The Good Fight

Cass R. Sunstein is currently the Robert Walmsley University Professor at Harvard. His latest book is On Liberalism: In Defense of Freedom. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Cass Sunstein explore critiques from the left and the right, what different strands of liberalism can teach us, and why John Stuart Mill has the answer. We’re delighted to feature this conversation as part of our new series on Liberal Virtues and Values. That liberalism is under threat is now a cliché—yet this has done nothing to stem the global resurgence of illiberalism. Part of the problem is that liberalism is often considered too “thin” to win over the allegiance of citizens, and that liberals are too afraid of speaking in moral terms. Liberalism’s opponents, by contrast, speak to people’s passions and deepest moral sentiments. This series, made possible with the generous support of the John Templeton Foundation, aims to change that narrative. In podcast conversations and long-form pieces, we’ll feature content making the case that liberalism has its own distinctive set of virtues and values that are capable not only of responding to the dissatisfaction that drives authoritarianism, but also of restoring faith in liberalism as an ideology worth believing in—and defending—on its own terms. Email: leonora.barclay@persuasion.community Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! Spotify | Apple | Google X: @Yascha_Mounk & @JoinPersuasion YouTube: Yascha Mounk, Persuasion LinkedIn: Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yascha Mounk and Tyler Cowen also discuss AI and the state of the world economy. Tyler Cowen is an American economist, columnist, and blogger. Cowen is the Holbert L. Harris chair in economics at George Mason University, and is the co-author, with Alex Tabarrok, of the blog Marginal Revolution. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Tyler Cowen discuss the likely economic futures of Europe, Asia, and Africa; how the United States should approach competition with China; and what role young people should ascribe to personal financial advancement in their career choices. ⁠ This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clar⁠⁠i⁠⁠t⁠⁠y⁠⁠.⁠ Please do listen and spread the word about The Good Fight. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following ⁠this link on your phone⁠. Email: podcast@persuasion.community  Website: ⁠http://www.persuasion.community⁠ Podcast production by ⁠Jack Shields⁠, and Brendan Ruberry Connect with us! ⁠Spotify⁠ | ⁠Apple⁠ | ⁠Google⁠ Twitter: ⁠@Yascha_Mounk⁠ & ⁠@joinpersuasion⁠ Youtube: ⁠Yascha Mounk⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠Persuasion Community⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yascha Mounk and Musa Al-Gharbi discuss why so many members of elite groups like to pretend they’re oppressed. Musa al-Gharbi is an assistant professor in the School of Communication and Journalism at Stony Brook University. His most recent book is ⁠We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite⁠. In this week's conversation, Yascha Mounk and Musa Al-Gharbi discuss the tendency of certain elite groups to lay claim to marginalized identities as a form of symbolic capital; the challenges posed by "asymmetric multiculturalism," in which we encourage certain groups to organize along identitarian lines while discouraging others from doing the same; and how we can apply greater consistency to our analysis of social dynamics. ⁠This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clari⁠⁠t⁠⁠y⁠⁠.⁠ Please do listen and spread the word about The Good Fight. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following ⁠this link on your phone⁠. Email: podcast@persuasion.community  Website: ⁠http://www.persuasion.community⁠ Podcast production by ⁠Jack Shields⁠, and Brendan Ruberry Connect with us! ⁠Spotify⁠ | ⁠Apple⁠ | ⁠Google⁠ Twitter: ⁠@Yascha_Mounk⁠ & ⁠@joinpersuasion⁠ Youtube: ⁠Yascha Mounk⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠Persuasion Community⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What transforms reasonable people into an angry mob? Why are we so eager to dismiss those who disagree with us as inherently evil? These are questions which Jonathan Haidt has spent his career trying to answer. One of the world’s most influential social psychologists and a member of Persuasion's Board of Advisors, he argues that a lot of recent cultural shifts are encouraging emotional fragility rather than resilience. A professor of ethical leadership at NYU's Stern School of Business, Haidt seeks to employ moral psychology to promote dialogue rather than division. In this week’s episode of The Good Fight, Yascha Mounk sits down with Jonathan Haidt to discuss psychological differences between the left and the right, the human tendency to discriminate in favor of the in-group, and how to build a less tribal culture and country. Please do listen and spread the word about The Good Fight. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following this link on your phone. Email: goodfightpod@gmail.com Twitter: @Yascha_Mounk Website: http://www.persuasion.community Podcast production by John T. Williams and Rebecca Rashid Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Arlie Hochschild is an author and professor emerita of sociology at the University of California, Berkeley. Her books include Stolen Pride: Loss, Shame, and the Rise of the Right and Strangers in Their Own Land: Anger and Mourning on the American Right. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Arlie Hochschild discuss the fear of empathy among the American left, the impact of the loss of pride among white working class communities, and how to understand the deep story of Latinos who voted for Trump in 2024. ⁠ This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clar⁠⁠i⁠⁠t⁠⁠y⁠⁠.⁠ Please do listen and spread the word about The Good Fight. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following ⁠this link on your phone⁠. Email: podcast@persuasion.community  Website: ⁠http://www.persuasion.community⁠ Podcast production by Jack Shields, and Leonora Barclay Connect with us! ⁠Spotify⁠ | ⁠Apple⁠ | ⁠Google⁠ Twitter: ⁠@Yascha_Mounk⁠ & ⁠@joinpersuasion⁠ Youtube: ⁠Yascha Mounk⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠Persuasion Community⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this week’s conversation, recorded live in D.C. at the “Liberalism for the 21st Century” conference, Yascha Mounk, Francis Fukuyama, Steven Pinker, and Sabina Ćudić discuss Trump’s firings and what this means for the civil service, how to build a positive case for liberalism, and the impact of the rise of AI. Steven Pinker is Johnstone Professor of Psychology at Harvard, an elected member of the National Academy of Sciences, a two-time Pulitzer Prize finalist, a Humanist of the Year, and one of Time’s “100 Most Influential People in the World Today.” His latest book is When Everyone Knows That Everyone Knows...: Common Knowledge and the Mysteries of Money, Power, and Everyday Life. Francis Fukuyama is the Olivier Nomellini Senior Fellow at Stanford University. His latest book is Liberalism and Its Discontents. He is also the author of the “Frankly Fukuyama” column, carried forward from American Purpose, at Persuasion. Sabina Ćudić is a member of the National Parliament of Bosnia and Herzegovina, where she is the president of the Naša stranka political party club. Ćudić also serves as vice president of the Foreign Relations Committee, and is a member of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe in Strasbourg, where she is a vice president of the European liberals. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following this link on your phone. Email: leonora.barclay@persuasion.community Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and John Taylor Williams. Connect with us! Spotify | Apple | Google X: @Yascha_Mounk & @JoinPersuasion YouTube: Yascha Mounk, Persuasion LinkedIn: Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We’re delighted to feature this conversation as part of our new series on Liberal Virtues and Values. That liberalism is under threat is now a cliché—yet this has done nothing to stem the global resurgence of illiberalism. Part of the problem is that liberalism is often considered too “thin” to win over the allegiance of citizens, and that liberals are too afraid of speaking in moral terms. Liberalism’s opponents, by contrast, speak to people’s passions and deepest moral sentiments. This series, made possible with the generous support of the John Templeton Foundation, aims to change that narrative. In podcast conversations and long-form pieces, we'll feature content making the case that liberalism has its own distinctive set of virtues and values that are capable not only of responding to the dissatisfaction that drives authoritarianism, but also of restoring faith in liberalism as an ideology worth believing in—and defending—on its own terms. David Enoch is professor of the philosophy of law at Oxford, and a professor of law and philosophy at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He is the author of Taking Morality Seriously: A Defense of Robust Realism. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and David Enoch explore why liberalism is being defended in the wrong way, why we should be moral objectivists, and how to fight for liberal values. Note: This episode was recorded on July 14, 2025. This conversation was made possible through the support of Grant 63690 from the John Templeton Foundation. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of the John Templeton Foundation. Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! Spotify | Apple | Google X: @Yascha_Mounk & @JoinPersuasion YouTube: Yascha Mounk, Persuasion LinkedIn: Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yascha Mounk and Christine Rosen discuss the societal consequences of always being online. Christine Rosen is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. She is also a monthly columnist for Commentary magazine, one of the cohosts of The Commentary Magazine Daily Podcast, a fellow at the University of Virginia’s Institute for Advanced Studies in Culture, and senior editor at The New Atlantis.  In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Christine Rosen discuss the perils of online dating, the impact of public shaming, and why the internet makes it harder to develop a sense of self. Podcast production by Jack Shields and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! ⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Apple⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Google⁠⁠ X: ⁠⁠@Yascha_Mounk⁠⁠ & ⁠⁠@JoinPersuasion⁠⁠ YouTube: ⁠⁠Yascha Mounk⁠⁠, ⁠⁠Persuasion⁠⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠⁠Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Miles Taylor is a national security expert. Based in Washington, D.C., he is editor of the recently launched newsletter Treason on Substack. Taylor previously served as chief of staff at the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, where he published an “Anonymous” essay in The New York Times, blowing the whistle on presidential misconduct. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Miles Taylor discuss to what extent the “adults in the room” made a difference in Donald Trump’s first administration, the president's disregard for rule of law, and why Taylor wrote the anonymous New York Times op-ed about internal resistance to the first Trump administration. Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! Spotify | Apple | Google X: @Yascha_Mounk & @JoinPersuasion YouTube: Yascha Mounk, Persuasion LinkedIn: Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yascha Mounk and Thomas Chatterton Williams explore what the summer of 2020 showed about America. Thomas Chatterton Williams is a staff writer at The Atlantic and the author of Losing My Cool, Self-Portrait in Black and White, and Summer of Our Discontent. He is a visiting professor of humanities and senior fellow at the Hannah Arendt Center at Bard College, a 2022 Guggenheim fellow, and a visiting fellow at AEI.  In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Thomas Chatterton Williams discuss why the summer of 2020 played out as it did, the subsequent backlash, and why ideas core to the 2020 protests have now been quietly abandoned. Podcast production by Jack Shields and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! ⁠Spotify⁠ | ⁠Apple⁠ | ⁠Google⁠ X: ⁠@Yascha_Mounk⁠ & ⁠@JoinPersuasion⁠ YouTube: ⁠Yascha Mounk⁠, ⁠Persuasion⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jesse Singal is cohost of the podcast Blocked and Reported, author of the newsletter Singal-Minded, and a contributing writer at The Dispatch. His first book is The Quick Fix: Why Fad Psychology Can’t Cure Our Social Ills, and he is working on his second, which is about the American debate over youth gender medicine. In this week’s episode, Yascha Mounk and Jesse Singal explore whether wokeness is over, the future of the Democratic Party, and why social science is in crisis. Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! Spotify | Apple | Google X: @Yascha_Mounk & @JoinPersuasion YouTube: Yascha Mounk, Persuasion LinkedIn: Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week, Yascha Mounk is joined by Mona Charen, Francis Fukuyama, and Ivan Krastev to discuss how the latest revelations about Epstein will affect Donald Trump, the Trump administration’s war on universities, Volodymyr Zelensky’s bill on anti-corruption agencies, and the recent attacks on the independence of the Fed. Mona Charen, syndicated columnist and author, is Policy Editor of The Bulwark and host of two weekly podcasts: The Mona Charen Show and Just Between Us. Ivan Krastev is the chairman of the Centre for Liberal Strategies and Albert Hirschman Permanent Fellow at the Institute for Human Sciences, IWM Vienna. Francis Fukuyama is the Olivier Nomellini Senior Fellow at Stanford University. His latest book is Liberalism and Its Discontents. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Isaac Saul is a politics reporter and the founder of Tangle, an independent, nonpartisan news outlet. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Isaac Saul discuss the importance of exploring both sides of an argument, whether Donald Trump’s executive overreach amounts to authoritarianism, and how to handle immigration. Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! Spotify | Apple | Google X: @Yascha_Mounk & @JoinPersuasion YouTube: Yascha Mounk, Persuasion LinkedIn: Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yascha Mounk and Dan Williams discuss fake news. Daniel Williams is an Assistant Professor of Philosophy at the University of Sussex. He writes the Conspicuous Cognition newsletter, which brings together philosophical insights and scientific research to examine the forces shaping contemporary society and politics. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Dan Williams explore whether the term misinformation is defined too broadly, how to judge if something is fake news, and what is meant by the “everyone is biased” bias. Podcast production by Jack Shields and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! ⁠Spotify⁠ | ⁠Apple⁠ | ⁠Google⁠ X: ⁠@Yascha_Mounk⁠ & ⁠@JoinPersuasion⁠ YouTube: ⁠Yascha Mounk⁠, ⁠Persuasion⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Steven Teles is a professor of Political Science at Johns Hopkins University. He is the co-author of a number of books, including The Captured Economy, Never Trump: The Revolt of the Conservative Elites, and Prison Break: Why Conservatives Turned Against Mass Incarceration. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Steven Teles discuss what abundance means in practice, how it fits into a broader policy agenda, and the future of U.S. universities. Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! Spotify | Apple | Google X: @Yascha_Mounk & @JoinPersuasion YouTube: Yascha Mounk, Persuasion LinkedIn: Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yascha Mounk and Alex Thompson discuss who knew what—and when. Alex Thompson is a national political correspondent for Axios and the co-author, with Jake Tapper, of Original Sin: President Biden’s Decline, Its Cover-up, and His Disastrous Choice to Run Again.  In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Alex Thompson discuss when Biden’s mental state first became concerning, the cover up, and the motivations of Biden’s team and of other members of the Democratic Party during that period. Podcast production by Jack Shields and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! ⁠Spotify⁠ | ⁠Apple⁠ | ⁠Google⁠ X: ⁠@Yascha_Mounk⁠ & ⁠@JoinPersuasion⁠ YouTube: ⁠Yascha Mounk⁠, ⁠Persuasion⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Martin Wolf is Associate Editor and Chief Economics Commentator at the Financial Times, London. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Martin Wolf discuss Donald Trump’s “big, beautiful bill,” the impact it will have on Trump’s supporters, and whether the United States is facing a looming economic crisis. Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! Spotify | Apple | Google X: @Yascha_Mounk & @JoinPersuasion YouTube: Yascha Mounk, Persuasion LinkedIn: Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dean Spears and Michael Geruso are economists, demographers, and associate professors at the University of Texas at Austin. Their book After the Spike: Population, Progress, and the Case for People is out on July 8, 2025. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk, Dean Spears and Michael Geruso explore whether a higher population really impacts climate change, why more people on the planet means more geniuses, and how we can avoid depopulation. Podcast production by Jack Shields and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! ⁠Spotify⁠ | ⁠Apple⁠ | ⁠Google⁠ X: ⁠@Yascha_Mounk⁠ & ⁠@JoinPersuasion⁠ YouTube: ⁠Yascha Mounk⁠, ⁠Persuasion⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Luke Tryl is the Executive Director of More in Common UK, where he leads the organization’s work on public opinion. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Luke Tryl discuss where Keir Starmer has gone wrong, the reasons behind the rise of Reform UK, and whether time’s up for the Conservative Party. Note: This conversation was recorded on June 6, 2025. Podcast production by Mickey Freeland and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! Spotify | Apple | Google X: @Yascha_Mounk & @JoinPersuasion YouTube: Yascha Mounk, Persuasion LinkedIn: Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yascha Mounk and Irshad Manji also discuss how to have dialogue with ideological opponents. Irshad Manji is the founder of Moral Courage College, which equips people worldwide to turn heated issues into healthy conversations and sustained teamwork. Her latest book is Don’t Label Me: How to Do Diversity Without Inflaming the Culture Wars. In this week’s episode, Yascha Mounk and Irshad Manji discuss how it feels to become a U.S. citizen during turbulent times, how to have conversations about controversial topics without being canceled, and how to resist the temptation of being right about everything. Polarization is at an all-time high. It can feel daunting—perhaps even misguided—to engage in meaningful dialogue with those holding starkly different views. What does it mean to champion pluralism in such a moment? Persuasion’s series on the future of pluralism, generously supported by the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, features longform essays and podcast interviews that make the case for civic dialogue and highlight inspiring examples of it in practice. You can find the full series here. Podcast production by Jack Shields and Leonora Barclay. Connect with us! ⁠Spotify⁠ | ⁠Apple⁠ | ⁠Google⁠ X: ⁠@Yascha_Mounk⁠ & ⁠@JoinPersuasion⁠ YouTube: ⁠Yascha Mounk⁠, ⁠Persuasion⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices