conversation between Justin Norman and Sayo Folawiyo.
We dedicate this episode to Fahim Saleh, the Founder and CEO of Gokada, who was killed in New York City on July 13th. Our heartfelt condolences go out to his family and the entire Gokada team.This year, Nigerian fintech companies Paga and Migo are expanding to Latin America, to Mexico and Brazil, respectively. Another Nigerian startup, Gokada, was launched by an entrepreneur who built a successful ride-hailing company in Bangladesh, where there was a similar set of market conditions. In this episode, we explore the similarities - and the opportunities - between emerging markets across the Global South. 3:57 - Why is Paga expanding to Mexico? And why is Migo expanding to Brazil? We hear from Paga's CEO Tayo Oviosu, and Migo's former VP of Growth, Adia Sowho. 7:42 - Fahim Saleh launched Gokada after successfully founding a ride-hailing company in Bangladesh. What was it about Nigeria, and his experience in Bangladesh, that compelled him to move to Nigeria to build Gokada?12:39 - Investors like Cikü Mugambi with IFC's venture capital team, in evaluating deals are increasingly looking to markets in Latin America and South Asia for comparables and insights. 14:32 - Sayo Folawiyo and Justin Norman sit down to reflect on this topic, and discuss the notion of market size and under penetration of financial services as the core driver of opportunity for startups in Africa, Latin America and South Asia alike.
We've had prior discussions on Africa's market size (S1E5) and on Africa-focused investors' pursuit of scale (S1E7). Both topics ultimately lead to the same place for startups: geographic expansion. What are the considerations and implications? 2:05 - Keith Davies, former CFO of Zoona, shares cautions startups to be careful because expansion introduces a lot of the complexity for the business.4:35 - Operational considerations of expansion, with Wiza Jalakasi, Head of Business Development at Hover Developer Services.5:31 - It's crucial to pitch to investors an expansion and growth strategy that you can actually execute on, says Paga Group CEO Tayo Oviosu.9:29 - A discussion with M&A advisory firm Magister Advisor's Victor Basta, on expansion, fundraising and exits. 13:52 - What does pan-African really mean? with The Subtext's Osarumen Osamuyi.15:29 - And if there are few truly pan-African startups, perhaps there are better markets to expand to outside of Africa.18:07 - A reflective conversation on this topic between Justin Norman and The Flip's b-mic and Executive Producer, Sayo Folawiyo.
In this episode, we explore high-touch venture investing models - in particular, venture development and talent investing, as well as peer-selected investment. 2:16 - an introduction to accelerator programs and their objectives, with Catalyst Fund's Aaron Fu.3:47 - a discussion with Adedana Ashebir on Village Capital's peer-selected investment model.6:16 - Founders Factory Africa's Lwazi Wali and Sam Sturm on venture building and the merits of a human capital intensive investment model.10:20 - GreenTec Capital Partners takes their venture building model one step further. We hear from Erick Yong on GreenTec's Results for Equity model.16:07 - Then, Catalyst Fund takes their venture building model yet another step further. As Maelis Carraro explains, their program offers venture building as a grant and does not take any equity in the startups in their portfolio. 22:55 - While the aforementioned programs support existing startups, Antler's startup generator investment model brings individuals into a cohort to co-found startups with other participants in the program. We hear from Selam Kebede on the merits of this model for African markets.27:59 - The Flip's founder, Justin Norman and executive producer, Sayo Folawiyo, discuss their takeaways episode, and Sayo shares his experience, from a founder's perspective, as a participant in startup programs.
Introducing The Flip Season Two - the podcast exploring contextually relevant insights from entrepreneurs changing the status quo in Africa. This season, we explore venture building, geographic expansion, valuations and exits, mobile money, emerging markets, China, and much more. Produced and hosted by Justin Norman. Sayo Folawiyo is the executive producer and b-mic.https://www.theflip.africa
They say never waste a good crisis. And while COVID-19 has had a horrible, crippling effect on individuals and economies alike, if there's one positive to the pandemic, perhaps it's that it's compelling and facilitating partnerships to serve the greater good; to bring people together to solve problems that have already existed, but that now have been brought even further to the fore. In this episode, we talk to entrepreneurs who have solved and are solving problems through crisis-induced collaboration.1:52 - We take a look back at a prior crisis-induced collaboration with Ory Okolloh, a Co-founder of Ushahidi, a digital and data mapping platform built in response to post-election violence in Kenya in 2008. 6:23 - Today, the Kenyan tech ecosystem is collaborating on a COVID-19-induced initiative, Safe Hands Kenya. We hear from Peter Njonjo, Co-founder and CEO of Twiga Foods, which is repurposing its existing technology and logistics infrastructure to get essential good in the hands of at-risk Kenyans. 9:06 - Safe Hands Kenya is a community-wide collaboration of both partners and competitors. Sokowatch Kenya CEO Angela Nzioki shares her perspective on the partnership approach, and both Angela and Peter discuss the impact for their respective businesses. 13:01 - Is this period an opportunity to take things even one step further, asks Ory Okolloh.  14:42 - My b-mic, Sayo Folawiyo, and I share our thoughts on this episode and the insights from Ory, Peter and Angela. 
Building Through Crises

Building Through Crises

2020-04-3025:032

As we continue to weather the unprecedented COVID-19 pandemic, and its second order effects on the economy, hat lessons can we learn from those who have lived, survived or even thrived through somewhat similar circumstances in the past? In this episode, we hear stories from three entrepreneurs whose past experiences may be useful for the entrepreneurs of today.2:07 - 'Tokunboh Ishmael, Co-founder and Managing Partner of Alitheia Capital, shares her experience attempting to fundraise during the 2008 Global Financial Crisis. Her firm wound up pivoting to a partnership-centric approach - a strategy which has endured for the past 13 years.8:38 - We hear Appfrica's origin story from its founder, Jon Gosier. Through Tech for Good and other client-based work around the continent, Jon was able to bootstrap Appfrica and ultimately make investments out of the company's balance sheet.14:25 - Much like Jon funded his business and investment activity through cashflow, Craig McLeod, the CEO of BoxCommerce, has bootstrapped his business through service-based revenue. Craig shares how he's built his business to service his clients, while leveraging that revenue to build their main business. The Business Insider article referenced is here: https://www.businessinsider.com/how-long-companies-can-survive-without-bringing-in-money-2020-3?IR=T17:34 - We hear again from 'Tokunboh Ishmael on the resiliency and diversification of one of her firm's portfolio companies, MAX.NG, and the advice she is presently giving her entrepreneurs.20:38 - My b-mic, Sayo Folawiyo, and I discuss this episode, and the way in which Sayo is approaching the situation caused by the COVID-19 pandemic. 
MicroEnsure’s origins date back in 2002 when its founder, Richard Leftley, started asking a simple question of traditional insurance companies – why is it that insurers only create products and services for the wealthy? He never got a good answer. Richard had seen the data on the impact that natural disasters had on human lives in emerging markets – there was clearly a mismatch between risk and access to insurance.Years later, as mobile penetration in these markets increased, MicroEnsure stopped asking its clients three standard questions during the signup process (name, age, and next of kin) – and they signed up 20 million customers in 140 days! They now serve over 60 million customers, 80% of whom had never had insurance prior to MicroEnsure.2:47 – On MicroEnsure’s distribution model.5:48 – How can MicroEnsure not ask any questions of their customers? It comes down to the difference in traditional insurance products versus microinsurance.7:23 – How MicroEnsure leverages its distribution partners to achieve requisite scale.8:17 – Why MicroEnsure went straight to the partnership model as opposed to going direct to the consumer.10:34 – How MicroEnsure leverages their partners’ brands and data to sell their products.13:13 – Richard and Justin discuss misconceptions around customer education and the importance of very simple products.14:54 – The changes to MicroEnsure’s business model and how they fit into the insurance value chain.17:11 – Richard background and the origin story of MicroEnsure.19:52 – MicroEnsure’s business in Africa and key considerations for expansion.23:39 – Market size as a consideration and stories of their business in Malawi and Nigeria.25:00 – The story of MicroEnsure moving from a non-profit, funded by a large grant from the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation to a for-profit, venture-backed company.27:25 – After 20 years as an entrepreneur, Richard shares his general advice for entrepreneurs.
Rebecca Enonchong (@africatechie) is widely known for her evangelism of the African tech ecosystem. But she's much more than merely an evangelist. Rebecca started the US-based enterprise software company in 1999, growing it into a global business, and along the way has co-founded the Africa Business Angels Network, AfriLabs, I/O Spaces, ActivSpaces and more. I was so fortunate to be paid a visit by Rebecca in Johannesburg, where we sat down for a conversation on how to best help entrepreneurs in the ecosystem, her views on doing business in Francophone Africa, her journey as an entrepreneur as the founder and CEO of AppsTech, and about how one particular telecom owes them a lot of money and caused her to miss out on a multi-million dollar exit opportunity.
To solve problems on the continent, entrepreneurs are building sustainable, impact-driven, infrastructure-building, tech-enabled, for-profit companies - how should these companies be funded?In this episode - our third and final episode of our three-part series on venture investing in Africa, and the final episode of Season One, as well, we take a first principles approach to fundraising in Africa, and dive deeper into the opportunities for entrepreneurs to leverage different types of capital and funders to achieve their business' objectives.1:45- We define Venture Capital in the Silicon Valley sense, from Stratechery's What Is a Tech Company?2:48 - A discussion with LifeBank's Temie Giwa-Tubosun, on building a solution in the healthcare space - as a proxy for our exploration into impact-driven, for-profit startups in Africa6:24 - A discussion with MDaaS Global's Genevieve Barnard Oni and Oluwasoga Oni on building tech-enabled, brick and mortar diagnostic centers in Nigeria, and being told by one investor that they weren't "tech enough"10:31 - If the businesses being build to solve problems across Africa are not "tech enough", and if venture capitalists fund tech companies, then what fundraising models should we use? We hear from LaunchLab's Josh Romisher on the variety of investment vehicles used to fund off-grid solar home system ventures. 14:01 - Exploring innovative finance models with the Bertha Centre for Social Innovation and Entrepreneurship's Tine Fisker Henriksen.18:41 - If we're re-thinking investment models, should we also be re-thinking the very nature of finance for emerging markets? With Founders Factory's Lwazi Wali.22:12 - How might we imagine new, yet-to-be -determined models for Africa? Perhaps with the help of a history lesson from Alex Lazarow, global venture capitalist and author of Out-Innovate: How Global Entrepreneurs - from Delhi to Detroit - Are Rewriting the Rules of Silicon Valley.25:17 - As always, Sayo and I share our thoughts.
Venture Capitalists, generally speaking, are looking to fund high-growth ventures that have the potential to scale and achieve virtually infinite returns. But achieving that scale is hard, even more so in Africa, where there are market size questions, fragmented markets, and regulatory considerations. As a result, venture investors are looking for a specific type of founder and entrepreneur - one who has demonstrated the potential to pull it off and achieve the growth and scale investors are seeking.In the African early-stage ecosystem, with its funding scarcity, limited track record, talent shortage, and expansion challenges, how do venture investors reconcile their quest for funding high-growth ventures in this environment?2:24 - defining venture capital, courtesy of Stratechery's Ben Thompson and his blog post What is a Tech Company: https://stratechery.com/2019/what-is-a-tech-company/3:59 - VCs are looking for scale, and talent capable of achieving the desired scale, with Microtraction's Chidinma Iwueke & Dayo Koleowo + TLCom Capital's Ido Sum8:14 - a discussion on scarce deal flow and a lack of investable startups, with Dayo & Digest Africa's Peter Kisadha 10:46 - 4Di Capital's Justin Stanford + Ido talk about the need to balance their portfolios to account for the realities of the African market...11:46 - ...but a balanced portfolio doesn't mean lesser return expectations13:35 - how venture builders like Founders Factory Africa & Lwazi Wali are supporting entrepreneurs through their journey to scale16:14 - GreenTec Capital Partner & Maxime Bayen on their results for equity initiative17:58 - Lwazi + Startupbootcamp Africa's Zachariah George & global venture capitalist Alex Lazarow on achieving incentive alignment through initiatives like corporate VC and evergreen funds23:32 - a discussion with Justin & Sayo on venture investing in Africa
We talk so often of venture capital that it's more or less assumed that raising VC funding is an inextricable part of the entrepreneur's journey. But should it be? What are the purposes for taking in VC money, and what are the considerations? 1:24 - Keith Davies, ex-CFO and Partner at Zoona on the implications of taking VC money3:19 - Integrateme Founder Luke Dominique Warner on their strategic decision to not do a traditional round of VC fundraising 5:24 - EAVCA's Eva Warigia and VC4A's Ben White on attracting local businesses leaders and high net worth individuals to participate in early-stage investment as strategic investors, and connecting foreign investors with different skillsets to local opportunities 8:27 - Startups experience raising money for a strategic and specific purpose, with Farmcrowdy Founder Onyeka Akumah, as well as Keith and Luke10:31 - Riby Founder & CEO Abolore Salami + Keith on strategically and selectively soliciting investors 12:47 - Keith, Onyeka and Yoco's Marcello Schermer on considerations around timelines of raising money, from both foreign and local investors15:11 - Justin and Sayo breakdown the conversation around seeking VC funding, including Sayo's experience fundraising locally for his startup Kandua, and their view on the question of if a startup should be raising money in the first place  
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